So what about Paul?

[J-Bond]

I have breifly read through a topic concerning this guy; and frankl, the attempt to discredit him is a start but scarce with follow through.
The Anti-Missionaries do a much better job at making him look foolish.
Of course, all of this is helped by the centuries of roman hog wash that was taught using his words.

The attempt to protect this man was honorable. However, all in all, it's still only an idea that being protected; and not the substance. It's a superficial attempt and one that needs to consider much of who this guy actually was.

Of who he was, I believe, is taken as feather-weight contrasting his so-called conversion to being christian or whatever other name any person has for him.

I have my baggage about this guy.

What exactly is your's?

[rockywhy]

Oh boy Paul

Shalom all:

J-Bond, Saul is the first annointed king of "christiananity". Try dicussing anything with any of them and find out whether they quote Paul or the Annointed first. Now for your viewing pleasure you should go and read the account of the "annointing" of Saul for Isreal. Since He never changes, and Paul was sent to the "gentiles" then they would have their first king to be of the same name. He set up at least 5 of the "churches" in Revelations. If you read about these "churches" it tells you to recieve the reward you must overcome them. Not be one of them. The true translation of those verses is the "Spirits of the called out". They are there to decieve you from the true path and misguide you into false battles. They are there to throw "spears" at the annointed that will take there place. They hunt him to destroy him.

Now also keep in mind that Saul carried the covering of the "two false witnesses". He was fairest in the land. Blah, blah ,blah. It's an interesting study.

Now keep in mind that he is annointed and not to be "killed" by the one that will replace him but to allow his own destruction. If you come against him or the spirits that govern over him you will be in for a fight for your life. I wouldn't attack him but just understand who and what he is. Then go hide.

The "seven" spirits of the church are the "seven" that returned when the house was cleaned. The cleaned house was Judeism,which came back, with the other seven. As I said it is an interesting read and study.


May YHWH bless you and keep you in His Word
rockwhy

[Spying]

A Faithful And Trustworthy Beacon!

Gentlemen,

Paul is an Apostle of Messiah Yahushua. Paul is a leader of his people, and Paul is my brother.

This is what the Talmud says of him:

Rosh Hashanah 22b

MISHNAH. ........The one on Beth Baltin did not budge from there but went on waving to and fro and up and down until he saw the whole of the Diaspora before him like one bonfire.

If I was blessed to see his beacon concerning Messiah, then it is possible for others to see his beacon through me in order that the full number of lo ammi should deem themselves worthy of LIFE NOW!

Sincerely, Ab

[J-Bond]

Hi Rockywhy,

Try discussing with any of who?
In fact there is much reason- and very good reason why Luke chronicled Paul- the benjamite as a "prince" in the Greek book. And I highly doubt that christians are likely to know why.

And as to inform, Paul hardly set up any so-called church. As I read these were already existing synagogues by which he is known as a clerick or baliff of the high court. Meaning, those people that he had personally had anything to do with "witnessing" to- he sent them to an already established community that had their own Teacher. And if he had set up any community or a church it would be overseered by the high court from which he was sent.

Spirits of the called out? How do you say that in Aramaic-Hebrew (properly known as Mishnaic Hebrew- the language spoken in Israel in those times)? the language in which these people actually wrote?

It's nice how you associate him with Shaul haMelekh... however, he is not Shaul haMelekh... there is something that you are not observing well with the comparison between these two. But indeed, you do have an eye to try and see, that is well respected.

The seven clean spirits are not anything that have "returned" (shuv), per se. So you are correct to a degree; however, your idea needs to be unpacked and explained to reveal it's true meaning.
The seven are known as the lamp stand (a Menorah) which exist in the exile. These exist as the idea called the "sephirot" by which there are 10. Three of the 10 are always hidden- in practicality these three are known as the bench of three. The rest of the sephirot, the seven "spirits", are known as the men of leasure in a legitimate community. With SEVEN spirits there, in actuality, exists 10. The 10 are known as a congregation.
And you are correct to say that it is Judaism. You may want to do extensive study on the above.
It is alot that is needed to be understood.

[J-Bond]

The Entire Mishna states:
"Originally, they would light a relay of torches to spread the word when Rosh Chodesh had been declared.

