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**beseder** · 09-28-2003, 10:30 AM

REVEALED

There is need to fear Him.
Because it is being done before the eyes of all men, yet NO ONE WILL BELIEVE IT.
However, the man that Believes and He has fulfilled it in- WILL FEAR HIM and love him tremendously.

This is the proof for all men- yet no one will believe.
We are stuck in a "TIME TRAVELED" state- those of us that truely believe.
and it isnt many of us that truely believe. Now I can understand why so few of us will make it.
Because those of Yisrael that do not believe will be cut off as Deutoronomy said.
No one can negate that one.

shalom u'bracha achi Ab

**Thummim** · 09-28-2003, 11:48 AM

Pitching the shaft!

...So, what about all the believers that have died, whose funerals we have attended? Christianity can curse the "flesh", but that is death on this side of life. I have no curse to lay upon flesh. Why should I curse what YHWH called "good". What I want to curse is the spirit that curses flesh. {especially the flesh of the JEWish people} This spirit is evil. His work is seen in the inquisition, pograms and in the holocaust. Who would try to convince us that flesh is evil? This body of mankind follows its spirit, to wherever it leads it to. An evil spirit likes dark places, but the spirit that dwells in the light of righteousness leads its body into righteous places. I would rather kill a corrupt soul that sheds innocent blood, than distroy innocent flesh. Understanding this is to see where "peace" comes from. There is no peace for those who curse flesh. They have chosen war. But distroying a corrupt spirit will add to the peace. Can I curse flesh and promote any healing of it? The battle of battles takes place inside mankind. Man must learn peace before he can practice it. Cursing flesh is not the way of YHWH. It is the way of Rome. Cursing flesh is cursing GD's own work. It is dead bodies laying in heaps, that accusing flesh leads us to. Who is he that teaches "crucify the flesh"? Are you sure that this is not the spirit of Rome? Is Paul a Roman first, or is he first a JEW? What does he teach? If he doesn't teach what YHWH has told his people, then is he someone to fear? An evil spirit that teaches "assault the flesh" is working for Rome. If no one believes Paul, why does death surround what Paul teaches? In a sea of christianity, JEWs perish. Isn't it also GD's Name that perishes in the clutches of christianity? What test of christianity is there in seeing that the Name of YaHudaH perishes in its midst? Hasn't history born this out? I wish that another faith had surrounded the slaughter of the JEWish people. I wish that the surrounding vultures were not christians. Is the world decieved? The oppression of the Name of YaHudaH is found in the spilling of innocent JEWish blood, that has flowed enough to fill a river. This innocent blood has consistantly been shed by christian hands. Why? When do we get to open our eyes and see what price that christianity has asked the JEWish people to pay for their presumed guilt? How much innocent blood is asked? Would YHWH really ask for the shedding of innocent blood to heal the guilty? Because YHWH never asks for the shedding of innocent blood to clear the guilty, and because innocent blood would defile his altar, we know that the faith of christianity is to be questioned. Can a faith that disallows GD's people the forgiveness of their Eloheem, without the blood {called innocent} of {jesus} really be of YHWH? Why would YHWH tire of forgiving his people? He has always cleared his people of their past transgressions. He even disallows his anger to pass the third and forth generation of his people. This too, is the righteousness of the JEWish people, who have been snared in a net of christianities creation. These things are of YHWH, that I teach. But the faith of Rome {the NT} is easily challenged by anyone with eyes that see and ears that hear. I can open the doors of the truth, but few christians want to hear or see. They think that they have already claimed the throne of heaven. But they have disallowed themselves to see or hear the truth. I defend the righteousness of the JEWish people by the words of the tanakh. If I were surrounded by dark clouds, and my palms engraved with the things that YHWH has put in my hands, and if my mothers right arm were red, and I taught the Name of YHWH to all, could I be more sincere in voicing my complaint? I am purposeful in my defense of GD's people. I am also purposeful in naming their oppressors. Has christianity ever been a blessing to the Name of YaHudaH? And what if christianity should prove a curse to GD's people that are housed in the tribe of Judah? Does a curse for a curse mean anything to a christian? Why has christianity chosen to be a curse to the JEWish people, rather than their blessing? Do you believe your eyes? Again, who are the vultures and what faith is it, that surrounds the slaughtered, of GD's Name?

