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  • #16
    Quote:

    If righteousness comes at GD's choice, is the one who practices tzadaquh on his own more righteous then he who does not?

    ------------

    see, here is the catch, Adonai tells us, "DO!"
    However, it is up to us to go.
    so, he tells us, "GET UP AND GO!"

    However, Avinu Avraham could have easily disregarded the call.

    So how was he chosen?

    HE GOT UP and DID what was told of him!

    so guess what, the choice is ALWAYS OURS- so WE ARE THE ONES who practice righteousness on our own- but we need the call (commandment) to do it!

    however, we can also do it without the call, however, the reward is much less to not recieve the command and do it out of your own good inclination instead of being commanded, which in this one will recieve greater reward, because now the evil inclination is aroused and one must have the evil inclination submit to the good inclination and have the evil serve Adonai our G-D.

    there is so much to this!
    ONE G-D, ONE SPIRIT, ONE MESSIAH.
    ONE COMMUNITY/IKKLESIA/K'HILLA, ONE BODY, ONE BRIDE.
    ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

    OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)

    Comment


    • #17
      GD makes the house, but we get to paint it.

      ...Antonio, you know as well as I that GD can make up his mind that no repentance will do. He can also curse a people as he has done. That would be GD deciding our righteousness for us. There is not always atonement that can be found. You answer is simple, but it is not what we read in the tanakh. When YHWH decides to forgive a transgression, it is done at his will. What I will say is that repentance makes GD's forgiveness more likely. But he still is the real righteousness and the one who picked Abraham {and Noah} as his foundation stones.

      ...Was Abraham the only righteous man in the world? I could argue Abrahams righteousness with you. Sarah could as well. It was GD's choice to make and GD's own view of righteousness that led him to make his choice.

      ....Michael

      Comment


      • #18
        it's faith

        However, Avinu Avraham could have easily disregarded the call.

        So how was he chosen?

        HE GOT UP and DID what was told of him!

        so guess what, the choice is ALWAYS OURS- so WE ARE THE ONES who practice righteousness on our own- but we need the call (commandment) to do it!
        This is faith.

        Comment


        • #19
          HUH?

          ok Thummim,
          I guess I am wasting my time with you.

          you are right to note that forgiveness does have a connection with righteousness (TZEDAKAH-CHARITY)- but you obviously think way to christian for me.
          You suit very well to be a "messianic" that does not believe in Yeshuah...and that is fine, but I realize that I cannot engage in an actual growing look into Torah- for your knowledge of Hebrew is just that of a Messianic.

          Robin...
          you say, "this is faith"

          what is the HEBREW word for "faith'?

          it is EMUNAH!
          Emunah does not mean a "faith" that comes up like, "courage to do something in your heart knowing that you can do it."

          EMUNAH is one simple thing!

          FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE!
          which is the correct translation of what EMUNAH is!

          So indeed
          Avinu Avraham Isuued forth his Faith(ful obedience) to the Command of HaShem!

          ( i know that i have not gotten into detail)

          shalom u'brachot
          Antonio
          ONE G-D, ONE SPIRIT, ONE MESSIAH.
          ONE COMMUNITY/IKKLESIA/K'HILLA, ONE BODY, ONE BRIDE.
          ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

          OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)

          Comment


          • #20
            I swear by the lives of all under my roof if GD would but ???

            ...Antonio, what would it have taken for Moses and Aaron to cross over the Jordon river into the promise land, with them having offending GD by not sanctifying him in the eyes of his people? I think that we would both conclude that Moses and Aaron are righteous in some way that YHWH can reason, and hold more of GD's favor then we do. So where does sin meet unrighteousness and how does one remain a righteous sinner? Anyone can write down the definitions that a dictionary gives us. But I ask a little more thinking on your part. Try actually saying something for a change. I'm interested in your own thoughts which you seem to give out sparingly. Give me your opinion and your reasoning in your post. What is righteousness to you. What is GD's part in it? What are some of the things that GD allows to occupy "his" righteousness? What of Jephthah's Daughter? Is this "righteousness" to you? {Judg. 11: 30, 31} Don't look for a simple answer of what righteousness is to me. There is no simple answer I can give you. Doing good deeds and being obedient is too simple of an answer for me to give. It all comes down to GD and what is righteousness to him. YHWH writes the laws of "righteousness" for his own house.

            ...My wife, children and servants lives all belong to me by YHWH's law. I may vow to GD upon them all if I choose, and I am still righteous to GD for doing so. If I keep my vow, My righteousness remains intact. But if I look for a way around my foolish vow, my righteousness takes a dive in GD's eyes. It's YHWH's house and his laws that have to be the measure of my righteousness. My own righteousness takes a lot of forethought on my part. Just because it is YHWH's own way will not justify me in my own eyes, nor will I be justified in the eyes of the peoples of the land that I live in.

            ...Can GD's law be a perfected law as it is written in the tanakh? The sages cannot even get it right to each others agreement.

