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**Spying** · 03-25-2001, 11:18 AM

The Iniquity Of His Fathers and The Sin Of His Mother!!

Hi Stranger,

Does the strong man gain strength through exercise alone? No, he must also have good food to eat. Messiah said:

John 6:47-51
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.(KJV)

So, the muscle or strength of Messiah is the life of the world if this flesh is eaten by the world. Consider these words:

John 4:34
34 Yahushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (KJV)

What are these words saying? Can accomplishing the will of YAHWEH be considered food? If one finishes the work of YAHWEH, is that flesh for your bones? When we consider these things along spiritual lines, can we call this flesh bread? Yes, we can! It is the best of foods! Is it not written?:

Deut 8:3
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that (the) man (the Messiah)doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the YAHWEH doth man live. (KJV)

So, the real bread of life is very simple. This bread is doing what YAHWEH has commanded. Did Messiah accomplish this eating? Yes! Do all the praisers of YAHWEH participate in this eating? Yes, they do! Every Jew who remembers the Sabbath Day to keep it holy is eating of this bread, and he is praising YAH thereby. However, is that the only command by which YAH is praised? No, the flesh of Messiah is not a one slice meal. It is a full course meal which is actually double edged. It is a meal which has a hidden agenda. Only the very few get to eat of this hidden agenda, and when one begins to eat, your must eat your portion. As it is written:

Luke 22:19
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. (KJV)

Many eat from one side of this bread. Both Gentiles and Jews keep the physical Sabbath. One can keep the Sabbath knowing nothing about the spiritual keeping of the Sabbath which is a turning and a complete rest from sin. However, if one begins to eat of the spiritual side, that is, if one is made aware of the hidden agenda, and if one begins to consciously interfere with that hidden agenda by introducing one's own agenda, by leavening the bread of life so to speak, one lifts his heel, does he not from the path of life? If one strays from that path, what happens? There are snakes lying by the wayside. They will strike you and their poison will enter you, and no only that, but if you lift your heel from the path, there are others waiting to replace you. They will take your walk from you. They will take your walk, your place in the hidden agenda, and they will themselves will become the true praisers of YAH. So, there is reason enough not to name your children, Judas. If you don't think so, then please read this Psalm:

Ps 109:1-31
1 Hold not thy peace, O ELOHIM of my praise;
2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the YAHWEH; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the YAHWEH continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the YAHWEH, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
21 But do thou for me, O YAHWEH the Adonai, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me.
22 For I am poor and needy, and my heart is wounded within me.
23 I am gone like the shadow when it declineth: I am tossed up and down as the locust.
24 My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.
25 I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.
26 Help me, O YAHWEH my ELOHIM: O save me according to thy mercy:
27 That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, YAHWEH, hast done it.
28 Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice.
29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
30 I will greatly praise the YAHWEH with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.
31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul. (KJV)

So, tell me, Stranger, which praiser of YAHWEH do you desire to be? Which side of this bread do you desire to butter and eat? Do you desire to be YAHUSHUA or do you desire to be JUDAS? You can still be either one, you know!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 03-25-2001, 02:02 PM

Which is best Spying, to betray one JEW or to betray all the rest? Both of these men are guilty of betrayal. Judas betrayed a claimed redeemer to death. But (jesus) betrayed all of his people into the hands of christianity. Which puddle of blood is the deepest? The cry of a lone redeemer is hard to listen to, but the screams of the JEWish children who are betrayed into the hands of christianity, make an uglier sound! Stranger is not talking about the name of Judas, but rather the name of Judah, from which it is taken. Ps. 109 is also talking about the name of Judah, (the house of David), and it's relationship to the name of YHWH, along with those who have to depend upon it for their salvation. Christianity has an ugly side. You need to become aware of it. A saviour should save his own people if he wants to be called their saviour. Christianity does not make an appropriate bandaid for the JEWish people. ....Michael

**Sandy** · 03-25-2001, 02:12 PM

Hello Stranger
Very interesting post.

