Sitters In The Seat Of Moses!

[Spying]

Hi Everyone,

It is written:

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (KJV)

We all have been deceived by evil spirit, and some of us have even been united with evil spirit. That is a bad happening indeed because evil does not freely share or give of itself so it is with much hatred and resentment should an evil spirit enter us and be united with our spirit. Commonly, evil spirit seeks to dominate and control us through deception. As it happened to Eve, the mother of all the living, so also it happens to the whole world.

A case in point:

The Roman Catholic Church will freely admit that she changed the Sabbath Day from Saturday, the Seventh Day of the Week, to Sunday, the First Day of the Week. There is no deception in this admission. This is an action of the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, if you consider yourself a Christian, and if you yourself attend church on Sunday, then you are practicing the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. You are admitting by your action that the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church is valid. As a former Lutheran, I find that amusing.

Millions accept the tradition or law of Rome. Is their tradition valid? Messiah said concerning the Pharisees:

Matt 15:14
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (KJV)

The Pharisees were the religious leaders of the Jews. Messiah acknowledged that the Pharisees had the authority to establish tradition; yet, Messiah calls them blind. WHY?

Do Christian leaders have the authority to establish tradition? If so, are the religious leaders of Christianity equally blind? What of Islam? Who does sit in the Seat of Moses with eyes wide open?

Sincerely, Ab

Oh, Beseder, V'gam shavua tov l'cha!

[Robin]

just a quick question

Dear Ab,

What is Moses' seat?

Robin

P.S. And what does this mean: V'gam shavua tov l'cha!

[Parachute]

Skratch Paper

Greetings Spying,

Long time no see eh? I hope that you and yours are doing well.

Pardon this rough sketch - I have my statistics homework sitting next to me and I see all the skratch paper I have here. This post is pretty much like the skratch paper of my thoughts on this matter - kindof hard to read and there maybe you have a comment or two about it. If you do, I would be happy to discuss. If not, I maybe able to formulate better later.

I believe that many know the difference between the physical and the spiritual. Many people I can only assume have been taught from a very early age that it is the thought and not the gift that counts. If one understands this, I am sure that they understand the difference between the physical and the spiritual. However keeping this state of mind In my opinion is a hard thing. At least for myself I can speak.

The passages that you bring up are of a glaring contradiction:

In Matthew 15 Messiah is speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees and winds up calling them blind. According to Matthew 23 he says they sit in Moses' seat and have authority to tell the people what to observe. Yet he says that they do not do it. I am sure that they did 'do' much of it in a physical sense, however we know it is the thought that counts. They made large tassles as I am sure they told others to do. I am sure that the others did as they we told. One group was followers, and the others we not. It can be hard to have integrity, to not boast, to do things and not expect anything in return.

I cannot answer many of your questions but only make a few observations;

Many of The Traditional Christians that I have talked to do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church has changed Shabbat. Many believe that the scriptures have done this. I clearly see in scripture that this did not happen in the way that many tell me so. Many believe that they can see clearly in scripture that this has changed. Now assuming that the RCC actually did change Shabbat (I need to buff up on my history before I state that even though I am pretty sure that's the way it went), Traditional Christianity needs to separate itself from the RCC, so they make the claim that acctually someone else the entire time was keeping Sunday correctly before the RCC. I do know that they can bring alternate 'sources' to proove this and show that the Scriptures show the change. All in all it's a big mess and somewhere either the RCC and/or Traditional Christianity is wrong about what happened. I mean, why would the RCC have to make this Claim if everyone had been doing this the entire time? Perhaps in TC's mind they see the RCC trying to snag TC into their doctrine?

So anyways I do not believe that TC admits that the RCC tradition is valid. I have only seen and have only had those of TC admit that Sunday is their own tradition that has been handed to them directly from the apostles. So they believe that their gift is just fine because they have done what TC has told them, even if it might be from the RCC. In short, they may be decieved but they bring the gift in what seems out of pure heart ~ That I cannot say.

You can cleary see my breakdown of the sample equation. Is it the heart or what you are doing physically that matters? It would seem that to follow what Messiah has said you need to do whatever the Scribes and Pharisees tell you. At my job if I tell an employee to do a job and I refuse to do it when it is my turn to do it, I am in trouble by my superiour and so is the employee if they have not done what I said.

