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**Thummim** · 05-10-2001, 10:42 PM

Stranger, has it ever occured to you as it has to me, that underneath the faith of Xtianity is an innocent JEW who was murdered by gentiles? One more JEW to add to the millions already murdered. Imagine thinking that your purpose in life was to give hope to your brethren and even spend your life doing it. Now imagine some faith not yours using your life to assault the people you love enough to die for, and oppressing them into their graves unmercifully. You could hate this faith with all your heart and be unable to forgive yourself for the evil you caused without any intent on your part. You have no way of governing what is written about you. If you could somehow see what your life brought to those you love, wouldn't you be in agony over it? Could such a person ever forgive himself? It's the curse of the righteous to always hold themselves accountable. Remember, it's the unrighteous who can leave their guilt behind. I wonder if he might choose to really make of himself a sin offering? That is a whole burnt offering. Since the xtians think of themselves as the body of christ and no such sin offering has occured yet, wouldn't all xtians be invited to the atonement for having made the JEWish people guilty for their name, which may even be as I believe, the name of their own Eloheem. YHWH never gave his name to his people to be their curse. Can you really believe that the JEWish people who won't even allow themselves to use the name of YHWH, would have written the sacred name in its entirety within the pages of the tanakh? Remember that one of the ten mitzvot is not to misuse the sacred name. All the xtians would have to do is somehow get their messiah to forgive himself or to forgive those who bound themselves to him for their part in the slaughter of his own people. Then, perhaps this was YHWH's plan all along. ....Michael

**Spying** · 05-11-2001, 07:44 AM

His Work!

Hi Stranger,

(I actually made this post for another thread, but it will work here also)I, too, am presently pressed for the place to write and reply as I ought so you need not apologize to me. I am behind in writing not only to you but also to Sandy and Thummim. Usually, I depend upon the Sabbath to help me catch up, but that probably won't happen this weekend. I will be in Nashville.

I feel compelled to draw your attention to a list of scriptures about work for you. I am going to first give this list to you without commentary, ha, which is hard for me to do. Maybe you will be moved to see some of the things that I think I see:

Exod 34:10
10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of (the) YAHWEH: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee. (KJV)

Eccl 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that ELOHIM maketh from the beginning to the end. (KJV)

Eccl 3:17
17 I said in mine heart, ELOHIM shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. (KJV)

Isa 61:8-11
8 For I (the) YAHWEH love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which (the) YAHWEH hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in (the) YAHWEH, my soul shall be joyful in my ELOHIM; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the ADONAI ELOHIM will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. (KJV)

1 Chr 17:11-14
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. (KJV)

Isa 64:8
8 But now, O YAHWEH, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. (KJV)

Isa 19:22-25
22 And (the) YAHWEH shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to (the) YAHWEH, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom (the) YAHWEH of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.(KJV)

Isa 5:11-13
11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of (the) YAHWEH, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. (KJV)

Isa 10:23
23 For the ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. (KJV)

Isa 28:21-22
21 For (the) YAHWEH shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.(KJV)

Isa 29:14
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. (KJV)

John 4:34
34 Yahushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (KJV)

John 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (KJV)

John 19:30
30 When Yahushua therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (KJV)

Acts 13:41-42
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. (KJV)

Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahushua unto good works, which ELOHIM hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (KJV)

Jer 17:21-27
21 Thus saith (the) YAHWEH; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith (the) YAHWEH, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.
26 And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of (the) YAHWEH.
27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. (KJV)

1 Pet 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of ELOHIM: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of ELOHIM?(KJV)

Have a good Sabbath Day!

Sincerely, Spying

**Stranger** · 05-12-2001, 11:31 AM

I'm sorry...

Shabbat Shalom Michael,

I must confess that I do not believe that the NT is narrating the true facts on the life of the historical Jew that was used to create Christianity. Nobody knows in Hebrew what the real name of this young Jewish person was. I hate to incriminate the wrong person and I hate to think that maybe I used YHWH's name in vain by naming Yahushua in all this. I feel awfully guilty of having done it. I trust that Yahweh will forgive me. I didn't mean to offend him personally. So I will stick to the Greek names of Jesus and Christ from now on. The early church fathers made Christ into a name, too. I will correct myself from now on. So thank you, Michael. I appreciate your comments. I agree with you. I don’t believe that a young Jewish wannabe messiah would go about damning the Jews the way the Greek Iesous, English/Latin Jesus did.

