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A casual look at Paul's credentials…

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  • A casual look at Paul's credentials…

    It seems that Christians don't care much for human life. Paul killed one of the most famous deacons in early Christian history and nobody is bothered. It seems that killing anyone for religious reasons can be very easily forgotten if the killer becomes a Christian. Here we have Paul the Pharisee of Pharisees working as a hit man for the ruling Sadducee party. This in itself is very odd to swallow. The Pharisees didn't get along with the Sadducees. Maybe Paul used to be a Pharisee to the Pharisee and a Sadducee to the Sadducees… That must explain it!

    Paul was actually casting his vote of approval to have Stephen stoned to death and he was also making all the necessary arrangements to expedite the process. He was a notorious hit man for the temple authorities. He didn't seem to have had any scrupulous to sneak into any foreign country to kidnap and bring to Jerusalem any Jew he didn’t like, either.

    Acts 26:9 (NIV) "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
    10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put MANY of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.
    11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.

    It is impossible to believe that Paul suffered more than any of the people that he persecuted. I just can’t stop thinking of the many broken homes, and the many dead husbands that were no longer providing for the basic needs of the children. Who knows how many hungry children went on begging on the streets of Jerusalem because Paul had MANY righteous parents killed, beside Stephen.

    Paul is not writing a single word of grief about being a killer in the past. Anything that Paul did before was in ignorance, he says. As a Pharisee, he probably cast a stone or two, too. Although, I don't believe that the image that is given in the NT about the Pharisees is a truthful one. Paul never said to cast any stone, but he did make all the necessary arrangements so the stoners would do the killing of the righteous ones more efficiently.

    Paul brags in his testimony to King Agrippa that he really put MANY righteous people to death. I wonder if any Christian ever stops to question Paul’s cold bloody testimony to King Agrippa. I cannot detect a trace of regret, remorse or grief here or anywhere else in the NT about all those hideous crimes that Paul did against the righteous Jews that he had killed. So if the Almighty forgave Paul, doesn’t Paul need to express a little remorse of what he was doing before? All that Paul seems to say is, "Hey, I didn't know what I was doing" or "I did it in ignorance. So I'm excused. Isn't grace wonderful?"

    To top it all we have Paul’s own statement that he is the one actually completing the dose of suffering levied on Jesus to do his “redemptive” work. Although nowhere in the Scriptures is stated that there is a measure of pain and suffering that the messiah has to go through to secure the redemption for anyone. Actually the Scriptures say all the opposite. They say that nobody can secure the redemption for his brother at any price.

    Psalms 49:7 * No man can redeem the life of another or give to Elohim a ransom for him--
    8 the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough.

    According to Paul he says Jesus measure of suffering was truncated. In fact, Even Pontius was surprised to learn that Jesus died so quickly on the “cross.” He knew about crucifixions and he was left speechless that Jesus died so quickly. He couldn't believe it!. So he asked the Centurion if it was true that Jesus is dead already. Judging by all the chit-chat that Jesus had with everybody around himself while on the cross he only complained of thirst. This is what stubborn documented evidence sheds.

    Mark 15:43 (NIV) Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body.
    44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died.

    Paul is drawing a lot of attention to himself as a sufferer for the Christian cause. Although, he is not on record ever expressing any regret for all the pain and suffering to the many children whom he left orphan, and also the many helpless widows of the righteous men that he helped to put to death. We don't know what kind of reparation he made to all the innocent victims of his killing rampage so the Christians could learn a lesson on how to imitate Paul. Paul is telling all the Christians that they should imitate him. If that is the case then anyone having participated actively in the "final solution of freeing the world of all the Jews" and who later became a "born again" Christian can excuse himself without any apology or reparation to any Jew because he was doing it in ignorance.

    Paul never seemed to have made any formal reparation to the widow of Stephen and his children. I only wonder how many members in Stephen's family were affected by Paul's vicious conduct. A deacon like Stephen is a "family man of one wife and children." He must have ruled his household in an exemplary manner in order to qualify as a deacon, and so on. So it is obvious that Paul left MANY orphan children in his killing rampage. Hopefully Stephen's widow was not too young. Paul has some words of instruction for the MANY widows that he left behind in his ignorance, too. He is not teaching any reparation here, either. Only "saving" grace.

