New to the board...

[nosaer28]

I was surfing the internet and came across this board. Very interesting.

Obviously, I haven't read all the threads, but what I have read I have found to be very engaging. A little about myself...I am 28 years old and I currently do not attend church. I grew up in a Mormon household but became disillusioned with the beliefs and practices of that faith and I have been doing research into other faiths. However, I think religion in general is ultimately a bad thing. Belief in a God is, at its very foundation, irrational in my view and I would like to hear why any of you may think otherwise. I don't want to pick a fight, per se, but I would like to hear the reasons each of you have for your particular beliefs. Arguing for or against a belief in God will eventually lead nowhere...as I can no more prove God cannot exist than you can prove that he does. In my opinion, a belief in a supernatural creator of the universe is far more interesting to me when people explore reasons people have for faith, as opposed to the validity of the particular beliefs themselves. I think Spying and LucySmith would be interesting to engage in this conversation.

Anyway, if anybody is willing to engage, I would be willing to discuss.

- Nosaer

[LucySmith]

hello

nosaer28




and i totally agree with you..... religion stinks....
all religion [that is] stinketh and the reason is ....


we can smell it's carnality and vanity.- It reeks of death and destroys people.

u cannot pick ''a fight with me'' on this issue. cuz i agree.

what has happened to u is, your nose is beginning to work, and when your nose works your mind soon follows

I am so glad u r AN ''EX''.
I am an ''EX'' too.

2 x's 2 gether

belief in God is a bad thing......i agree.... for GOD OF 'THE CHURCH' is not the ELOHIM of the Word.

you just have to meet the RIGHT ''GOD'' UPFRONT, PERSONAL AND VERY VERY INTIMATE .
How are u going to do that?

[nosaer28]

Thanks for the reply Lucy....I thought we might agree on that topic. By the way, your screen name...is that really your name or is it in reference to a significant woman in Mormon history? Very clever.

However, I am talking about the belief in God in general. We can agree that the mechanism of religion has its fair share of problems. What about that of God (ELOHIM, Yaweh, Zues, Thor, Posiedon, etc...) himself? What is the rationality of that belief?

Again, the foundation of those beliefs, the rationality, the reasons...are all very intriguing to me. I would like to hear yours.

[LucySmith]

hello
yikes....and puke.... i gotta change my name then....

By the way, your screen name...is that really your name or is it in reference to a significant woman in Mormon history? Very clever.

puke puke.retching....sick.


my real name is
alexandra rachel mcshane....

lucy was my grandmothers name......
just call me lucy.
i never liked by grandmother but i do like her name. She was a christian scientist and took me to their meetings went i was small. She lived to 84 yrs and as long as i can remember she never visited a doctor....she and my aunty had an ''amazing record'' for their creed. Religion does work that is why so many have it. It is a mystery of iniquity~!
My family went to an employees of ours new home for a visit last night and she has a room set aside to worship a woman with an elephant trunk's nose. They are Hindus i think....my daughter saw this prayer room and said ''Mum that religion works for them'' and i said ''Yep satan makes sure that it does.''
so we thought about this and i said ''it is called a strong delusion.''

http://www.ritilan.com/archives/images/2004/09/29/092904-Ganesha.PNG

http://www.antichurch.org.uk/HallOfShame.htm

what is the difference?
none for both are man made and called BABYLON, AND people flock into them all, loving them and admiring them.
--------------------------------------------------

I live in Queensland Australia... so i dont get into USA religious creeds often, nor do i know any mormons., so I am no relation to usa Lucy smith THANK GOD FOR HIS MERCY................................ i escaped.

well it seems to me that this STRONG DELUSION is sent from the creator of all things to ''the wicked''.
therefore
it is ''the wicked'' that worship all these creeds, sects and gods of many shades.

the secret is the be drawn to the REAL FATHER, and discover HIS SECRETS.
HIS SECRETS, show a person how to be free.
meaning
escaping from
the laws of sin and death.

[LucySmith]

to the halls of shame

BTW

''honest frank'' wrote this letter regarding his site @

http://www.antichurch.org.uk/HallOfShame.htm

"Hi,

This letter is to inform you of a new church project.
Simply put, it aims to expose the stupidity and emptiness of the British church today.
Your church is one of the first to be marked out for attention.
As a church that is leading people straight to hell, I am writing to congratulate you for your service to the wicked one in helping to achieve this aim.

Imagine it: for every man, woman or child that visits your church, you have the opportunity to encourage them in the ways of self-delusion and presumption, until they finally drop into hell.
By promoting your false gospel and DIY salvation, the devil already has you in the palm of his hand.
What a mighty service you are continuing to perform!

