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  • Thummim
    Don't let my body see corruption {the grave}

    ...IamAHebrew posts;

    Would you like to learn of this righteousness, and be saved?


    ...GD used to save people in this world. That is the salvation that I would like to see. Salvation that happens somewhere else rather than in this world is not what I seek. Where does the tanakh say that GD saves lives in any other way? Salvation belongs to "life". I have a sure witness of my own life. Saving "souls" does not come from the tanakh. GD doesn't save spirits. It is flesh that cries out for salvation.


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  • ImAHebrew
    Your beliefs on righteousness follow traditional "christianity."

    Shalom Thummim,

    There is just not enough time in the day to do everything that I would like to accomplish. This will have to be a short response. I hope YHWH is blessing you.

    I would like to reiterate our differences on how the NAME of YHWH saves you, wraps you in safety, and gives you righteousness. You believe that some Hebrew consonants and vowels written in a certain physical form will save you, wrap you in safety, and give you righteousness. I believe that the NAME of YHWH is ALL of His WORD, and it is His WHOLE WORD that saves us, wraps us in safety, and gives us righteousness. It is just a matter of accepting and believing in His WHOLE WORD (His Name), and you will be saved.

    Now, you are just like the traditional "christian," in that you believe that YHWH is mystically saving you IN your sin:

    Thummim: It is not posible for a JEW to sin when GD will not allow the sin to exist. YHWH makes his people righteous! But then all righteousness comes from him.

    Traditional "christianity" has the same concept. They beleive that GD has bad eyesight when it comes to looking at their sin, that He can't "see" their sin because He is looking at someone else's righteousness ("Jesus'".) They, and you make a fatal mistake in understanding the righteousness that comes from YHWH through His Name. The righteousness that comes from YHWH saves sinners OUT OF SIN, not in sin. Do you understand the difference? YHWH wants to redeem you OUT of sin. He wants to deliver you FROM Egypt, not IN Egypt. And that is yours and traditional "christianities" fatal mistake in understanding the righteousness that comes from YHWH. Would you like to learn of this righteousness, and be saved?

    Blessings in The Name,

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  • Thummim
    YHWH is his peoples righteousness.

    ...ImAHebrew posts;

    It's the big picture that you need to look at. What Spying and I say concerning the disobedience of Judiasm does in no way render a curse, it is Elohim who ordains and renders the curse upon the disobedient. Here are some Scriptures that show some of YHWH's prophets declaring how His people are cursed because of disobedience. Are these prophets cursing YHWH's people (as you claim Spying and I are), or they just declaring the truth?


    ...And if GD says that his people are not cursed? And if GD says that the sins of Israel are forgiven?

    26 Help me, O YHWH my God: O save me according to thy mercy:

    27 That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, YHWH, hast done it.

    28 Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice.

    29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.

    30 I will greatly praise YHWH with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.

    31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul. Ps. 109: 26 - 31

    ...If Jacob be cursed by YHWH, It is by him alone. But why do you and Spying rummage past 2500 years to make a curse against Jacob? GD already said that his people are righteous {Isa. 44: 22, 23}. He has already said that he is his peoples righteousness himself {Isa. 54: 17}. He has said that forgiveness comes to Jacob for his own sake {Isa. 43: 25}. Now what about your own righteousness. What became of Balak and the Moabites? You {and Spying} point your finger past Israel's righteousness so easily. I know where the righteousness of the JEWish people comes from. But where will your righteousness come from if GD already has forgiven his own Name?

    ...There is no way to gain forgiveness for breaking the law except through GD's own forgiveness.

    30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously {deliberately}, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him {unless he has his GD's forgiveness}. Num. 15: 30, 31

    ...A blessing is the opposite of a curse. Linking YHWH's Name to the JEWish people comes with a blessing.

