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**Spying** · 09-26-2003, 04:34 PM

No Available Means!

Hi Thummim,

Thank you, my Friend!

I have had occasion recently to give much thought to atonement. I primarily think of atonement as being a way of "a making up for". I have a whole lot of things to make up for with a number of different people. I greatly desire to make up for the manner in which I have treated my wife. I suppose that when atonement is made, then perhaps she will be in my life again. Whether or not that happens, I still have a desire to make atonement to her. So, I do understand my need to make things right before ELOHIM whether or not ELOHIM HIMSELF actually has need of my atonement or desires my atonement. It is certain that someone does have a need for atonement; otherwise, ELOHIM would not have made atonement a Law, and ELOHIM would not have made your life dependant upon your ability to keep this Law.

At least I have a chance to make atonement with my wife.

Unfortunately, Thummim, you have absolutely no chance available to make atonement with ELOHIM, do you?

Sincerely, Spying

P.S. You are not Goliath, but in my estimation you are a giant in you own right. You are a man of stature! Have a very good high Sabbath!

**Thummim** · 09-28-2003, 10:32 AM

Being half healed doesn't work.

...Spying, it is so very good to hear from you. I can understand that any discomfort that you think, that you have set between your wife and yourself, causes discomfort to you. Do you know that in JEWish thought, man {Adam} is an androgynous creature prior to his separation from Eve? That means that he is half of a person without his wife. The thinking for this is that Eve is taken from Adam, making him half a person without the other half of himself. Working on attaching your halves comfortably together, touches the spirit of life within you. My desire for you is that you can fill the space that exists between you and you.
Atonement {Kaphar'im} is not like paying a fine to heal transgressions. It is a {covering}, and is like a blanket that is thrown over holy ground. Kaphar literally means "to cover". It always belongs to GD, never to man. When Moses approached GD, YHWH told him to take his shoes off. The reason being that he was about to walk upon holy ground. Wouldn't it be nice if their was such a covering to allow YHWH's people to dwell with him? That is what a Kaphar is for. If you cannot take off your shoes, then a covering is needed to allow one to approach YHWH and live with him. Even a mans unintended and unknown sin is like the stuff that gathers on the bottom of Moses's shoes. You need no Kaphar for your wife. You need to absolve the things that are standing between you and your other half. Write a {mutual} law and put it to work to devour those obstacles that keep you from being "one" whole being. You have mutual needs between your two halves that you need to take care of. YHWH's way of attaching himself to his people is through a "law" that will keep his Name what he wants it to be. Make your marriage what you want it to be {with your wifes help, of course}.

...It is so very pleasant to chat with you again. If I misstepped my place here, please forgive me. In truth, only your wife and yourself have the necessary keys to heal the bumps in your relationship. It's good that you care enough to invest yourself in a solution that will comfort the both of you.

....Michael

**Spying** · 09-30-2003, 07:50 AM

My Partner And Myself!

Hi Thummim,

Thank you so much for your insight and counsel. I have given a whole lot of attention to the issue of healing since my partner left me. I say partner because my therapist made me change my words with respect to my wife. He will not allow me to speak of her as my wife. He requires that I use her first name or refer to her as my partner in order that I am forced to be aware that my thinking must change. My therapist is Jewish, and he is an anger management specialist, and he is very good at what he does. He is a traditional therapist, and traditional therapists believe that healing takes place unilaterally.

I have come to understand, as the subject of your last post to me states, that true healing does not take place unilaterally. I know this to be true because of what I believe about Messiah and my relationship with him. It is through the union of his spirit with mine that I am comforted, purified, and made holy. I cannot become these things without his spirit present.

Our physical relationships and especially the relationship of marriage do teach us that healing takes place in a relationship. This I firmly believe. Traditional therapy requires that the damaged and wounded relationship be set aside until each party takes whatever steps are necessary to heal themselves. This goes against reality, and it indicates why the vast majority of marriages end in divorce whenever traditional therapists become involved.

Don't misunderstand me here. Whenever strive and contention and abuse exist in a marriage relationship, it may be necessary for a separation to take place, but this separation should be only after all else has failed. How do I know this? Well, this is exactly how ELOHIM works with us. HE does not withdraw and take his HOLY SPIRIT from us for those things that we do in ignorance. ELOHIM does withdraw HIS SPIRIT for deliberate sin and rebellion, but even then, through repentance, ELOHIM will relent and remain in the relationship. There exists a very famous scripture which supports this view. I need not mention it. You know what it is.