    1 Timthy 3:12 (NIV) A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

    1 Timothy 5:11 (NIV) As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
    12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
    13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.

    Paul is saying that whatever he did in his Pharisee days that he thought to be worth anything now it is cow manure to him. So is probably any credit that Paul scored in doing Stephen's death and the MANY other righteous people that he dragged to prison for punishment and death. There is not one single statement in the NT saying that Paul is SORRY or that he has any remorse for having done any of that. I wish to see one single statement of remorse. Paul is simply making statements that whatever he did before was bull's manure. If I may paraphrase Paul he is simply saying that in the past he did a lot of killing activity, but now he is a hand picked man for this "labor of love." So Paul lets bygones be bygones, no sense in crying over spilled milk, amazing grace how sweet it sounds, and so on. So let's pretend that there was no "holocaust."

    Phillipians 3:8 (KJV) Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] DUNG, that I may win Christ. --- NOTE: The words in brackets are not in the mss!

    It all goes well with Paul's idea of grace. Hey, but this is not the standard that Paul is imposing on others.

    1 Timothy 3:7 (NIV) He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
    8 Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.
    9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.
    10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

    All these rules didn’t exist before Paul put together Christianity. He actually made up all these rules himself.

    Galatians 1:18 (NIV) Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
    19 I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.
    20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
    21 Later I went to Syria and Cilicia.
    22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
    23 They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."
    24 And they praised God because of me.

    Paul's reputation is not too flattering, except when Paul sets the record straight for himself. Good thing that he is telling us that he is not lying so we can believe him. Anyway, who said that Paul was forgiven? Did I missed Judgment Day? According to HaTorah, the ONLY way to make atonement for the shedding of innocent blood is by shedding the blood of the murderer. Paul doesn’t make any comment about it in relation to his own testimony. If the Nuremberg trials were conducted according to the Christian standard set by Paul no Nazi would be found guilty of killing any Jew because they all claimed to have done it in ignorance following orders. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Numbers 35:33 * "`Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it.
    "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

  • #2
    I must add some more information on Paul. Since Jesus didn’t seem to have completed the measure of suffering in his own body required to secure salvation for everybody, Paul jumps into the scene saying that Jesus didn’t finish his redemptive work and that he has to do it. He claims to have been crucified along with Jesus, and that he finished in his body whatever suffering Jesus didn’t do, and that he was doing it “for the church sake,” and so on. In fact, Paul is the first human being in recorded history to claim the “stigmata” in his own body. So without Paul’s "suffering" Christianity would be incomplete from the very start.

    Hebrews 5:7 (NIV) During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

    Galatians 2:20 (NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    Colossians 1:24 (NIV) Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

    Galatians 6:17 (NIV) Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

    From poor Judas we shift our attention to slick Paul. Paul seemed to have some “inside” information about the measure of Jesus’ suffering because he knew that whatever Jesus suffered wasn’t enough. Paul had Stephen and MANY others killed, he also dragged a lot of people to prison. So Paul inflicted a lot of pain and suffering on the righteous Jews while the only serious “sin” credited to Judas was to betray a self-proclaimed messiah.
    Last edited by Stranger; 04-02-2001, 06:33 PM.
    "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ


    • #3
      Where did Paul go After his encounter on the road to Damascus and who did he see?

      Luke says:
      Acts 9:19-30
      In Damascus some days
      arrived in Jerusalem
      Barnabas led him to the apostles
      and he was with them going in and going out in Jerusalem.

      Acts 22:11-18
      went into Damascus
      returned to Jerusalem

      Acts 26:20
      first in Damascus
      and Jerusalem
      to all the country of Judea
      and to the nations
      Paul says:
      Galations 1:16-22
      I DID NOT GO up to Jerusalem
      but I went to Arabia
      returned again to Damascus
      then after three years I went up to Jerusalem
      to learn from Peter and remained with him fifteen days
      SAW NONE OF THE OTHER APOSTLES except James, the brother of the Lord
      and what I write to you, behold, before Theos I do not lie
      then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia
      but I WAS NOT KNOWN by face to the churches of Judea
      We have Luke telling us that Paul spent some days in Damascus and then he went to Jerusalem, and was taken to the apostles by Barnabas, and he was with them going in and going out in Jerusalem.

      But we have Paul telling us that he did not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and again to Damascus; and then finally arriving in Jerusalem three years later he did not see any of the apostles except for Peter and James.