    23 Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

    24 YHWH bless thee, and keep thee:

    25 YHWH make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

    26 YHWH lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

    27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Nu. 6: 23 - 27

    ...The Name of YHWH is upon his people or you wouldn't know what GD's Name is or where it comes from. The safest place for the JEWish people is being wrapped up in the Name of YHWH. It is not safe to dwell in the midst of christianity as you and Spying show in your desire to lift the skirt of the JEWish people to discover their sin. GD has his own Name covered with his compassion. After millions of JEWs perish among a flood of christian accusers, it has to be this way. It is not posible for a JEW to sin when GD will not allow the sin to exist. YHWH makes his people righteous! But then all righteousness comes from him.

    9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

    10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith YHWH that hath mercy on thee. Isa. 54: 9, 10

    17 But Israel shall be saved in YHWH with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end {until the end of the world}. Isa. 45: 17

    ...ImAHebrew and Spying, you just don't get it. Israel is all righteous now that GD's Name covers them. Accusing the JEWish people is like accusing GD. He is filling his cup of wrath for the mistreatment of his people.

    1 But now thus saith YHWH that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

    2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

    3 For I am YHWH thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

    4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

    5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

    6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

    7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. Isa. 42: 1 - 7

    ...Is this people being brought back to the land of Israel now? If so, they must all be righteous by GD's own words. This is called everlasting righteousness. But it is also the righteousness that christians refuse to cover JEWs with.


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  • ImAHebrew
    YHWH ordains the curse, not Spying or ImAHebrew.

    Shalom Thummim,

    It's the big picture that you need to look at. What Spying and I say concerning the disobedience of Judiasm does in no way render a curse, it is Elohim who ordains and renders the curse upon the disobedient. Here are some Scriptures that show some of YHWH's prophets declaring how His people are cursed because of disobedience. Are these prophets cursing YHWH's people (as you claim Spying and I are), or they just declaring the truth?

    Deu 11:26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
    27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of YHWH your Elohim, which I am commanding you today;
    28 and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of YHWH your Elohim, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, by following other gods which you have not known.

    Deu 27:26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

    Deu 28:20 “YHWH will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me.

    Psalm 119:21 You rebuke the arrogant, the cursed, Who wander from Your commandments.

    Isa 24:1 Behold, YHWH lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
    2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
    3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, for YHWH has spoken this word.
    4 The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away.
    5 The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant.
    6 Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.

    Jer 11:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from YHWH, saying,
    2 “Hear the words of this covenant, and speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
    3 and say to them, ‘Thus says YHWH, the Elohim of Israel, “Cursed is the man who does not heed the words of this covenant
    4 which I commanded your forefathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, ‘Listen to My voice, and do according to all which I command you; so you shall be My people, and I will be your Elohim,’
    5 in order to confirm the oath which I swore to your forefathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day.” ’ ” Then I said, “Amen, O YHWH.”

    Jer 44:20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, to the men and women—even to all the people who were giving him such an answer—saying,
    21 “As for the smoking sacrifices that you burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your forefathers, your kings and your princes, and the people of the land, did not YHWH remember them and did not all this come into His mind?
    22 “So YHWH was no longer able to endure it, because of the evil of your deeds, because of the abominations which you have committed; thus your land has become a ruin, an object of horror and a curse, without an inhabitant, as it is this day.
    23 “Because you have burned sacrifices and have sinned against YHWH and not obeyed the voice of YHWH or walked in His law, His statutes or His testimonies, therefore this calamity has befallen you, as it has this day.”

    Dan 9:11 “Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of Elohim, for we have sinned against Him.

    Mal 3:9 “You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!
    Are you seeing the big picture here Thummim? YHWH is the One who curses with a curse because of the disobedience of His people, not the messengers who declare the disobedience. YHWH said to the prophet Isaiah:

    Isa 58:1 “Cry loudly, do not hold back;
    Raise your voice like a trumpet,
    And declare to My people their transgression
    And to the house of Jacob their sins.
    Was Isaiah cursing the house of Jacob? No, he was not cursing the house of Jacob any more than Spying and I are cursing the house of Jacob.

    As you have correctly observed, the curse is prophesied to end, and I can tell you that it has ended for a people that are NOW blessed. The end of the curse, and the blessing is for those who are of the True Seed of Abraham, Moshiach Yeshua. He is the one who is living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of YHWH, and is no longer under the curse.

