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**Thummim** · 03-19-2001, 04:16 PM

Sandy, couldn't you do this with the words that some Americans have spoken? Every kind of filth has come out of American mouths. The character of some of our leaders has been proven detestible. So what does that have to do with you and I? It should be stated that most JEWs do not believe these things. The rabbi's are a mixed lot and their commentaries reflect this. The talmud is not given the reverance of the tanakh. Nor is any other commentary. These ideas do not define the JEWish people or their faith in any way. Most crap is not injested willingly. The words of the rabbi's are argued openly. It's the most righteous of the rabbi's that gain a following. Then even the most righteous of us sometimes find ourselves ashamed of some of the ideas that we have espoused and some of the words that we have spoken. You would be hard pressed to find many JEWs that except these ideas that you've covered. It should be noted that these are only a few of the words of the talmud. The talmud is a very large body of work. Good things can be found within the talmud also. ......Michael

**Moses** · 03-19-2001, 05:56 PM

Sandy, All the things that seem wrong with the scriptures come from mistranslation. The things written above can be understood only from a literal translation. It all has to do with crossbreeding and I don't mean blacks with whites or yellow or red skin people or vis-versa. I mean mixing human DNA with that of animals and plants. It is throughout the scriptures and other Hebrew writtings as well as throughout Greek writtings and other writtings of the world.
Mayby if I have time I will go through as much as I feel necessary and show you where I am coming from.
Marietta

**Sandy** · 03-19-2001, 08:40 PM

Thank you Marietta, that would be personally appreciated.

**Moses** · 03-19-2001, 09:03 PM

Greetings again,

Quote:
From the Talmud:
>>>Erubin 21b Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.<<<

My reply:
This is not saying that the Rabbis will punish a person by boiling them in hot excrement if they disobey them. It is simply telling the fact of what will happen through the laws of nature after their death.

Quote:
>>Moed Kattan 17a If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.<<

My reply:
I'm not familiar with this text, but will assume it is speaking about mixing with an animal.

Quote:
>>>Baba Mezia 114a-114b Only Jews are human (Only ye are designated men).<<<

My reply:
Only the Jews were pure blooded, not mixed with animals.

Quote:
>>Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a Gentile women are designated animals (she-asses).<<

My reply:
The gentiles women/she-asses/animals where the 'Oil of Anointing' because they brought the animal closer into the likeness of the elohim.

Quote:
>>>Sanhedrin 58b If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.<<<

My reply:
This is because they were checking to see if the crossbred animal/human beings were violent and if they were violent they were to be killed. The Jew was the one in the likeness of God.

Quote:
>>Sanhedrin 57a A Jew need not pay a Gentile (Cuthean) the wages owed him for work.<<

My reply:
This is because the Gentile is part animal and it was vowed that they were to be treated as animals in the work force.

Quote:
>>>Yebamoth 98a All Gentile children are animals.<<

My reply:
All the Gentiles/crossbreeds were considered animals.

Quote:
>>Abodah Zarah 36b Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.<<

My reply:
niddah means, to be in a state of impure menstruation. Making them an impure thing.

Quote:
>>Abodah Zarah 22a-22b Gentiles prefer sex with cows.<<

My reply:
Because they are part animal.

Quote:
>>Yebamoth 63a States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.<<

My reply:
This is also found in the literal translation of the Book of Genesis.

Quote:
>>Sanhedrin 55b A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).
Sanhedrin 54b
A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.<<<

My reply:
This is speaking of mixed marriages with gentiles who are part animal.

Quote:
Kethuboth 11b When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing.

My reply:
This is stating that intercourse of such a kind will not bring about the birth of a child.

Quote:
>>>Yebamoth 59b A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.<<<

My reply:
The woman who had intercourse with a beast or a satyre/demon is eligible to marry a Jewish priest because having intercourse with the animal did not mix her blood. She is not part animal simply by sleeping with such. However if she gave birth to an offspring it would not be eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Quote:
>>Univ. of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldsteins philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against "goyim," a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).<<<

My reply:
This along with the rest are a desplay of ignorance taken to extremes.

Marietta

**simchat_torah** · 03-19-2001, 10:10 PM

Marietta,

You have done an excellent job responding to many of these quotes. Sandy, tommorow I will be back to answer any more that may be left (if I'm not to bogged down with studies).

