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  • The wisdom of the wise

    The author of Mat.22:43-45 seems to be confused about a verse in the tanakh. He quotes Ps.110:1 and suggests that David is speaking, stating, [the LORD said to my Lord]. David is not speaking here but rather the author of Ps.110:1 is speaking in the context of Ps.45:1, (My tongue is the pen of a ready writer), saying, "YHWH said to my Adonai(David), sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool". It's simple to understand if you read from the hebrew text and not a greek translation. This makes the supposition of the writer of Mat.22:43-45 seem silly. (If David then call him LORD, how is he his son?) Actually, there is a good chance that it is Solomon that is being referred to as son by YHWH. Second Sam.7:14 says that it is Solomon who is called a son of YHWH, parralling a Psalm of Solomon,(Ps.72). I think that David is speaking of his son, Solomon in Ps.2:7. The wisdom of the wise is fragile. The author of any work is always benieth his pen if people will only look for him. David only quotes this verse to the ready writer. ....Michael

  • #2
    Spice!

    Hi Thummim,

    Welcome to this forum. It is good to support and come to the aid of your friends. You have an attention for detail. Whenever I read your name, I think of spice because your name rhymes with cumin. I love chili, and cumin is an essential ingredient as far as I am concerned. Perhaps, YAH have sent you to eventually help us to properly prepare the incense. You may be pepper. I know that you have added fire to my soul through your post on this thread.

    Matthew is quoting Messiah Yahushua in Matthew 22:41-46. It is Messiah who relates that Psalms 110:1 is messianic, and it is Messiah who states that David calls the Sovereign, "my" Sovereign. So, David does indirectly call the Messiah, "Sovereign", by adding the possessive "my" to the Hebrew word. Actually, David is relating what he heard and saw in the spirit exactly as Messiah relates and Matthew reports. David was the one who heard an oration or speech given by YAHWEH to the Sovereign (Messiah). Literally, the phrase should be translated more like this: An Oration of the YAHWEH to my Sovereign. Then David relates the contents of that speech or oration which he had heard in the spirit:
    Ps 110:1
    1 ...........Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJV)
    So, you are quite wrong, Thummim. YAHWEH speaks the above words to AWDONE. David hears that oration, and he reports to us what he has heard through the medium of the written word. Accordingly, this question still remains:
    Matt 22:45
    45 If David then call him AWDONE, how is he (AWDONE, the Messiah) his son (David's son)? (KJV)
    Maybe, you would like a crack at answering that question?

    Sincerely, Spying
    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      • Psalm 110:1
        Psalm To David
        Oracle YHUH, to Adony:
        Sit to my right until I place your enemy a stool to your feet.

      Whether this Psalm is about the anointed one (messiah) or not,
      there is nothing here to indicate that he is not from the seed of David,
      as promised by YHUH.
      Sandy

      Comment


      • #4
        The New Testament declares Iesous/Yeshua/Jesus is the messiah, 
        the redeemer that is spoken of by the prophets in the Hebrew Scriptures.

        But did Jesus accomplish the things the prophets claimed the messiah would do?
        Did he:
        • set the Israelites free from their enemies
        • establish peace and security for all Israel in the land of Israel
        • Jeremiah 23
          5) Behold the days come says YHUH,
          that I will raise to David a Branch of Rightness,
          a King who will reign and act wisely...
          6) In his days, Yahudah will be saved and Israel will dwell safely.
          And his name will be called Rightness of YHUH.

        The answer is no.  
        Instead, according to the New Testament, he was killed,
        and even after his supposed resurrection he did not stick around.