In verse 27 where it says,

"As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him."

Do you think Jesus is talking to Judas or is he actually talking to Satan, the one who entered Judas?

I find it equally disturbing that in the Scriptures, not just in the Greek but also in the Hebrew, individuals can be singled out and used as a sort of pawn (some for good and others for evil). There are several cases of which some are clear and some not so clear. The case of Pharoah being a very clear example as well as Job.

Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart and I will multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

First sign: Rod turned into a serpent (Exodus 7:8-12)
Second sign: Water turned to blood (Exodus 7:17-25)
Third sign: Frogs (Exodus 8:1-15)
Fourth sign: Lice (Exodus 8:16-19)
Fifth sign: Flies (Exodus 8:20-32)
Sixth sign: Death of Egypt's livestock (Exodus 9:1-7)
Seventh sign: Boils (Exodus 9:8-12)
Eighth sign: Hail (Exodus 9:13-35)
Ninth sign: Locusts (Exodus 10:1-20)
Tenth sign: Darkness and gloom (Exodus 10:21-29)
Eleventh sign: Death of Egypt's firstborn (Exodus 11:1-12:33)

After each sign, except the last, YHUH purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would NOT let the Israelites/Hebrews leave.

Why are his signs and wonders plagues, pestilence and death? Why does he not do something beautiful and uplifting to prove who and what he is?

Job 1
6) And a day came when sons of the elohim came to present themselves before YHUH and the Satan also came among them.
8) And YHUH said to the Satan, Have you set your heart before my servant Job? For there is none like him in the earth. A perfect and upright man, fearing elohim and turning away from evil.
12) And YHUH said to the Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only, do not lay your hand on him...
Job 2
1) And a day came when sons of the elohim came to present themselves before YHUH and the Satan also came among them.
8) And YHUH said to the Satan, Have you set your heart before my servant Job? For there is none like him in the earth. A perfect and upright man, fearing elohim and turning away from evil.
6) And YHUH said to the Satan, Behold he is in your hand. But keep his life.

Even though Job is perfect, upright, fearing elohim and turns from evil YHUH places him in the hand of Satan. Satan is allowed to do anything he wants to him except take his life.

Personally I find that very disturbing.

**Spying** · 03-26-2001, 08:05 AM

Betrayal

Hi Thummim,

Your questions are good questions to ask a spy. In my humble opinion, betrayal is betrayal, and it is neither good or bad due to the numbers involved. From a spy's perspective, betrayal is good if your enemies are bad. I believe that it is a bad thing to betray a good person. I believe that it is a bad thing to betray a good people or nation. I believe that it is a good thing to betray a evil person just like it is a good thing to betray an evil nation. To illustrate my point, consider this scenario: If you were a spy who had infiltrated the high command of Nazi Germany, and if you betrayed their secrets to the Allies, is that betrayal good or bad? How about if we turn that around? Let's say that you are a Nazi spy in the high command of the Allies, and if you betrayed their secrets, is that betrayal good or bad? What if you had learned of the time and place of the Allied Invasion of Europe, and you then communicated that information to your German superiors, would that betrayal have been good or bad? Do you see? It really depends upon who your enemies are, doesn't it?

Now, I am working to communicate to you Messiah's perspective on this issue. Messiah in a sense was himself a spy. He, being a man, was privileged to view most of the state secrets of YAHWEH. Messiah began to communicate those secrets to his own people, the Jews. This communication was accomplished in a manner approved by YAHWEH, but, by and large, his own people rejected this communication. It happened with Messiah as it happened with Joseph. His own people were very jealous of him and his claims. Consider this claim alone:

Matt 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (KJV)

If you yourself had been present when Messiah made the above statement, what would you have thought? What if you had been an elder of Israel, let's say a righteous Pharisee, how would you have been feeling, listening to that statement? I know what I would have been thinking and feeling: "Young man, what do you think that I myself have been doing all my life? What do you think that your people have been doing for the last fourteen hundred years? You say that you are here to fulfill, what does that imply about us?" As Messiah advanced his mission, his own people became more and more suspicious of him. He would not open up to them. He would not answer their questions, especially the questions of the religious authorities without ordinarily making them feel foolish. You see, Messiah was loyal to YAHWEH. He would not betray state secrets. When the Jews confronted him, they walked away with egg all over their faces.

