WE are HIS TEMPLE

[beseder]

not at all Spying,
the Pharisees have proven themselves over and again thatthey are the ones with the true interpretation.

We know that the feasts begin in the secular calendar on Pesach, the spring- and our disagreement first begins with Pesach, if you can figure out when to observe Pesach, then you can figure of Shavuot.
It is either to the Sadducean or Pharisaic tradition.
I think you should actually call yourselves Karisim (Karaite) or a modern day Ebyionite[ i may get to this later].

now, What did Paul, to whom you say you have much of his spirit given to you, say concerning Messiah and Pesach?
Learn from this pharisee.
Yes, you and I both agree that Messiah ATE on the sadducean Pesach- but go back to what Paul said about Messiah and Pesach in Corinthians.
Also remember, Paul became a Pharisee ONLY AFTER he met Messiah on the road to Damascus because before that he was a policeman of the court doing the biding for the sadducees- while the Chief Rabbi at that time was Gamaliel very soon after it was Ya'acov the Av(Rosh) Beit din. [and they were of the exact same family- David through Zerubabel ancestor of His Majesty Yeshuah.]

shalom u'brachot.

P.S. all of this is by the training that I have already recieved and by the reading I engaged in since we last spoke- I have not spoken with my Rabbi as of yet about this since our last conversation.

[Spying]

Paul's Spirit!

Hi Beseder,

Good morning and happy Sabbath to you and yours, my son.

Yes, I have been given the ability to understand the things of Paul (sometimes with a whole lot of effort), so it must have been given to me to share in the spirit of Paul (1 Corinthians 2:11). Caleb and Paul are perhaps the greatest of my heroes. May we be a continual blessing to them and to all the Saints for the sharing of their spirit. Having the spirit of Paul may account for my leanings towards the Pharisees, but I am a priest, and I share in the offerings of all as do you also. So, you are much more than just a Pharisee. You just have not been made aware of it as of yet.

Are you certain that we agree? Why do you mention two Passovers as if there existed two traditions concerning the offering of the Passover? Do these verses allow for the development of two traditions?:

Num 9:5
5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that YAHWEH commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel. (KJV)

Num 9:13-14
13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of YAHWEH in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto YAHWEH; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land. (KJV)

Please explain how one ordinance leads to two Passovers on the same day?

If there are two traditions concerning the slaying of YAHWEH'S Offering, then you are admitting to me that we can count many Pharisees amongst the priests for it is evident that a priest is required to officiate at the slaying of the Passover Lambs. If this is so, then Paul just as easily could have been following the orders of Pharisaical priests in his persecution and slaying of the spiritual Temple, could he have not?

Sincerely, Ab

[beseder]

Wrong, at this time in history,
The Jews- or better yet to make it very specific- the Pharisees had in no way any kind of jurisdiction over executing anyone.

The sadducees, however, if they pleaded with Rome were allowed too.
So I am positive that Hacham Shaul was a "police officer" of the sadducees. His thoughts on this? who knows.

However it seems to me that he was very zealous about this office he had.
When he encountered the Rabbi [even this title and connotation has great weight- Rabbi was only unsed amoungst the Pharisees and the academy at Nazareth was well acquainted with the great academy in Babylonia-hmmm, the Teacher from Nazareth?] on his way to get some pharisees over at Damascus then he changed way.

Now, you put blame on Pharisees?
Hacham Shaul did not become a Pharisee until AFTER he met His Majesty Yeshuah, in training to become a Rabbi.
Also, REMEMBER THE CHIEF RABBI at that time in which EVERY PHARISEE, including scribes and priests that were pharisees, followed the orders of? It was His Eminece Cheif Hacham Gamaliel- who ordered that none of the pharisees should fight their brothers that follow the teacher from Nazareth- or "you may find yourselves fighting against the Rabbinical Court" (remember, the writtings of Luqas are at the degree of Rehmetz/remez...look at PaRDeS to understand if you dont)

So, when the Pharisees heard this- they wouldnt dare raise a finger against the Nazarenes lest they be "ex-communicated" for such subordination!
Also, The Talmud clearly defines that Ya'aqob ha-tzaddiq was the Rosh beit din and he himself was killed by those that believed like the sadducees [which include, sadducees, essenes and even more the followes of byosus]

So Ya'aqov also gave orders to the pharisees and no one could counter what he demanded!
So, would Ya'aqob send a police officer against his own?
Would Hacham Gamaliel send a Police officer against his own family{Ya'acob}? NO to both questions!