        By Jesus own words in Matthew he disqualifies himself
        as the prophecied messiah.
        • Matthew 10:34
          Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth.
          I did NOT come to bring peace but a sword.
        Sandy

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello Spying, We seem to be in disagreement. On an open forum, this happens a lot. I believe that it is the author's Adonai, whom is David, that YHWH speaks to. This is indicated by the lamed preceding the hebrew word, alef-daleth-noon-yod (Adonai). It shows that this is someones adonai. This convinces me that David is the authors Adonai. David is not YHWH's Adonai, it is the other way around. There is a third person here. The author tells the tale. The author says,"YHWH said to my Adonai (David), come sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet". David does not write this and neither does YHWH. The psalm is of David, but not by David. David is not writing of himself, he is not the author. If you read Ps.45:1, You are invited to see the work of a scribe. I cannot see YHWH with a pen in his hand. If YHWH does not write these words, then who does? It certainly doesn't seem as though David is writing these words to me. The tanakh holds the authority for understanding it's own words. The NT can only be commentary. It can also be wrong (my opinion). Now how do I prove to you that the author has an Adonai also? Where does it show that David is the author of Ps.110:1 in this chapter of Psalms? It is a psalm about David, but not by David. The context of this chapter shows this. It's written in the wrong person to be written by David. ----Michael

          Comment


          • #6
            Is David the Messiah?

            Shalom Thummim,

            Good to see you here posting. I see that this thread has been inactive for a little bit, and since you have raised some interesting points, I would really be curious about how you might answer a question that I have. Based upon your interpretation that Psa 110 is speaking ABOUT David, do you feel that the Messiah will be David himself (that is a resurrected David), or do you feel that the Messiah will be a son of David?
            Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

            Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
            Abstain from meats offered to idols
            (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
            So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

            Comment


            • #7
              Both Jeremiah (Jer.30:9) and Ezekiel (Eze.34:23) speak of David being raised up to the office of king of a united Israel. Ps.110 however may or may not be taken as messianic. It is dated to the Macabean era in some commentaries. This disallows David as author showing a third person commenting on YHWH's proclamation concerning the authors king whom he believes will be David. If the time of it's writing is truly Macabean, then the verse would have to be Messianic. (How can the author address David as his king if David died long ago?)However, if you take the time of it's writing to be concurrent with the life of David, then the verse needn't be messianic. In either case, I don't see how the messiah can be the son of David. Post dating Ps.110:1 would imply faith in Davids resurrection. ---Michael

              Comment


              • #8
                David a Priest?

                Shalom Thummin,

                Sorry for the delay in responding, its been hectic. I appreciate the answers you have given. You have allowed for several different ways in which you can explain Ps 110, and I am not going to try to address that right now, but I do have several other questions for you. Have you considered verse 4 in your thinking? If Ps 110 is speaking ABOUT David, then David himself would be a PRIEST, and his priesthood would not be after the order of Aaron (which the Torah requires). How do you explain that? The Torah is very specific about who could be a priest…the priesthood had to be of the sons of Aaron, and the Levites were also chosen to help with the sons of Aaron. Korah’s rebellion (Num 16) is an event that shows us Aaron’s right to the priesthood should not be challenged. We also have Abijah’s condemnation of those who allow for others to become priests:
                2 Chron 13:9 Have ye not cast out the priests of Yahweh, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and have made you priests after the manner of the nations of other lands? so that whosoever cometh to consecrate himself with a young bullock and seven rams, the same may be a priest of them that are no gods.
                10 But as for us, Yahweh is our Elohim, and we have not forsaken him; and the priests, which minister unto Yahweh, are the sons of Aaron, and the Levites wait upon their business:
                So I am just curious Thummin, how do you allow for David to become a priest, when he is of the tribe of Judah, and not of Aaron or Levi?

                I also want to address your thinking concerning how the Messiah is NOT David’s son. Is that a belief you would stand hard and fast on?

                Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                Abstain from meats offered to idols
                (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Shalom ImAHebrew. David is to be a priest like Melchizedek was a priest. Melchizedek is a Cannanite priest. He is neither born into the line of Judah or that of Levi. Yet he is honored by Abraham as his priest.(Gen.14:18-20) All that Melchizedek possesses is to belong to the seed of Jacob. He is the king of Salem "Jerusalem" where the name of YHWH is to dwell. There is a breach in the line of Judah written into the 38th chapter of Genisis. I suppose that he who owns the red thread would be of the line of David. He also is (not firstborn) and as such could claim the messiahship as a JEW or gentile if he could make a legitimate claim upon the red thread. Zerah is of the line of Judah and a shoot out of dry ground. Where did the line of Zerah go? If we assume that the sons of Tamar are consecrated to YHWH, Then if thirty pieces of silver were thrown to the potters in the line of Shelah, "Judah's family" (Shelahs family [1 Chr. 1:23] are potters), wouldn't we cut off the line of Judah from the line of Israel? (Zech.11:14) [Lev.27:4 the price of Tamar] This is probably the real context of Zech.11:10-14. Shelah was the son promised to Tamar. Could Tamar be redeemed from YHWH, cutting off the line of Judah from the line of Israel? This is implied by Judah's desire to burn her because he finds her pregnant. (Lev.21:9 the statice of a priests daughter-Gen.38:24 let her be burn't.) The red thread [red wool] is cast into the fire in rituals of cleansing. It has a part in the cleansing from death and disease. Malachi speaks of such a man in Mal.3:3,4. [he is like a refiners fire] Zech. 6:12,13 is about setting a man on the throne of David that is both priest and king. He is called the Branch. Could it be the branch of Judah that is being infered to here? Behold the man who is the branch of Judah? Note that at the time that the book of Zechariah is written, there is no heir for the throne. These are things I want to mention to open up some possibilities. Since the owner of the red thread could come from anywhere, JEW or gentile, and still be the legitamate heir of the line of Judah, he could be a healer of the breach. (Perez means breach.) I assume that the red thread has some special significance to the author. It doesn't occur elsewhere in the tanakh. The tale of the misfortunate firstborns is well set up in the parts of Genesis that relate to Ishmael, Esau, Reuben and Manasseh. These occur generation by generation from Abraham and occur elsewhere sporatically throughout the tanakh. Also note that Judah isn't supposed to marry a cannanite. (Gen 24:3, 28:1) You see, the author is hard at work setting up his story. I want to admit that I could easily be wrong in any of these assumptions. Zechariah concludes thus; in that day there shall no longer be a cannanite In the house of YHWH. ....Michael

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry ImAHebrew, I missed a question you had for me concerning whether Davids son is messiah or if it is David that is messiah? First Solomon is Davids son. Can David become Solomon? Can we let David and his son set upon the throne as the same person? Getting messianic, we seem to have the same conflict. Isn't it David whom the 110th Psalm is written about? If this is messianic, then it is David who is to be the anointed one who will one day return to his throne. Eze.37:24 says," and David my servant shall be king over them. The book of Ezekiel is dated centuries after Davids death. Therefore it is a resurection of David that must be spoken of here. David cannot become his own son, or can he? Judah seems to pull off something like this when he gives birth to his father and brethren in Isa.48:1. I'm open minded. I would rather believe that David is to become king of Judah again, possibly filling a breach that I previously mentioned. The prophets didn't just write their books of the tanakh. They read torah and the writings also. They often comment on the other books of the tanakh that are in existance at their time. I wish that they had made things simpler. Trying to understand the context in which they write leaves much room for error. Can there be a messiah who is not David? David can be a son of YHWH, Solomon can be a son of YHWH, the whole house of Yahudah can be called sons of the living YHWH. Perhaps the real name of YHWH is incomplete by a letter. That would surely cement a family relationship between YHWH and the tribe of Yahudah. What if "thummim" referred to a letter withheld from the name of GD so that the completed name is Yahudah? I've often wondered whether the author who chose the name of YHWH, would give his GD a name that was uncircumcised? If the people are in covenant to YHWH, isn't YHWH in covenant to the people also. This might disallow the people to touch death. It also might make the covenated people all righteous. Isa. 54:17 does say that the peoples righteousness is of YHWH. Thus they shall link my name with the people of Israel, and I will bless them. [Nu.6:27] JPS Assuredly my people shall learn my name, assuredly [they shall learn] on that day that I, the one who promised, am now at hand. [Isa.52:6] JPS I'm not prepared to state without a doubt that messiah is not the son of David. I just doubt it very much. ....Michael

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