....Michael

**beseder** · 09-28-2003, 12:09 PM

Hi Thummim,
what you explained up above is exactly what we are NOT.

its actually the other way around.
Messiah grants the LIFE to the flesh itself so that it will not DIE at all unless we chose to give it up for our brothers- INCLUDING those that PURPOSELY INFLICT WRONG against us.
We give up our Spirit for YOU all- ONLY the people of Y'Hudah and Yisrael(scythians).
then the barbarians

**Thummim** · 09-28-2003, 01:19 PM

What open eyes can see.

...beseder,

...you seem to stare at death, but do not call it death? You must admit that "christianity" has been the faith that has surrounded the JEWish people's persecution. The giving of life by {jesus} must be taken by faith. This name of {jesus} has more often been a reason to flee it, to the JEWish people. If we are allowed to believe our eyes, we will have to see the dead bodies that surround us. Our eyes need to look beyond the oppression that accompanies the stings of death, to have faith in another life that the name of {jesus} promises. I believe that there is life in YHWH's Name. I believe that the Image of GD must be filled with GD's Name, for the Name of YHWH to lift the JEWish people into the end of our rebuke by the other faiths. Christianity has had 2000 years to grant life to the JEWish people. Until the slaughter of the multitudes of JEWs, christianity hasn't had enough innocent JEWish blood to make friends with us. Now we have a friend in christianity. But is the friendship valad? Do christians really except the salvation {and the righteousness} of the JEWish people? I do not really think so. I still think that death is in the faith of christians, for us JEWs. It is not in the heart of christians, that we are condemned. It is in the teachings of the NT. I think that the NT is not of GD, but rather is the faith of men who had no authority to write it, or it would have been written using the Name of YHWH. Text to text, the tanakh would eat up the NT like the serpent of YHWH ate the serpents of Egypt. How I constantly post the conflicts of the NT with the teachings of the tanakh, but get no acknowledgement of these conflicts.

...I ask you, if YHWH can forgive the sins of his people, and he does as Isa. 44: 22 clearly states, why then is there a need for a {jesus} to forgive the sins of Israel for YHWH? Hasn't YHWH always forgiven the sins of his people when he desired? {If YHWH can do it once, why not again?} Can YHWH allow the sins of his people to cross the fourth generation of his own Namesake? And if the texts of the tanakh say that the JEWish people's righteousness is in the Name of the {LORD} "our righteousness", why do christians not believe in this righteousness then? I present the righteousness of the JEWish people, but I doubt that even you can believe in it, yourself being bound by the teachings of the NT. If the Name of YHWH, nor the words of YHWH, nor the passing of the fourth generation does not convince you of the righteousness to the JEWish people, and you disallow the life that belongs to the Name of YHWH from being life to JEWs, then you have chosen death for your own people. Conflict does exist between what the NT teaches and what is taught in the tanakh. One book gives life to JEWs, and one gives death. {except through the conversion to the faith of the NT} You can see why I cannot accept the teachings of Paul. Death follows {jesus}, instead of life in my eyes. His faith seems like slaughter to me. Life is in the Name of YHWH. Now I ask again, what blessing is in the Name of {jesus} for the JEWish people? Why has christianity been the curse to the JEWish people, that it has been? Why is {jesus} a curse to those who only bow to the Name of YHWH alone?

....Michael

**Spying** · 09-28-2003, 04:30 PM

Repent And Believe!

Hi Thummim,

The Faith of Christianity needs "to be questioned" precisely because all have died (as far as we know) from Messiah to the present contrary to what Messiah Yahushua has said. If Christianity could show me (I come from Missouri, you know) just one who has lived, then, perhaps, I may at that time look more closely at the claims of Christianity. Sadly, no one can step forward.

Jews, like yourself, have an equally incriminating record. All have died from Messiah to the present. One would think that in all that time one Jew would have had enough gumption to keep the Law and live:

Lev 18:5
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YAHWEH.(KJV)

Sadly, the state of the Jew is the same as the state of the Christian. They die! And they will all continue to die in their sins until they learn to repent and believe!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 09-28-2003, 09:38 PM

Oh Yeah?