The Pharisees are one to yeild themselves completely to the authority of the Rabbis- they wouldnt fight any ruling at all that was given by their Sages.
---

So the only people who had an authority to send anyone against anything were the Sadducees who had very close connections with Rome.

The Byothusians aswell, because they were very close with the sadducees.

The fact of the Matter is, IT WAS NOT THE PHARISEES!
Or Paul wouldnt have become a Rabbi
which was exclusively a pharisaic title.

Again, so was the doctrine of Ressurection exclusively Pharisaic- and look what christianity and even you modern day "sadducees" hold onto.

now, do you recall what Hacham Shaul stated in 1 Cor about the pesach and Messiah?

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Now, remember, Paul is a Pharisee when he says this.
When did His Majesty Yeshuah die?
Was it not at 3 oclock?
Wasnt this also the exact day and time that the Pharisees are observing their slaughter of the lamb by Pharisaic tradition?
So, if Messiah is the lamb to die for Pesach- it couldnt happen during the saddusaic observance if a Pharisee had said this?
also, we know that His Mejesty did not die on the saddusaic Pesach but on the Pharisaiacal Pesach.
on the same day and time the pharisees were killing theirs is the same time His Majesty was done.

Now, this also means that the sadducees were the ones taking the persecution of the Nazarean sect since the beginning- the Pharisees had no idea about the death of His Mejesty Yeshuah, which is why it is not recorded of in the Talmud.
The sadducees however knew about it very well.

The sadducees killed the lamb, the messiah, on the passover of the Pharisees.


shalom u'brachot

[Spying]

The Bending Of Time!

Hi Beseder,

Thank you for your reply! I see that I have a number of issues to explore with you, and that is good. May we be blessed to really understand each other!

I understand your desire to be part of a movement or group that has been and is now sanctioned by ELOHIM to make decisions and establish traditions that are righteous. I have the same desire.

At this last Passover, I made this comment to Hyssop,

Do you know that if indeed Messiah was killed on a Friday and raised from the dead at the going down of the sun at the end of the weekly Sabbath, then both the Pharisees and the Sadducees would be proved correct in their counting by Messiah ascending to ELOHIM as the Wave Sheaf?

I then went on to explain to Hyssop that the fulfillment of sacrifice required that Messiah somehow bend the rules of time and space. I am certain that this did occur in some fashion. We Tzaddikim accept the fact that Messiah was the Passover Lamb as Paul does state. We also teach that Messiah was the Atonement Goat which was offered or slain for the sins of the people. If Messiah is both, then somehow through the spiritual fulfillment of sacrifice, time is manipulated to accomplish the requirements of both:

• Clearly, the Passover Lamb is to be offered on the 14th Day of the First Moon.
  
• Clearly, the Atonement Goat is to be offered on the 10th Day of the Seventh Moon.

So, if Messiah is both, time is bent to accomplish the spiritual fulfillment. If time is bent, then it is possible that three days and three nights in the heart of the earth is actually only about 24 hours as the traditional teaching of Christianity on the death and burial of Yahushua suggests or otherwise teaches.

I can clearly see that the fulfillment of sacrifice requires that the rule of physical time be suspended, but I am not prepared to accept at this point that Messiah was not physically in the grave for three days and three nights in strict compliance with his words to the Pharisees (Matthew 12:38-40). So, I am still inclined to accept that Messiah was killed on a Wednesday and that Messiah was raised from the grave at the going down of the sun at the end of the weekly Sabbath.

Accordingly, a Wednesday crucifixion teaches that the Sadducees and not the Pharisees held the correct teaching about the waving of the Omer (the Sheaf of the Firstfruits).

Sincerely, Ab

[beseder]

Friday? Wednesday? HUH?

Hi Spying,

I think I am beginning to realize your stance.

See, I have learned that Messiah had died on a THURSDAY of that week.
Not on a friday as christians say or a wednesday as some other christians also say.
If you calculate the Pesachs to back then we can easily calculate when the Sadducees and the Pharisees had their seperate pesachs.

