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**Spying** · 11-27-2003, 05:45 AM

Our Bloody Husband!

Hi Thummim,

Man is an image!

The Law is a shadow!

Peoples and events and places and things are types!

Names identify!

From all these things we can learn. Messiah has already learned, and Messiah is the right arm of YAHWEH ELOHIM! This right arm is red from waging war. Learn, Thummim, learn!

Paul says concerning Messiah:

Eph 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (KJV)

Messiah is the end of your seeking, Thummim. Learn from him!

Periodically, I may be able to reply to what you are learning, but I must primarily walk the road that Messiah has prepared for me. Be well, my friend, be well!

Sincerely, Spying

**Robin** · 11-27-2003, 07:18 PM

We interrupt this thread.....

Ab!!!,

Where in the world have you been? How good to hear from you. I've been a little worried. Sorry to interrupt your thread, Thummim, but I just wanted to say hello to my friend.

Love,
Robin

**Thummim** · 11-28-2003, 09:16 AM

Hiding from the truth doesn't change it.

...Spying {and now} Robin,

...You need to open your mind to the possibilities that exist. Believing only common thought is not the road of revelation. Walking the same path will only bring you upon the same stumbling stones that everyone before you have already tripped over. But test a few other paths once in a while, and you might cut a new path that all others can follow more easily. OK, so you don't care that the geneologies of {jesus} are both corrupt and disallowed having a king reaching David's throne through them. With such blind devotion, an {antichrist?} is followed. What do you loose for not searching out the truth of the matter, and excepting it? Have you any need to be shown any just claim to David's throne, before conceding it to {jesus}? Absolom wanted his fathers throne to the point of David's own death. But Absolom didn't prevail.

...There is a breach to open in the house of YaHudaH that would justly set a king upon David's throne. There is a very good name to wrap the JEWish people in {-->YHWH}. What would it bless the JEWish people, to gain the strength of the Name of their GD in their own name? What would it hurt the JEWish people to have a heir sitting upon David's throne in our world? If one wanted to heal the rebuke of this people, these two things would make a very good beginning to accomplishing it. But proving the righteousness of this people in the pages of the tanakh, would add extra strength to the effort. It is christianity that would make the hardest fight against anyone who would take on such a task. Why? I have made these very arguments to many people on different web sites. No one really disproves what I write, seeing that I like to show the proper texts. Most christians simply ignor the text and its possibilities that are open {as written}, to maintain the easy continuity of their own christian faith. Yes, Neither Joseph nor Mary can pass along the throne of David to {jesus} through the geneologies that the NT provide. Conaiah {Jechonaih} is not allowed to set a king upon David's throne. {Jer. 22: 30} The throne of David cannot leave the tribe of YaHudaH. {Nu. chapter 36} That means that {jesus} can have no earthly claim upon David's throne. Why must the "rite" be earthly? But then, the throne of David is earthly.

...Why can't Moses and Aaron atone for their transgressions committed at the waters of Meribah? Shouldn't {jesus} santify YHWH as the deliverer of his people, as Moses and Aaron were supposed to do, and not sanctify himself as the only salvation available to the JEWish people? What would it take to make the offerings of Levi exceptable to YHWH? What are these offerings really for? Did {jesus} accomplish this?

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29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth {through ignorance}, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously {deliberately}, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

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...No atonement exists for willful sin. But YHWH does forgive his people, though no offering need be given to him for his forgiveness. {Isa. 43: 23 - 25 --> Isa. 44: 22} Why must YHWH have a sacrifice to attain his forgiveness? Is it even required? So there is a path for the non - believers {in jesus} to take to their righteousness. But will christians except it, or will they damn all non - believing JEWs? Christianity has shown it's "will" towards the JEWish people in its treatment of them. No other religious faith has done worse by this people.

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5 O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of YHWH.

--> "How can I curse whom GD has not cursed?" Nu. 23: 8

6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

--> NO!

7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

--> NO!

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

--> that's all, and GD will forgive.

9 YHWH'S voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.

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...The "Name of YaHudaH" is the scepter of the throne of David. This throne is earthbound. It is through YHWH's Name that David's throne exists. Again I say, a child will be born in Israel whose right arm is red. He is the one who will sit upon David's throne.

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15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. KJV

15 Just so he shall startle many nations.
Kings shall be silenced because of him,
For they shall see what has not been told them,
Shall behold what they never have heard. TNK

...Please just consider what I have written to be possible.

....Michael

**Robin** · 11-28-2003, 10:19 AM

You talkin' to me?

My dear friend Michael,

Thanks for addressing me, but I didn't respond to your post at all. I was talking to Ab, but since he won't talk to me, I'd love to talk to you.

Michael, you wrote:

...Please just consider what I have written to be possible.

