Vicarious Satisfaction Is A Lie!

[Spying]

Hi Everyone,

As a devout Lutheran, I believed that I was saved from death through my belief in the substitutional death of Yahushua who supposedly had paid the penalty of my sin through his death on the Cross. I was saved because I had faith that Yahushua died in my stead the death I justly deserved. Even though devout, I had many doubts about this dying in my stead, which is technically called vicarious satisfaction. I learned though experience that substitutionalism has no power to deliver the sinner from his sin so I became a reluctant white-washed tomb until I began to read the Scriptures in earnest. This scripture was especially troublesome:

Romans 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to ELOHIM by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

If we are are saved from death through the Cross, why does Paul speak of being saved by the life of Yahushua?

If we are saved by the life of Yahushua, what are we saved from? Could it be that Life Now saves us from Death Now?

Read the Scriptures, my dear brothers and sisters! Don't believe me, believe the Scriptures!

Sincerely, Ab

[israelthebride]

This is my belief and understanding
of HIS Book of LIFE, Genesis to Revelation.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I BELIEVE that we are SAVED from the death
our ancestors (the first man and woman) deserved.
As their children from their bodies,
we were "stained" with their sin.
Because our GOD YHSHWH'S WORD must be FULFILLED,
HE was obligated to SUBMIT to HIS WORD because HE IS JUST.

So now, under HIS New COVENANT,
we are are not under our father's curse
but,
are responsible for our own sin.

JER 31:29-33
In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape,
his teeth shall be set on edge.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
_______

The New COVENANT does not make us blameless.
The New COVENANT makes each one of us
responsible for our own sin.

We were under the curse of the INNOCENT death
of the animal (I believe a LAMB) that was SACRIFICED
and provided the “COVERING”
needed for the first man & woman
not to be put to death for their sin.

GEN 3:21
Unto Adam also and to his wife
did the LORD God make coats of skins,
and clothed them.

A human was required to die
for the debt owed for this INNOCENT death.
No human was or has been INNOCENT (sinless)
as this animal was.
This animal, that provided the “COVERING” of their sin,
was INNOCENT in it’s death.

This SACRIFICE was ceremoniously honored at the ATONEMENT.
I believe that this was the reason for the SACRIFICE
ABEL offered to YHWH.
ABEL offered the SACRIFICE in GRATEFULNESS.
The GRATEFULNESS was lost through the generations.

Still, the SACRIFICE (the death of the INNOCENT)
had been committed and had to be REDEEMED.
No sinless human existed.

So, the GOOD NEWS is that INNOCENT (sinless) LOVE
CAME to REDEEM us from the debt owed.
The curse was lifted
making us responsible for our own (future) sin.

There is only ONE WHO is sinless.
There is only ONE WHO is INNOCENT.
There is ONLY ONE WHO is LOVE.
The only requirement was
that the debt could only be REDEEMED by a human
because the death of the INNOCENT
had been caused by the sin of humans.

So, the GOOD NEWS is that
Sinless INNOCENT LOVE
CAME and TABERNACLED with us
and took the curse that was on all humankind.
SINLESS INNOCENT LOVE
took the curse of the debt owed.

We, humans, are REDEEMED from the death we deserved.
But,
we are responsible for any sin from that point on.
After FORGIVENESS comes RESPOSIBILITY for sin.

“Go and sin no more.”

JER 17:9-10
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the LORD search the heart,
I try the reins,
even to give every man according to his ways,
and according to the fruit of his doings.

REV 22:12
“And, behold, I come quickly;
and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.”

CONFESS all sin
and
HE IS FAITHFUL to FORGIVE us.

LOVE, RICOEL

[Spying]

The Language Of Substitutionalists!

Hi Israelthebride,

Thank you for your reply! As you explain your belief, you speak in the language of substitutionalism; eventhough, I have a feeling that you are not a substitutionalist at heart.

Messiah in his death, burial, and resurrection is the fulfillment of the Law. The Torah has requirements which cannot be sidestepped or ignored by our own individual beliefs. Man believes this or that. If this belief or that belief is not in accordance with what the Scriptures require, then respectfully we need to alter or change our belief.

The Torah teaches that Adam died. No animal sacrifice or covering changed that fact. So Adam paid with his life the penalty for his own sin, and so do we. Any other explanation is substitutionalism.

The Torah makes each of us responsible for our own sin and not the New Covenant. This is the teaching of Paul concerning that indisputable fact:

Romans 5:13

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Without the Law, each of us have a possible excuse for our sin! The Law was given (among a number of reasons) to take away any excuse that we might ascribe to ourselves and to give us all the opportunity to die for our own sin just like Adam. This indisputable fact is the thrust of these words of Paul:

Romans 5:20

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The Offence refers specifically to Adam's deliberate sin. Because of that deliberate sin, Adam gave to humanity a specific gift. This gift is death. The Torah was given to make this gift of death our own in accordance with the eternal judgment of YAHWEH ELOHIM that we should each die for our own sin and not for the sin of another:

Deuteronomy 24:16

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Substitutionalists believe many things about the death of Messiah Yahushua. This one commandment makes their common belief void so please try again.