      • #4
        Shalom Sandy,

        It all depends on whom you want to believe, Paul or Luke.

        Paul said that he went to Arabia first. It was in Arabia that Moshe run into the burning bush and where he got the 10 commandmends. I am sure that he must have explained to his followers what is that he went to do in Arabia for so long. Was he looking for the burning bush? Among the Christians they believe that Paul was personally instructed by Jesus in the Arabian desert for over three years. That is the same amount of time the rest of the apostles spent with Jesus in and around Jerusalem. So Paul can claim that none of the apostles taught him anything that he didn't know already. Actually, Galatians is one of the first files written about Christianity. Paul claims all copyrights!

        Galatians 2:6 (NIV) As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message.

        Galatians 1:15 (KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,
        16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
        17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
        18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
        19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
        20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

        So Paul is the inventor of Christianity. He wanted to be like Moshe, too. That's why he says to be set apart from the womb, and that is why he went to Arabia. So he wrote his autobiography accordingly. He sure knows how to write his resume. He said that his knowledge about Jesus comes from spooky sources, not from "flesh and blood." In other words, he didn't learn anything he knows from any man. He is known to be guided by dreams, visions, trances, and so on, and that Jesus was revealed IN him. He is the coiner of "Christ IN you, the hope of glory." The Heathen call it "divine incarnation." Paul also invented "The Lord's Supper" or "to sup on The Lord." Nowhere in the Tanakh we have any of that. In fact, Yahweh places a curse on any man trusting man for salvation no matter how powerful or "divine" that man can be. Only Yahweh is worthy of praise and he is our salvation, but Paul's Jesus is stealing the show.

        Jeremiah 17:5 * This is what Yahweh says: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from Yahweh.

        The historical Jesus was a plain human being. Even if he were a small percetange human and the rest heavenly, that would still make him a man, and I would be cursed of Yahweh if I trust in him.
        "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ


        • #5
          Wow, Stranger and Sandy. It's amazing what you can dig up if you search a little. This seems down right scary to me. Someone seems to be telling a fib here. Pauls credentials lack that official look that goes with a true servant of YHWH. Has Paul dreamed up his faith? Now I see how (jesus) became saviour of the worlds people's, yet somehow forgot to include his own brethren. Paul dreams up a faith that grants salvation to the worlds peoples, at the exclusion of his own and then writes out YHWH's part in in that salvation, backing up the gospels misguided view of the tanakh. No wonder that the JEWish peoples recieve no salvation. YHWH, the only saviour (Isa.45:21-25) has no part in the NT's plan of salvation. That makes the NT empty of hope for the people of the promised redemption. Since no saviour is to come from the JEWish peoples if I read Isa.51:18 right, (jesus) couldn't be their saviour anyway. [There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought fourth: neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up]. So until YHWH is put back into the plan of salvation, we haven't seen the true redeemer yet. This sounds more like his plan to me, "Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Thou shalt seek them, and shall not find them, even them that contend with thee: they that war against thee shalt be as nothing, and as a thing of nought. For I, YHWH Elohenu will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, fear not; I will help thee. Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith YHWH, and thy redeemer, the holy one of Israel. (Isa.41:11-14) This is the kind of plan that YHWH makes to save his peoples. And when he saves them, they are saved. ....Michael


          • #6
            Shabbat Tovah!!!

            I'm coming up with a few more thoughts about Paul.
            Moshe killed an Egyptian in defense of a righteous Jew.
            Paul had MANY of the righteous Jews dragged to prison for punishment and death. MANY widows and MANY orphans were the result of Paul's leading role in his Herodian days.

            Acts 26:9 (NIV) "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
            10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put MANY of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.
            11 MANY a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.

            Now Paul is telling the Roman Christians and everybody else that they better listen to the Roman authorities because "not in vain they carry the sword." Paul must have remembered how he used the sword of the armed guards that were under his command to round up rebellious Jews who didn't feel free under the Roman occupation and who were expecting a liberating messiah. These Jews believed that Jesus was probably the messiah. They believed that the historical Jesus was going to return and set them free from the Roman occupation. There is nothing wrong in believing anything like that, but Paul didn't like it. So he used the sword to persecute anyone who wanted to be free from the Roman occupation. Paul never expressed any word of remorse or grief for his past activities as the hit man for the ruling class of the Herodians and the Sadducees. Now he is implying that when he used the sword he held no terror for those who did right. Only those who believed in a liberating messiah he dragged to prison for punishment and death.

