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  • #16
    Baruch hashem simchat_torah. Fortunately, I don't think that their are many here that put their faith into something as offensive as replacement theology. I doubt that even Spying can except such dogma. I do not want to imply that he does. Replacement theology is virulent antisemitsm to me. Christianity definately hasn't been a blessing to the JEWish people. I think that the other faiths along with their gods, even if combined in their oppression of JEWs, haven't harmed JEWs half as much as the faith of christianity. Christianity, by defining JEWs as "unsaved killers of (jesus), have made their faith like a fatal virus to this people of YHWH. There's a reason that christianity has been so caustic to JEWs. The Yahudeem have had about as much to do with the death of (jesus) as Americans have had to do with the death of Abraham Lincoln. Through most of the oppression that JEWs have known, they have been surrounded by christians. Now christians are starting to think of themselves as fellow JEWs in (jesus). As you have noted, there were very few of these [brethren] during the holocaust. Why are JEWs usually surrounded by christians while their oppression rages on? Doesn't this show that christianity has not earned a place in the name of YHWH? I'm forced to mention that there were some christians who stood by the JEWs and defended them during the holocaust. The Yahudeem save the names of these people and guard them jealously. If there is really such a thing as saints, these few must be deserving of the title. I've enjoyed reading your various posts. Keep it up. ....Michael


    • #17
      Michael, thank you very much. Shalom to you this day.

      P.S. How exactly would you define your beliefs?
      Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu, Melech HaOlam

      "Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165


      • #18
        This is only for those who are interested in persecutionof the Jews by the ch-rch. Read on only if
        you have a strong stomach.

        I have only highlighted a FEW of the things that have happened through history.
        Beware, if you read beyond this point you may be disgusted.....]

        325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter
        from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond
        measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of
        the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious

        367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people
        who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

        380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue;
        he referred to it as
        "an act pleasing to God.

        415: St.Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot,
        who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures
        and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

        418: St.Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of
        a synagogue:

        "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's
        fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable
        disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it

        694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of
        the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen,
        Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual
        slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of

        1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes

        1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal
        of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a
        second target.
        As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large
        numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or
        12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade.
        This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

        1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central
        synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back
        into the burning building.

        1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that
        "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude
        because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose
        death they wickedly conspire,
        they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the
        slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..." thus began the slavery of
        Jewish people to Catholics in the 13th century.

        1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews
        and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in
        the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished
        from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries
        (hmmm.... sounds familiar, eh nazis?)

        1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This
        requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the
        oval badge to a Star of David.

        1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The
        rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the
        rats to humans.
        As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five
        years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for
        its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for
        someone to blame.
        They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the
        disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws,
        which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that
        Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by
        poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder
        and burn the Jews.

        In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000;

        Rue Brule...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with
        wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." In Strausberg 2,000 Jews
        were burned.
        In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..."
        12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
        (the list goes on and on and on... sad isn't it)

        This is the last one....

        1543: Martin Luther, distressed by the reluctance of Jews to convert to
        Christianity wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :
        "What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?

        First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...

        Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed...
        They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.

        Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in
        which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.

        Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach
        any more...

        Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden
        to the Jews...

        Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables
        of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe

        May tears flow for the atrocities of the ch-rch. May healing come to those who have been hurt. May not the witness of the Moshiach be faded by the actions done it his name.

        Shalom and good night,
        Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu, Melech HaOlam

        "Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165


        • #19
          You wrote:
          >>One thing I do worry about, Marietta, is replacement theology springing from the idea of the Jews as a whole rejecting Y'shua.<<

          My reply:
          The way I see it, is that Y'shua taught only the Jews and it was the Jews who were his desciples, it was the Jews that welcomed him and spread his words and it was the Jews that spared their own lives for him.
          I think one of the greatest misunderstandings comes from the different thinking held as to what a Messiah is, was, or is to be. I think that maybe when this new religion (Christianity) was started they had a completely different view as to what the roll of the Messiah was to be, than the Jews held. Therefore they both believed but with different expectations.
          Just some things I have pondered and continue to ponder.



          • #20

            Shalom sister.

            "maybe when this new religion (Christianity) "

            lol lol LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

            I usually think such things but rarely say them in public.