Please believe me, I always consider every word you write. I have learned a lot from you. For instance, this:

...Why can't Moses and Aaron atone for their transgressions committed at the waters of Meribah?

Hey, I've thought a lot about this since you first brought it up to me several weeks ago. Why don't you go into more detail here? I'd like to hear more about Moses not being allowed to enter the land.

And also, more about this, please, especially the part in bold.

Shouldn't {jesus} santify YHWH as the deliverer of his people, as Moses and Aaron were supposed to do, and not sanctify himself as the only salvation available to the JEWish people? What would it take to make the offerings of Levi exceptable to YHWH? What are these offerings really for? Did {jesus} accomplish this?

Michael, you also wrote:

...Robin, you need to open your mind to the possibilities that exist.

I do, I really do. I'll go right now and search for answers to this question:

Shouldn't {jesus} santify YHWH as the deliverer of his people, as Moses and Aaron were supposed to do, and not sanctify himself as the only salvation available to the JEWish people?

And thanks for talking to me, Michael. It's more than some people I know are willing to do.

Love,
Robin

**Thummim** · 11-28-2003, 11:16 AM

Would a GD whose Name is YHWH "from YaHudaH" reject his own people?

...Thanks for your reply, Robin. It was Spying that I meant to address originally, but now I get to address both of you together.

...No atonement exists for willful sin. That is why Moses and Aaron had no way to atone for not having sanctified YHWH in the peoples eyes. The faith of the people who were encamped at the foot of Sinai, was more in Moses own diety than in that of YHWH. That is why they built themselves a golden calf when Moses left them. Their GD {Moses} had left them alone. But Moses is no GD. The people would always be making idols if YHWH wasn't himself sanctified as Eloheem. He can be everlasting. Moses cannot. What would happen when Moses was no longer with them? {jesus} is an exceptable god to most christians in the same way. He is everlasting {like a god} to most christians, and to some, he even replaces GD. But most JEWs are loath to think of a man as GD. And for him to be taught as the only saviour and door to to pleasing GD, has to be refused by most JEWs who will not even consider putting Moses into such a place. When a group of writings are gathered up and put between a bookcover that includes the tanakh, those writings soon become as excepted as the tanakh is because of its inclusion with it. Its texts become the word of GD, even though YHWH never sanctioned the New Testement as he has the tanakh. The NT consists of different {somewhat conflicting} accounts of the events that occured in the lifetime of {jesus}, as well as a collection of letters that were written by Paul and a final book of prophetic doom. But was it to be held to be even in esteem with the tanakh, in the sanctity given it? This book has very many anti - JEWish texts that seem to damn unbelieving JEWs for their disbelief {in jesus}. These texts in the hands of antisemites, are lethal to JEWs. I wonder if the name of {the JEWs} would have been reason enough to allow the killing of JEWs during the holocaust, if the Name of YHWH {GD} were known to come from the name of the JEWish people. Would Europe's christians have handed over the Name of GD as quickly as they did their JEWish populations? If christians had been taught that JEWs are loved by GD above all peoples, would the holocaust have been prevented? Perhaps the name of J*E*S*U*S is now more than the Name of Y*H*W*H to most christians. But should it be that way? Showing that the sin of christianity is the same sin as that of Moses and Aaron, in their refusing to sanctify the YHWH as deliverer of Israel, is intended to put forward a different deliverer that delivers the majority of JEWs. {jesus} is a curse to more JEWs than he has delivered. If he brings condemnation to more JEWs then he redeems, why should he be thought to be the deliverer of this people? Ever since {jesus}, the JEWish people have suffered the rebuke of his name through the christian faith. Yet, I believe that most christians are looking to see things differently. We all need to reconsider our own faiths. Wouldn't you rather be saved along with the JEWish people, than in place of them?

....Michael

**Spying** · 11-29-2003, 07:51 AM

The Urim And The Thummim?

Hi Robin,

Humm! Well now, do we have parts of the Urim and the Thummim here together?

Thank you for this your public inquiry and also your private inquiry, Robin! This is a very corrective period in my life. I am being disciplined by the Boss, and it is painful for me, and I have to admit, I have not yet learned to count it all joy!

I have a personality that does not allow for half measure. If I am engaged in work, I am engaged in work! If I am going to play, I am going to play! If I am engaged in study, I am going to study! I do everything with a whole heart, and this attribute has served me well, but it also has led to excess in my life.

Writing on the internet is addictive. Writing became my whole reason for existence. I absolutely love it!

Now, I must put into practice what I have learned through my excess. This is especially true if I am to keep my date with you at Shiloh on September 22, 2103. If we learn to eat the right food properly, we will meet there!