Messiah is the Son of Man. He is not just the Savior of the Jews. He is the Savior of all mankind. This savior was betrayed not just by Judas, but by his own people, and Judas, himself, is representative of that people. Did Messiah come to his own people with a false report? Did his own people believe this report? Then how do you say that he betrayed his own people? Did he betray his own people by telling them the truth? When you tell someone the truth, that is not a betrayal. What did Messiah say that was not the truth? So, you are quite wrong, Thummim. Messiah has not betrayed his own people, but his own people did betray him.

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 03-26-2001, 10:04 AM

Shalom Spying. I have some questions for you. When you accuse the [JEWs], are you aware that you are making all JEWs guilty? What percent of the JEWs are guilty of betraying your messiah? How many were there to betray him? Aren't you equally guilty of betraying Abraham Lincoln? I know that you didn't shoot him but neither did the [JEWs] betray (jesus). How many were present. How many made a choice to participate? Are one out of ten thousand guilty? You must realize that crucifixion is Roman. Why don't I hear you accusing the Romans of crucifing him? Are Americans guilty of a crime everytime one of our fellow citizens goes bezerk? Why do you talk about JEWs different than you talk about ourselves? When the nazi's went after the JEWs, they first assaulted their name. They made it clear that JEWs were different from themselves. Without defiling their name, the german people wouldn't have let the nazi's harm the JEWs. First the german people needed permission to turn their heads and not listen to JEWish cries for help. This is what defiling a name is all about. First you murder the name, then you murder the people. The german people also spoke like you, accusing all JEWs. Only they would say "das Juden!". Yes, germans were like christians in the way they spoke of JEWs. The JEWs did it, the JEWs did it. Of all the people that are accused by saying [the JEWs], not one out of a million had anything to do with the killing of (jesus). Yet, christians have a very long memory and cannot accuse those who are responcible, they have to accuse all JEWs. Whatever (jesus) meant by his statement,"Think not that I am come to distroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to distroy, but to fulfil", By the right arm of christianity, he destroyed his people by the millions. To redeem the JEWs from the wrath of christianity will take a name that christians will not accuse, in the way that they have accused the name, [JEWs]. I look for the help of the lovers of this people, to help me cover all JEWs with the name of their Eloheem. The authors of the tanakh did not intend to leave the (image of Eloheem) empty. If a peoples can look like YHWH, they can also be called by his name. ....Michael

**Spying** · 03-27-2001, 09:43 AM

Bloodguilt!

Hi Thummim,

You ask some difficult questions, and I will endeavor not to waffle in my answers. This is what Messiah has to say concerning those who are against him:

Matt 12:30-37
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (KJV)

These are the words of Messiah's generation:

Matt 27:22-25
22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Yahushua which is called Messiah? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
(KJV)

This bloodguilt is upon the head of the Jewish people. Indeed, fathers can make decisions which affect their children for generations to come. At the trial of Messiah, the Jews were very sure of themselves. It did not take very long for them to begin to lose confidence. All it took was a few honorable men standing up and declaring their bloodguilt to them. Here is what Peter testifies:

Acts 2:22-23
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yahushua of Nazareth, a man approved of ELOHIM among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which ELOHIM did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of ELOHIM, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (KJV)

In other words: YOU ARE GUILTY OF SLAYING AN INNOCENT MAN. The Jews did not like these accusations back then:

Acts 5:28
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. (KJV)