I strongly believe that the NT is a fantasy based on some of the life and teaching of a fine young Jewish man. In fact, I cannot possibly believe that any Jew would really get away calling his fellow Jews all kinds of nasty names like Jesus did and still be alive for too long. If this young man really existed he was probably a HaTorah observant Jew who thought to be the anointed one like so many others in his days, but things didn't work for him and he was killed in unusual circumstances. The story of his real life was made up to a great extent. Paul got to know a lot about the historical Jew whom he named Iesous and came up with the Christian religion. He is stating that in his own letters. He says that his stuff was not something that he learned from men like the Apostles did, but that he got all that from visions, dreams, trances, and so on.

**Stranger** · 05-12-2001, 11:33 AM

Shabbat Shalom Spying,

I'm not sure if I'll say it right, but every time that I read your messages I get the impression that you are sneering at the Sacred Name. If I remember correctly you said you do it because of your affection to the KJV that uses "The" LORD instead of plain YHWH (or Yahweh if we were to transliterate.) It must be a deeply rooted generic affection to the Heathen Baal ("Lord") from some of our ancestors that forces some of us to act the way we do.

Anyway, going back to your comments. I can see your point of saying that Yahweh is still doing some work. But you must admit that Paul confirmed the fact that he finished or completed the "work" that Christ started. He had all kinds of proofs. So when Jesus said, "it is finished" it was only wishful thinking he really didn't complete anything. This is thoroughly documented by Paul. I posted my comments in a previous message in this forum. So it seems that a lot of people in the NT is completing the work started by someone else. I don't think that Jesus completed anything specific. He keeps the nature of "his father's work" a secret. According to the records I presented in this thread I can also assert that Jesus "work" is looking forward to the day that he will have the heads of the Jews chopped off and have the Jews burning in sulfur and brimstone forever. But even this is not finished until we see Sweet Jesus smiling face watching the Jews burning in Hell. So when he says that everything is "finished" do you mean that he accomplished that, too? Funny thing is that Jesus never ever had words of hope and consolation for the Jews, but only damnation. Your thread of verses on "work" from the OT may not have any connection with what Jesus was talking about. He never specified what kind of work was he talking about. I suspect that when Jesus Christ said, "it is finished" he gave up on his bit to be used by the Almighty in a great way to set himself as a king of the Jews. "It is finished" to me sounds more like, "I'm finished" than anything else. After his death All his disciples went back to their usual place of business and forgot all about Jesus. Christ reply to Pontius' query on whether he was the king of the Jews he said, "it is like you say." I wish to hear a more positive and more personal statement from a Jewish messiah.

Jesus sweated blood interceding for himself before the Most High. There is not one shred of evidence that he ever prayed in his final hour for the Jews that he came to save. He only prayed forgiveness for the Roman soldiers that nailed him to the cross, not for the Jews whom he called murderers and damned them to Hell. He even dared them to escape from it. I don’t think that Christ accomplished anything. His greatest "work" is one of the major blunders in history that had millions of Jews killed because of the way he "finished his work." I can understand that if you are making a living out of Christianity you must be now in a desperate gasping for making any sense out of what kind of "work" Jesus did.

**Thummim** · 05-13-2001, 08:00 AM

....Stranger, it amazes me that our beliefs parallel so tightly. I once thought I was alone in my concerns. Now I know that we are an army fighting for the JEWish people. May the truth always be on our side. Shalom, ....Michael

**Spying** · 05-15-2001, 07:32 AM

His Strange Work!

Hi Stranger,

Thank you, I did have a remarkable Sabbath and weekend. I spent the Sabbath in conference with other believers in Nashville. The Conference was sponsored and hosted by a minister of the True Jesus Church. The True Jesus Church was established by Messiah in mainland China in the earth 20th Century. The conference was called to discuss the symbolism surrounding Noah's Ark. At this conference, I used the Sacred Names in my speech because there were believers attending who also use the Sacred Names. You know my posting history, how I began posting on the EliYah Forum using the common names. You can go to and read our website where we still use the common names. Personally, my speech is following the pattern of my writing. Gradually, I am being moved to use the Sacred Names in my speech, but I still slip up and use the common names. I do not look upon it the same as you, but I am moving in your direction. My practice is this: Whenever I am in the presence of someone like yourself, I use the Sacred Names not to offend them. When I am with an Orthodox Jew, I use HaShem for the same reason. In my writings I quote from the King James Version, and I began putting the "the" in parenthesis as an accommodation to Sandy; eventhough, she does not recognize it as such. I don't see how I can just take the "the" out. If I did, then it would not be the Kings James Version.

Stranger, Messiah nowhere says that he finished "everything" as you indicate above. Messiah is very specific. John uses a third person singular, perfect indicative passive form of the verb "teleo" to translate what Messiah did say. So, "he, she, or it" is indeed completed or finished. Messiah does not say which one it is. It could be "he" is finished. Note also that the verb is passive, and that the tense is perfect. I know for a fact that everything was not completed or fulfilled with the death of Messiah. If Messiah meant to indicate "everything" was fulfilled, then a plural form of "teleo" would have been used. So, it would behoove all of us to indeed ask: Who or what is finished at the receiving of the vinegar?