Shalom,
Japheth

**Thummim** · 03-20-2001, 08:23 AM

Marietta, I see no vindication of the existance of any of these ideas in your explanations. What if gentiles are taken as clean animals? Need they be taken for unclean animals? JEWs eat clean animals. Are gentiles seen as not coming from Adam? Having sex with animals is forbidden, so having sex with the human animal (any gentile) should also be forbidden. How do your explainations fit into the context of the following verse, "also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH to serve him and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, everyone that keepeth the sabboth from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be excepted upon mine altar, for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all people". All gentiles are not held in dishonour by JEWs. Didn't Esther marry a gentile and thereby save her people? Rabbi's who present such arguments in the talmud must know that their arguments are going to be distroyed by the opinions of other rabbi's better informed. "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt". Ex.22:21 How vexing are the arguments made by these rabbi's in the talmud? Than again, these arguments could have been put forth, only for debate. It has to be remembered that the talmud sets rabbi against rabbi. The talmud is intended to sift knowledge from the many conflicting positions that are expressed within it's pages. Perhaps simchat_torah can better explain these ideas in the context that the talmud is written. I'm sure these arguments aren't meant to be taken literally. ....Michael

**Moses** · 03-20-2001, 10:12 AM

Thummim,
You wrote:
>>I see no vindication of the existance of any of these ideas in your explanations. What if gentiles are taken as clean animals? Need they be taken for unclean animals?<<<

My reply:
Gentiles were the unclean animals! A mix of human and animal.

You wrote:
>>JEWs eat clean animals.<<

My reply:
No body is supposed to eat animals or any other living thing. "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" We are not to eat anything with blood.
I don't understand this question because I don't understand what it has to do with the topic. Please help me on this one.

You wrote:
>>Are gentiles seen as not coming from Adam?<<

My reply:
Gentiles came from the mixture of the gas from the blood of Adam with that of animals.

You wrote:
>>Having sex with animals is forbidden, so having sex with the human animal (any gentile) should also be forbidden.<<

My reply:
Anything that goes against the laws of nature is forbidden!

You wrote:
>>How do your explainations fit into the context of the following verse, "also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH to serve him and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, everyone that keepeth the sabboth from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be excepted upon mine altar, for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all people".<<

My reply:
This is a mistranslation as is all of the bible.

You wrote:
>>>All gentiles are not held in dishonour by JEWs.<<<

My reply:
How many Jews do you know that don't dishonor a satyre or a centyr or a mermaid, so on and so on?

You wrote:
>>Didn't Esther marry a gentile and thereby save her people?<<<

My reply:
Again more mistranslation.

You wrote:
>>"Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt". Ex.22:21<<

My reply:
I would translate this like this:

Exodus 22
21. all widows are not orphans themselves, their experience secures life

Michael, I don't believe these things were written for debate, they were writtten to keep the Jews in touch with the truth held within the pages of the Torah. Which by the way was taken from then over and over, with threat of death to those who read it.
Do you realize that Hebrew is the only Language that died and then was recently revived.

Shalom, Marietta

**Thummim** · 03-20-2001, 02:07 PM

Marietta
First I want to ask you how you would translate Isa.56:6,7? Nuwn, kaph, reysh (Nay-kawr) 5236, a forigner or heathen. This is the hebrew word (strangers), used to indicate who will be invited to the house of YHWH to give sacrifices. The word goyim, (nations) is not used here. In what way is this a mistranslation? The word used for nations is the word (am'im), the plural of am, 5991 (nations). There is no mistranslation here. [excepting that there is no perfect translation between any two languages]. Where does it say that gentiles are interbred with animals? I think that you are mistranslating something. Let me in on it. How did you ever come up with such an idea? It does not mean, thou shalt not kill. YHWH asks his people to kill often enough that you should be able to figure this out. A better translation would be, thou shalt not murder. All the animals are given as meat (Gen.9:3) to Noah. Why would it be different for Adam? This seems like YHWH's permision to eat meat, to me. The flesh is for food. It's the blood you must not eat. Now explain this, "Gentiles came from the mixture of the gas from the blood of Adam with that of animals."I dont understand this. You say "How many JEWs do you know that don't dishonor a satyre or a centyr or a mermaid, so on and so on?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? As to this verse, "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him: for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.", I should have identified it as Ex.22:20 in the hebrew text and Ex. 22:21 in the KJV. I do have the hebrew text and I consult it often. The verse you quoted is 22:21 in the hebrew text. JEWs are told to treat gentiles honorably. Dishonor would defile their name among the nations. The talmud offers many varying opinions and is argued often. Every rabbinical student must know this. Great debates ensue from the talmud. And did hebrew die? Wasn't it always spoken in some form? While it was not a national language, It was always a second language for JEWs and was used for religious purposes. Throughout JEWish history, going back millennia, it was taught in the synogoges. It however, wasn't a first language until recently. Very many words had to be added to it, to make it fit a modern day world. A few rabbi's, who contributed to the talmud, Do not define the JEWish people. ...Michael