And even you must admit that nothing has changed in two thousand years. The Jews refuse to accept their responsibility in the suffering and death of Messiah. Shall we cover up their complicity and justify their words and denials? Therein lies your dilemma, Thummim. You have a clear accusation against the Jews in the New Testament. You don't like that so you seek to discredit the New Testament. Ultimately, in order to rid the world of that accusation, you are going to have to participate in one gigantic book burning party someday, aren't you? And not only that, but you are going to have to discredit and malign men like myself who are this day also teaching the doctrine of the New Testament. You are, by your questions, already attempting to set me up as being anti-Semitic, aren't you? I am against the shedding of innocent blood period, but I am not against the telling of the truth.

I have admitted to all that are willing to listen that I, myself, through my sin did crucify Messiah Yahushua. He was an innocent man, and I did take him and slay him through my sin. I am horrified by that deed, and I have repented and turned from my sin. I am not saying that I have reached perfection. I am still fighting against my sin. If I should give up my belief that I did crucify Messiah through my sin, then I will lose my battle with sin because I no longer have motivation to win. It is the doctrine of the Tzaddikim that this circumstance is the same for all men. All men who have sinned are guilty of shedding the innocent blood of Messiah. Now, betrayal and false accusation and witness are an entirely different manner. Here is what Messiah has to say:

John 19:11-12
11 Yahushua answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. (KJV)

You can see here that Messiah knows that his own people have the greater sin. Messiah will be very cautious with his own people. They will be tested to see whether their hearts have changed.

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 03-27-2001, 11:26 AM

Spying, you are infected with anti-semitism and you don't even know it. It is because, so many people believe as you, that JEWs have perished by the millions. You're not alone in your beliefs. These are the things that JEWs were told as they were being slaughtered by the millions by those who believed themselves to be good christians. You see, the NT seems to give christians the permission that anti-semites need to hate JEWs. Anti-semitic onclaves have their faiths. They draw their strenth from the pages of the NT. They can be devout christians and still hold JEWs responsible for the death of (jesus). If there is a document in this world that has a vendetta against JEWs, it is the New Testiment. It, along with "Mien Kamph", make JEWs their villians. What the nazi's do to the JEWish body, the christians do to the JEWish soul. Neither gives the JEWish people any hope of escaping it's wrath. I know that it hasn't occured to you that (jesus) might not be the saviour of the JEWish people. Why delay the salvation of the JEWish people by millenia? There is no such delay prophecied. A redeemer should redeem and a saviour should save. You've been told of a deciever that will decieve the world and how he will be percieved as the ultimate saviour of this world, by it's peoples. Perhaps you already believe in him. Perhaps the decieved ones call themselves believers. If you don't believe, how can you be decieved? Perhaps you already believe in the antichrist. Perhaps you're already his disciple. The man (jesus), definately isn't a blessing to his people. If the redeemer of the JEWish soul comes for his peoples sake, to deliver them from the wrath of this world, what will become of him? Will christians treat him any different than they have treated his people? If such a man ever came to his people, what do you think would happen to him? What the christians have done to the JEWish people, they would likely do to him. Could the christians end up tripping and falling into the same pit they dug for all JEWs? Yes, I can see the christians killing another JEW. Will christians become the true killers of the messiah? Given the history of christianity, I can see it happening. Is there nothing in your heart that would allow you to defend the JEWish people from the assault that the NT throws at them. You defend one JEW as your god. But you do not give his people any defense. You need to discover the JEWish people. They have no distinct look. You could not tell their children from your own, or from those of your neighbor. This people are assaulted because they belong to a name. They are JEWs. If you were to become a JEW, nobody would know that you were any different from any other JEW. They would only see your name. But because you had subscribed to the name of [JEW], it would become your turn to experience the wrath of christianity. Your arguments have only proven the NT to be an anti-semitic book. I could hardly do it better. These are the arguments that christians have used to lessen their guilt from their many oppresions of the JEWish people. Maybe the NT is just a book. If that were the case, would you feel different towards the JEWish people then you do now? No, I dont believe that you are an anti-semite, but if you think like one---? ....Michael

**Stranger** · 03-27-2001, 09:10 PM

Shalom Sandy,

I’m sorry, but I have only a few minutes to read your reply and give you a quick answer. Next Shabbat I will add more comments about your reply and I will read the rest of the replies, too.

