(part one)
It is difficult for me to call myself a "messianic jew" as I am finding myself estranged to their normative doctrine, but in actuality it is not "messianic" doctrine I have a problem with, but rather doctrine of those who are simply christians who call themselves messianics. I hardly know of any messianics who believe in the trinity. Those who do usually are christians in disguise.
Well, this argument can be saved for later. Allow me to share my perspective on the "trinity" or the nature of "j-sus" (Yeshua or Yehoshua).
I will first make mention of the word "G-d".
Theos, El, Elohim, and G-d all do not necessarily refer to the one true G-d of all. These words are symbolic of authority.
Money can be your g-d, we are called g-ds over this earth, and even Moshe was called a g-d over Pharoh. The word g-d itself does not mean the Most High. The usage of it however, has become just that, at least in modern english society. Three easy examples to prove this are found in scripture, and there are many more within.
1) "I said You are 'g-ds'; you are all sons of the Most High." Psalms 82:6
Here we are called g-ds, the sons of the Most High are g-ds.
2) "For even if there are so called g-ds, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many 'g-ds' and many 'l-rds', yet for us there is but one G-d, the Father, from whom all things came..." I Cor. 8:4&5
Here Shaul makes an observation that there are many g-ds and l-rds. He declares that the Father is the one G-d, and later on the verse, states that His son, Y'shua, is our l-rd.
3) "Then the YHVH said to Moses, 'See, I have made you the G-d to Pharoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet."
(before I state anything else it is good to note that there is a mis-translation here, it should read, "I have made you 'a' g-d to Pharoh, none the less, either way proves my point)
We can see that the term "G-d" is not always in reference to The Most High.
But as stated before it's meaning is that of authority.
I must lay out this foundation before I continue as well:
Y'shua IS a G-d to us. He has been given authority over us. He is our redeemer, and salvation can come through no other means but his blood. He has been given the name above all names in creation. Every knee will bow and every tounge confess, that he IS our l-rd. He is the only way to the Father, no other. He is means in which we receive all things from the Father... all things.
Now I will continue.
First, I will simply go through many scriptures, giving explanation along the way...
"Y'shua said "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my G-d and to your G-d.'" Yochanan 20:17
here Y'shua points out clearly that the same father we have, he has. The same G-d we have, he has.
Many christians argue that this is because he is here on the earth in his flesh. He is G-d in the flesh. (there is NO scripture for this idea by the way, as I will point out) But how about in heaven? He is no longer 'in the flesh' in heaven. What is the excuse now?
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my G-d. Never agin will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my G-d, and the name ofm the city of my G-d..." Rev. 3:11&12
Here Y'shua goes on to call the Father 'my G-d' FIVE times. There are even things in which Y'shua does not know, EVEN in heaven! He knows not the time of his own returning. He declares only the Father knows this. My main bone to pick with the "trinity" doctrine is the co-equality. If there is truly co-equality among the trinity, why is Yshua STILL praying for us???? Why does he STILL call the Father G-d??? Why are there things in which he STILL does not know???? With the "trinity" doctrine this makes no sense. Y'shua is no longer in the flesh. So what explaination can christians make up to replace these scriptures? Maybe it's because there is no such thing as the "trinity" doctrine in reality... just maybe, let us see....
"After Y'shua said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
'Father the time has now come. Glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. For yo granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this eternal life, that they may know You, the only true G-d"
Yochanan 17:1-3
The first thing is the obvious one. Y'shua declares to His Father that He is the ONLY TRUE G-D! There is none other. The L-rd our G-d, The Lord is one. And Y'shua declared the Father to be him!
The second thing to note is that Y'shua said the father "granted him authority". Question, did he have it before it was granted to him? This is foolish to think such. Obviously the Father has "given" him the authority he has. Does this then negate the authority he has? Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!! We must still acknowledge the authority of the Meshiachk.
This idea continues on through the rest of the chapter,
"I have given them the glory that you gave me..."
"and to see my glory, the glory you have given me, because you loved me before the creation of the world..."
John 17:22&24
This verse also dispels the idea that most non-trinitarians have, that Y'shua did not pre-exist. He quite certainly did, but before creation of the world.
So then, did he pre-exist everything, and co-exist with the Father, and had no point of origin?
Let's see....
"He is an image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For through him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible..." Col. 1:15
Here we see that he was the "fist born" of all creation. Then through him (some translations say 'by him') the rest of creation came into being. As we can see when it says "Let us create man in our image".
The idea of Y'shua being the ceator is expressed in many of Y'shua's healings. For example: Y'shua used mud to heal a blind man. Actually, in the greek it said he had no eyes. Man was made out of dirt. Dirt was used when Y'shua spit on the ground, and then formed eyes in the man's head. This is why the crowd had such a big reaction. His creative ability was on display, and not just healing.
But back to the topic at hand....
The word begotten. It does not simply mean "created", this is a misconception.
There are two very specific parts of the definition of the word 'begotten'.
One is that something from the first must come to make the second. And the second, is that the second must be of the same type as the first.
For example: If I make a molding out of clay of myself, it is not begotten. But if I have a son, he is begotten. He came from my sperm, and he is human, like myself... his DNA structure is the same.
So, we can also see clearly from scripture that Y'shua is the ONLY begotten son of the Father, and he was born first.
Before anything came into it's being, the Father took a part of himself and formed his Son, Y'shua. Y'shua is of the same nature or form as the Father.
So in this we can see that he pre-existed, has the same nature as the Father, and has quite a unique personhood to him, in that he is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father. (Ironically, this fits perfectly within ancient Kaballah thought, for those of you who have studied such things.)