I have much more to say on what you have related, and again, I thank you so much for your thoughts and hopes for the healing of my partner and myself.

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 09-30-2003, 11:13 AM

Heal together.

...Spying, why I don't have a better answer to give to you than that already given, I am glad to hear that your therapist is JEWish.

....Michael

**Spying** · 10-02-2003, 05:20 AM

Mindful Of Man!

Hi Thummim,

I knew that you would like the idea that I had a Jewish therapist!

I desire here to present my conception of man:

Man is the image of ELOHIM. Man is a physical reflection of a spiritual being. We are to ELOHIM what our mirror image is to us, a mere reflection. What this means is that ELOHIM, who is spirit, originally inhabited and controlled the physical universe in much the same fashion that we do inhabit and control our physical bodies. Thus, the physical universe is meant to be the body of ELOHIM. This aspect of ELOHIM was lost through the rebellion of Satan and his cohorts. So, the universe lost its spirit and was subjected to separation and decay through rebellion. The ever expanding universe that we see today is not how the universe originally existed. Originally, the physical universe was unified just as our physical bodies are unified.

Man was created male and female. So, both natures are found in ELOHIM!

The female side of Adam was separated from Adam when ELOHIM separated and fashioned Eve from the bone and flesh of Adam! Adam was unaware of his female side until Eve was brought to him. Some Jews say that Eve existed as the backside of Adam.

I do not feel that Eve was aware of an existence apart from Adam until she was taken from him. So, what we are is made known to us through separation and then reunion and acquaintance. We are made whole through the sure knowledge and reunion of both natures, male and female. This takes place in a marriage over time with a whole lot of effort. It is not an automatic process.

Man is a living soul. This living soul is both male and female.

This living soul was made when ELOHIM breathed HIS spirit into Adam. The material part of Adam is dust or earth. So, a soul is earth animated by spirit. Each of our bodies house a portion of the spirit of ELOHIM. A living soul can die. The soul dies whenever the spirit departs the body. Our spirit at death goes back to the ELOHIM who gave us his spirit in the first place through the creation of Adam. So, the soul is not immortal, but the spirit is eternal. The spirit in each of us has existed for ages, and the spirit goes back to ELOHIM knowing everything about its activity in our bodies as a living soul. Thus, the spirit is a record of our life.

How do you view these things?

Sincerely, Spying

**Rovivrus2** · 10-02-2003, 07:03 AM

Also spying

Dad, I know that you know that I have been reading this conversation. Are you trying to reel me in?

Therapists don't end marriages, spouses end them.

Be careful there Mr.
(smile)

Love,
R2

**Thummim** · 10-02-2003, 11:48 AM

My faith as it works in real life.

...Spying, at first I want to state that blood is only the life of the body. The spirit is life without blood. The soul is the life of the body. Without blood, it is lost. In truth, then, saving ones soul cannot exist without emptying the graves of the men {and woman} whose souls are saved. But the ruach {spirit} belongs to YHWH. He gave it, and it returns to its owner. It is the breath of YHWH. The hebrew word for soul is {nephesh} which means "breath". I except this {Nephesh} as man's breath. Ruach means wind. It refers to one's spirit. This is YHWH's own breath of life. This makes it easy to understand the difference between the two "breaths of life". Now I believe that the mirror reflects back the image of GD. I believe that GD exists in his Name. If he breaths his Name into his image, then he has done what the tanakh strives to do. That is YHWH, the Name of GD living in the man that he created to recieve it. It is an attempt to give GD's creation of man, his own life. I see "Hashem" {the Name} as GD's breath of life. GD's Name is like his own seed, and is found in his people. A family has many names in it, but one name is above all others. This Name is patriarchal and establishes parentage through the name of the patriarch. The trunk of the tree is Issac, and Jacob. The root is Abraham. The branches are the sons of Jacob, called Israel. One of these branches bears the Name of YHWH. It alone suvives in it's Name. All the other names have been swallowed up by the world. But the Name of GD is strength to his peoples.