    Traditional christianity is not part of this blessing yet, because they are like their mother (Judaism), and they believe in the "lie," where one can remain in disobedience and expect YHWH to bless them and not to curse them. That is part of your delusion Thummim, you expect to be blessed while you remain in your disobedience, and that will just not happen. The True Name of YHWH will not allow it. You need to ask us how you can come out from under the curse.

    Blessings in The Name,

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  • Thummim
    Moab, gets a curse for a curse for trying to curse Jacob.

    ...Spying, you are missing something very important. When the text mentions cursing Abraham, it really means cursing the seed of Abraham that passes through Isaac.

    26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.

    27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which YHWH hath blessed:

    28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

    29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee. Gen. 27: 26 - 29

    ...Isaac understands and Jacob understands that it is he who curses this seed of Abraham, Issac, and Jabob violates GD's will.

    ...Balak violated this admonition of GD's. GD cursed his seed.

    7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.

    8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom YHWH hath not defied? Nu. 23: 7, 8


    9 Therefore as I live, saith YHWH of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.

    10 This shall they have for their pride, because they have reproached and magnified themselves against the people of YHWH of hosts. Zeph. 2: 9, 10


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  • Spying
    Blessing And Cursing Abraham?

    Hi Thummim,

    YAHWEH said to Abram:
    Gen 12:3
    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (KJV)
    Are these promises still in effect today? Can Jews bless Abraham today? Can Christians bless Abraham today? How about the opposite shoe? Can we curse him?

    What about the latter promise? How is Abraham, himself, and I am not speaking of his Seed here, I am speaking of Abraham himself, how is he a blessing to all the families of the earth? The dead cannot be a blessing because of this scripture:
    Eccl 9:4-6
    4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
    5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (KJV)
    Abraham must somehow be considered to be a part of the living, eventhough he has died, in order for Abraham to be a blessing to you and me. More on this later.

    Abraham is blessed by those who come after him only if they obey what YAHWEH ELOHIM has commanded:
    Gen 18:19
    19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep (leaders as well as non leaders) the way of YAHWEH, to do justice and judgment; that YAHWEH may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. (KJV)
    We curse Abraham whenever we do not keep the way of YAHWEH. Accordingly, we either bless Abraham, or we curse him through what we do.

    It stands to reason therefore, that the Way of YAHWEH, the Torah, is both a blessing and a curse:
    Deut 30:19
    19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (KJV)
    Accordingly, it is not ImAHebrew or myself that is blessing or cursing anyone. This is the long and short of it: If we do not keep the way of Lord tamiymly, then we are cursing Abraham. If we curse Abraham, then YAHWEH has promised to curse us.

    How do we know whether someone has cursed Abraham? Have they died? If they have died, and the exception here would be true martyrdom (bad things can indeed happen to good people), then they have proven that they are cursed.

    The choice is still yours.

    Sincerely, Ab

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  • Thummim
    The good, the bad, and the ****

    ...ImAHebrew, YHWH punishes the good along with the bad. It doesn't depend upon what the followers do, but rather what their leaders do. When David sinned and counted the people, it was the people who paid for his sin. There was plague that followed David's trangression. When the people of Judah were carried off to Babylon, it wasn't because they offended GD, but rather because their leaders refused to honor the year of release. In Jer. chapter 24, we are told that the people are the good figs. When we move to chapter 34 of Jeremiah, we are told that captivity comes to Judah because of its leaders. When evil happens, it doesn't happen necessarily because one is bad. You should be judging the JEWish people by your heart, and not by your mind. GD calls his people good before captivity. GD forgives their sins when they leave captivity. You and Spying are like Balak that continually look for a curse against GD's people. But GD doesn't curse the "good" even when "bad" happens to them. The world is full of corruption and there is no way to escape it all. Even Moses and Aaron sinned. Even David sinned. But the people suffered these sins and others. Has anything bad happened to you lately?