When the Cutheans disrupted the process,
Hitkiynu Shyhu Shelutin Yotsiyn [the Sages] instituted that messengers should go forth to spread the word

How did they light the torches originally?

They would bring long poles of cedar-wood,

and reeds, balsam-wood, and flax combings.

And one would bundle them around the top of the pole with a string,

go up to the top of the mountain,

and set sire to them.

And he would wave the torch back and forth and up and down,

until he sees his counter part doing the same on the top of the secong mountain;

and so, too, at the top of the third mountain, and so on, all along the relay.

And at which vantage points would they light the torches? [I.e. which mountaintops were the points in the relay?]

From the Mount of Olives they would shine torches to Sartava,

and from Sartava to Gorfina, and from Gorfina to Chavran, and from Chavran to Beit Baltin. And when signaling from Beit Baltin, they would not move from there, rather [the signaler] would wave the torch back and forth and up and down until he would see the entire Babylonian Diaspora (the city of Pumbedita) illuminated before him like a bonfire.

How does this Mishnah, which specifically concerns itself with laws rather than any kind of aggada, as the Talmud (Gemara) concerns itself with at times, refer to Paul?

And how is Paul of any regards to Jewish Law (Halacha)? And how does this Mishnah speak of Paul when its concern is Halacha?

I suggest that you read literature in the way those who wrote it originally ment. There are rules to literature and they should be used in order to come to proper conclusions as to how the author or compiler understood and meant for its principle's to be used.

You on the other hand have just demonstrated something that Peter himself is against:
2 Peter 3:15-16

And account the longsuffering of our Master: salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as also the other writings, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

[LucySmith]

Gentlemen,

Paul is an Apostle of Messiah Yahushua. Paul is a leader of his people, and Paul is my brother

.

This is what the Talmud says of him:If I was blessed to see his beacon concerning Messiah, then it is possible for others to see his beacon through me in order that the full number of lo ammi should deem themselves worthy of LIFE NOW!

Sincerely, Ab

amen Br,Spying!
to those who walk in all manner of darkness APOSTLE Paul appears as a fool, but, to the saint who is filled with the Holy Spirit, Apostle paul is a spiritual giant among men + ALSO HAND PICKED BY OUR SAVIOUR! for a special mission!

also,
when the critics of this great Apostle Paul, achieve his statue,in relationship and abundant divine ministry perhaps i shall listen to their comments,
however
i feel ' boastings and feeble bible knowledge to together'' while the great divine advice from this dear Apostle/ our brother and friend WORKS, when we have the guts to apply his advice to our lives. amen
Let us join together to CHEER ON OUR friend AND thank him, FOR HIS ministry, that is still paying divine dividends today in the people who Love the Lord and Saviour!
After all Paul was Jesus choice, so when they mock Paul they mock our King.

[LucySmith]

cont...


what is so sensless with these types of discussions is = the creator of the Universe gave Paul ''HIS OWN DIVINE SIGNATURE''!....=the glory of God and His wonderous works.

[Spying]

The Mountains Of Israel!

Hi J-Bond,

Welcome to Lo-Ammi! You are indeed bold, and I like that! And you are indeed bound (you remind me of Thummim in this regard) by the Bond of a bunch of rules which do not bind me save for the desire and intent of ADONAI Messiah Yahushua and the spirits of just men made perfect like Peter and Paul.

I am a cell in the Body of Yahushua. Messiah and every cell in his body live by doing every word according to the faith of Messiah. His faith is the knowledge of things unseen. Concerning this faith, you have need of instruction by Messiah; otherwise, you would have acknowledged that the mountaintops upon which the beacon fires are lighted are indeed representative of his holy Apostles and Prophets (Acts 2:3).

My brother, Paul, determined to shine his face towards all his Jewish Brethren in the Diaspora, but evil courses adopted by Orthodox Judaism (Galatians 2:4) caused him to personally preach the Gospel of LIFE NOW as a messenger of Messiah Yahushua to the Jew first and then to his lost brethren of the House of Israel. This message went westward according to the will of Messiah (Acts 16:6-7) and not towards the east.