            Much love,
            Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu, Melech HaOlam

            "Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165


            • #21
              Shalom simchat_torah. I believe that Yahudah is the parent name of YHWH. With that, I believe that those who persecute the name of Yahudah have no place in the name of YHWH. If you take the image of Eloheem and feed it the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, (this comes from he who decides what is good and evil [YHWH defines such things] ), than these become like YHWH. It's the name of YHWH that will not touch death. This name is the fruit from the tree of life, also. How is the name of YHWH like the name of Yahudah? Well, four of the five letters match. Odds, 22x22x22x22= 234,258 to one. The fourth letter of the hebrew aleph-bet is removed from the fourth position of the name of the fourth son of Leah and Jacob, fourth generation from Abraham. The heavens are made to testify of this through the coruption of the fourth day. Note that you cannot plant the earth before you create the sun, moon and stars. I believe that the letter withheld from the name of YHWH is the daleth from the name of Yahudah. Because this name belongs to David, it makes David a lot like GD (1ki.11:36). This is the true meaning of Isa.9:6 to me. The throne of David bears the name of GD. Thummim completes the name and allows the invoking of YHWH. Thummim means, to complete, Strongs 8550 (in the sense of perfecting knowledge). To put it more plainly, I believe that the tribe of David (Judah), bears the name of YHWH as goes with Deut.12:5. This name is the root of Jesse to me. I believe that you redeem all JEWs by linking their name to the name of their Eloheem. As your name goes, so goes your fate. The name of Yahudah will cease being a byword when all people come to realize that it is the name of GD. When this happens, the glory of YHWH will rise upon his people. I call the name of YHWH a circumcised version of the name of Yahudah. I've written other things concerning my faith, elsewhere in the forum. Basically I'm a JEW in faith. I observe the sabboth, eat kosher and try to keep mitzvah as do other JEWs. My faith binds me to the JEWish people and my faith is JEWish. The chief difference in my faith comes in my belief that there is a connection between the name of YHWH and the people of Israel. Thus they shall link my name with the people of Israel (literally the sons of Israel -bani-), and I will bless them. Nu.6:27 When JEWs were made guilty for being JEWs, they were made guilty for the name of their Eloheem. The name of YHWH is the name of salvation. It cannot become unrighteous. This is how the seed of Israel can become -all righteous. Their righteousness is of me says YHWH. Isa.54:17 ....Michael


              • #22
                If Iesous/Jesus/Yeshua is the messiah and the New Testament is the New Covenant:
                • Why is there no sign of the New/Renewed Covenant?
                • Why is the Anointed One of YHUH not ruling and reigning in Jerusalem?
                • Why is the Talmud and Mishna etc. needed if the Torah is written on their heart?
                • Why are there so many Jewish sects?
                • Why are not Israel and Yahudah one nation dwelling on the land as promised, stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates?
                • Why is everyone still running to and fro teaching his neighbor and his brother about YHUH and even arguing about his name?
                • Why isn't YHUH'S dwelling place and sanctuary in their midst?
                • Why are they not secure on their land?
                • Why isn't Israel and Yahudah one nation and one kingdom?
                • Why are the sins of Israel still remembered?
                • Why haven't the Jewish people removed all the hateful things and all the abominations from the land of Israel?
                • etc., etc., etc.

                Jeremiah 31:33
                BUT THIS WILL BE the Covenant that I will cut with the House of Israel after those days, declares YHUH:
                • I will put My Torah in their inward parts and I will write it on their hearts.
                • I will be their Elohim and they will be My people.
                • They will no longer teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know YHUH, because they will all know Me. From the least of them to the greatest of them...
                • I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sins no more.
                Jeremiah 32
                37) Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands where I have driven them in my anger and in my fury, in great indignation. And I will again bring them to this place, and I will make them live in safety.
                38) And they will be my people and I will be their Elohim.
                39) And I will give them one heart and one pathway, that they may fear me all the days, for good to them and to their sons after them.
                40) I will cut an everlasting covenant with them. I will not turn away from them, to do good them. I will put my fear in their heart that they will not depart from me.
                41) I will rejoice over them, to do good to them. I will truly plant them in this land with all my heart and with all my soul.
                42) For YHUH says, As I have brought all that great evil on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I spoke to them.

                Ezekiel 11
                16)...Though I have sent them far off among the nations and scattered them among the lands, yet I was to them as a little sanctuary in the lands where they had gone.
                17) Therefore say, So says YHUH, I will gather you from the people and assemble you from out of the lands, in those where you were scattered; and I will give to you the land of Israel.
                18) And they will remove all its hateful things and all its abominations from it.
                19) I will give to them one heart and I will put a new spirit within them, and I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh and I will give thema heart of flesh.
                20) So that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them. And they will be my people and I will be their Elohim.



                • #23

                  Hello Sandy and Thummim.

                  Sandy, I don't know if I will get to your post tonight, for I am dog tired, but we will see. But definately tommorow afternoon if not tonight. I do have some thoughts and ideas for you to ponder in light of what you just posted.