Indeed, Messiah had a certain sense about himself and his work. He knew that he had been sent to accomplish a work at a specific time. At the Passover supper with his disciples, Messiah stated that this individual work had been successfully completed:

John 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (KJV)

So, if Messiah's work had been fully discharged by himself in an active sense prior to the Cross, then it is the work of someone else which is being completed through the Cross. I have a sense that the work completed is the strange work of Isaiah 28:

Isa 28:21-22
21 For (the) YAHWEH shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from (the) ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.(KJV)

Messiah did say:

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.(KJV)

If all men were somehow crucified with Messiah (joined to Messiah) as the Apostle Paul does indicate, then a consumptive end of all mankind did occur at the Cross. I know, Stranger, that would be quite strange, wouldn't it?

Sincerely, Spying

**Stranger** · 05-15-2001, 05:08 PM

Spying... You seem to ignore the documented evidence on JC.

If all men were somehow crucified with Messiah (joined to Messiah) as the Apostle Paul does indicate, then a consumptive end of all mankind did occur at the Cross. I know, Stranger, that would be quite strange, wouldn't it?

Absolutely! I would say weird, too! You seem to ignore the character reference that I put together on Jesus Christ. I cannot possibly ignore it. I don't believe that Jesus Christ fits the shoe of an honest wannabe messiah. I believe that Saint Paul manipulated the original character's life records to make it fit into his newly created Christian religion. The more I study the NT the more convinced I am.

**Stranger** · 05-17-2001, 04:27 PM

Spying, I'm still thinking about you...

Spying, I’ve been thinking about your coolness as a Christian. I’m really happy that we are not living in the Middle Ages when things got real bad with any truth finder. Judging by your cold answers about the virtues of Christianity you are telling me a lot about yourself. You seem to carry a big stick behind that smile. If we were living in a Christian dominated world you would put me to the torch without any hesitation. You would do it gladly “following in the footsteps of the master” because the real Jesus Christ that you worship is the one that will have you chop the heads of the Jews that did not want to have him for a king. Then you, Jesus Christ, Paul, and all the good Christians would enjoy watching the Jews and everybody else burning eternally in a sulfur and brimstone Hell that was prepared for the Jews’ father, the Devil and his angels. That is the place that Jesus Christ dared the Jews to escape from. I wonder what is that he had in mind to do them if they were to escape. This is really what Christianity is all about. It is truly an anti-Semitic organization operating in the “spiritual” (i.e. religious) world in the last 2000 years. It was concocted by Saint Paul and he turned against his own blood relatives, the Jews, simply because they didn’t go along with his new religion.

**Thummim** · 05-17-2001, 08:13 PM

Stranger, I really like spying. I think that you're being a little hard on him. After all, he's trying to save us from hell. Unfortunatly, this is a part of his faith. Coming from a (*GD forgive me*), christian backgrown, I know a little of his concerns. He really cares about us. To escape christianity, you have to love something more than yourself. The same hell that he is trying to save us from, would become his own hell if he turned away from his faith. It takes many years of internal conflict to gain a victory in this battle. It leaves your soul bleeding profusely when you fight this fight. You have to stand with your feet in the air for having no place to put them during your time in the middle ground of the battle. If you can gain the strength to curse your own soul for what you believe in and fight the fight long enough, you gain a victory. Still it isn't over as you know. I can see that you are still in the puking stage of your renewal. I puked out christianity from my soul for years. It's a very unclean feeling to realize what you were a part of, when you let (jesus) be your god. You undoubtably know what I'm talking about. Spying doesn't. He still loves one JEW (not a very good one) more than the millions of others. I repeat, Spying is a good guy. He is just misdirected. After all, this is his site and he lets us post here what we feel inside our hearts. This is a christian who lets us post very anti-christian feelings on his site. He wouldn't let us do that if he didn't care about us. He doesn't understand that it is christianities sins that (jesus) died from, and not for.
....Michael

**Spying** · 05-18-2001, 07:32 AM

Spontaneous Combustion!