    10 Now when all the princes, and all the people, which had entered into the covenant, heard that every one should let his manservant, and every one his maidservant, go free, that none should serve themselves of them any more, then they obeyed, and let them go.

    11 But afterward they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids.

    12 Therefore the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah from YHWH, saying,

    13 Thus saith YHWH, the God of Israel; I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondmen, saying,

    14 At the end of seven years let ye go every man his brother an Hebrew, which hath been sold unto thee; and when he hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee: but your fathers hearkened not unto me, neither inclined their ear.

    15 And ye were now turned, and had done right in my sight, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbour; and ye had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name:

    16 But ye turned and polluted my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom he had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return, and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids.

    17 Therefore thus saith YHWH; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith YHWH, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. Jer. 34: 10 - 17


    3 Then said YHWH unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

    4 Again the word of YHWH came unto me, saying,

    5 Thus saith YHWH, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

    6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull themdown; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

    7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am YHWH: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

    8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith YHWH, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

    9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

    10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers. Jer. 24: 3 - 10

    ...What GD calls good, you shouldn't esteem bad. Bad things do happen to good people.

    --> 1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. Mal. 2: 1

    ...This instruction is not directed at the people, but at their leaders. They are the offenders.


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  • ImAHebrew
    Perfection is the Standard

    Shalom Thummim,

    I think we know each other rather well, and it will be a blessing to walk hand in hand with you.

    We have discussed in great length how one reveres the Name of YHWH, and it is definaetly not one who sets aside or forgets the words of Moshe. Moshe declares that his words are not idle words and if a man does them, he shall live. The words of Moshe PROCLAIM the Name of YHWH, and that is why his words should be remembered. And this is what Spying and Malachi have spoken to you, yet you allow in your theology the same thinking that "christianity" allows:

    Malachi 2:17.. In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of YHWH, and He delights in them,”
    3:14..“You have said, ‘It is vain to serve Elohim; and what profit is it that we have kept His charge.
    You teach the same as "christianity." You repeatedly tell us how you (the Jews) are forgiven, yet you deny the power of a righteous life and claim perfection is impossible. YHWH does not delight in evil doers, whether they are heathen (christian) or Jews. This is who YHWH is looking for and what He wants in them:

    Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared YHWH spoke to one another, and YHWH gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear YHWH and who esteem His Name.
    (ALL of His Word)
    17 “They will be Mine,” says YHWH of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.”
    18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves Elohim and one who does not serve Him.
    These are those who will remember the Torah of Moshe and have the wicked as dust under their feet.

    Blessings in The Name (All of YHWH's Word),

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  • Thummim
    The day of YaHudaH comes, but for whom?

    2 “But for you who fear My Name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
    3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says YHWH of hosts.

    ...Those released from the stall are we JEWs. It is us who reveres the Name of YHWH. It is our own Name, YaHudaH that makes us a family tied to our GD. The ashes that we walk over are those of our enemies. The day of YaH{u"W"}daH happens because of the wrong done to Judah and Israel by the heathen.


    12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.

    13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;

    14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

    15 For the day of YaH" {u "W"} daH is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

    16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain {being afflicted}, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

    17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and "the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions" {as with Egypt}.

    18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, {thus the ashes under our feet} and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for YHWH hath spoken it. Oba. 1: 12 - 18

    ...You need to research the day of YHWH a little better. GD delivers his people from the heathen oppressors that have wronged his people. This is also the context of Joel 3.

    ...ImAHebrew, You as well curse the JEWish people by GD's words. Balak has the heart of christianity. YHWH forgives, but whom will he forgive?


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  • ImAHebrew
    Remember Moshe's Torah!

    Shalom Thummim,

    You would do well to heed Spying's advice and Malachi's:

    Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says YHWH of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”
    2 “But for you who fear My Name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
    3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says YHWH of hosts.
    4 “Remember the law of Moshe My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.
    Checkmate Thummim. Spying agrees with Malachi, the wicked will be ashes under the soles of the feet of the Tzaddikim, and what Moshe had to say is very important. You cannot set aside the words of Moshe and think that YHWH is going to be please with disobedience. You are deceiving yourself if you think YHWH is going to accept anything less than perfection, and you are treading down a path that leads to destruction. Learn how to become a Tzaddikim, and you will be blessed.