...I believe that YaHudaH, the JEWish people, will give birth to their brethren when the land of Israel is repossed and redivided into the tribes of Israel. The JEWish people are gathered out of the body of the worlds peoples, where the tribes of Israel disapeared, and they carry the seed of Israel in them. The Name of YHWH is found in the Name of YaHudaH. Believing that prophetic fulfillment exists in wrapping GD's people in His own Name, I believe that this idea of YHWH breathing his Name into his people will happen. It exists in prophecy. A king will be born to YaHudaH through the path set up for it {Gen. chap. 38} and he will establish the throne of David. He is called father of all JEWs because this is where his rite puts him. By his mothers red arm, he claims his rite as a JEW. By a red thread tied upon his arm by YHWH, a child is grafted into the geneologies where Perez exists. This makes him as well, father to all JEWs. The Name of Judah belongs to another than the patriarch "Judah". What Onan knows {that his seed will not be his} is what Judah also knows. Though Er has heirs for his property, it is through Zerah that the true claim is made to the Name of Judah. But this involves a Canaanite and Zerah's rite to being the secondborn, with the rite of the firstborn tied to his wrist, a replacement for Perez. It is the story of Jacob and Esau retold along with its transfer of the rite of the firstborn. When this Canaanite inherits the Name of "Judah", he will appoint a heir to the throne of David. Where both the priesthood {YHWH} and the throne {YaHudaH} are his by Name, he divides both into two heirs, one for the throne of David, and one for the priesthood of Aaron. The throne's heir must have a red arm. It is like the tying of a red thread onto the arm by his Eloheems own choice making this arm, like the arm of YHWH. Remember who Melchizedek is. He is both priest and king of Jerusalem. Being a Canaanite, he is still exceptable to YHWH. In this person, the names of Perez and Zerah are switched. All that is his, the people of YHWH will inherit. But he himself belongs to YHWH. {GD keeps his Name} If the people of Israel should forget the Name of their GD, he will be necessary to cover all JEWs with the Name of their Eloheem. He does this with his claim over the rite of Perez. He, whose Name is both YHWH and YaHudaH, {his rite} covers the JEWish people with these Names like a father covers his own children with his own Name. That means that all JEWs now are holy and can use holy vessels {Zech. 14: 21} to eat from and are now righteous through the Name that makes them righteous. It is not "the LORD" our righteousness, but "YHWH" our righteousness that makes this a holy people. The only door open to a Canaanite to enter the Name of YHWH, belongs to him. Because he is a Canaanite and yet lays claim to the Name of Judah, he is excepted as being JEWish and is exceptable to YHWH as such. How can he be otherwise? He is a Canaanite priest that serves the Name of YHWH, and by the Name of Judah, he is also the king of Israel. But he will not sit in a throne here upon the earth. He will appoint a heir to do so. Again the child that is given to the people has an arm that is red. It is living prophecy. The beginning image is filled with the Name of GD through the "hidden" one whom people are unaware of. It is all set up by the tanakh's authors. The confusion is that there are "two" who have this rite that involves a red arm. It was the mother {Tamar} who was consecrated to the Name of YHWH {twins in her womb} with thirty pieces of silver. Redeeming her from GD's Name would divide Israel from the tribe of YaHudaH, making YaHudaH now free to give birth to Israel without {X - tianities} help, which itself rejected the JEWish people. {X - tianity} gets what it gave the JEWish people. Do you know what that really is?

....Michael

**Spying** · 10-03-2003, 06:08 AM

What Is A Marriage?

Hi Rovivus,

Oh, maybe a little!

I have set some clear boundaries for you and your mother. Notice in my post above that I did not quote the Word of ELOHIM that conditioned my reasoning. That was for your sake so that you may read without hindrance.

Even so, I am looking forward to discussing marriage with you without making mention of the Scriptures. In effect, I am tying both hands behind my back

so you should have great opportunity to get your point of view heard here!

To give you an example, I could ask you to go read the first five verses of the third chapter of Genesis to see a remarkable account of a therapist in action, but that would be unfair of me and not according to the boundaries that we both know must exist for us! So, I will strive to make no mention of the scriptures in our discussions.

Before we determine how a marriage is set aside or ended, perhaps, we should both come to an agreement as to what exactly a marriage is? What is a marriage in your mind?