                  First I would like to ask Thummim a few questions, and make a few comments.

                  questions first:
                  1. How do you derive the name "Yahudah"?

                  2. The version of Is. 9:6 you are referring to.... Is it the Masoratic or Septuigant? It makes a HUGE difference. First, I am not sure what you are implying upon the text (it simply wasn't stated clearly or I am dumb as a brick and didn't see it). If you could make that clear for this brick-head, that would help. Second, which text are you implying the conditions upon?

                  3. How is "Yahudah" a byword?

                  4. I am preposterously confused by this next statement:
                  "When JEWs were made guilty for being JEWs, they were made guilty for the name of their Eloheem."
                  What do you mean the Jews were made guilty, for being who they were. I am not sure what you mean by this.

                  Now comments:

                  1. The YHWH you refer to is commonly "mis" used. I'm not harking on you, it is just that I've seen this a lot lately. The letters in Hebrew are "Y-d H-y V-v H-y" creating Y-H-V-H. The 'W' comes from the mistransliteration into English. The english texts most commonly use Yahweh, a mispronounciation. Yahveh is the correct pronounciation. Just giving clarification here. Don't take it personally, YHWH is used A LOT, but is simply wrong. If you are going to use the tetragramtron, then why use the W? It just doesn't make logical sense.

                  2. What historical proof texts do you use to claim:
                  "that Yahudah is the parent name of YHWH"? The oldest text we have is a silver scroll of a partial text of a Psalm. This silver scroll is held in a museum on Princeton's campus. It has Y-H-V-H on this scroll. The next oldest text is a triagular stone near the Babylonian region, and it too uses Y-H-V-H. Then we also have the Dead Sea Scrolls, all of which use Y-H-V-H. I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that Yehudah is the parent name. Please do not think I am mocking, just curious. It is just quite a statement to say:
                  "I call the name of YHWH a circumcised version of the name of Yahudah. "

                  3. Simply because there are similarities between Yehudah and Y-H-V-H how do you know that Yehudah is the true name?

                  4. How is David made "a lot like G-d"? I am confused again at this statement. You used I Kings 11:36 as a proof text, it says:
                  " To his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a lamp always before me in Yerushalayim, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there."
                  How is David made like G-d?
                  I believe that the Tanach shows that David sits upon the throne of G-d, and is His annointed, but how is he made like G-d?

                  5. Duet. 12:5 "But to the place which Y-H-V-H your Elohim shall choose out of all your tribes, to put his name there, even to his habitation shall you seek, and there you shall come"
                  How does this show that the name Y-H-V-H makes His abode with Judah?

                  6. A Jew is not one who simply has faith that he is one. Many Jews will be quite offended at that. It is a covenant that is brought upon oneself, whether born Jewish or a Proselyte.

                  Finally, You said that the destiny of a Jew lies in their name. Well, my name, Japheth, means "Expressive Light" in Hebrew.

                  Shalom Thummim,

                  Last edited by simchat_torah; 03-15-2001, 05:57 PM.
                  Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu, Melech HaOlam

                  "Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165


                  • #24

                    I was right, I am now to tired to post an entire message. But just one comment/question should suffice my appetite. In light of my above post, why do you use "U" as compared to a "V"? Why YHUH instead of YHVH?

                    Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu, Melech HaOlam

                    "Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165


                    • #25
                      Good morning Japheth
                      I hope you are well rested and refreshed.
                      I appreciate your responses and find them interesting.

                      You asked:
                      why do you use "U" as compared to a "V"? Why YHUH instead of YHVH?
                      This to me is a very good example proving that the Covenant has not been renewed. We are still arguing over how to pronounce the Name.

                      Like Thummim, I do not feel that it is just coincidence that YHUH and YHUDH are so uniqely similar.

                      Do you use a "V" in the short form YHU?
                      How do you pronounce YHVH?

                      I personally see the letters YHUH like this:

                      Y= EE H= AH U= OO H= AH, which translates to YAH-OO-AH and YHUDH as YAH-OO-DAH.



