Peace, Peace...

[Spying]

Hi Everyone,

A number of months ago the United States and the State of Israel declared Arafat to be a non factor in the quest for peace between Israel and the Palestinian. At that time I decried this action because it is very difficult to make peace with your enemy when your enemy does not have a name for himself. The greater the esteem and stature of your enemy, the better is the peace should agreement be reached. Should peace not be reached through negotiation, the lesser the esteem and stature of your enemy, the lesser is your glory should you be forced to annihilate your enemy. I state all this totally on a carnal or human level. So, diminishing Arafat made absolutely no sense to me.

If Israel wants peace with the Palestinian, then Israel should negotiate with Arafat and other Islamic leaders to make Islam the protector of Jewish lives and rights within Palestine. What I am proposing is that Israel should seek to put the fox in charge of the hen house so to speak. Very strong penalties, let's talk money here, should be paid by Islamic governments should extremists not abide by the terms of any such agreement. This money should be placed in an escrow account under international control and the interest on this account could very well go toward rebuilding Palestinian lives and fortune as long as the peace is in place. If the peace is broken by Muslims, then the Islamic governments which serve as the guarantors of the peace, these governments should agree to replace the funds that are dispersed to Israel because the peace has been broken. As long as the cost of war is cheaper than peace, there will be war.

Saudi Arabia should be forced to one of the main contributors of the funds for this peace. Israel should be forced to also place significant funds in this account as her guarantee that she will respect the rights and property of the Palestinians. It is also my belief that Saudi Arabia should be asked to confiscate all the funds and resources of the Bin Laden Family and place these resources in the above proposed escrow account. These funds would be returned once Asama is captured and executed for his crimes against the American people. Of course, the whole might of the United States of America would stand as an enforcer to any such peace agreement. Again, I state all this totally on a carnal or human level. Any such peace would actually be peace where there is no peace. This peace would only last for a short period of time.

There actually exists a far better way on a higher level of thought.

Sincerely, Ab

[Thummim]

A devalued currency needing healed?

...Spying writes;

If Israel wants peace with the Palestinian, then Israel should negotiate with Arafat and other Islamic leaders to make Islam the protector of Jewish lives and rights within Palestine. What I am proposing is that Israel should seek to put the fox in charge of the hen house so to speak.

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...Spying, why would the Palestinians care how much money Saudi Arabia spent on murdered Israeli's? When one decides to blow himself {herself} up, financial concerns are no longer binding. Just let Saudi Arabia try to collect. A better plan is to charge something for JEWish lives that all Palestinians would hate to pay. Lets see, a square mile of land for a JEWish life? So much for an eye or a leg. So much for suffering. So much for replacing the ruined bus. It's like putting up gold to hold up the value of a currency. JEWish lives mean nothing to the Palestinian suicide bomber, but if each JEWish life was valued to land, spending JEWish lives would become unpopular among the Palestinians. Now that's capitalism at work.

....Michael

[beseder]

wow,i would actually have to agree with thummim,
doing it this way can be the beginning of peace and over time it will be a forgotten memory about the struggles that happened before.
However, we can speak about this all that we want - this is dreaming- if something should be done then it needs to be counseled like how we are doing now- and then taken to the political authorities, but how will we be heard by them?

hmmm

[Spying]

Same Old, Same Old!

Hi Thummim and Beseder,

Do you remember the monks who set themselves on fire in Viet Nam? (I know that you don't, Beseder.) I am impressed by all those who are willing to die for their cause. Whenever 9/11 occurred, I can remember writing on this forum that I did not consider the men who blew themselves up to be cowards. I can remember thinking, "If this is what the cowards of Islam can do to us, then what is it that we will endure from the brave in Islam?" Even so, an enemy that is willing to die in order to inflict pain and suffering on his enemies can only inflict such pain and suffering once. I actually fear with a greater fear all those who live to continue to inflict pain and suffering on us. This is why I counsel that we should somehow hurt those governments that support all those that would harm us. By all means, if Islam is responsible, then make Islam pay the price!

However, I view the Palestinian suicide bombers in a different light. I view their suicides not just in a religious context. I see their suicides as the acts of desperate men and woman. Israel, itself, has caused an enormous amount of pain and suffering among the Palestinian people by her policies. Many of her policies are anti-Torah in practice, and they breed enemies. Peace cannot be made by disregarding Torah.

We agree that right now that Jewish lives mean nothing to the Palestinians. What you propose is that the Palestinians continue to be punished for this attitude. What I am proposing is that we lift up the Palestinians by giving them the awesome responsibility of protecting Jewish lives. Of course, for this to happen, Israel must of necessity discontinue her racist policies towards the Palestinians. If Israel would show that she values the lives of the Palestinians, maybe the Palestinians would begin to value their own lives. Should this occur, then the suicide bombings will end.

What I am proposing is that Jews begin to think of peace with much the same resolve as the suicide bombers. Jews must show the Palestinians that they are willing to commit national suicide in order to impact and change the thinking of the Palestinians.

Be bold and radical in your thinking and practice for peace. If you Jews are willing to be courageous and bold, you will create respect instead of contempt.

Nothing changes unless something is changed. I am writing all this solely from a human point of view!

Sincerely, Ab

[beseder]

All in all said spying you are correct...
But one thing it seems to me that people forget is this-
there are Torah abiding leaders in Yisrael, but are they heard?

Only the Torah abiding leaders would agree to thummims advice, so again it is- how will we be heard?