It is difficult for me to call myself a "messianic jew" as I am finding myself estranged to their normative doctrine, but in actuality it is not "messianic" doctrine I have a problem with, but rather doctrine of those who are simply christians who call themselves messianics. I hardly know of any messianics who believe in the trinity. Those who do usually are christians in disguise.
Well, this argument can be saved for later. Allow me to share my perspective on the "trinity" or the nature of "j-sus" (Yeshua or Yehoshua).
I will first make mention of the word "G-d".
Theos, El, Elohim, and G-d all do not necessarily refer to the one true G-d of all. These words are symbolic of authority.
Money can be your g-d, we are called g-ds over this earth, and even Moshe was called a g-d over Pharoh. The word g-d itself does not mean the Most High. The usage of it however, has become just that, at least in modern english society. Three easy examples to prove this are found in scripture, and there are many more within.
1) "I said You are 'g-ds'; you are all sons of the Most High." Psalms 82:6
Here we are called g-ds, the sons of the Most High are g-ds.
2) "For even if there are so called g-ds, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many 'g-ds' and many 'l-rds', yet for us there is but one G-d, the Father, from whom all things came..." I Cor. 8:4&5
Here Shaul makes an observation that there are many g-ds and l-rds. He declares that the Father is the one G-d, and later on the verse, states that His son, Y'shua, is our l-rd.
3) "Then the YHVH said to Moses, 'See, I have made you the G-d to Pharoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet."
(before I state anything else it is good to note that there is a mis-translation here, it should read, "I have made you 'a' g-d to Pharoh, none the less, either way proves my point)
We can see that the term "G-d" is not always in reference to The Most High.
But as stated before it's meaning is that of authority.
I must lay out this foundation before I continue as well:
Y'shua IS a G-d to us. He has been given authority over us. He is our redeemer, and salvation can come through no other means but his blood. He has been given the name above all names in creation. Every knee will bow and every tounge confess, that he IS our l-rd. He is the only way to the Father, no other. He is means in which we receive all things from the Father... all things.
Now I will continue.
First, I will simply go through many scriptures, giving explanation along the way...
"Y'shua said "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my G-d and to your G-d.'" Yochanan 20:17
here Y'shua points out clearly that the same father we have, he has. The same G-d we have, he has.
Many christians argue that this is because he is here on the earth in his flesh. He is G-d in the flesh. (there is NO scripture for this idea by the way, as I will point out) But how about in heaven? He is no longer 'in the flesh' in heaven. What is the excuse now?
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my G-d. Never agin will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my G-d, and the name ofm the city of my G-d..." Rev. 3:11&12
Here Y'shua goes on to call the Father 'my G-d' FIVE times. There are even things in which Y'shua does not know, EVEN in heaven! He knows not the time of his own returning. He declares only the Father knows this. My main bone to pick with the "trinity" doctrine is the co-equality. If there is truly co-equality among the trinity, why is Yshua STILL praying for us???? Why does he STILL call the Father G-d??? Why are there things in which he STILL does not know???? With the "trinity" doctrine this makes no sense. Y'shua is no longer in the flesh. So what explaination can christians make up to replace these scriptures? Maybe it's because there is no such thing as the "trinity" doctrine in reality... just maybe, let us see....
"After Y'shua said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
'Father the time has now come. Glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. For yo granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this eternal life, that they may know You, the only true G-d"
Yochanan 17:1-3
The first thing is the obvious one. Y'shua declares to His Father that He is the ONLY TRUE G-D! There is none other. The L-rd our G-d, The Lord is one. And Y'shua declared the Father to be him!
The second thing to note is that Y'shua said the father "granted him authority". Question, did he have it before it was granted to him? This is foolish to think such. Obviously the Father has "given" him the authority he has. Does this then negate the authority he has? Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!! We must still acknowledge the authority of the Meshiachk.
This idea continues on through the rest of the chapter,
"I have given them the glory that you gave me..."
"and to see my glory, the glory you have given me, because you loved me before the creation of the world..."
John 17:22&24
This verse also dispels the idea that most non-trinitarians have, that Y'shua did not pre-exist. He quite certainly did, but before creation of the world.
So then, did he pre-exist everything, and co-exist with the Father, and had no point of origin?
Let's see....
"He is an image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For through him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible..." Col. 1:15
Here we see that he was the "fist born" of all creation. Then through him (some translations say 'by him') the rest of creation came into being. As we can see when it says "Let us create man in our image".
The idea of Y'shua being the ceator is expressed in many of Y'shua's healings. For example: Y'shua used mud to heal a blind man. Actually, in the greek it said he had no eyes. Man was made out of dirt. Dirt was used when Y'shua spit on the ground, and then formed eyes in the man's head. This is why the crowd had such a big reaction. His creative ability was on display, and not just healing.
But back to the topic at hand....
The word begotten. It does not simply mean "created", this is a misconception.
There are two very specific parts of the definition of the word 'begotten'.
One is that something from the first must come to make the second. And the second, is that the second must be of the same type as the first.
For example: If I make a molding out of clay of myself, it is not begotten. But if I have a son, he is begotten. He came from my sperm, and he is human, like myself... his DNA structure is the same.
So, we can also see clearly from scripture that Y'shua is the ONLY begotten son of the Father, and he was born first.
Before anything came into it's being, the Father took a part of himself and formed his Son, Y'shua. Y'shua is of the same nature or form as the Father.
So in this we can see that he pre-existed, has the same nature as the Father, and has quite a unique personhood to him, in that he is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father. (Ironically, this fits perfectly within ancient Kaballah thought, for those of you who have studied such things.)
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