            ....Michael

            Comment


            • #21
              what I am saying thummim is that you do not know what righteousness is.
              and because of the righteousness of Moshe Rabbeinu- he had to die on the mount and "CHARITED" it,if i can say, over to Joshua...

              once you know what the word itself means- a completely higher view is taken on it.

              its too bad that you interpret bible like samaritans...
              oy
              ONE G-D, ONE SPIRIT, ONE MESSIAH.
              ONE COMMUNITY/IKKLESIA/K'HILLA, ONE BODY, ONE BRIDE.
              ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

              OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)

              Comment


              • #22
                Quote:

                ...Can GD's law be a perfected law as it is written in the tanakh? The sages cannot even get it right to each others agreement.

                ahh, but you can ey?
                when you can get into deep, darklegal matters and understand then maybe I will count you greater than they, and people must follow your halachot.
                but before that, you need to go to a school and become a rabbi (or just be a self-proclaimed one like every Messy-anic.)

                make a school for children.
                make a Mikveh for women to follow niddah.
                make a synagogue.
                then make 70 rabbis, each with great knowledge and authority.
                then you have made yourself a sanhedrin- a court of law.
                then, make 10 more rabbis, so that it will be greater than the sanhedrin that existed 2000 yrs ago.

                When this is accomplished you can change any halacha you want!
                you can make it strict or loose.

                but as for now- you have none of these, thus no authority to change anything- but you must do as Messiah said,

                OBEY THE SCRIBES (Hachamim -sages) and Pharisees, for they are the ones who sit on the seat of Moses...!

                THATS IT!

                (of course, i havent gotten into detail.)

                shabbat shalom
                ONE G-D, ONE SPIRIT, ONE MESSIAH.
                ONE COMMUNITY/IKKLESIA/K'HILLA, ONE BODY, ONE BRIDE.
                ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

                OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Righteousness is defined by YHWH's own pleasure in ones deeds.

                  ...Antonio posts;

                  My Quote:

                  ...Can GD's law be a perfected law as it is written in the tanakh? The sages cannot even get it right to each others agreement.

                  ahh, but you can ey?
                  when you can get into deep, darklegal matters and understand then maybe I will count you greater than they, and people must follow your halachot.
                  but before that, you need to go to a school and become a rabbi (or just be a self-proclaimed one like every Messy-anic.)

                  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

                  ...I can talk about the law and what righteousness each law holds in it, but I don't have to agree with all that the sages say about the law. I can favor one sage over another as do the Hassid. I can have my own understanding of kashrut. You make the law a brittle stick instead of the bendable reed that it is. {the work of the sages who can disagree with each other} You call me a Messy-anic like you've never read any of my posts. What I say of the messiah is beyond the understanding of most peoples still. {its new and not just mimicked down through the centuries} But my understanding explains how a single mans Name can be "YHWH" and how he would be a father to all of the JEWish people, like no one can do for {Jesus} or any other messianic idea that floats about, pointing in any other direction to any other messiah. Isn't my faith rather unique?

                  ...Are my halachot different than yours? Do we read from different books? You say that I have no idea what righteousness is. But YHWH can judge whose righteousness is more in his eyes, mine or yours? You are making assumptions that you have little knowledge on which to make them. What do you really know of me? But I taught you where every letter in GD's Name {YHWH} comes from. If I teach the Name of GD to all and the JEWish people then find life easier for the new strength in our Name, have I done a righteous thing? What does it really mean to bear the Name of GD? Knowing that YHWH decided to "put" his Name in one of the twelve tribes of Israel, gives the name of "Yahudah" the strength that it hasn't had in the last several millennium. If it is the Name of "YHWH" that defends Israel, then without this scepter, Israel perishes. It's better to "put" on the Name of "YHWH" like a royal robe, than to parade naked in front of the worlds peoples and be mocked by them and distroyed {after being accused of being unrighteous by them}. I teach the Name of YHWH for a purpose, and YHWH lets me know that at least this much of my knowledge belongs to him. Those who have trampled upon the Name of "YHWH" rest upon hopelessness when they choose to seek a blessing from it. The doors are shut to those who haven't any reverence for those who wrote the mitzvot down to pass along through all our generations.

                  ...I set the Name of YHWH between the JEWish people and our enemies, and the dark clouds swirl about there, at least that is how it is supposed to work. Is this an act of righteousness?

                  ...I've pointed to the messianic child and taught why he has a right to David's throne. The only other path to it is seen in looking skyward. But I'm afraid that nothing is about to fall from the heavens {as christians believe} and rebuild the Name of Yahudah into the name it once was {or so I imagine that it has been in the past}. The JEWish people have only to pick up this marked child to recover the throne of Yahudah. It is his "rite" to the name of "Yahudah" that makes him a father of all JEWs. He inherits the seed of Judah. There is no other path to the throne of Yahudah. The door of the line of Jehoiakim and Jehoiachin's throne was closed by YHWH purposefully. {Jer. 36: 30, 22: 28 - 30} Now he will come to whom the name of Yahudah and its scepter belongs. You can call him messiah if you like. He will be born in Israel of JEWish parents. It is his right arm that marks who he is. All other claimants to David's throne are imposters.

                  ...Again YHWH is the judge of my righteousness. You are the one who is still just a student. Pay attention!