Messiah was not LITERALLY in the grave for 3 nights and 3 days or 3days and 3nights.
This is an idiom for a completion- especially the one that is written in the book of Matthew- I dont see that at all a literal book.
Hopefully you will learn about Jewish Hermeneutics and begin to see that as well.
Mattityahu is written at the Drash/Parable level- the level of a Rabbi.

Now, Messiah rose on the shabbat close to its close.
He was not in his grave on the Jewish first day.

Then he shown himself to Miriam Magdala and told not to cling on him for he has not yet went through the 7 days of purification.

after a fulfillment of time he came back down and appeared himself before the other disciples


Mashiach eats of one Pesach and dies on another.
and the Pharisees Pesach on the evening closing the 14th of Nisan while the Sadducees pesach is on the evening opening the 14 of Nisan.
He is waved coincidentally in the same day that Pharisees and Saducess accept-
and he goes through the sevenn Shamayim
is purified, is waved
and returns the same day down with a new body

NOW, what is the meaning of ShaMAyim and what does it have to do with Messiah? why can't he go up to the father in one day?
a hint- Parah Adamah

May our dispute be for he sake of Heaven

there are hints left everywhere in this post- from head to tail
hopefully you will be able to see them.

shalomu'brachot

[beseder]

Also, they were Jews

with Jewish understandings of basically everything.
A day to the Jews is only about 12 hours.
a day=when the sun shines.
when the sun dont shine is considered a cease of time.

To understand the "New Testament" and the "Old Testament" all views that is through Grec0-Roman pagan lenses need to be discarded.
Even Noachites throw away their old lenses for the new ones- though their new ones are limited because that is the plan that they have chosen- maybe you fall into this category nu?

shalom u'brachot

[israelthebride]

Messiah was not LITERALLY in the grave for 3 nights and 3 days or 3days and 3nights.

YHSHWH did RAISE HIS TEMPLE in 3 days.

Please read:
At the end of the post I said
50 weeks
instead of 50 days after PASSOVER for the FEAST of PENTACOST.
My mistake.

http://www.lo-ammi.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368

We, HIS Third TEMPLE, will bring down
the building (the abomination)
that stands over the HOLY of HOLIES.

HEB 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying,
that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest,
while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
HEB 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present,
in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,
that could not make him that did the service perfect,
as pertaining to the conscience;
HEB 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings,
and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
HEB 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,
by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,
not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
HEB 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves,
but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us.

http://www.websitesdomain.com/news/temple.htm

LOVE, RICOEL

[Spying]

The Visual Sighting Of The New Moon?

Hi Beseder,

Did not the Jews determine the beginning of the months (moons) by the visual sighting of the new crescent each month? If so, for any given year, how do we go back, two thousand years later, and determine with absolute certainty that Passover (the 14th of Nisan) did or did not occur on any given day of the week?

Any new moon watcher is readily aware that the mathematical new moon and the visual new moon are not the same. The new moon is predictable, but after searching for the new moon each month for a number of years, the new moon seems to me to not be in control of its own destiny. Clouds can hide or interfere with the sighting of the new moon. So, you really cannot go back and say, can you?

Sincerely, Ab

[Spying]

His Sign!

Hi Beseder,

There exist several tests of a prophet. YAHWEH ELOHIM has said:

Deut 18:22
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of YAHWEH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which YAHWEH hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. (KJV)

The Pharisees came to Messiah asking him for a sign that he himself was indeed the Messiah. He gave them a sign. He told them that he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

If Messiah was not three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, then we need not be afraid of Messiah Yahushua. If he was indeed three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, then we need to listen very closely.

Some Pharisees understood him literally:

Matt 27:62-66
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch. (KJV)

So, if the Pharisees understood him literally, why are you reluctant to now do so? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees!

Sincerely, Ab

[beseder]

I guess the problem that you have is that you do not know Jewish Literature.
EVEN IF IT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD IN THE HEBREW IN A SIMPLE AND LITERAL MANNER, A DRASH IS A DRASH AND IT IS NOT TO BE READ IN THE LITERAL BUT A PARABLE.

quote:
So, if the Pharisees understood him literally, why are you reluctant to now do so? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees!