Sandy, I know that Yahweh is sovereign and that he does a lot of odd things for his own pleasure. I am not bothered by the fact that Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart and delivered Job to Satan. Although, neither of them bear Yahweh's name like Judas or Jesus. I know that Yahweh is fair minded and full of mercy, too. In my post I am bothered by the fact that Yahweh is allegedly shown to have gone beyond his nature of protecting the sacredness of his own name and used a person bearing his name to betray an alleged messiah that he is supposed to have sent.

I strongly believe that the writers of the NT made up the story many years after the events and named the alleged betrayer, "Judas" that is akin to JEW so they could blame a JEW for killing an alleged messiah. The big mistake is that "Judas" is also akin to Yahudah which is the house that David belongs to and from where the messiah must come. I am sure you must know that. I can make sense of the Pharaoh and Job cases, but not this one. The Judas/Jesus connection doesn’t make sense at all, except for a lot of pain and suffering. Is there a reason for all of that? I can see the end of Job. So there must be some hope in bearing the suffering brought about by the"Jesus/Judas" connection.

**Spying** · 03-28-2001, 08:34 AM

All have sinned!

Hi Thummim,

I have already charged that all men are guilty of the shed blood of Messiah Yahushua because all men have sinned. As it is written,

Isa 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the YAHWEH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)

You would have me relieve the Jews of this bloodguilt. Why? Is it because the Jews in actuality have done good? Please, Thummim, I see that you would have me absolve them of any complicity in the death of Messiah simply because they are a race and have suffered greatly. Please, show me their goodness so that I can judge that they are indeed innocent and at the same time relieve myself of what you do now perceive to be my anti-Semitism! The Scriptures will not allow such a judgment so I no doubt will not be relieved. As it is written:

Ps 14:2-3
2 The YAHWEH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek ELOHIM.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)

Judge with righteousness judgment. Why hate the Christians and love the Jews when both are guilty of going their own way and engaging in the very same activities? Is it not written?

Eccl 7:20
20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (KJV)

So, all are guilty, Thummim. If we absolve one race, simply because they are a race, then we should be willing to absolve all races. I am not willing to do that because the Scriptures condemn all races. All men are sinners.

Now, it is an entirely a different matter for one group of sinners to look upon another group of sinners and judge each other less worthy! I believe that is what you are reacting to when you see in history that Christians have persecuted and oppressed the Jews. It is not fair, and you know it, and so do I. For the most part, this scripture describes the historical relationship between Jews and Gentiles:

Jer 50:6-7
6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the YAHWEH, the habitation of justice, even the YAHWEH, the hope of their fathers. (KJV)

This was the attitude of the Nazis. It is not my attitude. Now, if this attitude should not be found among Christians, why it is good for the Jews to have this attitude amongst themselves concerning the Palestinians?

Sincerely, Spying

**Sandy** · 03-28-2001, 11:20 AM

CONTRADICTIONS

Spying wrote:

Isa 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the YAHWEH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)

Ps 14:2-3
2 The YAHWEH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek ELOHIM.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)

Eccl 7:20
20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (KJV)

Why do you always put the word "the" before YHUH'S name?

According to the Scriptures you gave:

all have gone astray...
there is none that does good...
there is not a just man upon earth...

But these Scriptures say otherwise.

Genesis 6:9
...Noah, a man, upright and perfect...