...Spying, death is a decision of YHWH's. He gives us 120 years to live. But he also gives us forgiveness from our transgressions when he thinks it righteous to do so. Your idea that freedom from sin gets one beyond YHWH's decision that we live no more than 120 years, is a distortion of what life is. But if we want to live all of our 120 years of life, we had better try to live our lives in compliance with YHWH's laws. We {JEWs} try. For every christian holiday, there are at least three chag that JEWs observe. We are observing one right now, with a few more chag upcoming during the high holy days. While you charge us JEWs of uncommitment, you really don't know how we practice our faith. If you want to be a true witness, you must attend. Our righteousness comes from YHWH's will. He makes us righteous. I mentioned three ways that we {JEWs} are righteous in my last post. We are declared righteous, we bear the Name that makes us righteous, and we have passed the third and fourth generation beyond which YHWH accused the JEWish people. {many millennia ago} Also, as I recall, you finally admitted yourself that the JEWish people are righteous. Have you changed your mind?
With your declaration of the JEWish people being righteous, we seem to be more in agreement on what I have posted above, then in disagreement. Yes, we have had to circle the wagon trains to fend off our questions concerning our faiths and each others, and there are many arrows sticking in our wagons, but we are still both alive.
Anyhow, it is good to exchange a few arrows with you.

....Michael

**Spying** · 09-29-2003, 06:41 AM

Yeah!

Hi Thummim,

Trying does not cut it, my friend! You all are going to die in your sins unless you get with the program. Personally, I want to live so I am learning to walk in "the Way":

Acts 24:14
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the ELOHIM of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (KJV)

Some things do not change. I was recently teaching at a forum about "the Way", and my teaching was deemed heresy, and the thread on which I was teaching was locked.

I know that ELOHIM has drastically shortened the length of time that HIS good spirit would dwell in man. Even so, what does this scripture mean to you?:

Lam 5:21-22
21 Turn thou us unto thee, O YAHWEH, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.
22 But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us. (KJV)

Sincerely, Spying

**beseder** · 09-29-2003, 08:11 AM

a christian interpretation

Hi Thummim,

YHWH's decision that we live no more than 120 years, is a distortion of what life is. But if we want to live all of our 120 years of life, we had better try to live our lives in compliance with YHWH's laws

you are wrong here as to say that humans only have 120 years to live.
This passage in Beresheet ACTUALLY means that man, from the time HaShem communicated with Noach- has 120 years to repent.
When Noach completed the Ark and filled it with what HaShem commanded, by his mercy , that should be saved- that was the 120 yr mark.
THUS, Man had 120 years to live.

**Thummim** · 09-29-2003, 11:03 AM

I conceed 120 years of life left to the perishing, but?

...beseder, Spying,

...beseder, I've hear it taught that mankind had 120 years left to live before the flood as well as mans years to have been shortened to 120 years. But I will conceed to your argument. Still, a mans lifetime is defined in the Psalm of Moses {ps. 90: 10} to be approx. 80 years. That upholds my argument that man wasn't given {eternal life} for keeping YHWH's commandments. After all, these are the words of Moses who wrote the laws. Spying, you falsly equate keeping the laws of YHWH perfectly, with eternal life. I say, "no such thing". Even if the law is held in full honor, keeping it doesn't yeild eternal life.

18 Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it.

19 Thou, O YHWH, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation. {only if YaHudaH "the throne" is the Name of GD}

20 Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?

21 Turn thou us unto thee, O YHWH, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. {this line of text is not about time, but life as it formerly was}

22 But thou hast utterly rejected us; {thus the Babylonian captivity} thou art very wroth against us.

...This is the lamentation of the loss of the temple. It leads to the captivity in Babylon. But it has an end. YHWH sets his people free. Spying, you keep making the JEWish people serve our sentence over and over again. Clearly Spying, you need to except that YHWH for his own reasons, cleared his people of their sins in the time of Cyrus.

22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: {already} shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. Isa. 44: 22, 23

25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins

...This is our {the JEWish peoples} perpetual pit. Though our Eloheem forgives us, the christians won't. For what would that make their "christ", who alone {jesus as GD} can {to them} forgive GD's people through his blood? A forgiving YHWH {without the blood of jesus} doesn't work with a messiah whose followers do not believe that forgiveness is bloodless.

