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The Crucified Saviour

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  • don
    replied
    Re: Humm! How About That!

    Originally posted by Spying
    Hi Old Shepherd,

    Sir, good morning to you and happy Sabbath. If you don't mind me answering, I would say that it is improving dramatically in Sandy's eyes. Thus far, this is a show piece thread. You have an individual presenting certain information which is designed to cast Messiah and those who believe in him in the worst possible light. You have another individual who chimes in showing his interest who loves that Messiah is being cast in a bad light, but he like you desires to have some documentation. Well, you have given him that documentation. Now, we will see if I am granted the privilege of locking up another thread, won't we?

    Sincerely, Spying

    ==============================================

    Spying

    The Babyonian Mystery Religions go all the way back to Nimrod
    and they are still here today under the Guise of a thing known as christianity.

    All of these so-called Savior gawds were a part of the mystery religion system.

    The Latest version but of course is the J.E.Z.U.S CHRIST of Christianity.

    The RELIGION Christianity came from a dude known as Emperor Constantine and his Gawd was the SUN gawd Mirthras who he managed to confuse with Sol Deus and Christos.

    He is also the dude that set in motion the TRINITY doctrine [in 325] of his new religion known as Catholicism,which at that time was a blend of all three of these cults.

    As time went on his church following in his personal foot steps they contunied to assorb more and more pagan ways ,gawds and practices.


    If you look at factual history the rest of Christianity came from this pagan church that Constantine had built.


    [And I am referring to the Institutions known by that Name]

    Even the NT scriptures where cannonized by this church in 367 or 397 (I forget which) and there truly wasn't a thing known as the NT until that time.


    The jesuit is a master at half truths and out and out right LIES.

    Don't be fooled by him!


    His history is long and sorted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spying
    replied
    Humm! How About That!

    Hi Old Shepherd,

    Sir, good morning to you and happy Sabbath. If you don't mind me answering, I would say that it is improving dramatically in Sandy's eyes. Thus far, this is a show piece thread. You have an individual presenting certain information which is designed to cast Messiah and those who believe in him in the worst possible light. You have another individual who chimes in showing his interest who loves that Messiah is being cast in a bad light, but he like you desires to have some documentation. Well, you have given him that documentation. Now, we will see if I am granted the privilege of locking up another thread, won't we?

    Sincerely, Spying

    Leave a comment:


  • OldShepherd
    replied
    More Info on the so-called 16 Crucified Saviors.

    Sandy,

    And anyone else who claims to be looking for the truth. Here are two more sites which expose Kersey Graves, "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors", published in 1850 (+/-), for the piece of doggy doo that it is. This first link is Infidels.Org, a group of admittedly anti-Christian, anti-Bible, Infidels (as their name implies). The entire book can be read at this site. And while this group would do almost anything to destroy or undermine the Bible and Christianity, this is the disclaimer at the top of each chapter of the book at their site. Even they caution readers to not trust anything in the book.

    "Note: the scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous freethinkers; the inclusion of The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors in the Secular Web's Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book."

    http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...sey_graves/16/

    http://www.messianicart.com/chazak/copycatvirgin.htm

    Sandy, just curious, how is my credibility now?

    Leave a comment:


  • OldShepherd
    replied
    You Have GOT to be kidding! Kool Aid anyone?

    Hello Sandy,

    I saw this thread linked over at another forum by Thummin. Every so often someone posts this nonsense on some forum or other, just anything to trash Christianity. I don't know how many times I have exposed this garbage. Like a lot of other garage sale/flea market books. The so-called "Sixteen Crucified Saviors" is a reprint of a 19th century book. It not used as a text or reference in any school, college or university. And the reason is that it is not researched or documented. I have searched for the first five names you listed Tammuz, Wittoba of the Telingonesic, Iao of Nepal, Queszacoatl, and Quirinius, in the Encyclopedia Mythica, and through a web search. Here are the results. Not one of them are said to be crucified, none, nada, zero. Not one of these so-called crucified saviors was a savior of anything. None, nada, zero. And only one resurrects.

    http://www.pantheon.org/search.html

    Some people will believe anything, so long as it reaffirms their prejudices, presuppositions, and assumptions. Any kind of trash book or web site. The only requirement, it must trash and bash Christianity.