I don't understand how this matter can be judged? To many TC is the scribes and Pharisees, to others, the RCC are. To Lo-Ammi, not even the Scribes and Pharisees are the Scribes and Pharisees. Yet all claim they follow Messiah. Now my best guess is that Messiah sits in Moses' seat. So even though all believe that they follow Messiah, the RCC and TC obviosly admit to themselves that the church leaders are their Scribes and Pharisees. If you are quoting another leader, you probably don't have much faith in yourself or at least didn't work out the problem. My opinion is that the WORD is the final authority, and if you can't back up your claim with it, you've probably been studying someone else's work a little too much.

Here in my statistics I can give you my own answer for and equation if I understand the formula. I was taught from the book. Sure a teacher may have helped me, but I need not to quote them to give you the correct answer. Lately however I have enjoyed knowing that I know nothing, and saying calmly "I don't know."

That Excludes Lo-Ammi and Tzaddikim by the way, I know that no history can convince them to follow what another man has done. It pretty much had better be found flat in scripture or they won't consider it. I have to admit, that sounds logical to me that outside sources should not be considered. What reason should be? So the WORD is Messiah, and Messiah Is the WORD, the WORD sits in Moses' Seat. So the WORD should be that which establishes tradition. From what I see, all feel that they follow scripture flat out however. RCC probably not, but TC I would bet on.

I know my Family's attitude. "Whatever the Pope Decrees is correct." They believe he knows better than they. I believe this is a foolish attitude.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Anyways, my statistics scratch paper is probabaly easier to read than this. A bunch of equations that have answers but no way to tell which equation goes with which problem.

Peace,
Parachute

[Robin]

The King is Seated on the Throne

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hey fellas,

Unlike the days of which Parachute's tagline speak, there is a King in Israel today. In the days of His humiliation, He was a servant in the house of Moses; now, in the Day of His glorification, He is the risen and ascended King. The Word is on the throne, but it's not Moses' seat.

Robin

[Parachute]

y = mx + b

Greetings Robin,

Late I must say that it is. Anyways, what exactly do you mean, and what heck of a thing that is for me to ask you after my last post.

I think we would both agree that it is the WORD that sits in Moses seat - Let me explain. If in the days of Messiah the People were to obey who sat in Moses' seat and that was for a better term 'obeying from faith', 'being Tzaddik', then they were walking with Elohim. If am correct in understanding what you are saying, is that today for us to 'obey from faith', be a Tzaddik, walking with Elohim would be obey Messiah. This greater seat is relative to those who obeyed Moses' seat back in the day. So for them to obey Moses's would be like us to Obey Messiah's seat, which is greater than Moses'.

So A = A in both instances, both obey Elohim correct? It might be late, but I don't understand the significance. To walk with Elohim is the goal, regardless of what superficial name we put on it. And if both were/are doing it, what does this do with any understanding of the subject?

Feel free to critic this as much as you like, kind of doing that scratch pad of thoughts again.

Perhaps Spying may give some insight to who sits on Moses' seat if it is not Messiah, however in my ignorance I can only assume it is Messiah.

Have a good night a nice day today, or whenever it may be that you read this.

Peace,
Parachute

[Spying]

Binding And Loosing!

Hi Robin,

Thank you for bringing me into contact with Jon! Messiah said:

Matt 18:18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (KJV)

Where do you suppose that Messiah came up with this idea?

Sincerely, Ab

[Spying]

Please, Be Seated!

Hi Robin and Parachute,

The Seat of Moses is the authority to create Torah. A glaring example mentioned by Messiah is divorce:

Mark 10:2-9
2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. (I suppose that these Pharisees must have been tainted Pharisees, uh?)
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5 And Yahushua answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. (Obviously, the true Pharisees, do not have hard hearts, do they? Therefore, they should have no need of divorce! )
6 But from the beginning of the creation ELOHIM made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore ELOHIM hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (KJV)

Indeed, Heaven hates divorce (Malachi 2:15-16); yet, Heaven sanctioned the legislation of Moses concerning divorce. Messiah supports Moses 100%, but Messiah clarifies the intent of the Law given by Moses.

This ability to manufacture Law based upon any given circumstance is the Seat of Moses. The Torah itself establishes this Seat. Please read Deuteronomy 17:8-13. Messiah understood that the Pharisees did sit in this seat, but Messiah openly clashed with the Pharisees because they had made or supported Halachah (oral Law) which conflicted with the written Torah. This Moses strictly forbids in two places:

Deut 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YAHWEH your ELOHIM which I command you. (KJV)

Deut 12:32
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)

Messiah was also a giver of Law. Here is the Halachah of Messiah:

John 13:34
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (KJV)

We have already seen that Messiah expressed the intention of building his Assembly and that his Assembly would have the authority to create Torah (Binding and Loosing). Does this authority also remain with the Rabbis of Judaism? How about traditional Christianity or, for that matter, Islam? I say unto you in no uncertain terms: NO!