Those that have engaged with such practices or Torah less zionists, and they push forth lawlessness- how will we make them sucumb and the Torah observant rise?

It is either that the Orthodox Jews need to focus on other missions or they better do something to bring the Messiah here quickly before the "palestinians" are all wiped out by executing themselves and by the Israeli tanks.

blessings

[Thummim]

...Spying posts;

What I am proposing is that we lift up the Palestinians by giving them the awesome responsibility of protecting Jewish lives. Of course, for this to happen, Israel must of necessity discontinue her racist policies towards the Palestinians.

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...Spying, the Palestinians are already responsible for JEWish lives. But these lives are devalued in their eyes. Yes, the Palestinians lives also are devalued in Israeli eyes as well. But how will we put value into them when these Palestinians do not even seem to care for each other? Far more Palestinians are killed by Palestinians then are killed by Israeli's. To put value on human life is still the only answer, whether Israeli or Palestinian.

....Michael

[Spying]

Our Role?

Hi Thummim,

Blessings to you and yours! Yes, valuing the lives of others more than you value your own life is the secret of peace. Messiah said it thusly:

John 12:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (KJV)

Messiah placed the lives of others above his own, and Messiah brought life to all because he was willing to give up his own life for the sake of all. I think that I have told you this before so I am telling this again, but Messiah waged a one man war against the Palestinians, against the Jews, against the Deutsch, against Americans, against all of us, and Messiah won that war because he was willing to give up or lose his life in the process.

This war can only be viewed or grasped in the spiritual, but if all have died with Messiah, then there is perfect peace on earth. The problem that exists is simply this: There are few that are able to see and believe that this peace exists, and fewer yet, that are able to see, who are also willing to follow in the footsteps of Messiah. I know that I have difficulty in following in his footsteps. This is why I down deep inside of myself have respect for all those who are willing to give up their lives in pursuit of a cause or in war. We must learn to love others sufficiently, even to the giving up of our own lives, so that others might have life and the abundance of peace.

I am thinking and wondering about my role in this.

Sincerely, Ab

[Thummim]

What prophet has a man, if he gains the world but looses his life?

...Spying, I do not speak only of valuing human life, but also of putting value upon human life. For those who care nothing about human life, those lives must be supported by something that the people who take these lives will value. Land is of value to the Palestinians and the terorists hidden among them. But I am not able to say what would make Palestinian lives valuble to JEWs. What can be placed upon Palestinian lives to get JEWs to safeguard them? It is hard to love your neighbor while you are being hated and cursed by him. What do the JEWish people value more than peace and security? Since the Palestinians seem fresh out of this longed for desire, something else will have to be found that can be as valuable as peace and security. What would you exchange for these things?

....Michael

[Spying]

Astound The World!

Hi Thummim,

Fear and hate is crippling. Why is it that you Jews have need of peace and security when you have YAHWEH as your ELOHIM? Through the Torah, your covenant with ELOHIM, you Jews have been promised life. Why then do you fear death? Is it because you practice those things which lead to death?

These things lead to life and peace:

Col 3:12-14
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of ELOHIM, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Messiah forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (KJV)

War is an amazing event. Men fight and die for their friends. Look at the Palestinians and see a friend. Put down your weapons. Drop them to the ground. Go home and help your mother or your wife prepare the favorite meal of the Palestinian. Carry that meal across the border and walk into the first home that will receive you. Do this repeatedly, and you will secure peace.

They send you suicide soldiers with bombs. Send your suicide soldiers armed with their favorite meals and their favorite drink or clothing or fruit or whatever they might require or need. Do not send your suicide soldiers one at a time. Send them in hordes. Make an impact and astound the world!

Men will die for their relatives and friends. So, as long as our loved ones and friends are involved, fear of death is not a concern for us. So view the Palestinian as your friend and see their children as your own, and in this manner, you will secure peace!

So, peace comes initially when we learn to value (love) others as ourselves:

Lev 19:18
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am YAHWEH. (KJV)

Lev 19:34
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am YAHWEH your ELOHIM. (KJV)

Why should we not do these things? After all, YAHWEH is our ELOHIM!

Sincerely, Ab

[Thummim]

...Spying posts;

Fear and hate is crippling. Why is it that you Jews have need of peace and security when you have YAHWEH as your ELOHIM?

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...Spying, why do christians have a need for peace and security when {jesus} is their GD and messiah? Why doesn't {jesus} do a better job of tending his faith? Almost all of his apostolic followers die violent deaths. Is the record better for christians then it is for JEWs? Isn't it a death for a life, for all of us? Evil is easily as comfortable among christians as it is among JEWs. Don't the scissors cut both sides of the paper at once?

...The Palestinians will get peace when they choose it. All Israel can do is offer it. Those who desire peace are not the problem. But those who would rather not have peace have an easier path to gaining their goals. It is easier to take the peace from the land then to keep it. No matter how much I contribute to peace, even if I am surrounded by thousands who feel and do as I do, it still only takes one to take the peace away and replace it with more suffering. If the Palestinians could keep the peace and if the moslems could enforce the peace, wouldn't there be peace now? But this is not how peace comes. Israel cannot keep the peace except by applying strengthn to the conflicts that occur. Israel can build a fence. It can go after the terrorists and kill them. It can look for suicide bombers and stop them. It can seek any information that can be found on those who do not want peace and deflect their desires. But Israel cannot simply choose to have peace and have it!

....Michael