To encourage you further in your endeavours, I am giving you the opportunity to submit a short description of the futility of your church, to be displayed on the Anti-Church website.
This will describe the total uselessness of attending it, especially when it comes to matters of salvation.
Your church will be entered into the "Church Hall of Shame" and by clicking on it, a not-so-complimentary photograph will be displayed.
Of course, by portraying your church in such an extreme (although true) manner, people will most likely disagree and scoff at it, especially your own congregation, thus confirming them in their wicked ways.

The best thing would be for your church to be burnt down.
Too long have you foisted your wretched religion on the British people.
However, as this is unlikely to occur, having your church featured in the Hall of Shame is a step in the right direction.
Of course, if you decide not to take part, there is always the chance that someone will submit your church anyway.
This has already happened for quite a few churches.
So act fast, to get your self-condemnatory description featured today.


''honestfrank''...author.

[LucySmith]

WHAT IS wrong?

most all people ''see'' Yeshua, thru the ''eyes'' of their church.
Very few ''see'' Yeshua with anointed eyes.....that is why the church as such is considered by Messiah to be wretched, naked and blind [LAODICEA] and we are asked to get ''eye salve''.

There is NOTHING wrong with CHRISTianity, its CHURCHianity that contains the harlot's hell.
Sit in her pews and die.

if u look at the pics of some of these ''halls of shame'' the whole structure is twisted....the people within are twisted too.
like crooked trees they grow up deformed.


sigh.

[nosaer28]

There is NOTHING wrong with CHRISTianity, its CHURCHianity that contains the harlot's hell.
Sit in her pews and die.

There's nothing wrong with Christianity?

Let me ask you this...do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, why? Is it because you believe Christ to be your savior, social good Christianity does, etc...? What proof do you have of this?

It is interesting to me that you and Spying love to quote scripture, considering the fantastic inconsistencies that they have. The Old Testament pretty much speaks for itself. It is apparently obvious that the God of the Old Testament is probably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak, a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. You and Spying seem to be desensitized to his horror.

So, maybe it is better to look at the New Testament. What exactly can we deduce from this text? How reliable is it as a guide to how Jesus lived his life? Take the 4 Gospels. All were written long after the death of Jesus, and also after the epistles of Paul, which mention almost none of the alleged facts of Jesus's life. All were then copied and re-copied, through many different fallible scribes who, in any case, had their own religious agendas.

Take Jesus' birth in Bethlehem followed by Herod's massacre of the innocents. When the Gospels were written, many years after Jesus's death, nobody knew where he was born. However, Old Testament prophecy (Micah 5:2) had led the Jews to expect the long awaited Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. In light of this prophecy, John's gospels specifically remarks that his followers were surprised that he was not born in Bethlehem: "Others said, This is the Christ. But Some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?"

Regardless, Matthew and Luke handle the problem differently, by deciding that Jesus must have been born in Bethlehem after all. But they get him there by different routes....Matthew has Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem all along, moving the Nazareth only long after the birth of Jesus, on their return from Egypt where they fled from King Herod and the massacre of the innocents. Luke, on the other hand, acknowledges that Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth before Jesus was born.

The simple truth of the matter is Matthew and Luke are the only two evangelists who treat the birth of Jesus at all...and they have wild inconsistencies when compared against each other. Parts of the legend...including the star in the East, the virgin birth, the veneration of the baby by Kings, the miracles, the execution, the resurrection and ascension are borrowed - every last one of them - from other religions already in existence in the Mediterranean and Near East region. Tom Flynn (the editor of Free Inquiry) suggests that Matthew's desire to fulfill messianic prophecies (descent from David, birth of Bethlehem) for the benefit of Jewish readers came into headlong collision with Luke's desire to adapt Christianity for the Gentiles, and hence to press the familiar hot buttons of Pagan Hellenistic religions (virgin birth, worship by Kings, etc..). The resulting contradictions are glaring, but consistently overlooked by the faithful...including yourself.

[LucySmith]

the carnal mind shall always have problems with the bible.

but


the 'mind of Christ' in a person has none.

[nosaer28]

the carnal mind shall always have problems with the bible.

but


the 'mind of Christ' in a person has none.

Interesting. Is it really this trivially easy to discredit the Bible? Do you really have nothing more to say? How about giving an intellectually coherent response to what I just said instead of just making a tacit claim that has absolutely no bearing on the conversation. I really did expect more from you and others considering the pasts posts you guys write. I almost feel like this isn't even a challenge.