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety-nine years-old, YHUH appeared to Abram and said to him, Walk before me and be perfect;

Genesis 26:5
Abraham listened to my voice, heeded my charge, my commands, my statutes and my Torah.

1 Kings 15:14 (2 Chronicles 15:17)
...the heart of Asa was perfect with YHUH all his days.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, his name was Job, and this man was perfect and upright, fearing elohim and turning away from evil.

Psalm 97:12
Rejoice in YHUH, you who are upright

Proverbs 14:32
The upright has hope in his death

**Thummim** · 03-28-2001, 12:36 PM

Shalom Spying,
 Isa.41:11, “Behold all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Thou shalt seek them and, and shalt not find them, even them that contend with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of naught.
Isa.44:22, “I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (this verse, goes with the time of Cyrus, placing the redemption of the JEWish peoples long before the advent of christianity. {vs.28})”.
Isa.45:17,25 But Israel shall be saved in YHWH with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded, world without end. In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Isa.54:17, No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgement thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHWH.
Isa.60:21, Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land forever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
Isa.62:12, And they shall call them the holy people, the redeemed of YHWH and thou shalt be called, sought out, A city not forsaken. [This is some of the scriptural “goodness” of the JEWish peoples that you asked me to show you.] The goodness of this peoples, goes far beyond the scriptures contained within their own book. They practice their own faith as do I, and show concern for other peoples. The palestinian people have, at least, as many JEWish friends as they have JEWish enemies.
The prophet Isaiah believes in the righteousness of YHWH’s people, not because they are inherently righteous, but because YHWH makes them so. There is no blood guilt upon the JEWish peoples for the killing of one of their own numbers. Did the Romans crucify peoples for violating JEWish law? No, they practiced capital punishment when their own laws were violated. Therefore, it wasn’t the JEWs that crucified (jesus), it was the Romans. We Americans do not use capital punishment, except to pass judgement for the violation of our own laws. Why would we want to use capital punishment upon others, for the violation of laws that are not ours. You could easily allow JEWs to be a redeemed people if you wanted to. You instead hold them in “blood guilt”. The JEWs are not a race of peoples. I keep trying to tell you this. They are as much a race of peoples as we Americans are. Your perception of the JEWish peoples is slanted. You listen to christianities definition of JEWs and see them accordingly. There is every kind of peoples represented among the JEWs, in this world. There are oriental JEWs, Indian JEWs, European JEWs, Arab JEWs, Mexican JEWs, and African JEWs, etc. The JEWish people come from all over the world and represent every group of people in the world. You are (thinking) like an anti-semite. The JEWish people are not static in their makeup. New blood enters them every day. You can find a peoples righteousness as easily as you can find their unrighteousness. If you only loved this people as much as you love your christian doctrines, you might find your own righteousness, in finding theirs. Your faith refuses to redeem this people. As far as I know, the tanakh promises redemption to the seed of Jacob. I do not see christianity being mentioned in these verses that I began with.
I do not hate christians, I hate christianity (the faith that keeps defining JEWs as unredeemed). If you follow the oppression of the JEWish peoples, where this oppression is, you also find christianity. Perhaps it is because the doctrines of christianity, hold the JEW’s in their own ideas of blood guilt. I have a question to ask you. When a gentile becomes a JEW, do you judge him as a gentile, or as a JEW? How much blood guilt comes with his choice to be JEWish? Would a gentile who made this choice, be condemned by your faith? In the historical relationship between JEWs and christians, isn’t the body of a christian, always treated better then the body of a JEW? I know how christians have treated JEWs, but I’m not sure how the JEWish peoples have mistreated the christians. The JEWish peoples may have mistreated the palestinians to the number of hundreds, but the christians have mistreated the JEWs to the number of millions. These two conflicts are not the same. JEWs verses Palistinians is not the same as christians verses JEWs. When riots occur in America, what do you think the authorities do about it. Under the same conditions, we would most likely send in the national guard. Do you really think that we would handle the situation any differently, here in America? I want to see the christians acknowledge the JEWish peoples as a redeemed peoples. ….Michael

**Sandy** · 03-28-2001, 01:16 PM

Spying wrote:

I have already charged that all men are guilty of the shed blood of Messiah Yahushua because all men have sinned.