                      • #26
                        Yahudah, نمهنé YHVDH
                        The name of GD, نهنé YHV H
                        I use the hebrew text, and use a "W" to capture the "U sound" in the name of Yahudah.The hebrew text that I use is the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia commonly known as the Stuttgart bible. Isa.9:6 in the KJV is Isa.9:5 in my hebrew text.In hebrew, it reads; : يهىù -ّù مٍ -éëà ّهëâ ىà ُàهé àىô هîù àّëéه هîëù -ىٍ نّùîن éنْه هًى -ïًْ ïل هًé -مىé مىé -éë
                        In a paraphrazed translation, it reads, "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will-be the-government on shoulder-of-him and-he-will-call name-of-him Wonder-of One-counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting Prince-of Peace
                        I get the name of the one setting on the throne of David as being called GD and father out of these verses. Now David sets down on his throne in the house of Judah (Yahudah).This is the tribe in which YHWH puts his name (Deut.12:5). It is in the tribe of Yahudah that a temple is built to tend "the name". It is the name "JEW" that has become a byword. The germans say "das juden". This is the reason that JEWs were gathered and slaughtered. Not because they are charged with any crime, Not because it was easy to recognise who is JEWish, but because they are JEWs. By byword, I mean a name without honor, simular to a racial slur. I believe that the name of YHWH is derived from the name of Yahudah, Four of the letters match, and in the same order. As I've stated, I see the odds of this simularity being 22 x 22 x 22 x 22= 234,258 to one.It is actually a little longer because of the letters ending up in the same order. Again, I use a "W" in my use of the letters
                        ن-ه-ن-é (YHVH) to denote the sound of a "U". It's just a matter of personal choice.If you remove the fourth letter from the name of Yahudah, you end up with the letters, ن هنé (YHVH)
                        The space that is left blank doesn't exist in the original hebrew. So if you write in the name of Yahudah, leaving out the
                        م, (D) in the same place that is occupied by the name of نهنé, (YHVH) nothing changes. David is like GD in that he lives forever if he can rise up to occupy his throne for ever. This is testified to in Jer.30:9, and also in Eze.34:23. Zechariah makes an interesting statement in Zech.12:8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as GD, as the angel of the LORD before them. David himself chooses the site to build a house for the name of YHWH. Ps. 78:67,68 addresses this. Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim: But he chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. and built his sanctuary - etc. Finally, if you allow your name to become defiled, you will pay a price for it. A good name is something to be treasured. ....Michael , the hebrew fonts that I used didn't come out right. They should read right to left. I've made a few changes for the sake of understanding.


                        • #27
                          Thummim, What you have written is very interestin and thought provoking to say the least.
                          The word Yahudah yod he vav daleth he: literally means: woe Veda ---OR--- converting to Judaism the.
                          I find it very interesting that if you combine the meanings they mean: Woe Veda converting to Judaism the blablabla whatever. So does the Veda hold the truth of real Judaism?
                          According to Kaballah God's name is made up of 72 letters, and then there is a shortened form of 32 and then the shortened form of 4. Also 'Once the name of God is pronounced by mankind, the world will end.'
                          God's true name is a string of vibration which has the power to transform anything. Thus, "in the 'name' you can say to this mountain to move over there and it will happen."
                          All the universe is made up of vibrations and the true name of God is a vibrational string that can distroy as well as make whole, but in the hands of the untrained it is pure distruction. Hence, YHWH, which means: 'hand of distruction', or-- 'woe! oh!'----
                          THE LITERAL MEANING OF YHWH:
                          -----hand opening secured doorway----
                          THE LITTERAL MEANING OF YHWDH
                          ---hand opening secured pouring down doorway---
                          The doorway between universes. "or" Is it the doorway of the Gods in the underworld? Where Satan is bound?



                          • #28
                            Baruch hashem Marietta. I'm always interested in hearing what anybody has to say concerning the name of YHWH. I look to see salvation come from the name of YHWH to all JEWs. The name of YHWH is the key to the strenth of GD as you seem to apply. I believe that this name is the right arm of YHWH. Without it, YHWH ceases to be the deliverer of his people. The tirshatha knew that the loss of this knowledge separated his people from the ability to make a righteous offering to YHWH. (Neh.7:65) Without the knowledge of Urim and Thummim, you cannot properly serve the name of YHWH. Why build a temple for the name of YHWH, if you've lost the knowledge that goes with this name? Yet with learning the name, you gain YHWH's presence. (Isa.52:6) YHWH cannot change his name without giving up his relationship to his people. His name is the same forever. By name, he is both father and husband to his people. The holocaust could not happen while YHWH stands guard over his people in the strenth of his right arm. I reason the knowledge of the sacred name to go with the secrets of Urim and Thummim. When one comes who understands these these things, Then that messenger of the covenant will purify the sons of Levi. .....Michael


                            • #29

                              Shalom to you this evening.

                              Again, I mean no disrespect, but there is a problem in the logics. You claim that Yahudah is the parent name of "Y-d H-y V-v H-y", the Tetragrammaton. But merely pointing out similarities shows not that it is the parrent. Rather the opposite could be said. That Y-H-V-H is the parent of Yahudah.