Hi Stranger,

Allow me to give you a glimpse into what I believe. This world died in Messiah according to the working of the Law (i.e. the sacrificial system, Messiah died according to the Scriptures-1 Corinthians 15:3). So, Messiah's dead body comprises all flesh. At some point prior to this death, Messiah's physical body hanging on the Cross began to represent all of mankind. When Messiah breathed his last with a great shout, his breath poured out over his body. Of course, when you think like I do, you know that this represents the pouring out of the spirit upon all of mankind as prophesied by Joel. This giving of the spirit to all flesh occurs in stages as the Apostle Paul does plainly tell everyone in 1 Corinthians 15. Whenever someone dies, scripture indicates that the spirit must go back to the one who gave it:

Eccl 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto ELOHIM who gave it. (KJV)

So, in a fundamental sense, this is what occurred through the Cross: Messiah was able through the Cross to take vengeance upon and thereby kill all of mankind. When he died, we all died. When he breathed his last, it was our last breath. Where did all this breath or spirit go? It must go back to the one who gave it according to the scripture, and Stranger, who do you think this very one "who gave it" may be? You guessed it. It must go back to the very ELOHIM who gave it in the first place. YAHWEH emptied HIS spirit into Adam. Messiah gathered all that spirit through the Cross. Now, all the spirit must go back to YAHWEH. See, the amazing things that open up to you when you gain a glimpse into the secret work of Messiah. All the spirit came back to Messiah in the grave. He is the head of the body. Messiah is the resurrected YAHWEH.

Now, Messiah is fully able, according to the finishing of his work, to give his own spirit to his own body. This spirit is first given to the Elect, and I am one of the Elect, and I am not alone. Messiah's spirit is also given to many others. I happen to believe that you and Thummim and Sandy and EliYAH and Seventh Angel and Simpleman and DeAnna and Dorota and Sis and many others are all part of the Elect. We are just beginning to be invigorated. We really don't have our bearings yet, but we are getting there. There is an awakening and a learning process that we must experience. We are yawning and stretching right now. Gradually, the body of mankind begins to heat up because of our activity. Eventually, the whole body will be instantaneously transformed into a consuming fire. Spontaneous combustion is what I am talking about.

Now, I have told what is going to happen. If you are part of the Elect, you will know that this is your destiny as YAHWEH.

Have a good Sabbath, Stranger.

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 05-18-2001, 08:04 AM

Please cancel my membership.

...Spying, I'm not allowed to bow to an idol of human flesh, even if someone else is doing the bowing for me. How do I get out of this club? ....Michael

**Stranger** · 05-19-2001, 11:37 AM

Spying, you do a lot of wishful thinking...

Shalom Spying,

I admire your sticking to what you believe in spite of all the glitches. Your religion is fully bugged and you know it. Yours is a philosophy of life based on assumptions, not one bit different from Islam or Buddhism. I cannot use the Scriptures that Jesus himself used to document any CLAIM to any salvation. This guy Jesus was probably a good HaTorah observant Jew much different from what they made him to be. Paul used him to base the Christian faith that he founded. After that everybody jumped on the wagon. Many gospels were written of which only 4 were accepted for mystic reasons. They all contradict themselves and you want me to believe what they say. This concept of yours that the world died at the cross and so on is so Heathen. I’m surprised that you still defend such theories as true. Then, again, if you are into this for the bread on your table, I can understand.

I agree with Micheal. You may be a good guy in spite of being a Christian. You are letting me post in this forum knowing that I don’t agree with you. Eliyah had a phobic fear that I would corrupt some visitors to his forum because he had no answer to my questions. The answers he was giving me were all based of assumptions and assertions of what the truth ought to be. Both of you seem to either ignore the “difficulties” (i.e. contradictions in the NT) or keep accepting them as intelligent inspired statements from the Almighty and in doing so you explain them away. I am shocked to believe that I was deceived by Christianity for so many years. You cannot say that I apostatized I believe that I'm in a teshuvah process going back to the old ways...

Jeremiah 6:16 * This is what Yahweh says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls...'

**Spying** · 05-21-2001, 07:20 AM

Sorry!

Hi Thummin,

I am sorry if I have given you offence.

When I first looked at your reply, this is the scripture that came to mind:

Isa 45:22-25
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am ELOHIM, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in (the) YAHWEH have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In (the) YAHWEH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. (KJV)

Then, I remembered that Paul quoted this scripture in the New Testament:

Rom 14:7-13
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Sovereign; and whether we die, we die unto the Sovereign: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Sovereign's.
9 For to this end Messiah both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Sovereign both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Messiah.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the YAHWEH, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to ELOHIM.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to ELOHIM.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. (KJV)

Please forgive me if I have through my teaching done so to you?

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 05-21-2001, 10:10 AM

Different concerns

...Spying, I have nothing to accuse you of. My battle is to stem the assault upon the JEWish people and see that they are all attached to their Eloheem. I enjoy your post's, even when I don't agree with them. (jesus) is out to save the world, and I, only the house of YHWH. I do not believe in the condemnation of the world. The assault upon the JEWish people is evident. This is where my battle is fought. ....Michael

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Is There A Cover Up In Here???

Is There A Cover Up In Here???

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