Iesous died for his own sins and his sins only. He did not die for the sins of mankind. The sinner dies as a consequence for his own sins.

All men are not sinners according to this:

Matthew 9 (Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32)
12) But Iesous hearing, he said to them, The ones who are strong have no need of a physician, but the ones who are sick.
13) ...I did not come to call the upright, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 1
5) In the days of Herod the king of Judea, there was certain priest named Zacharias...And his wife was of the daughters of Aaron and her name was Elizabeth.
6) And they were both upright in the sight of Theou, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Kuriou.

**Spying** · 03-29-2001, 08:45 AM

No Law, No Imputed Sin!

Hi Sandy,

The Jews fully realize that the Torah or the Old Covenant is a marriage between themselves and YAHWEH. They are jealous of that relationship. While some Jews do proselyte, i.e. the Hasidim, the majority do not. Indeed, it is unlawful for Jews to teach Gentiles the Torah. Their attitude is this: If I should teach you, you are going to take my place and the place of my children. Therefore, they do not teach any except those who do through persistence keep coming to them showing all the signs of someone who desires to learn. Such a learner must be willing to submit to the Torah. A male Gentile must be circumcised before he would be accepted within the community of Israel. Even so, such a proselyte remains after conversion and circumcision a second class citizen of Israel. His children are not automatically considered Jews. As far as I know, his children do not have the right of return unless they also can demonstrate that they themselves have endured the conversion process. The exception to this is, of course, those children born to a Jewish mother. They don't have to convert; eventhough, their father is a Gentile. Such children are automatically considered righteous Jews, recipients of the covenant of YAHWEH.

Jews maintain that circumcision and the Sabbath are signs of the Covenants. Both are like a marriage ring to the Jews, and it is Jewish law that Gentiles should not wear the ring of the Sabbath Day. As far as they as concerned, you must break the Sabbath Day in some fashion to show that you are not attempting to wear their ring. So, Sandy, you fit right into their thinking with you partial observance of the Sabbath Day, and they would approve of your teaching other Gentiles to only keep holy the daylight portion of the Sabbath Day. Under Jewish law, Gentiles can be executed for keeping the Sabbath without full conversion. The Jews (I am speaking of knowledgeable Jews here) view Gentile Sabbath keeping as a form of theft.

Now, it is indeed interesting when you look at some of these Jewish beliefs in the light of the experience of Abraham who was the first proselyte. Basically, Abraham was a Gentile who became a Jew through conversion. Ishmael was not considered a child of the covenant, eventhough he was circumcised, because his mother was not Jewish so to speak. However, Isaac was considered a child of the covenant strictly because of who his mother was.

The Jews place Abraham on a very high pedestal. They consider him to be a very righteous Tzaddik. They point to this scripture about him that you have noted above:

Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice (qowl), and kept my charge (mishmereth), my commandments(mitsvah), my statutes (chuqqah), and my laws (torah). (KJV)

The Jews believe that YAHWEH made Abraham aware of all the requirements of the Old Covenant, and that Abraham did live by every word of that covenant as the above scripture seems to imply.

I do not accept that teaching, Sandy. I believe that the Torah was given to the Children of Israel through Moses and not through Abraham. I do not believe that Abraham himself was personally made aware of all the requirements of the Torah, otherwise he would not have married Sarah, his sister, and he would not have had sex with a gentile slave. Both are unlawful practices. So, it is exactly as the Apostle Paul does teach. Where there is no law, there is no transgression of the law. Once you are made aware of the law, you then are made responsible to the law. If Abraham had at any point been made fully aware of the law, then he no doubt, being the righteous man that he was, would have put away Sarah, his sister, as his wife.