                              Because there are similarities does not denote one to be originator. It must me explicitly proven that one is the parent before making the conclusion. As stated previously, Y-H-V-H is the oldest, by far and away, name of G-d. It can be shown to date back to at lest 700 b.c.

                              Marietta has done her homework well, studying the Kabbalah. But honestly even Kabbalah is not accepted blanketly by traditional (Orthodox or Consevative) Jews.
                              It is taught that you must be of 40 years of age to study Kabbalah. There are deep mystical concepts that are drawn from Torah, and can only be seen if Torah has been studied very closely for a number of years. The 72 letter name of G-d is an addition that was adapted later on during the dark ages. It was not a part of the original Kabbalah. It was said that Y'shua was able to do his miracles because he was outside the Temple and heard the Kohen HaGodal speak the name. As you can see it is quite a ridiculous story, and the 72 letter name was adapted through this story.

                              There are however, more ancient tradtions that say that the Tetragrammaton is not HaShem's true name. That His 'true' name was known by the ancients and is now lost.

                              There are also many historical sources that show a possiblity of G-d's name being Yah. That the "Veh" was added as a form of respect, and it can be seen with other names. Such parial texts of Tehillim have surfaced with "Yah" being the name of G-d. However, again the most ancient texts we have available show that His name is the Tetragrammaton. Any theory outside this is just that.... a theory.


                              Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu, Melech HaOlam

                              "Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165


                              • #30
                                Shalom Sandy,

                                I have gone over many texts of this forum over the past couple of days. I seem to have a conclusion, but if I am incorrect, please let me know. You seem to not accept Y'shua as the Moshiach, and with good reasons too.

                                But allow me to just say that your rejection (if it exists, and it is not simply my imagination) comes from two sources.

                                1) "J-sus" and the teachings of him by the ch-rch.
                                2) an misunderstanding of who the Mashiach was to be according to Judaism.

                                The first can be saved for another thread. It can go in several directions.

                                But I'd like to tackle the second issue here.

                                ***What were the expectations of the Moshiach?***

                                I have seen in some of your posts that you see one of the Moshiach's purposes was to establish peace and another to establish a rulership.

                                There are two basic versions of the two Messiah theory:
                                1. The "rabbinic" two Messiah theory which held to a Messiah the son of Joseph, sometimes called "Ephraim." who would come and suffer to redeem his brothers (like the patriarch Joseph); and a Messiah the son of David who would come and rule from David's throne forever.
                                2. The "Qumran" two Messiah theory which held to a Priestly Aaronic Messiah and a Kingly Messiah.

                                I think that there are sages who equate these two theories into a single "dual" messiah theory. I would like to explore this idea further. Personally, as well as many ancient sages, I believe that the "dual" moshiachs are one. But this can be explored further later.

                                Let's just first examine Moshiach Ben Yosef and Moshiach Ben David.

                                The Rabbi's have always recognized an apparent conflict between certain Messianic passages. For example:

                                R. Alexandri said: Rabbi Joshua opposed two verses:
                                It is written:
                                And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds
                                of heaven. (Dan. 7:13)
                                Whilst it is written: [behold, your king comes to you...] lowly, and riding upon an ass! (Zech. 9:9)
                                (b.San. 98a)
                                The Rabbinic "two Messiah" theory was one of several answers that the Rabbis found for these contradictions.

                                Rabbi Dosa (who lived around 250 CE) was a chief advocate of the two Messiah theory. The Talmud records that he taught regarding Zech. 12:10:

                                What is the cause of the mourning [of Zech. 12:12]--... It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse:
                                And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son. (Zech. 12:10) (b. Sukkot 52a)

                                Yet another tell us that these two are one:
                                Like Moses, Messiah will be revealed, then hidden, then revealed again. (Bamidbar Rabbah 11:2)

                                Ephraim Messiah in Rabbinic literature is a Midrash in which the Messiah is being warned by G-d of what awaits him:

                                Their sins will be upon you like a yoke of iron. They will choke your spirit. Because of their sins, Your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth.
                                Do you accept this? If not, I will remove the decree from you. The Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, how long will this last?
                                G-d replies: "Ephraim, my true Messiah, ever since the six days of creation you have taken this ordeal upon yourself. At this moment, your pain is my pain"
                                Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, I accept this with gladness in my soul, and joy in my heart, so that not a single one of the House of Israel should perish. Not only for those alive, but also the dead. It is enough that the servant be like the Master.
                                (Midresh Pesqita Rabbah 36)

                                (to be continued)

                                Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu, Melech HaOlam

                                "Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165