    Tammuz. The Akkadian vegetation-god, counterpart of the Sumerian Damuzi and the symbol of death and rebirth in nature. He is the son of Ea. and husband of Ishtar. Each year he dies in the hot summer (in the month tammus, June/July) and his soul is taken by the Gallu demons to the underworld. Woe and desolation fall upon the earth, and Ishtar leads the world in lamentation. She then descends to the nether world, ruled by Ereshkigal, and after many trials succeeds in bringing him back, as a result of which fertility and joy return to the earth. In Syria he was identified with Adonis.

    http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/t/tammuz.html

    The cult of Dumuzi the Shepherd (Uruk, fourth millennium BC) "comprises both happy celebration of the marriage of the god with Inanna (who, originally, it seems, was the goddess of the communal storehouse) and bitter laments when he dies as the dry heat of summer yellows the pastures and lambing, calving, and milking come to an end.:
    - Thorkild Jacobsen, The Treasures of Darkness

    http://www.fireplug.net/~rshand/rest...ts/tammuz.html

    (tن´mz), ancient nature deity worshiped in Babylonia. A god of agriculture and flocks, he personified the creative powers of spring. He was loved by the fertility goddess Ishtar, who, according to one legend, was so grief-stricken at his death that she contrived to enter the underworld to get him back. According to another legend, she killed him and later restored him to life. These legends and his festival, commemorating the yearly death and rebirth of vegetation, corresponded to the festivals of the Phoenician and Greek Adonis and of the Phrygian Attis. The Sumerian name of Tammuz was Dumuzi. In the Bible his disappearance is mourned by the women of Jerusalem (Ezek. 8.14).

    http://www.bartleby.com/65/ta/Tammuz.html

    Wittoba of the Telingonesic

    Encyclopedia Mythica Nothing Found! Only references online quotes from "Sixteen Crucified Savior."

    Iao of Nepal

    Iao. The Polynesian name for the Supreme Being. See Io. (Ency Myth)

    Io. The supreme god of the Maori and other Polynesian peoples. Io ("core") is considered to be 'all-knowing' and 'eternal' and his name may only be whispered. Io consists of both a male (Te Io Ora) and female (Io Wahine) substance. He dwells above the sky in Te Toi-o-nga-Rango, the highest heaven of the twelve upper worlds. (Ency Myth)

    Quezalcoatl of Mexico 587 BC.

    Encyclopedia Mythica Nothing Found!

    "Deciding on a ruse, Texcatlipoca crept into Quetzalcoatl's sanctuary with two minor gods, also evil, and frightened him by demonstrating a new invention: the mirror. Feigning friendliness, they disguised him by covering his body with red paint, feathers and a mask. They served him a delicious meal and Texcatlipoca persuaded Quetzalcoatl to drink a beverage of pulque mixed with honey. The concoction made him drunk and the conspirators then slipped a beautiful dancing girl into his room. He awoke the next morning with a hangover and the horrible realization that he had broken his priestly vow of chastity.

    Tormented with remorse, Quetzalcoatl wandered in self-imposed exile for twenty years and then ended up near what is today the Gulf port of Coatzocoalcos. There he said goodbye to a loyal band of weeping disciples, promising to return at some future time. He sailed for Yucatan, where he became equally admired by the Maya, who called him Kulkulcan. Finally, some thirty years later, he died by immolating himself on a self-made funeral pyre."

    http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/histo...tzalcoatl.html

    Quirinius of Rome 506 BC.

    Encyclopedia Mythica Nothing Found! Only references online, quotes from "Sixteen Crucified Savior."


    Below is a short excerpt from a lengthy well documented, and researched refutation of all sixteen supposedly crucified, alleged saviors. This documents that none, as in zero of them were crucified.

    Sixteen Saviors Crucified

    One of the favorite anti-missionary tactics is to make up lies about what pagans believe and claim that there are pagan stories that the gospels were derived from. There is a list of 16 "Crucified Saviours" going around the internet that contains one lie after another about supposed "gods" that were "crucified" the same way Y'shua was. The list is...
    1.. Krishna of India, 1200 BC
    2.. Sakia of Hinduism, 600 BC
    3.. Thammuz of Syria, 1160 BC
    4.. Wittoba of Tellingonesic, 552 BC
    5.. Iao of Nepaul, 622 BC
    6.. Hesus of Celtic Druids, 834 BC
    7.. Quexalcote of Mexico, 587 BC
    8.. Quirinus of Rome, 506 BC
    9.. AESCHYLUS) PROMETHEUS, 547 BC
    10.. Thulis of Egypt, 1700 BC
    11.. Indra of Tibet, 725 BC
    12.. Alcestos of Euripides, 600 BC
    13.. Atys, Attis of Phrygia , 1170 BC
    14.. Crite of Chaldea, 1200 BC
    15.. Bali of Orissa , 725 BC
    16.. Mithra of Persia, 600 BC

    One basically problem with this list is that there's no legend that ANY of them were crucified. www.brittanica.com gives Quirinius as the name given to Romulus after he was deified. Roman legend does not teach he was crucified, rather it teaches that one day, during a storm, the god of war carried him to heaven - thus the Roman legend is that Quirinius never died. Yet he's listed in Kersey Graves' "16 crucified saviours". Sakia died of old age at the age of 80 due to natural causes. Krishnah was killed in battle by an arrow, not crucified. Thammuz was killed by a wild boar, not crucified. Atys/Attis was said to have (accidently) killed himself when he castrated himself in a moment of madness (and caused more injury than he intended to himself). And Roman legend teaches that Prometheus was immortal and thus never died because he COULD NOT die.