                  ....Michael

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    youve totally mis-interpreted what i said about me saying that you interpret like a messy-anic.

                    if you wish to be corrected, then i will correct you--- however, for this moment i see giving you any correction as useless.
                    ONE G-D, ONE SPIRIT, ONE MESSIAH.
                    ONE COMMUNITY/IKKLESIA/K'HILLA, ONE BODY, ONE BRIDE.
                    ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

                    OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Who is the righteousness of the JEWish people?

                      ...Antonio, what is your own definition of righteousness? Is GD's part in our righteousness more than our own part in it, or is our righteousness fully earnable by us alone? And what of Jepthah's little sacrifice? Is it righteousness to you? Was it more righteous to keep the vow he made, or should Jepthah have thought like Samuel's parents when they gave Samuel's life to GD? Whose life benefited GD more, that of Jephthah's daughter or that of Samuel? Righteousness is not always easily understood. I suppose that is why the rabbi's argue about it.

                      6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer. 23: 6

                      ...The hebrew word is tzdekenu, "our righteousness" and not our vindicator as it is translated in my tanakh. I read that {he?} is his peoples righteousness. Does this speak of the messianic hope, a man, chronicled above, or the GD of the JEWish people? Can a man's name be YHWH? Why does Isaiah also call a mans name "GD" {Isa. 9: 6}? So his name is YHWH and his name is GD?

                      ...But we are talking about a man in both cases, aren't we?

                      ...There is a question of righteousness here to be answered. Who is the righteousness of the JEWish people? Is this righteousness more than the JEWish peoples own righteousness?

                      ...This is my argument concerning righteousness. Our righteousness may be made for us and may be beyond anything that we can earn.

                      ...Antonio, when you speak, but are not understood, just whose problem is it? Did you want to be understood? You may have to make the effort.

                      ....Michael

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I guess I could have worded it a bit differently.
                        However,
                        If you dont understand something someone said, you must ask...
                        "I dont understand, can you rephrase?"

                        YOU KNOW, that you are not messianic!
                        and I KNOW that you are not messianic,
                        NU?

                        So, now maybe you can understand what I tried to tell you by the methods of your interpreting.

                        and righteousness is not merited or earned by ine person alone...it takes two...
                        if two humans, G-D is in the midst!
                        If only one- then it is a pact between him and G-D- either way, it takes two to make righteousness and to do righteousness.

                        and from this point on I'll be using the word tzedakah, rigteousness nor charity is a suitable word though both lend an idea to what tzedakah is.

                        shalom u'brachot
                        Antonio
                        ONE G-D, ONE SPIRIT, ONE MESSIAH.
                        ONE COMMUNITY/IKKLESIA/K'HILLA, ONE BODY, ONE BRIDE.
                        ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

                        OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          ...Antonio, our understanding of righteousness is more alike then different. We both believe in tzedakah and we both believe that GD's part in our righteousness is significant. We have to choose our words in a way that allows their understanding, or we end up sounding like foreigners to each other.

                          ...For the sake of continuing our discussion about righteousness, what choices did Jephthah have after making his vow, to maintain his righteousness? Did he really have to sacrifice his daughter in the way he did? Was there any way out? Was it a righteousness act when he made his vow in the first place? Shouldn't he have sworn upon his own life? Allowing that Jephthah's daughter and his servants were his property, does this make his vow righteous? Do these lives really belong to him?

                          ...It seems to me that righteousness is righteousness, only when GD reasons it to be righteousness.

                          ....Michael

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Isn't Christ our righteousness - or is that too simple-minded of me?
                            Gal.2:20

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              ...Raphu, {Jesus} being the righteousness of the people only works when you desire to have only righteous christians in your world. But the tanakh is JEWish and it is YHWH who makes his people righteous at his own will. It all hangs upon whether GD reasons his people to be righteous.

                              I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, {sans any offerings or sacrifices} and will not remember thy sins. Isa. 43: 25

                              ...GD blots out iniquity for his own sake when it pleases him to do so. This works for JEWish righteousness also. A JEW needn't be a christian to be deemed righteous when righteousness comes at GD's own hands. But it must be in GD's reasoning that righteousness prevails over our own iniquity. In other words, YHWH makes righteousness {Isa. 54: 17}. {Jesus} has given little of value to the JEWish people. If there had been no {Jesus}, then there would have been very little religious persecution of the JEWish people. The only other faith that persecutes JEWs is islam. But over all, islam has a record of tolerance vastly superior to that of christianity. It is only with the return to Israel of the JEWish people, that islam has become a faith that has become intolerant of us JEWs. If Noah were a christian and commanded to build a new ark, his new ark would take on very few of the JEWish people. Just {Jesus} worshippers could get on. I'm not sure what to call a JEWish {Jesus} worshiper. But it seems to me that "christian" would be a better fit than "JEW". Each brings up a different picture of ones faith.

                              ....Michael

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                invitation to all

                                oops- I'll be back- sorry (posted wrong thing here)
                                ONE G-D, ONE SPIRIT, ONE MESSIAH.
                                ONE COMMUNITY/IKKLESIA/K'HILLA, ONE BODY, ONE BRIDE.
                                ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

                                OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)

                                Comment

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