**Sandy** · 03-20-2001, 02:59 PM

Hi everyone
I think part of the problem here is using the words gentile and gentiles to translate goy and goyim. When we are quoting something from the Hebrew Scriptures why don't we try using only the words goy and goyim (or nation and nations) as they are written in the Hebrew, and discontinue using the words gentile and gentiles. If you are willing to try this I think it will help us see more clearly how the words goy and goyim are used in relation to the goy (nation) of Israel as well as all the other goyim/nations.

**Thummim** · 03-20-2001, 03:34 PM

Good idea Sandy. I think that (nations) is preferable to (gentiles). I also concur with you, that the term {goy,goyim} is used to discribe the {tribe, tribes} of Israel as well as the other nations in existance. ....Michael

**Moses** · 03-20-2001, 11:35 PM

Thummim,
You wrote:
>>First I want to ask you how you would translate Isa.56:6,7?<<<

My translateion:
Isaiah 56:
6. therefore within wailing if he-lamb if to his sea upper hand opening secured doorway unto ministry therefore and exhausted in her with existing hand opening secured doorway unto existence to him mockery out of sea the likeness of watcher which daughter profaned therefore and from breast existing within breaking open to radiate hand itself working
First word: waw beth nun yod:
waw:= therefore
beth:=within
nun yod:=wailing
OR
waw:=therefore, and
beth nun yod:=flock
This word is translated as: beth nun, dropping the yod

Second word: he nun koph rehsh:
he nun:=if
koph:=he-lamb
OR
he:=the
nun koph rehsh:=strangness, calamity

Third word: he nun lehmed waw yod mem:
he nun:=they, if, behold
lahmed waw yod:=if only
mem:=from
OR
he nun:=behold, if, they
lahmed waw:=to his
yod mem:=sea
OR
he nun:=if, they, behold
lahmed:=unto, towards
ww:=therefore
yod mem:sea, hot spring
This word is translated as:he lahmed waw he

Forth word: ayin lahmed:=upper part, over, above

Fifth word: yod he waw he:=hand opening secure doorway

Sixth word: lahmed shin rehsh taw waw:
lahmed:=unto, towards
shin rehsh taw:=to serve, minister, service, servant
waw:=therefore, and

Seventh word: waw lahmed ahleph he beth he
waw:=therefore, and
lahmed:=unto, towards
ahleph he beth he:=love

OR
waw:=therefore, and
lahmed ahleph:=not, no
he beth he:=give, let us

OR
waw:=and
lahmed ahleph:=not
he:=the
beth he:=in her

OR
waw:=and, therefore
lahmed ahleph he:= to be weary, be impatient, tired, exhausted
beth he:=in her

Eighth word: ahleph taw: with

Ninth word: shim mem: reputation, desiignation, renown, fame, name, existing, in existence
OR
shim:=which, who, that
mem:=from, of

Tenth word: yod he waw he: hand opening secured doorway

Eleventh word: lahmed he yod waw taw
lahmed:=unto, towards
he yod waw taw:=to be, existence

Twelvth word: lahmed waw:=to him, if only
OR
lahmed:=unto, towards
waw:=therefore, and

Thirteenth word: lahmed ayin beth daleth yod mem

lahmed ayin:=throat
beth daleth yod:=for the sake of
mem:=from

OR
lahmed ayin:=throat
beth:=within
dahleth yod:=enough
mem:=from

lahmed ayin beth:=to jest, mock, mockery, disgrace
dahleth yod:=sufficiency, enough, about
mem:=from, of

OR
lahmed ayin beth:=to jest, mock, mockery, disgrace
dahleth:=out of
yod mem: sea, hot spring