No messenger came to me. I was blessed and privileged to see the beacon fires directly from the Mountains of Israel, the chief Mountain being Messiah Yahushua himself.

Mr J-Bond, is it your desire to see his light and participate in the fire of LIFE NOW? If so, then welcome to Lo-Ammi. If not, then again, you are still most welcome here at Lo-Ammi perhaps as fuel for our fire.

Sincerely, Ab

[rockywhy]

Well ok boys and girls

Shalom all:

Since I "see" you all are headed to "death" even if by small and little bites, I'll leave you with this to mull over.

First to you J-bond, I'm sorry you are overcome by mans interpretations. What you say I do is both ignorant of the Word and denying of it. Either it is the devine "inspired" Word and needs no mans position when wrote or it's history and you need to look to death to find your answer. I assume that you are of the latter as you stated I should disregard it being devinely inspired and search who and how it was written and what station they had at the time. I see the need to search the scriptures and find the true meanings of words used at the time, I don't see the need to search history. It gets that simple.

Now for all. Yahushua said He only did what He was shown. Was He not shown to make the first annointed named Saul to govern over the "people"? You all don't want to give up what you have in your self righteous understanding to journey the path to "life". That's fine by me. Saul is Paul. Saul means lent, death, ditch. Paul means small, little. So whether he takes you to death or the ditch a little at a time or in small bites is fine for him. You just don't find life in death. You can believe all you want that you will, but in the end you find death and it will show you your faults in understanding.

Also consider that I stated that Saul is annointed. He was choosen for His purpose. I'm sorry you all can't read and understand that He never changes and that one "spiritual" Saul is the same as the next. Not one of you went and reread the story about the first Saul and compared to who you so revere as a great one. So to me you are in Sodom and will stay there till the fire destroys you. It's not my call but yours. Just keep in mind Saul and "all" his sons must die. That death is not far in the future.

Spying you will not find "life" in "death". That is the road your on. Sorry, you have to turn around.

J-bond, I would discuss the "7"fires of the menorah with you but I would assume you will stay in your Sodom also and not understand the truth as written.

Oh well, it's been fun but I see no need to continue with this. Unless the Father tells me otherwise, I'll just let you all be to discuss when and how you will die.


May YHWH bless you and keep you in His Word
rockwhy

[J-Bond]

AGAD! What Hostility!

Hi Rockywhy,

Why have you gotten so defensive and so quick to bite?

Reason why I said what I said:

People disregard the rules of literature and make their own interpretation. You do have an eye to look for things; however, now apply the rules of literature according to the way the writters of the books understood and applied those rules.
If the writters claimed to be Jewish, then apply the rules that Jews have for their literature.

By doing so, you will find yourself making more apropo conclusions on the texts that you judge and scrutinize.

And to be "annointed" as in the case of Shaul haMelech is not applied broadly or General.
To be "annointed" is to be MADE Mashiach (Messiah) as King David was annointed (Messiahd). "annointing" is not a call for anything... it is a call to represent or to be an embodiment of the Spirit of Messiah.
Shaul ha Melech may not have done that awesome of a job as a King of Israel, but he was indeed more righteous than you and I, that's for sure!
Now, Hakham(Rabbi) Shaul, was no governor. He was a clerick, an enforcer of the law; like a police officer and a lawyer in one. Those that were governors during his time, which over viewed everything in every Jewish community, where Rabban Gamaliel (Nasi) and Hakham Ya'aqov [ha tsaddiq] ben Yosef (Av Beit Din).

If you review history along with the study of mishnaic Hebrew (which was used during that time in Israel), along with the rules of interpretation of literature- then this is not so difficult to understand.

I actually commended you that you are close to a good understanding because you have a gift to "look for things"; however, your name calling or damning I will not accept from you. If it should continue then I could care less to respond to you anymore. I have no need to waste my time with people that have a hot-temper, trigger finger that would not care to find reason in other people views.

I find logic in the arguement of those that bash Paul. However, I must say, that their arguements fail once put under the microscope of all that transpired and was applied during his time.
Paul claimed to be a pharisee.
What did the Pharisee's know?
What where their rules for:
Home living?
Prayer and service to G-d?
Slaughering animals?
Observing the calendar?
Studying Torah and other books?
Business Ethics?
Etc.
Did he apply these rules in how he lived and what he taught?
The list goes on...