...Extending the years of our lives does go with righteousness, but does righteousness really equal safety? If {jesus} makes his people righteous, why aren't they safe? Does slaughter follow {jesus}? Even his own followers are slaughtered. Death is everywhere that {jesus} is. When your messiah comes, all the righteous die. JEWs die, christians die, anyone who gets in the way of Rome dies. Without GD's Name to defend the righteous, there is no one to fight this wrong. GD's right arm on this earth will be red, even though you don't except this. YHWH only comes in his own Name. That red arm marks the location of his Name. Now, if {jesus} really came in the Name of YHWH, wouldn't everybody know it now? Wouldn't it have led to life? But {jesus} didn't come in the service of "peace" like the anointed king will. He didn't defend the righteousness of his own people. {his intercession {if he ever interceded for his peoples righteousness} wrought nothing for the JEWish people} You can believe that you have eternal life, but you can't see it. What you see is the amount of death that surrounds {jesus}. Yes, he has many followers, but then so do many others. Even christianities anti-christ is to be swamped with believers in him. But these believers, like christians have closed eyes so that they cannot see. Does a man pick grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? {like death surrounding jesus} What has christianity given the JEWish people? The vultures are there with their prey. What religion surrounds the expultions, the pograms, and the holocaust? Is this the faith of a messiah? Study the messianic texts and ask yourself, blessing or curse? You know the real answer. Then call on the Name of YHWH {YaHudaH}. {jesus} belongs to Rome.

....Michael

**Spying** · 09-30-2003, 06:06 AM

Renewing Of Our Days!

Hi Thummim,

How can you make this statement?:

Spying, you falsly equate keeping the laws of YHWH perfectly, with eternal life. I say, "no such thing". Even if the law is held in full honor, keeping it doesn't yeild eternal life.

Knowing these words of Moses?:

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which YAHWEH sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. (KJV)

The Length of our Days has made this statement about life:

Deut 8:3
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that (The) man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of YAHWEH doth man live. (KJV)

So, perpetual life does come through perfect obedience. Death is a curse. Both Christians and Jews universally curse the NAME of YAHWEH ELOHIM by the death that they die. They thereby prove that they have disregarded and forgotten the NAME of their life and length of days.

Our land is the dust which our spirit inhabits, our body. Why not turn and remember and bless the NAME of YAHWEH ELOHIM having your days in your dust renewed by and in HIM as of old?

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 09-30-2003, 10:52 AM

Coming up from the grave involves going down to it.

...Spying writes,

So, perpetual life does come through perfect obedience. Death is a curse. Both Christians and Jews universally curse the NAME of YAHWEH ELOHIM by the death that they die. They thereby prove that they have disregarded and forgotten the NAME of their life and length of days.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

...With a little bit of study, you will see that all but two people recorded in the tanakh, have their turn with the grave. Enoch and Elijah were caught up to the place that GD had prepared for them. But the rest of us have our date with death. Your quotes from the torah have to do with the penalty accessed against lawbreakers. The penalty is death for breaking many of the laws. {not all of them} But "forgiveness" is only for lawbreakers. Who are the "forgiven"? These are above the law that says that they must die, now unaccountable to these laws. While these former
lawbreakers will still die, they will not die because of their transgressions against the law. Consider this, that the law is not given to all people, but to those who are in covenant with YHWH. Is this fact to be taken for a reprieve from the grave by YHWH, for the goy'im? Has he favored those who do not bear his "Name" over those who do? I think not. Though the law is kept perfectly by those subject to it, they still will meet the grave as the writer of the law says.

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. Ps. 90: 10

...Can a person die even when YHWH excuses their sins?

18 But to the king of Judah {Josiah} which sent you to inquire of YHWH, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith YHWH God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;

19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before YHWH, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith YHWH.

20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again. II Ki. 22: 18 - 20

...Here we can see that YHWH commisions the grave though he has forgiven the transgression of King Josiah. He is excused, but the others of his kingdom are unexcused from their transgressions. They will follow Josiah to the grave. But not in the "peace" of his reign. The excused and the unexcused both end up in the grave. But these transgressions will be forgiven and the house of Judah will leave Babylon.