Eating is doing. It is a work, and writing is only a small part of my eating. If I eat indiscriminately, I tend to get obese. So, I must severely limit my writing for awhile and diligently concentrate on other eating!

As time permits, I hope that Messiah will approve of my desire to write to you as well as to others on the Sabbath Day.

Sincerely, Ab

**beseder** · 12-04-2003, 10:18 AM

is it authorised?

Hi Thummim,

Have you taken this "breach" thing to a rabbi? Have you discussed it with him and also discuss it with a chaver?

shalon u'brachot

**beseder** · 12-04-2003, 10:33 AM

most jews

Hi Thummim,

I am glad that you say most Jews, I am concluding really, that you are limiting this to Orthodox Jews- in which we are the ones to say who is a jew and who is not.

But most JEWs are loath to think of a man as GD. And for him to be taught as the only saviour and door to to pleasing GD, has to be refused by most JEWs

what do you say of the chabad- lubavitch?
Some believe that Rebbe Mendel [Menachem] Schneirson is only the Messiah.
they believe that all Judaism must recognize that he is the Messiah so that the second coming (his ressurection) can be pronounced.

Some believe that Rebbe Schneirson is G-D and , notice, some may not agree- yet the chabad-lubavitch are ONE- and they consider themselves legitimate, Authentic Judaism.

They say that to believe in Moses is to believe in the Rebbe.
And to not believe in the Rebbe is to not believe in Moses.

Again, this is only a small group from the many Orthodox groups out there. And i know that the many will refuse what the lubavitcher's believe- yet even Most of these Jews see themselves ONE with the chabad-lubavitch.

what do you say of our brothers the Chabad-lubavitchers, Thummim?

**Thummim** · 12-04-2003, 05:12 PM

Speaking out.

...Antonio, if a messianic JEW can believe that {jesus} is GD, then a Lubavicher can believe that Menachem Schneirson is GD as well, though it won't make it so. The text of the torah says differently. {Nu. 23: 19}

...Aren't you my friend {chaver}? I discuss my views with many different people. Because few use this site, I've been using a messianic JEWish site lately. But it is still very much a christian site, just the same. I've used many different sites to discuss my views. My ideas are not kept to myself. I do share them openly, inviting discussion. These three things the JEWish people very much need. A good Name, a heir to fill David's throne, and the righteousness that goes with the Name of YHWH. With these things, "I hope", will come the end of the rebuke of the Name of Judah. {the JEWish people} I can open a few doors to peer through, and leave open some new possibilities to consider.

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24 YHWH bless thee, and keep thee:

25 YHWH make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

26 YHWH lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

...Do you believe what the final line of this blessing says? Would a people build their faith upon the Name of their GD?

...and if forgotten, what then?

....Michael

**beseder** · 12-05-2003, 07:23 AM

for the frum

We have not forgotten the name of HaShem.
we Jews bare the name on our very soul-
However, who is a Jew?
Or rather, who is a Rabbi to make or name a Jew?

His name is Yod Hey Vav Hey, even the vowels in the ltters give testimony and witness to how the name is pronounced.

The name is a breath (the inhaling and exhaling)- all men breathe the name.

so those who forget the name are those who willingly walk away from HaShem- and these do not have the right to be Jews or gerim toshvim.

and I wasnt sure that you saw me as a chaver

this is good!
That means you recognize me also as a Jewish student.
Baruch HaShem!

shalom u'bracha
Antonio

**Thummim** · 12-05-2003, 09:49 AM

Choices both kill and heal, depending on what they are.

...Antonio, of course you are my chaver. But determining "JEWishness" is the domain of him whose Name is YHWH.

...I have a question for you. Can a JEW bow to an idol? Would he still be JEWish having made this choice? I'm sure that we can find a place in the text of the tanakh, where YHWH calls his people who have sinned this sin, "his own people". But if they do not return to him, what then? When does a JEW cease being a JEW?

....Michael

**Spying** · 12-06-2003, 06:21 AM

Taking My Seat?

Hi Thummim,

Good morning and happy Sabbath to you!

Let's say that I have Jewish parents! Let's also say that I have a red arm! Let's say that my birth place is in the good Land! It is now my desire to fill the throne of David, and there is far less of me today than in the recent past.

Where would you have me to sit? Can you kindly point me in the right direction?

Is the throne room in Jerusalem? How do I go about making Jerusalem safe before I occupy my seat? What do I do with all the Moslems in Jerusalem? What do I do with all the Christians in Jerusalem? Where is David's Throne that I may ascend to it?

Sincerely, Spying

P.S. Did Messiah Yahushua die childless? Please, don't everyone answer at once!

**Thummim** · 12-07-2003, 11:31 AM

If it is the only store to shop in?