Contrary to what you may think, I would be completely open to the idea of opening my 'mind in Christ' if only you could give me a good reason as to why having a 'mind in Christ' is even plausible.


Where is Spying in all this? He seems to think they have a monopoly on the truth in these matters. If anything, his silence and your incoherent response gives me more reason to accept the delusional explanation as to why you believe the way you do.

Please, I would really like to hear an intelligent and rational response from either one of you.

[LucySmith]

Spying is at ministry on other forums.
He excells in this mighty work of
''Life now''.
perhaps he may take the time with you, should he have any to spare.

and

as for me,
well the bible says in 2 Corn 4 v 3

1] ''So if the Good News that we tell others is covered with a veil, it is hidden from those who are dying''
2] '' If, however, the meaning of our Good News has been veiled, the veil has been on the hearts of those who are on the way to perdition''
3] ''But if our gospel is hid, it is hid to them that are lost''

SO~!~!~
no, i have nothing more to add as i cannot give an intelligent nor rational response to someone the Gospel is ''veiled too''.

[nosaer28]

Look, I don't want to come across as rash or mean. I simply want to know why you believe what you do.

I would think that this would be easy for you, especially considering that ELOHIM is on your side. You must be able to do this...you must have reasons for what you believe.

We as humans seek patterns and explanations for things that we do not understand. One cannot try to rationalize a particular belief and then say that rationalization is beyond reason. This is the chief argument I have with any flavor of religious belief. In the end, rationality has to be taken out of the worldview and an almost cultic fascination with "Faith" has to step in. I'm sorry, but "Faith" is nothing more than the license people give themselves to believe in something when all reasons fail.

I think it would be a good excercise for you to sit down and ponder over your particular beliefs about the supernatural. Ponder on the rational reasons you have for your beliefs. Ask tough questions and do an honest intellectual inquiry. Not just with religion...but with everything...politics, sociology, UFO's, ghosts...anything. I gaurantee you, it is exceptionally liberating to know what you don't know.

[Spying]

Knowing Know!

Hi Nosy,

How you doing? Welcome to this forum.

I do what I do because I have a great desire to please YAHWEH Messiah Yahushua and make HIM happy. I also am looking for a reward, a pay day so to speak. We can either work for life or death. I want to live so I work to put death to death while I have life in order that I might live life not only for myself but for others also.

You should pay close attention to Lucy. She has Her act together, and She is one of the few people in the world that can help you from blindly falling into your grave. Do you have any expectation of not meekly falling into your grave?

Sincerely, Ab

[nosaer28]

Hows it going Spying....

About your post...

I do what I do because I have a great desire to please YAHWEH Messiah Yahushua and make HIM happy. I also am looking for a reward, a pay day so to speak.

How do you please YAHWEH Messiah Yahushua? What does he want? How do you know what he wants? How do you know that what you are doing is the right thing? Your rationale would be interesting to me.

Also, It is interesting to me that you are looking for a "pay day so to speak". Is this really the reason you do what you do...because you are looking for a reward? I think it was Einstein that said:

"Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death"

I agree with this statement and I think the world would be much better off if people were willing to help each other out of genuine concern as opposed to getting a reward based on a belief in blind dogmatism.

We can either work for life or death. I want to live so I work to put death to death while I have life in order that I might live life not only for myself but for others also.

I actually like that you said that. Life is short, lets appreciate it for what it is. I agree with you, lets work for life. Let's not bother ourselves with the incoherencies of the afterlife. Let's deal with the here and now.

[nosaer28]

AB....

Do you have any expectation of not meekly falling into your grave?

What do you mean?

[Spying]

Life Is Life!

Hi Nosy,

You betray your expectation for yourself through this statement:

Life is short, lets appreciate it for what it is. I agree with you, lets work for life.

Obviously, you are not planning to work for very long, are you? Do you really have a sense of dedication about working for life? If so, then why do you condemn yourself to failure by confessing that life is short?

You have absolutely no confidence in yourself before YAHWEH, do you? You don't realize it, I mean Lucy has already attempted to tell you, but up till now, you have been very diligently working for your reward, a pay check for your deeds, and that reward is death. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Life, however, can be permanently extended though repentance and by working for a vastly different paycheck:

Ezekiel 18:23
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith ADONAI YAHWEH: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Working for life first requires repentance, and then a certain walk and work. Most are quite content with falling into their graves.

I, however, will take you at your word. I am impressed that you would take the time to read our thread concerning John. Did you learn anything? Why then do you still confess the dogma that life is short?

Sincerely, Ab