Sincerely, Ab

[Robin]

I have so very much to say

Hi Robin,

Thank you for bringing me into contact with Jon! Messiah said:Where do you suppose that Messiah came up with this idea?

Sincerely, Ab

Dear Ab,

I don't think I quite see the connection between loosing and binding and creating Torah. This is a really big subject and I have quite a bit to say but first I need for you to establish a connection for me between these two things.

As far as who sits on Moses' seat, it is Christ Jesus who, on Resurrection Day was given David's throne and Moses' seat. One billion Christians today believe that Peter had a seat/throne and there have been 260 something successions to it. However, I do not believe there is any order of succession in the Kingdom Christ rules. "By reason of death" there was the need for an order of succession in Levi and Judah (unlike prophets, who were determined by selection and sent to the vineyard and could loose and bind), but the Messianic Kingdom is different from the Mosaic kingdom because of immortality. There are many parallels between the Mosaic kingdom and the Messianic kingdom but they break down when it comes to matters of succession because of regeneration and immortality.

Jesus was the prophet "like unto Moses" in that He was a prophet/Redeemer. Moses sat in his own seat given to him by God to rule over a redeemed people. (After Moses' death, the seat was divided into priest and king. In Jesus' day, the scribes and pharisees sat there but it seems maybe they shared the civic side with Pilate?) Moses wrestled with the gods of Egypt to redeem the people and Jesus wrestled with the head of the spiritual world, the prince of darkness to bring in a spiritual kingdom. The Firstborn from the dead ever liveth and ever reigneth from David's throne given to Him by His Father to rule over a redeemed people. Peter never sat on Moses' seat in the Mosaic kingdom or in the Messianic Kingdom. In fact, it is interesting to read what the first "pope" says in one of his epistles.

4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This is reminiscent of Jeremiah 23:22

But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

All of Jeremiah 23 applies here, I think.

Robin

P.S. I'm glad you and Jon met. All I did was give him your e-mail address.

[Spying]

Letters Of Torah

Hi Robin,

Thank you for your reply, and I am glad that you have much to say.

Messiah was born under the Torah or Law. This means that Messiah is required to abide by the whole Law. The Law itself allows for amendment. The smallest court under the Law was a court of three. A court of three could render legal decisions on certain matters of Torah. The highest court was the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin could declare war, and only the Sanhedrin could convict a false prophet. Messiah was tried by the Sanhedrin. This whole system of making lawful decisions concerning matters of Torah from the smallest court to the highest court is the seat of Moses.

The Law itself makes certain requirements of a king:

Deut 17:18-20
18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear YAHWEH his ELOHIM, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel. (KJV)

Since Messiah is seated upon his throne, Messiah is currently in the process of completing his copy of the Torah. I agree that succession is not an issue for Messiah unless Messiah should decide to rule Torahless or in some fashion make the Torah void:

Deut 17:17
17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. (KJV)

Messiah has not multiplied wives unto himself. Messiah is the husband of one wife, and Messiah has given great authority to his wife:

Matt 16:19
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (KJV)

This authority was first conferred upon Peter. The "thee and the "thou" in the preceding quote are singular, and they only refer to Peter because Peter was the first taught by ELOHIM. Notice how quickly this situation changes:

Matt 17:1-3
1 And after six days Yahushua taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (KJV)

So, there are now three who have been taught by ELOHIM, and these were quickly given authority to bind and loose:

Matt 18:18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (KJV)

The "you and the "ye" is now plural so Peter did not long abide as Messiah's vicar on this earth . Notice that a Court of Three is now established, that is Peter, James, and John.

This realignment does not end here. Under the Law, a small Sanhedrin could be established for a city of at least 120 in number. Surprise, surprise, but what was the number of the believers, those who have been taught by ELOHIM, when the Apostles convened to replace Judas? (Acts 1:15)

I know that you are not accustomed to thinking that the Church of Messiah must sit and decide issues of Torah because most of your life you have firmly believed that the Church of ELOHIM is not under the Law. Yes, No?

Beseder and I are not debating whether this authority to legislate Torah continues to exist. We both believe it exists, but while Beseder believes that this authority remains with the Rabbis of Judaism, I firmly believe that this authority has been transferred to the Assembly of Messiah, that is, to the living Body or Temple of Messiah.

I am a letter in the Book of Torah that Messiah, my King, is writing as instructed by the Torah. (2 Corinthians 3:3) How about you yourself?