...Spying, this king is to reestablish the kingdom. It does not exist prior to his birth.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YHWH of hosts will perform this.

...What you must understand Spying, is that there is no other path to the throne of David, other than through inheriting the Name of "YaHudaH" through the healing of this "breach". {jesus} cannot get through his own geneologies {as listed in the NT} to claim a throne. No ones genology can be traced to David. There is very little mention of David in antiquities. There is only a single mention of the "house of David" that has been found. {jesus} is blocked from becoming king in {Jer. 22: 30 + Nu. chap. 36}. His own geneologies have closed him off from ever claiming a throne in the house of David. His problem is that his geneologies are listed and corrupted already. This corruption cannot be undone. His geneologies are his geneologies forever!

...I have told all who will listen, how to spot this child {king} by the mark on his right arm. If his parents are both JEWish and he is born in Israel, he is the king chosen by YHWH. It is not like there is another store to shop at. The tanakh is the only store to shop at if looking for a king to sit upon David's throne.

The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rulers staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs. Gen. 49: 10 NIV

...Who it belongs to has been set up in the text of the torah.

....Michael

**beseder** · 12-08-2003, 09:45 AM

philosophy is not Judaism

Thummim,
what is the difference between Judaism and Christianity?

we know the many differences- however, in ONE WORD what is the difference?

Torah you say? well yes, Torah is the difference- however not the exact word that would equate to what is the difference.

Worship? well that too

the answer is belief.

See in Judaism we believe that all is needed is for the person "TO DO"
As my Ab spying would say "TO EAT and TO WORK"- so recognize Spying to be in the same place- Spying is NO CHR1stian- nor is he some "Mezzie"- this shows that you need to understand Spying as a Jew though he is not one by name.

Chr1stianity says that belief is philosophy.
So, the chr1stian would ask a person, "If you do not BELIEVE you cannot be saved." However, what is implied in their question is, "if you do not believe [in my philosophy] you cannot be saved."

There is the difference.
Judaism says, "if you believe you will DO thus you are saved by Hesed."
There are so many different philosophies in Judaism and we accept those that are honest.
I know that there are some synagogues that will not recieve a person for conversion because they believe that Yeshuah is Mashaich.- These groups are anti-missionary groups and man of the Hard-core ultra orthodox do not have dealings with them even though it is Judaism.
Now many of the Orthdox Beit Din's do recieve this type of convert. All they want is honesty!

I have a question for you. Can a JEW bow to an idol? Would he still be JEWish having made this choice? I'm sure that we can find a place in the text of the tanakh, where YHWH calls his people who have sinned this sin, "his own people". But if they do not return to him, what then? When does a JEW cease being a JEW?

Here is the jist Thummim.
This shows me that you do not yet know Judaism- are you studying under a Rabbi by the way?

Judaism says, "if you can prove it by the Tanakh alone- then that is your philosophy."
After all this- what is needed is to debate it.

Now, i think that you have me all wrong in the way that I believe in Mashaich.
Before i spoke very general- I noticed that i did and begun to slowly get more detailed. I am still in the process of becoming more detailed- and the more I attend school for what I am learning- the more detail I know where it would be needed. And also, how to structure the words to emulate detail.

Now, since i know to what or rather to whom you are directing your question I will just give you an answer.

Yeshuah, while on earth before his ressurection was NO G-D!
Not by any means was He a gd and so be it there was no way that He was HaShem.

However, Who is HaShem to you? If HaShem had an image- what would be his image?
Would he be an old man with a long white beard, musular?
Well, He is Metatron

However, if this Metatron were to be presented on earth- the copy would be shown in Moshe Rabbeinu, Yoshua, melech Shaul, Melch David, Yeshayah ha Navi, Kohen Gadol Yehoshua, Melech Zerubavel, and etc.
All of these had a peice of messiah in them.
All of these formed part of the body of messiah.
Yet these are things that you do not know- it is obvious to me that you do not know this.

Messiah Yeshuah also shows us that it is possible for every man to achieve atzmut (oneness in essence) with HaShem.
And thus in Yeshuah was the complete atzmut (essence).

in Messiah's ressurection- which makes him the first born- he become more than a man- he became a visual form of the exact metatron.
When he went up- he went up to his former state- the one spoken by Dani'el, "the one that looks like the son of man"
who is known as the "two" of HaShem as in a kedushah meshuleshet.
So, do i bow down to an idol?
NO!
Do i bow down to a man? in retortion I ask you,
Do you not bow down to a king?
However, does this King (earthly) recieve divine worship?
NO- for he is or rather WAS a man!

hope you understand a little more the complexity of my philosophy of Yeshuah being Mashaich and being the Metatron. He recieves worship as due to a king!

shalom u'bracha

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