...Of course, you will again and again, try to reinstate the guilt of the JEWish people. You are not ready to forgive the Name of YaHudaH just yet, even though you yourself have called them righteous.

...Just what is a corrupt judge anyhow?

....Michael

**Spying** · 10-02-2003, 06:34 AM

Death?

Hi Thummim,

A corrupt judge is one who knows the truth and does not judge according to the truth.

You are quite wrong about death. ELOHIM gave Adam and Eve a LAW. He commanded them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil! ELOHIM informed them that they would die when they ate of that tree.

Satan was a corrupt judge. He did not speak the whole truth to Eve. Satan expressed to Eve what is called "THE LIE" in the New Testament Scriptures. THE LIE is simply this: One can disobey ELOHIM and live! Eve believed THE LIE and so she ate.

Now, both Christians and Jews go about teaching a form of the same lie. You just expressed the same lie to me in your last post above, howbeit, in a slightly altered form. The truth is this: All Jews die because they have transgressed the covenant of YAHWEH ELOHIM. It is that simple. Here is what Ezekiel has to relate about death:

Ezek 18:4
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (KJV)

You cannot get around this scripture, Thummim. When we die, we prove one of two things. We either prove that we have sinned, or we prove that someone has sinned against us. This is truth!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 10-02-2003, 10:10 AM

Is righteousness the solution to sins curse?

...Spying, is the forgiveness of YHWH an antidote to sin? If so, then sin is conquered when YHWH forgives it. But death still exists. On the day that Adam sinned, death was created. On that very day, Adam died. Death now existed for man. But Adam lived on for many more years. He couldn't die before GD created death. It is now appointed for all to die. Sin is not the problem. It is that death now exists. Though forgiven of ones sins, death's sting still gets you in the end. Except for the two persons that I have mentioned, {excepting "jesus", who had to die if he conquered death, as X - tians believe he did}, all have died and will. Sinlessness saves no one from death. It is the Name of YHWH that has power over the grave. This Name will not touch death. You can gather it and consign it to the ovens, but it will not die. YHWH takes his Name to himself, even if the body is burned in the ovens. He is his peoples life. That is good, since christianity doesn't believe in the salvation of JEWs who will not bow to {jesus}. That is at least 99 out of 100 of those who own the promises of the tanakh. If YHWH doesn't accuse his people of their transgressions, are they still guilty? And if he vindicates them himself, can they escape the guilt of sin? And if he shelters them in his Name, saying he will never again be angry with them, are they still guilty? And what is a promise of everlasting salvation to mean? Who owns this promise that is given to the JEWish people in Isa. 45: 17? If a continuing blessing is promised in the will of YHWH for his people {Hag. 2: 18, 19}, but it seems to vanish in the throng of the enemies that assault his people of YHWH, do we conclude that YHWH has changed his mind? I lay all these things upon the feet of YHWH's Name and place my trust in his Name. YHWH is the righteousness of the JEWish people. I believe in the righteousness of the Name of YaHudaH, as well.
There is no doubt that christians die as often as JEWs do. If they have any extra life, it is unseen on this side of life. The grave still bulges with their bodies. If the JEWish people are righteous, haven't they conquered sin through that righteousness? Even you say that this people are a righteous people. But you continually accuse them of sin. Either curse or bless. If sin is unto death, righteousness must bring life.

....Michael

**Spying** · 10-03-2003, 05:26 AM

The Formula For Life!

Hi Thummim,

Nay, the only antidote for sin is repentance.

Nay, death existed long before the sin of Adam!

Nay, Adam did not die twice!

Nay, sin has always been the problem!

I am not speaking in this thread about power over death and the grave after one has died. I am speaking about living and not dying! What is the formula for pepetual life according to the NAME (what is a name save that which is spoken over someone?) or Word of ELOHIM? Here is what YAHWEH says; yet, who is there that believes HIS word?:

Ezek 18:5-9
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith ADONAI ELOHIM. (KJV)

Why die when a formula for life exists that we may follow? Notice that there is no mention of forgiveness in this formula for life!

Do you indeed believe in this NAME or Word of YAHWEH, Thummim?

Sincerely, Spying

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