So if I should understand you literally to the way you apply yourself I should beware of you and the tzaddikim, nu?

I dont know what that Parable in Matthew means, I dont have the attiquate knowledge for it.
Maybe if we could kick it down a knotch or two to the LITERAL BOOK OF MARK- called "MISHNA"
or maybe even the REMETZ Book of LUKE called "Gemara"
Midrash is a little too much for me right now.
(though I know a little of each level, im better in the literal, simple, and a little less better at remetz)
And you are indeed a sadducee, you apply the literal to everything you read- that was their problem~ which is why His Majesty Yeshuah said to them that they do not know the scripture. HE NEVER SAID THIS ABOUT THE PHARISEES not once!

So, again, you throw away Jewish idioms aswell, 3 days and 3 nights- not literal- Messiah does not need to be in the grave a complete 72 hour period- and remember this is in Matthew so it is a symbol for something in this book.

concerning this "new moon" issue, one only needs to read the text and realize that he died on a thursday.


shalom u'brachot

[Spying]

Neither Pharisee OR Sadducee Be!

Hi Beseder,

Blessings to you! If I share in the spirit of Paul, then I should be somewhat like Paul, and I think that I am in certain respects.

When I made a commitment to Messiah Yahushua that he should be ADONAI of my life, I forsook every way of thinking save for the way of Messiah Yahushua. I do have thoughts of my own, I do have traits of my own, but they do not count. The only thing that counts, the only thing that is lasting is the way and thinking of Messiah Yahushua. The Rabbis don't have a clue concerning the things of Messiah Yahushua. They are only in charge of those things that they deem for themselves as the Torah does affirm concerning a widow:

Num 30:9
9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her. (KJV)

This means that the Rabbis are indeed held responsible for the standard which they have established for themselves, but I, myself, do not belong to them. I belong to Messiah Yahushua. Therefore, I am not bound to live by their decisions or practices, but I must live by the decisions and practices of Messiah Yahushua.

How do I learn and become acquainted with the decisions and practices Messiah Yahushua? Primarily, through his Word, the Scriptures, and through his Holy Spirit. Messiah has shared his spirit with me. I also learn through his Body, the Assembly or Church. The Body of Messiah establishes the Tradition that I must follow. This tradition is different than the tradition of the Rabbis. The spirit of Messiah is the key. Without the spirit, I cannot understand the things of Messiah or the things of Paul either the Word or the Tradition. Without that spirit, I am clueless.

Does this mean that I need not learn the things of the Rabbis or the things of Judaism? Absolutely not! The things of Judaism are very important to Messiah. If Messiah desires to teach me concerning those things, then I can't help but learn. Someone shall be supplied who shall be more than happy to teach me!

Sincerely, Ab

[beseder]

Quote:

but I, myself, do not belong to them. I belong to Messiah Yahushua. Therefore, I am not bound to live by their decisions or practices, but I must live by the decisions and practices of Messiah Yahushua.


Response:

Matthew 23:1-3

remember, Matthew is a Midrash so I will expound the little that I know about this book concerning this portion.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Yeshuah spoke to the gentiles (multitude) and to his disciples (the Jews- TALMIDIM connected with TALMUD for only Jews have the Talmud so all that are connected with the Talmud are the deciples if Yeshuah)

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

The scribes' and the Pharisees' (Rabbis') Authority is in Moses(The Torah [written and Oral]) Thus they are the ones who can rightfully interpret the scripture and do so

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

SO Whatever it is they command you, noachites and my People Yisrael, that you Observe (be Shomer)- Observe[learn] and Do. but do not after their works (hypocracy): for they command yet cannot understand the Torah - for it is not in the heart- do they cannot do.

What was the fault of the Pharisees?
was it actually hypocracy as you think it would be?
I doubt that it would be a hypocracy that you would think of.

REMEMBER, MATTHEW IS A MIDRASH!
stick to mark and find your arguements there.
I am a Pharisee and see exactly how Messiah has commanded the world to follow the pharisaic teaching.
Maybe you cannot- but that is your problem, and it is a problem indeed!
You say that you have the "spirit" of Paul, yet you have no where near his training to understand him.