I await a friendly and open-minded, scholarly discussion

[J-Bond]

Bound and light?

Hi Spying,

Thank you for the wilkommen.
Now, as to being bound, indeed, I am bound by the Torah- who is Messiah- for they are one in the same and were the first being created by G-d.
The Torah commands to obey the words of Moses as if were the words of G-d.
And the Torah also commands to obey the elohim (judges/ rabbis) of the people that should rule in every generation and not to go to the right, or to the left from their judgment or decree or saying.
(Deut. 7:9-12)

and not even a Messiah (Jewish King) can disregard such a comamndment in regards to his previous judges.
(Deut 7:18-20)

If a Messiah cannot disregard the rulings of the sages, how much more can a regular member of his kingdom not turn aside from their rulings?

The Messiah, when he arrives, he will take all the rulings of the sages, and in his wisdom he will understand things that the previous sages had not and render judgements and reveal the mysteries of the Torah. All in all, he cannot disregard the words of the sages.

Now, you claim to be a member of the "body of Messiah". Whether it be that Master from Nazareth or any other [-one that peope claim to be a Messiah]; one is bound by his Messiah. A Messiah (Jewish King) has a kingdom/governent. A Government has rules and laws and regulatons and statutes and ordinances and precepts. A person who does not abide by these rules are not a part of the system or a citizen of this government. Those that are not citizens but live under the provision of the king and his government must abide by certain rules and do not have the priveleges and responsibilities as those that are citizens.

You say that your Messiah is the Master of Nazareth... to the Jewish and Hebrew thought a Messiah is a Jewish King. If you are not bound by the Torah and the words of the sages that rule in the generations then you are not claiming any kind of Messiah but an aMelekh and an antichrestus (instead of the rule of Messiah, the Jewish King).

Those that are bound by that which is Torah -which includes all the words of the sages of Israel- the actual physical people- for which the spiritual is SEEN in the physical. (Gen 1:27, Gen 9:6, refer to 2 Cor 4:4)

So to what body are you a cell of? It is evident that it is not the body of the Jewish King (Messiah).

I suspect, as to experience, that you might claim to be of Ephraim. However, to claim allegiance to this tribe and people does not allow one to disregard the rules of the kingdom of the King. The King is Jewish ( in this case I mean of the tribe of Judah) and he is ruler over all his brothers, including Yosef.
And any tribe or member that wants to split the kingdom and make their own laws and rules are guilty of treason against the King.
Is this your stand and case?

I know... I have made really bold statements here... but I hope that you can see through the harshness of them and see its reason and its principles.

Now, what you apply to Orthodox Judaism is not Judaism whatsoever. Indeed, these kind of people do exist in Judaism (and every life situation and group mind you), but what they do in "policing" people and forcing those not learned to be somewhere and to be something they are not anywhere near capable of doing or understanding is NOT anykind of Orthodox Judaism- it just isn't Judaism. This is just the system of legalists. And Judaism speaks against legalists- so your application falls through the not.

Gal 2:4 speaks against Legalists, not Orthodox Judaism.
And the Jews do not know of a "Gospel" which is why they never accepted it.
(Go here: http://www.betemunah.org/haggi/mishna1.html)
The "lost" in Judaism are known as those Jews that live not as a Jew regardless of their Jewish learning or observance. It also includes those from the lost tribes that lost their Identities as Hebrews.

And my only desire is to serve G-d and men- my life is kept by the Torah.
I do not participate in things that are contrary to what Torah wants us to understand.

[J-Bond]

By the way...
What does the Mishnah have to do with Paul?

I'm still awaiting an answer

[israelthebride]

The SAME GOD, through HIS SPIRIT,
that WROTE Genesis to Malachi;
WROTE Matthew to Revelation.

MOSES, JOSHUA, PAUL, etc.,
always seem to get so much credit.
GOD YHSHWH should get ALL the GLORY
for what HE WROTE through HIS SPIRIT,
through HIS PEOPLE.
Let no man take the GLORY from our GOD YHSHWH.