            Romans 13:3 (NIV) For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
            4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
            5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
            6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
            7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

            Paul didn't change much. He is still teaching TOTAL submission to the same authorities that he worked for in his past as a hit man for the Herodians and the Sadducees. Paul disconnected himself totally from the righteous Jews. He considers them enemies of the cross of Jesus. I believe that Paul offers a justification for his criminal past in Romans 13 saying that the authorities that carry the sword like he used to carry are "GOD'S SERVANTS" to do them good, Like Paul used to do them good. If not, then ask the MANY Jewish widows and orphans. They will tell you if Paul didn't do them good.

            Another "good" thing that those in authority do with the sword is to kill all the babies under 2 years of age just because Jesus was born. So "not in vain they carry a sword." Paul and the writers of the NT probably thought that it is worthwhile to create a new religion that would united the Roman Empire, and they succeeded. Christianity persecuted and killed so many millions of Jews that is no joke. Paul says that "not in vain" the Roman authorities and the Christians Crusaders for that matter carry a sword. Ask the mothers that were left childless around the time that Jesus was born when those who "carry the sword" chopped the head of their babies 2 years old and under. Those mothers where still alive when Paul was preaching his message of "grace" and full obedience to the Roman authorities "because not in vain they carry the sword." They are "God's Servants" Paul says.

            I honestly don't know what other message ought to preach Paul, or any of us. My concern is that Paul doesn’t apologize in sorry and grief for his past life rounding up righteous Jews and dragging them to prison for punishment and death. He never showed any regret for any of that in any of his letters. In fact, he bragged to King Agrippa about it. Then Paul turns around and is telling everybody that he is forgetting the past. How can anyone forget the MANY widows and orphans around that Paul caused…? It really blows my mind. One has to be a cold blooded murderer to forget the MANY widows and orphans that one caused while being ignorant. Or maybe that is the Christian way. When I think to the recent scandalous sins committed by so many Christians in the clergy who never resigned, I wonder. Although, that's hardly a picnic. Other Christians declared wars and killed millions of fellow human beings. Now we should all forget what they did. Is that right?

            Philippians 3:13 (NIV) Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
            14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

            Am I being too picky on Paul? I believe that it is a matter of how anyone perceives the truth. Is this what Christianity is all about?
            "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ


            • #7
              Blessings to you Stranger.
              Christianity vindicates too many evils for me. I believe in accountability for ones sins. When you take your own transgressions seriously, as you would if you are accountable for them, your repentance must also taken more seriously by YHWH. Christianity took something from me that I wanted. They defiled the name of a beautiful people and in so doing, caused the deaths of millions. I continually want this people back in my world. When the JEWish peoples came out of Babylon, they came out with a clean slate. They paid their debt to their Eloheem. Isa.44:22 shows this. It is dated to the time of Cyrus, whose name occurs six verses later in the chapter. "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud,thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee." This debt for the lives of the JEWish peoples who were murdered for being JEWish, belongs to the christian faith and to those who set up this faith. Paul has his part to pay. I wish that he could see the evil that his faith caused! He should be made to stare into the pit that he dug for the JEWish people. I hope that the revelation of YHWH's name will tear the hearts of all christians someday. ---Baruch hashem ....Michael


              • #8

                Shalom and praise YHWH.

                In verse after verse of Scripture we are told YHWH is our salvation. Do we need another?

                Love in Him,

                Sis YahChannah of
                The magnificent region of Qumran is the meeting point between three natural wonders: the Dead Sea, the Judean desert, and the Jordan River. Its other-worldly atmosphere and panoramic vistas have attracted visitors throughout the ages. Year after year, people from all around the world come to explore the monumental archeology of ancient Qumran, the healing powers and mystical properties of the Dead Sea, the waters of the Jordan River – where Jesus of Nazareth was baptized and over which the Israelites crossed on their way into the Promised Land, and the serene monasteries of the Judean Desert – where the caves and natural springs have sustained monks, saints and hermits for centuries.

                May our Father bless your coming in and your going out...forevermore.


                • #9

                  Welcome YahChannah. It's always good to find another friend who esteems the name of YHWH. Baruch hashem. ....Michael