    Yet all these "gods" are listed in Kersey Graves' "16 Crucified Saviours" as pagan legends that are strikingly similar to the story of the crucifixion of Y'shua. Where's the similarity to any of them???? I searched, but could find no record of Indra of Hinduism ever dying. Hesus was never considered human, and thus never subject to death. No record of him dying as a "god" either. Iao is a transliteration of the Name of the G-d of Israel. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-03.htm gives one explanation of how Iao was derived from YHWH and http://www.angelfire.com/nm/YAHUAHSHUA/ lists "Iao" as a variant of "YHWH" / "YHW". So any account one may have come up with comparing a "God" named "Iao" with Y'shua may simply be a pagan description of who the G-d of Israel was.

    Our only source for 5 of these "gods" is from anti-missionary sources. In other words, there's no record of these 5 ever existing in the records of history and may have been complete fabrications of Graves, Higgs, or other haters of the gospel. These 5 are... 1.. Quexiacote 2.. Thulis 3.. Alcestos 4.. Bali 5.. Crite


    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Teshuv...k/message/5640

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Thank you Sandy, for the information. I've written it down. This sounds like something that I've got to read. The material within is startling. You come up with some very interesting facts. Christianity seems to have traveled a well used road. ....Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Hi thummim
    The information comes from a book called:

    World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours
    by Kersey Graves



    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Sandy, this is interesting material. Do you have a book on the gods? Where did you get this materal? I would like to quote some of these things once in a while, but I would have to reference it so others could look it up for themselves. So the christian plan for saving the worlds peoples had already been tried many times before. I guess that this makes christianities version just another attempt at previous failures. This isn't the kind of information that christians would want to hear about. Shabbot Shalom, ....Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • Sandy
    started a topic The Crucified Saviour

    The Crucified Saviour

    Tammuz of Mesopotamia 1160 BC.
    Tammuz was a god of Assyria, Babylonia and Sumeria where he was known as Dumuzi. He is commemorated in the name of the month of June, Du'uzu, the fourth month of a year which begins at the spring equinox. The fullest history extant of this saviour is probably that of Ctesias (400 BC), author of Persika. The poet has perpetuated his memory in rhyme.
    Trust, ye saints, your Lord restored,
    Trust ye in your risen Lord;
    For the pains which Tammuz endured
    Our salvation have procured.
    Tammuz was crucified as an atonement offering:
    Trust ye in God, for out of his loins salvation has come unto us.
    Julius Firmicus speaks of this God rising from the dead for the salvation of the world. This saviour which long preceded the advent of Christ, filled the same role in sacred history.

    Wittoba of the Telingonesic 552 BC.
    Wittoba is represented in his story with nail-holes in his hands and the soles of his feet. Nails, hammers and pincers are constantly seen represented on his crucifixes and are objects of adoration among his followers, just as the iron crown of Lombardy has within it a nail claimed to be of his true original cross, and is much admired and venerated for that reason. The worship of this crucified God prevails chiefly in the Travancore and other southern states of India in the region of Madura.

    Iao of Nepal 622 BC.
    The Celtic Druids depict their god Hesus as having been crucified with a lamb on one side and an elephant on the other, and that this occurred long before the Christian era.

    The elephant, being the largest animal known, was chosen to represent the magnitude of the sins of the world, while the lamb, from its proverbial innocent nature, was chosen to represent the innocence of the victim, the god offered as a propitiatory sacrifice. We have the Lamb of God taking away the sins of the world. This legend was found in Gaul long before Jesus Christ was known to history.

    Quezalcoatl of Mexico 587 BC.
    Historical authority of the crucifixion of this Mexican god is explicit, unequivocal and ineffaceable. The evidence is tangible, and indelibly engraven upon metal plates. One of these plates represents him as having been crucified on a mountain. Another represents him as having been crucified in the heavens, as St Justin tells us Christ was. Sometimes he is represented as having been nailed to a cross, sometimes with two thieves hanging with him, and sometimes as hanging with a cross in his hand.

    Quirinius of Rome 506 BC.
    The crucifixion of this Roman saviour is remarkable for the parallel features to that of the Judaean saviour, not only in the circumstances of his crucifixion, but also in much of his antecedent life.

    He is represented, like Christ:
    • As having been conceived and brought forth by a virgin.
    • His life was sought by the reigning king, Amulius.
    • He was of royal blood, his mother being of kingly descent.
    • He was put to death by wicked hands or crucified.
    • At his mortal exit the whole earth is said to have been enveloped in darkness, as in the case of Christ, Krishna, and Prometheus.
    • And finally he is resurrected, and ascends back to heaven.