Even what we WRITE here on this discussion board
should be HIS SPIRIT WRITING HIS WORD.
My opnions mean nothing and hold no ground.
What I think is of no importance.

My SUBMISSION to HIS SPIRIT, WHO LIVES HIS WAYS,
from Genesis to Revelation, through me,
is what others should see.
I AM of HIS BODY.
When they see and/or hear me,
they should see HIM.
HE DRAWS HIS PEOPLE, through me, HIMSELF.

HE TOLD me,
"I don't need you to be like ME.
I NEED to BE ME, through you."

To GOD YHSHWH BE the GLORY!!!

LOVE, RICOEL

[rockywhy]

Sorry you considered it an attack

Shalom all:

J-Bond I was't attacking you. In fact I don't know you well enough to attack. Now the methods you profess to discern the Word is and was my point of discussion. This includes your Paul.

You see J-Bond, I do believe that it is entirely "inspired" by the "spirit". I don't believe for one second that the individuals had a say in how or what they wrote. I also understand that the Word itself tells us how to "properly interpret and discern" it. It's part of the path that you must journey on. I have been down your road, and even though interesting, it's a distraction from the true path.

Then you continue to write quoteing others opinions. What they anticipate, what it means to them, that we should follow their discerment. My answer would be, Why? If the Word tells us what we must do to properly interpret and discern it, why do I want anothers opinion that didn't start with the information that I just stated.

This is just information for you to continue your search for the Way. The Knowledge of Good is the same as the Knowledge of Evil. Same fruit used two ways. Both end in death.

Oh well have fun with it anyway.


May YHWH bless you and keep you in His Word
rockwhy

[J-Bond]

Hi rocky,

Thank you for making that clear... What you tried to express was rather cluttered with the words you chose... which is why I thought of your response as I had.

Ok... so the topic is my method of interpreting the Dabar (word, thing, idea) or Imrah (word, speech)? I tend to get technical

And I don't have a Paul.

"You see J-Bond, I do believe that it is entirely "inspired" by the "spirit". I don't believe for one second that the individuals had a say in how or what they wrote."

You see Rocky, the aspect you provide is indeed true, but it's only half the entire situation.
We know that it is G-d that controls all. Is not and attribute of G-d "Idea" to humanity as the way we percieve him now? Are not ideas a fuel to envigor us to achieve a merit or goal? Does not G-d give ideas (also known as inspiration) whether "evil" or "good"?
In fact, G-d formed the hearts of men and he shaped it and thus knows what goes in and out of it. For G-d himself, most blessed is He, fashioned good and made evil.

In this thought... is it not logical that every step a person took, G-d, most blessed is He, directed? Is it not logical that He inspires the lungs in human beings to continue its function? Is it not logical that He inspires us to take our daily courses of action? For remember that even G-d inspired David to commit a sin [- of the census].

Yet, in your thought, a person who is "inspired", as you will, has no way of knowing what he is doing nor understanding what he is writing? Also, all that he (the author) writes is transcribed faithfully with complete understanding as to what he wishes to completely divulge?

It is logical to know that the physical world shows what is in the spiritual world.
Thus, following this logic, G-d gave us every science and life situation, social status and varying degrees of moral and ethical practices to show us what he expects from us; within the corruption as also the pure.

An example:
You are sitting in a class and listening to the lecture of your professor. Your professor tells you and urges you to take down notes when he himself specifies for you to copy notes. Now, Your professor shows thoroughly the information and then tells you when to copy down the notes concerning the information he gave orally and by example (getting you and other classmates involved to understand the examples). The system in which your professor gave you the lecture and the notes make it so that you remember how things are done succesfully. And the notes are there so that when you look back on them, you can quickly recall his lecture and examples.

A classmate who skipped the class the day of this lecture came and asked you personally for a copy of your notes. You, not wanting to see anyone fail the class despite their error made him a copy of your notes.

You tell me, with the tradition (lecture and examples) you recieved from your professor to understand your notes, will that classmate come to understand all that you have come to know so well?

Will that classmate be able to pass an exam concerning the notes based on that lecture he missed unless he goes to you or another classmate that was there that recieved the tradition (lecture and examples) and asks questions regarding all of the technicalities and understandings of the notes given?