Sincerely, Ab

[Ringo]

Amen, Spying! It's not mere mental ascension to doctrinal truths that saves (i.e., brings LIFE NOW), but it is passing through the EXPERIENCE of each doctrine that brings the Blessed Substance! We don't want to believe that He died and believe that He lives: we want to die as he died and live as He lives, now!

[LucySmith]

AMEN AMEN RINGO...THAT IS THE WHOLE KERNAL, OF OUR WALK

As His people, we long to be as our Master in every way in this life.
It is the whole purpose of our creation = To be breathed upon and joined together into His own superior supernatural living real life.
-today ''If we hear His voice'' makes this a reality!

[Jon]

Excellent post Ringo

Jon

P. S. One thing I'm not sure about what your saying though. You said that: It is passing through the experience of each doctrine that brings the Blessed Substance.

Are you referring to the catholic or orthodox idea of the eucharist? If so, then I would have to disagree with that sentence.

[LucySmith]

experiencing His own life...
as we walk with the Father Abba, we can discover that old habits/cultures/traditions/worlds will simply vanish from us - sins that once held us in such carnal slavery vanish and become void.
They did not just go puff !!!
but
as we obeyed His voice/commands we found that previous weaknesses where OVERCOME BY HIS PRESENCE in us.
As we walk with HIM daily - all we do is yeild up our wills...over all matters pertaining to our lives - and let HIM do that marvellous work in us.
Like a heart that is circumsised.... cut off... from all adamic reasonings... notice the 3 young men in Daniel - that firey furnace experience - see their standards - see their stance - it was all so impossible to escape = yet they had trusted In Father for their deliverance.
Notice their words - they had died to their own understanding, they did not allow the adamic 5 senses reasonings to prevail = our walk = into Life Now!
I once saw a dead person, and as i studied them laying there dead, i thought ''sheez dead is really dead'' like it is lifeless...well...we have to become LIFELESS to this world and our flesh and the devil...so that we are not moved any more... we are dead to sin, so that His life may abound IN us. amen.
it is only in this postition we learn to ESCAPE!
------
it is also interesting to notice that after this firey experience of the 3 young men,[Daniel 3] they are never heard of again....[i have not got my bible here sheez so i stand corrected if they appear again in Daniel]
dont you think this is interesting, as these 3 men played a vital role in the book of Daniel early on! what happened to them we are not told...ummm!
but on bible facts = the 3 escaped and LIFE in the form of the 4th person was seen-as a deliverer from death!
ummm...
i know no. 3 stands for end times!
also 3 disciples were present on that Mt of transfiguration [Math 17] yet just prior to their experiences we see ''death to self recorded'' in Matthew 16!
death to self = makes us WORTHY TO ESCAPE.. yet are we not asked to pray ''pray to be worthy to escape''.

[Ringo]

Hi, Jon.

Amen, LucySmith!

Yes, the doctrines are not meant to be believed, primarily; rather, they are doorways into divine EXPERIENCES and through such experiences salvation comes.

The phrase "Blessed Substance" was coined off the cuff. I have never used that phrase prior to my writing it in the preceeding post. However, I have used the phrase "Blessed Union" fairly often.

The "substance" that I'm referring too is what LucySmith described. The "substance" is nothing less than God Himself; hence, my use of the word "blessed."

Some might object to my terminology. I've read the dialogue on this board about the sacredness of the Jewish name for Messiah versus the pagan name. However, my view is that the various "names" that are ascribed to Messiah are neither more or less appropriate than any other name. The NAME of Messiah that is important to know is the one that is revealed within our spirit. The quickening Presence; the breath of God; the emanation of light that comes from the face of God IS the MESSIAH in all of His Glory and Fullness, right now! When one percieves and experiences this union with God, he or she knows and fathoms Messiah (even if he or she doesn't know any of the names). So, it is a moot point as to "which name" we use: it's as the scriptures say, "The kingdom of God is not about food and drink; but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit!" The point in the scripture is that the kingdom is not of the flesh but of the spirit. Any arguing and striving that we do over fleshly forms and manifestations of God's kingdom is wasted time and wasted energy; "names" fall within this parameter.

No, my use of the phrase "Blessed Substance" has nothing to do with liturgy.

Thanks for the dialogue, Jon.

Blessings!

[Jon]

Upon further reveiw

Ringo,

I realize that I had spoken prematurely, when I said ; excellent post.