    Blessings in The Name,

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  • Thummim
    Has GD cursed the JEWish people?

    ...Spying, understand my answer.

    5 O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of YHWH.

    ...And what is the answer?

    8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom YHWH hath not defied? Nu. 23: 8

    ...Why do you keep trying to curse GD's people by his own words? These are also his own words.

    18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

    19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

    20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old. Mi. 7: 18-20

    ...So the lawbreaker does have hope. But what of those who curse GD's people by his own words? Is it really GD's intent, to create a law that would distroy his people before his own eyes?

    4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.

    5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth.

    6 They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah. Ps. 57: 4-6


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  • Spying
    Et Tu Thummim

    Hi Thummim,

    Thank you for your reply. Will you also hold to the form of religion and thereby deny its power? Ah, the sad plight of the Jew and Christian! How will you ever enter into life?

    These are the words of YAHWEH ELOHIM:
    Deut 5:16
    16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as YAHWEH thy ELOHIM hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which YAHWEH thy ELOHIM giveth thee. (KJV)

    Lev 18:5
    5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YAHWEH. (KJV)
    Having these promises, why do you deny their promise and thereby choose death for yourselves?

    Sincerely, Ab

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  • Thummim
    Perfection is impossible!


    21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

    22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.

    23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.

    24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

    25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

    26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

    27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

    28 Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.


    ...GD associates with sinners. He forgives the transgressions committed against him at his own will. Being without a sacrifice doesn't mean the GD's forgiveness will not cover the shortcommings of a transgressor. Obviously GD intends to associate with transgressors, or he wouldn't have said that he will "forgive" them. GD's intent is seen in his words. He chooses what to forgive, and what he will not forgive. And then he associates with the transgressors that he has forgiven.

    7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Ex. 34: 7

    ...GD doesn't ask perfection, just a willing and contrite heart. If GD asked "perfection", then he could neve be pleased.


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  • Spying

    Hi Thummim,

    I disagree! The sons of Israel are commanded to be holy (separate, distinct, Leviticus 19:2; 20:7, 26), and we are commanded to be perfect (Deuteronomy 18:13):

    8549 tamiym (taw-meem');

    from 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:

    KJV-- without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

    It is not wise to lower the bar with respect to the perfection of Abraham. Abraham obeyed YAHWEH, and should you or anyone else deem themselves the "Seed" of Abraham, then you must of necessity duplicate the obedience of Abraham. This is so for several reasons:
    Amos 3:3
    3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed? (KJV)

    Hab 1:13
    13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? (KJV)
    Clearly, Abraham by his obedience proved that he agreed with YAHWEH ELOHIM, and the eyes of YAHWEH did look and do still gaze upon Abraham as Abraham does walk before HIM blamelessly.

    YAHWEH will not fellowship with those who do evil. YAHWEH will separate HIMSELF from those who are engaged in evil. Do you believe this to be true?

    Sincerely, Ab

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  • Thummim
    Perfect?, be "complete" does not mean be without sin.

    "tamiym", entire or complete. {tamiym doesn't infer, "without sin"}

    Gen 17:1
    1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, YAHWEH appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty ELOHIM; walk before me, and be thou "perfect". (KJV)


    ...Spying, Abraham was asked to be a person of "complete" integrity. He wasn't asked by GD to be sin free, but to be pure of heart and walk with GD uprightly.

    Spying writes;

    So, Abraham, having died, yet he lives. (Matthew 22:32) How so?


    ...Abraham lives in that same way that a house is a part of its foundation. Abraham is the foundation that the faith and substance of the JEWish people is built upon. Remove this pillar and who would the JEWish people be? So Abraham lives in the existance of his people, as a father lives in the existance of his children. Without Abraham, the JEWish people would be "incomplete" and without a suitable foundation to rest upon.

    ...Without the father, the child doesn't exist and the tree dies. The father is life to his children.


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