Indeed, it is a no.

As John in his book said (in paraphrase), "no book can contain all that the master of Nazareth said and done. For the writting of books is endless"
Yet, it can be contained in tradition:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions (paradosis) which ye have been taught, whether by word , or our epistle.” 2 Thessalonians 2:15

*Notice- the lecture (word) is mentioned first and then the note (epistle).
[For an example this verse is known as the rule of " A generality followed by a specific."- it is associated with other rules aswell.]*

Because these people spoke and wrote in Mishnaic Hebrew it is logical that the subject of their inspiration is the M'SORAH (tradition) spoken of here to the Thessalonians.
In Pirqe Abot 1:1 the term M'SORAH is interpreted as that which is privately handed down from one generation to another; from the mouth of one Torah teacher to the ear of his disciple, and so on, throughout the generations.

Peter explicitly mentions this tradition by lecture in 1Peter 1:25
"the word of HaShem abides forever, and this is the RHIMA (word) which was EUAGELISTHEN (gospelled) to you"

It is but a logical deduction... that the original word used by the Apostles, replaced later by the Greek EUANGELION, was non other than the Hebrew M’SORAH which in the Greek is translated mainly as PARADOSIS and meaning "a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. – (a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching; and/or (b) of the body of precepts, which were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they believed and obeyed them with equal reverence."

The Greek term used here for “WORD” is “RHIMA” (Strong’s # 4487) and meaning basically “that which is or has been uttered by the living voice.” In other words, this is the “Oral” and not the “Written” Word of Ha-Shem, this is nothing but Torah Shebeal Peh – the Oral Torah! Therefore this verse is much better translated from a Rabbinical perspective as:

“But the Torah Shebeal Peh of HaShem abides forever, and this is the Torah Shebeal Peh which was MASARAH (handed down, gospelled down) to you.”

(Many of the ideas here come from Rabbi Joseph ben Haggai)

"I also understand that the Word itself tells us how to "properly interpret and discern" it."

Yet, you and all other people who read it conflict on how it is supposed to be discerned sense you all have no rules on how to "discern" but a so-called "HolySpirit Inspiration" or "revelation" and cannot come to terms or reason on how it should be understood, since, each person has been revealed how to understand because they have the gift of discerning G-d's word, supposedly.

But, what you said is correct, the Torah (Chumash) is the main source that shows us, scientifically, how to understand and interpret its contents- who can interpret its contents and how to apply this to every generation. Yet, the world has not come to terms on how this is done save for those to whom this book and the lecture (at mount sinai) was given...the Jews. And as long as "new revelations" about a passage are according to the rules of interpretation as mapped out by the Torah- Jew's will not throw it away [though they may not really want to accept it].

I have been down your road, and even though interesting, it's a distraction from the true path.

So, to study is a distraction from the truth?
To study is to acquire knowledge... a knowledge to put forth a basis and ground for faith(the acting out/ application of our knowledge/ what we know). Faith is our pathway to truth, and faith relies on Knowledge.
I didn't realy say this to respond to that comment but only to relate to the comment quoted. I related this to push forth a concept.


Then you continue to write quoteing others opinions. What they anticipate, what it means to them, that we should follow their discerment. My answer would be, Why? If the Word tells us what we must do to properly interpret and discern it, why do I want anothers opinion that didn't start with the information that I just stated.

From what I have observed you are also condemned and or guilty of the same assertion you applied to me here. You quote Jesus and the pillars of the "church". Yo also quote from the prophets, and David and Joshua and the Judges- all of which find their source with Moses.

The Master of Nazareth was a Rabbi... and he quotes from all of the leaders before him and also quotes from the less inspired books of the Apocrypha.
You quote him as do many countless others.
The Rabbis of the Mishnah were also Rabbis that existed during the days of the Master of Nazareth and succeding genrations; and they as well quote from the same sources as the Master.

So my question to you is... Why do you want the opinion of Jesus, who got his opinion from those of the Hagigrapha, Apocrypha, and the prophets which all hold th opinion of that who wrote the pentateuch?

Why should anyone hold to your opinion that is based on Jesus opinion and his opinion based on his predecessors?

Your logic is faulty and is in need of reconstruction.