Those who have the Spirit of Torah Study the Torah, no?
And they study everything that has to deal with it- even the Hebrew *hint hint* and they learn the language well enough to decipher the grammar, genders- the structure of everything, even the spellings of the words to understand the Torah- this is a person who has the Spirit of Torah!

do you have this spirit?


So you say that you have the Spirit of Paul.
ok, have you studied like Paul?

You say that you also have the Spirit of Messiah.

Have you gone through the schooling of Messiah?

if so, where is your degree?
but yet, not even- for you arent even Jewish to attain it.
You aren't even a Noachite to be near it.

what is this "RUACH HA KODESH"?
Kodesh does not necessarily mean something divinely "holy"- it means "set apart" - "seperated"
thus- Ruach Ha Kodesh means The Seperated Spirit.

Who indeed has this Seperated Holy Spirit?
Every one could tell who a Jew was since the beginning- and everything in the world seems to revolve around them still.

Jews through the Pharisees(Rabbis) are the "seperated". Thus the Jews are the Spirit of Seperation through the Rabbis.

The more I learn the simple (Mark) the more I see Pharisaism, but of course you see something that you interpret yourself through your own study- I have found true faith in the studying of what was given as a chain from Sinai.

shalom u'brachot

[Spying]

Be Awake!

Hi Beseder,

Thank you for your reply, my son!

I am not looking at Messiah from a human point of view, and neither do I look at the Jews from a human point of view. We are all cells in Messiah's body. His body has been sleeping. It is now waking up. Some cells are coming to awareness. For the most part, the Jews are still asleep in Messiah. Only Messiah can awaken them. They have no power to approach him. They have nothing that Messiah needs. Everything belongs to Messiah including the spirit that dwells in your body, in the bodies of your fellow Jews, and in the bodies of your Gentile friends and acquaintances. Messiah makes no distinction between us. We all have a portion of his spirit. So, if I am being made aware by Messiah, and I think that I am, then who are you to say that I must learn Hebrew and learn Torah from the Jews? How can those who sleep teach those that are awake? And think about it, if I am waking up without the Torah of the Jews, then, why should I seek to put myself to back to sleep again through studying their Torah. What is it exactly that I lack? They may actually have greater need to learn from me, that is, from the additional spirit of Messiah that has been given to me and which dwells within me.

Sincerely, Ab

[beseder]

claims

Hi Spying,

I have gone through such a thing before even when i was not yet in Judaism.

HaShem has prepared me for the such.
It seems to me that you think that the Jews can only look at things from a Physical point of view, since you use "human" to replace physical or material.
I'll give it to you, most of us do- look at the secular, reform and conservative- but they have thrown away the Torah though they still hang on to it- they are assimilators- that is not Judaism.

Speaking about sleeping cells- how do you prove that they are still sleeping?
I've found out that they dont even have to believe in "Mashiach ben Yosef" when I wasnt even under a Rabbi.

It is only that some Jews will believe in "ben Yosef" to make sure that his mission is carried out to completion- all he needs is a few.
He doesnt need the entire nation.
His mission is in Rome.

Since you have a Talmud- look up the conversation that the Messiah in Rome had with a Hassid named Yehoshua ben Levi.

Now, I have put myself back to sleep?
You have additional Spirit?
How do i know?
How can you prove it?

as for the moment this is only a claim.
Those that have proven themselves to have this additional Spirit are the Jews- even more specifically, my Rabbi and the congregation.

You may have a place in the World to come- however, this special set apart spirit belongs only to the Jews, the noachites have not completely set themselves apart, and you yourself arent even that.

As the Talmud says, gentiles are lower than beasts.

shalom u'brachot

[Spying]

Doing The Spiritual = Life!

Hi Beseder,

Is this not indeed a wonder: A Jew seeking a sign! Surely, if I should give you a sign, you would no doubt take me literally, would you not?

I do not have to prove that Jews are asleep, at least, not to you. You yourself know that Jews are amongst the very best at holding to the form of religion. Who amongst the Rabbis have lived from Messiah to the present? As Messiah has said: Whitewashed tombs! So, why not wake up and live?

It is not a matter of looking. It is a matter of doing. If Jews could do the spiritual, then they would not be asleep.

Sincerely, Ab