OR
lahmed:=unto
ayin beth:=cloud, thick, thicket, beam, rafter
dahleth:=out of
yod mem:=sea

OR
lahmed:=unto
ayin beth dahleth:=working, to serve, deed, action, servant, slave, he did
yod mem:=sea, hot spring

Fourteenth word: koph lahmed:=all
Koph:=in the likeness of
lahmed:=towards, unto

Fifteenth word: shim mem rehsh:=to keep, to heed, watch over, guard, to observe, to strain, filter, watching, guarding, fennel

OR
shin:=whom, which, that
mem rehsh:=bitter, embittered, master, Mr., drop, hoe, myrrh

Sixteenth word: whim beth taw:=to cease, desist, to rest, day of rest, seat, sitting, dwelling place, cessation from work, rest, Anethum a genus of plants

OR
shin:=who, whom, which, that
beth taw:=daughter

Seventeenth word:mem cheth lahmed lahmed waw:
mem cheth lahmed lahmed:=profaned, violated, pierced, killed, wounded
waw:=therefore, and

OR
mem cheth lahmed:=to forgive, pardon, forgiveness, illness, a thin secreation, sap, juice
lahmed waw:=to him

Eighteenth word: waw mem cheth zian yod qoph yof mem:
waw:=therefore, and
mem:=from, of
cheth zian yod:=form, aspect, of the breast, pectoral
qoph yod mem:=living, existing, enduring, duration, lasting, valid

Ninteenth word: beth beth rehsh yod taw yod:=breaking open, birthing, house, family, within (pick two)- to radiate, head of a man, head, top, first-hand, work-itself-hand, work
-within breaking open to radiate hand itself working-

You wrote:
>>Where does it say that gentiles are interbred with animals?<<

My reply:
I don't have the time right now after taking the time to translate the above. I have my daughter and her baby here spending the night. I will take time after they go home to give a complete reply to this question. OK

You wrote:
>>thou shalt not kill. YHWH asks his people to kill often enough that you should be able to figure this out. A better translation would be, thou shalt not murder.<<<

My reply:
Kill murder, it is all the same thing. "Taking the life of another living thing." There is no way you can candy coat it. To die is to die.

You quote:
>>>All the animals are given as meat (Gen.9:3) to Noah.<<<

My reply:
Genesis 9
3. all exalted who walk straight unto your hand opening working doorway not all the likeness of splitting the Great Bear (a constellation) within life itself covenant working to you with all.

You wrote:
>>>Why would it be different for Adam? This seems like YHWH's permision to eat meat, to me. The flesh is for food.<<<

My reply:
So is it ok for me to eat the flesh of humans as long as the blood is drained out of it? If there is an advanced civilation is it ok for them to take us and breed us for food because they can?
This is very disturbing to me.

You wrote:
>>And did hebrew die? Wasn't it always spoken in some form?<<

My reply:
Hebrew died as a "spoken language." It was forbidden upon threat of death to speak the Hebrew language. The Jews were even forbidden to have coppies of their scriptures, which is where the commantaries known as the Kaballah came from. The devout Jews put together from memory the Torah.
I have much more to say on this but an to tired.

Shalom, Marietta

**Moses** · 03-20-2001, 11:42 PM

Sandy, Please show me where in the Hebrew scriptures you find the wording Goy/goyim of Israel?
According to my dictionary, goy means: body, an irreligious Jew, people, nation

Your Friend,
Marietta

**Sandy** · 03-21-2001, 09:58 AM

Hi Marietta
Here are various verses that use the word goy and goyim.

Genesis 10:5
The coasts of the goyim (nations) were divided by these in their lands, each by his tongue, by their families, in their goyim (nations), the sons of Japheth

Genesis 10:20
These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands in their goyim (nations)

Genesis 10:31-32
These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, accoring to their goyim (nations)

These were the sons of Noah, by their generations, in their goyim (nations). And from these the goyim (nations) were divided in the earth after the flood

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of you (Abram) a great goy (nation)

Genesis 17:4-5
I behold My Covenant with you (Abram), and you will be a father of many goyim (nations)

And your name will be Abraham; because I have made you a father of many goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:16
I have blessed her (Sarah) and she will become goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:20
and I will make Ishmael a great goy (nation)

Genesis 18:18
and Abraham surely will become a great and powerful goy (nation), and all the goyim (nations) of the earth will be blessed in him.