Sincerely, Ab

[Robin]

you could always make me think

Dear Ab,

As always, your post gives me a lot to think about. I'd really like to hear what Thummim thinks about it.

I know that you are not accustomed to thinking that the Church of Messiah must sit and decide issues of Torah because most of your life you have firmly believed that the Church of ELOHIM is not under the Law. Yes, No?

No. You're wrong about this.

I am a letter in the Book of Torah that Messiah, my King, is writing as instructed by the Torah. (2 Corinthians 3:3) How about you yourself?

It bothers me that you have to ask.

Robin

[Spying]

Under The Law?

Hi Robin,

In what manner am I wrong? Am I wrong about your belief that you are not under the Law?

And if you are not under the Law, then why are you bothered? Indeed, what letter of the Law do you see yourself as becoming?

It is written:

Ps 119:165
165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. (KJV)

Sincerely, Ab

[Parachute]

Building a Practice

Greetings Spying,

I hope that you are doing well!

I have a question for you.

As you may know I grew up in the Catholic Church. Matthew 16 is well known by them because they believe that Peter was the Rock. You began this thread and sited this example:

The Roman Catholic Church will freely admit that she changed the Sabbath Day from Saturday, the Seventh Day of the Week, to Sunday, the First Day of the Week. There is no deception in this admission. This is an action of the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, if you consider yourself a Christian, and if you yourself attend church on Sunday, then you are practicing the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. You are admitting by your action that the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church is valid. As a former Lutheran, I find that amusing.

I don't know if you know this but the Roman Catholic Church also believes that they have the power to bind and loose laws. So what makes their belief in their laws void? Theoretically, isn't the RRC correct if they can bind and loose laws as well? Why do they not have the authority?

Peace,
Parachute

ps: I am not sure if I accept the assumed explanation for binding and loosing. Considering that the RRC believes it gives them authority. . . doesn't really help the case.

[Parachute]

Teaching about Anger

Greetings Spying,

It's one thirty in the morning and I had to turn my computer on to tell you that I found the information about the Sanhedrin interesting. Even more when I found that the actual word is in the Catholic Version at Matthew 5:22. The side Text mentions that it is the highest judicial body in Judaism.

Now that I'm awake, this all kind of clicked a bit better. So the apostles became the new Sanhedrin for their new city. Sounds good. I like what I am hearing. But now I have a question. Is there any other scripture that talks about the Sanhedrin? How about the numbering of 120 for the judicial 'branch'?

Previous post question still applies

Peace,
Parachute

[Spying]

The Decision For Life!

Hi Parachute,

Thank you for your replies and thank you for your patience in waiting for a reply! I have just returned from the Feast of Tabernacles. While at the feast, I did not have internet access.

The Tzaddikim believe and I believe that the death of Messiah on the Cross is in reality the death of all of mankind. This strange, all consuming work of ELOHIM is stated in Isaiah 10:16-23 and is also indicated in Isaiah 28:21-22. This work is called a short work in Romans 9:28 by Paul.

Paul knew a whole lot about this strange work. If all died when Messiah died, then everyone that you yourself know, and I include here the Tzaddikim and also everyone in the Roman Catholic Church, we have all died. In short, the dead cannot make decisions for the living. If we could make binding decisions, if anyone does possess the authority to bind or release on this earth, then surely we would all make a decision that all should now live and not continue in death until the day that we physically die.

As it is, no one in the RCC has continued to live. They all have died, have they not? So, the authority has not been with the RCC. Perhaps, they have the authority, but for various reasons, they have failed to grant themselves a release from sin and death? If you yourself had the authority, would you not give yourself and your loved ones release? Sure you would, and so would I. Do you believe that the RCC presently has such authority?

Messiah is the only one alive, and Messiah has the authority to give his life to his loved ones. If Messiah has given us life, then we collectively have authority to make decisions about life and death, and all such decisions are binding. Has Messiah given you life?

Sincerely, Ab

[Parachute]

Good Evening!

Greetings Spying,

I hope you had great feast. I spoke with many from the other side of the tracks who said they had a great time. Somehow, I'm sure yours was great too!

As it is, no one in the RCC has continued to live. They all have died, have they not? So, the authority has not been with the RCC. Perhaps, they have the authority, but for various reasons, they have failed to grant themselves a release from sin and death?

If you don't mind, I may need some clarification on this. Are you saying that all have physically or spiritually died with the RRC. And what do you mean they have failed to release themselves from sin and death? As in, not following Torah?

Peace,
Parachute