There are elements in both of your posts on this thread, that I have to say that I disagree with. I really have no desire to discuss it further. You are free to believe whatever you want.

Jon

[LucySmith]

i never think we are ''free to believe what we want''... I believe and KNOW true saints- are taught by God's Holy Spirit to BELIEVE exactly as CHRIST BELIEVES.

have u seen a corpse?
a corpse is so lifeless, so dead, it is a shame there is NOT a word more descriptive than dead = deader than dead...this religion/belief of men is like some dead corpse, that stinketh and pongs. It is a belief that is never from Christ, so has rotten fruit of the ''''stinketh''' kind.
Lazarus stinketh for 4 days = 4 is the number of flesh and earth and all flesh and man's theories and talents just plain stinketh.

the Holy Spirit resurrects His people out from the stinking dead theories and beliefs and inserts HIS OWN DIVINE BELIEF SYSTEM == THAT WORKS when obeyed.....
so what works = the laws of sin and death DISAPPEAR... are made void, as we grow up into the same value system as Jesus Christ walks in.= see Roms 12!to walk in the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus - where there is NOW no condemnation == makes the laws of sin and dead - voided!
a true saint is trained up knowng HOW TO BELIEVE just Like
Jesus does.=this belief is not in the talk, but in the walk! amen

[Ringo]

Jon,

Hi! Well, I understand. I'm not one who is interested in debating various issues for debate's sake. What's important to me is that each of us is in loving unity with one another. I must say, I'm a little puzzled by the abruptness of your comments; nonetheless, that's your business.

I apologize if I offended you.

Blessings!

[Spying]

Despite Our Beliefs!

Hi Ringo,

Welcome to Lo Ammi! You have class and maturity, and I found your post to be right on!

I was baptized into the Body of Messiah (the Worldwide Church of God) on December 7, 1977 after seven years of being continually immersed in the Word seeking wisdom and understanding.

The first doctrinal issue to grab my attention while studying for the ministry in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod was the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul. I was blessed to be required to translate Plato's account of his mentor's dialogue defending the Immortality of the Soul. I was astonished to learn that Socrates, a rank pagan, could express so eloquently my Christian belief in immortality. I mused how natural man could discover and outline such a spiritual issue apart from the inspiration of the Word of ELOHIM (1 Corinthians 2:14)? Concurrently, I was also blessed to take a course studying John Milton's "Paradise Lost". I was impressed by "Paradise Lost", and I was surprised to discover as I looked into the life of John Milton that he denied that there was anything immortal about mortal men. Who had the correct view, the eloquent pagan and martyr, Socrates, or poor, blind, heretical John Milton?

The second doctrinal issue to grab hold of me was the Sabbath Day. As a good Lutheran, I had been taught the Ten Commandments from a small child to a ministerial student in their school systems. I had been taught that Sunday was the Sabbath Day, and I simply could not believe that I had been deceived on this issue. It was my heart's desire to do what is right, and, indeed, the Torah of Moses is very clear about what is right. So, what do I do? I studied the Apostle Paul, and I was placed in the greatest of personal turmoil. How in all the world could Paul say and teach so against the Torah? I basically made my decision to keep the Seventh Day holy in disregard of what I perceived Paul to be teaching simply because I knew that keeping the Sabbath was one of the Big Ten of my Heavenly Father. All the while I was seeking the "why", but I was made to obey before I was given an answer.

Bottom line, we are made to obey if we are on the road to LIFE NOW despite our beliefs, and YAHWEH ELOHIM looks to our hearts.

You have the instincts of a shepherd, and you are most welcome here at Lo Ammi.

Sincerely, Ab

[LucySmith]

amen Spying

see Ps 110 v 1-4.....

''made willing'

in the day of His power.

[Ringo]

Spying,

Thank you for your warm welcome and greeting! You have a very interesting history and I would be interested in chatting with you sometime about the details.

Have you ever read any of J. Rufus Mosely's writings? He wrote Manifest Victory and Perfect Everything and a third book, which is a compilation of some of his newspaper articles, was recently published named A Heavenly View. Given the details you mentioned (e.g., Socrates & Plato), I believe you would be especially interested in his work. He references these and other voices in his writings and even goes so far as to infer that their voices are prophetic. I would recommend him even if you had not written the things you did because I believe his writings are the best revelation of the Incarnation of Jesus that is in print. Also, his experience of what it means to walk in the Spirit is the most accurate account of any that I know of that has been written. His life in the Spirit was not of the type that one reads about in the life of John G. Lake, for example (whom I GREATLY admire); his life in the spirit was an experience of mystical love (for lack of a better phrase) and eternal life. I have been greatly nurtured and blessed by him and I believe anyone with a sincere and open heart would be, too.

I look forward to the free flow of revelation with all on this board and I particulary anticipate life-now dialogue!

Blessings!