Genesis 21:13
and also I will make a goy (nation) of the son (Ishmael) of the servant-girl, because he is your (Abrahams) seed.

Genesis 25:23
and YHUH said to Rebekah, Two goyim (nations, Esau and Jacob) are in your womb; yes, two people will come forth from your body

Genesis 35:11
and Elohim said to Jacob (Israel), I am El Shaddai...
A goy (nation) and a company of goyim (nations) will be from you

Exodus 9:24
...since Egypt became a goy (nation)

Exodus 19:6
and you (Hebrews, Israelites) will become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy goy (nation)

Isaiah 1:4
Woe, sinful goy (nation), a people (Yahudah) heavy with perversity, a seed of evildoers, sons who corrupt...

Jeemiah 7:28
But you shall say to them (Israel, Yahudah), This is the goy that does not obey the voice of YHUH their Eloah, nor receive instruction...

Jeremiah 31:36
If these ordinances depart from before me says YHUH, the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a goy (nation) before me all the days.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
So says YHUH, Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the goyim (nations), there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.

And I will make them one goy in the land on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two goyim (nations) anymore; and they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.

**Thummim** · 03-21-2001, 10:10 AM

YHWH bless you Marietta, the problem with a kabbalistic translation, is that you have to be a kabbalist to understand it. You use 56 words to explain the 19 words of Isa. (56:6). Adding words is not at all a bad idea if they lead to a better understanding. Few people are kabbalists though. Let’s say that a thousand people were given your translation and asked to explain it. If your translation led the thousand students to some understanding of your translation, there would be at least a thousand different interpretations given. I think that I’ve discovered how YHWH confounded the world’s languages. He taught them all kabbalah, but not how to understand it. Now I do not want to mock kabbalah. I’ve gained a little bit of understanding from what you’ve taught me. I personally like to translate individual words, rather than do a letter by letter breakdown of a sentence. It is the nature of hebrew to allow bringing many different words out of a line of text. When torah was written, the words of text were not divided by spaces. The running together of the hebrew letters requires that a person be able to recognise words, and the final forms of letters, to break down a sentence. Violating the rules allows for a diversity of translations to be found for each sentence structure. This is all a very complex way of saying, “I don’t get it!”. The following is an experts translation of the hebrew into english from Isa.56:6. The Kohlenberger translation into english goes like this, [*and-sons-of* *the-foreigner* *the-ones-binding-themselves* *to* *YHWH* *to-serve-him* *and-to-love* *name-of* *YHWH* *and-to-be * *to-him* *as-worshipers* *every-of* *one-keeping* *sabbath* *without-to-desecrate-her* *and-ones-holding-fast* *to-covenant-of-me.*] Compare this with your translation, [therefore within wailing if he-lamb if to his sea upper hand opening secured doorway unto ministry therefore in exausted in her with existing hand opening secured doorway unto existance to him mockery out of sea the likeness of watcher which daughter profaned therefore and from breast existing within breaking open to radiate hand itself working.] I acknowledge that this may be revelatory to a kabbalist. But to me, and I suppose many others, it only brings confusion. I wish that I could understand it. I wish that I knew kabbalah. I don’t want to mock your translation. There is a kind of sense to it. But I do not believe that this is what the author was trying to convey. I’m glad that we have a kabbalist on the forum. If I run into a dead end, you might open up a door of understanding to me. I’ve surely ran into my share of dead ends. I find it unlikely that hebrew ever died. But if you can reference this knowledge, I would be glad to investigate it.
I didn’t say that it was alright to eat the flesh of humans. I said that YHWH gave the flesh of animals to Noah for meat. Peshach is coming up. It was custom to eat the flesh of a lamb slaughtered for passover and leave none for the morning. This seems to be a command from YHWH to eat meat. There are many verses written which show that the priesthood ate meat. As to the mitzvah that says,"do not (kill), it is better to use the word "murder". Murder is a word that infers law. I also can show you much killing within the text of the tanakh, that has YHWH saying (kill). After all, what is to become of the inhabitance of the land of Canaan? So is YHWH saying, “Do not kill”? Why would he contradict himself? {Go kill, but do not kill}? I have to except, {do not murder} as my interpretation of this mitzvah. ....Michael

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