    Prometheus 547 B.C.
    The crucifixion of Prometheus of Caucasus, described by Seneca, Hesiod, and other writers, states that he was nailed to an upright beam of timber, to which were affixed extended arms of wood, and that this cross was situated near the Caspian Straits. The modern story of this crucified God, which has him bound to a rock for thirty years, while vultures preyed upon his vitals, is a Christian fraud.

    The poet, in portraying his propitiatory offering, says:
    Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
    His all atoning blood,
    Is this the Infinite?–Yes, 'tis he,
    Prometheus, and a god!
    Well might the sun in darkness hide,
    And veil his glories in,
    When God, the great Prometheus, died
    For man the creature's sin.
    It is doubtful whether there is to be found in the whole range of Greek letters deeper pathos than that of the divine woe of the beneficent demigod Prometheus, crucified on his Scythian crags for his love to mortals. When he dies:
    • That the whole frame of nature became convulsed.
    • The earth shook, the rocks were rent, the graves were opened, and in a storm, which seemed to threaten the dissolution of the universe, the solemn scene forever closed, and Our Lord and saviour Prometheus gave up the ghost.
    The cause for which he suffered was his love for the human race. The whole story of Prometheus' crucifixion, burial and resurrection was acted in pantomime in Athens five hundred years before Christ, which proves its great antiquity. Minutius Felix, one of the most popular Christian writers of the second century addresses the people of Rome:
    Your victorious trophies not only represent a simple cross, but a cross with a man on it, and this man St. Jerome calls a god.
    Thulis of Egypt 1700 BC.
    Thulis of Egypt, whence comes Ultima Thule, died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago.

    Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the gods.

    This Egyptian saviour appears also to have been known as Zulis. His history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years BC of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple. Twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years he lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became the judge of the dead, or of souls in a future state. He came down from heaven to benefit mankind, and that he was said to be full of grace and truth.

    Indra of Tibet 725 BC.
    This Tibetan saviour is shown nailed to the cross. There are five wounds, representing the nail-holes and the piercing of the side. The antiquity of the story is beyond dispute.

    Marvellous stories are told of the birth of the Divine Redeemer. His mother was a virgin of black complexion, and hence his complexion was of the ebony hue, as in the case of Christ and some other sin-atoning saviours. He descended from heaven on a mission of benevolence, and ascended back to the heavenly mansion after his crucifixion. He led a life of strict celibacy, which, he taught, was essential to true holiness. He inculcated great tenderness toward all living beings. He could walk upon the water or upon the air; he could foretell future events with great accuracy. He practised the most devout contemplation, severe discipline of the body and mind, and completely subdued his passions. He was worshiped as a god who had existed as a spirit from all eternity, and his followers were called Heavenly Teachers.

    Alcestos of Euripides 600 BC.
    A less usual crucified God was Alcestos, who was female, the only example of a feminine God atoning for the sins of the world upon the cross. The doctrine of the trinity and atoning offering for sin was inculcated as a part of her religion.

    Attis of Phrygia 1170 BC.
    Speaking of this crucified Messiah, the Anacalypsis informs us that several histories are given of him, but all concur in representing him as having been an atoning offering for sin. And the Latin phrase suspensus lingo, found in his history, indicates the manner of his death. He was suspended on a tree, crucified, buried and rose again.

    Crite of Chaldaea 1200 BC.
    The Chaldeans have noted in their sacred books the crucifixion of a god with the above name. He was also known as the Redeemer, and was styled the Ever Blessed Son of God, the saviour of the Race, the Atoning Offering for an Angry God. When he was offered up, both heaven and earth were shaken to their foundations.

    Bali of Orissa 725 BC.
    In Orissa, in Asia, they have the story of a crucified God, known by several names, including the above, all of which, we are told, signify Lord Second, his being the second person or second member of the trinity. Most of the crucified gods occupied that position in a trinity of gods, the Son, in all cases, being the atoning offering. This God Bali was also called Baliu, and sometimes Bel. Monuments of this crucified God, bearing great age, may be found amid the ruins of the magnificent city of Mahabalipore, partially buried amongst the figures of the temple.

    Mithras of Persia 600 BC.
    This Persian God was slain upon the cross to make atonement for mankind, and to take away the sins of the world. He was born on the twenty-fifth day of December, and crucified on a tree. Christian writers both speak of his being slain, and yet both omit to speak of the manner in which he was put to death.

    Devatat of Siam, Ixion of Rome, Apollonius of Tyana in Cappadocia, are all reported to have died on the cross."

    Ixion, 400 BC, was crucified on a wheel, the rim representing the world, and the spokes constituting the cross. He bore the burden of the world, the sins of the world, on his back while suspended on the cross. He was therefore called the crucified spirit of the world.

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