So, just because the scriptures indicate that some men were righteous, this does not mean that they have fully lived up the standard of the Law sinless. Maybe they were not made aware of the law. Now, I admit that Asa is more of a problem for me, but you know what? Asa did die, didn't he? His body did see corruption, did it not? In the final analysis, our deaths and the decay of our bodies prove whether or not we were judged as sinners when we had life.

Sincerely, Spying

**Sandy** · 03-29-2001, 10:34 AM

First of all Spying it is of no concern to me as to the practices of the Jews. They do not seem to have any better understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures than anyone else. If they did they would not be so diversified in their beliefs. I am not into Judaism and I do not believe the Jews in the land known as Israel today are the gathered children of Israel. The people called Jews do not have the Torah written on their heart for they are far from having one heart and one spirit.

Secondly, your use of the word gentile as a translation of the Hebrew word goy only continues to corrupt and confuse the true meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Genesis 10:5
The coasts of the goyim (nations) were divided by these in their lands, each by his tongue, by their families, in their goyim (nations), the sons of Japheth

Genesis 10:20
These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands in their goyim (nations)

Genesis 10:31-32
These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, accoring to their goyim (nations)

These were the sons of Noah, by their generations, in their goyim (nations). And from these the goyim (nations) were divided in the earth after the flood

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of you (Abram) a great goy (nation)

Genesis 17:4-5
I behold My Covenant with you (Abram), and you will be a father of many goyim (nations)

And your name will be Abraham; because I have made you a father of many goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:16
I have blessed her (Sarah) and she will become goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:20
and I will make Ishmael a great goy (nation)

Genesis 18:18
and Abraham surely will become a great and powerful goy (nation), and all the goyim (nations) of the earth will be blessed in him.

Genesis 21:13
and also I will make a goy (nation) of the son (Ishmael) of the servant-girl, because he is your (Abrahams) seed.

Genesis 25:23
and YHUH said to Rebekah, Two goyim (nations, Esau and Jacob) are in your womb; yes, two people will come forth from your body

Genesis 35:11
and Elohim said to Jacob (Israel), I am El Shaddai...
A goy (nation) and a company of goyim (nations) will be from you

Exodus 9:24
...since Egypt became a goy (nation)

Exodus 19:6
and you (Hebrews, Israelites) will become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy goy (nation)

Isaiah 1:4
Woe, sinful goy (nation), a people (Yahudah) heavy with perversity, a seed of evildoers, sons who corrupt...

Jeemiah 7:28
But you shall say to them (Israel, Yahudah), This is the goy that does not obey the voice of YHUH their Eloah, nor receive instruction...

Jeremiah 31:36
If these ordinances depart from before me says YHUH, the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a goy (nation) before me all the days.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
So says YHUH, Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the goyim (nations), there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.

And I will make them one goy in the land on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two goyim (nations) anymore; and they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.

You wrote:

The Jews believe that YAHWEH made Abraham aware of all the requirements of the Old Covenant, and that Abraham did live by every word of that covenant as the above scripture seems to imply.

I do not accept that teaching, Sandy. I believe that the Torah was given to the Children of Israel through Moses and not through Abraham. I do not believe that Abraham himself was personally made aware of all the requirements of the Torah, otherwise he would not have married Sarah, his sister, and he would not have had sex with a gentile slave. Both are unlawful practices.

Here again misunderstanding comes into play because of English translation. The Hebrew word Torah means instruction/instructions NOT LAW. Abram/Abraham certainly had Torah. It may not have been in the exact same form as was given through Moses, but to say that Abraham would not have done this or that if he had the Torah as given by Moses; well king David certainly had the Torah given via Moses and yet he not only committed adultery, but conspired to bring about the death of the husband. So having and knowing the Torah is not proof in itself. The Hebrew Scriptures are rife with exceptions and contradictions.

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