Sincerely, Ab

**Rovivrus2** · 10-03-2003, 06:40 AM

Five daughters..

Dad,

Thanks for leaving out the scripture—now my eyes will see more clearly as we converse. In fact, reading what you wrote makes me feel validated and happy.

When I was reading your post to Thummin from above, it was interesting to see that using the word partner is such a change for you. In my generation, your mate, or spouse, or boyfriend or girlfriend is commonly called a partner. Well, for sure in my profession. I, of course, find it acceptable to use the words husband and wife—but it sounds like good practice to use the word partner. I do believe that marriage is a partnership. We all know that I am not yet married. I don’t know what things in my relationship will transform after we have made it official.

A healthy marriage is one in which two people feel secure, content, loved, and safe. Partners should not be afraid of one another in any way. Partners should share mutual respect for differing beliefs, but find ways to work as a team when it comes to such things as parenting. A healthy marriage has conflict and arguments, discussions, and date nights. It has trust, emotional availability, honesty, and shared power. There’s always a big debate about whether partners in a relationship should be considered equals. Someone usually says that “one person always has more power than the other”. Well, I think that the power shifts from situation to situation, but should balance itself out equally in the end. For sure, each person should be the boss of themselves—but not of each other. That one is hard for me, because I like to be bossy! (smile)

It’s very interesting to me, because you know the roles of women in our family, and in the church that I was raised in—so you know what our example has been. Yet, you somehow now you have five very independent, outspoken daughters. I will try to help you learn what you have taught me indirectly throughout my life. You have helped me to become the very woman that you have often argued that a wife “should not” be. And if I might mention God here, God did give you five girls, not five boys. I often wonder why that is.

That’s all for now.

Love, R2

**Spying** · 10-04-2003, 08:34 AM

Blood And Atonement?

Hi Thummim,

Good Sabbath to you and yours.

I know that you are on to something, and I don't know quite what it is, and I am certain that I will have your help in figuring it all out.

I have always been intrigued by the red thread. We see this thread in other stories. Tamar is also of great interest to me. Of course, you know how I must always look at all of these things through the eyes of Messiah Yahushua. There is only one Jew who is my Father and his name is Messiah Yahushua. To him only will I submit and bow the knee. I know that Messiah is the greatest. It is not easy for Joseph to submit to Judah, but I eagerly and readily submit to Yahushua.

Anyways, I am going to continue to be persnickety with you and allow the Pharisee in me to continue to reveal itself even though I am Tzaddikim.

The blood is not the life of the soul; even though, there exists this scripture which by itself seems to say so:

Gen 9:4
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (KJV)

Man is a living soul, and man is flesh and blood. The life of the flesh is blood, but another scripture further states that this life is actually in the blood:

Lev 17:11
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (KJV)

In another place through Moses YAHWEH ELOHIM HIMSELF claims to be our life:

Deut 30:20
20 That thou mayest love YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which YAHWEH sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. (KJV)

So, if the life is in the blood, and if the life is YAHWEH, then YAHWEH of necessity is in the blood of each of us. YAHWEH is the life of our souls.

We can further conclude that when YAHWEH breathed the breathe of life into Adam that this life is the spirit of YAH. So, it is not the soul that goes back to YAH at death, it is the spirit of ELOHIM that comes back to ELOHIM at our death as scripture does state:

Eccl 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto ELOHIM who gave it. (KJV)

Accordingly, if we understand these things, we can begin to fathom how the shedding of blood makes atonement, can we not?

Sincerely, Spying

**beseder** · 10-04-2003, 11:53 AM

This might help in insight.

I know that FOOD is what keeps the soul of a man in the body.
The longer one goes without eating the more the soul will depart from the body.
Thus the same thing with the Beit HaMikdash.
That was where heaven and earth were KISSING. And that was where the Torah was delievered in Teaching, mainly.
***notice how eating, kissing(a sexual connotation) and teaching all have to do with the mouth. this may be of help too.***

so the beit hamikdash is what kept RuachHaShem here with us on earth and it did the earth well. However, the soul of the earth departed in its destruction.
shall they reunite?
the Besurat MashiachYHshWH tells us that it will and become ONE.

but how can this tie into what is being spoken? I hope that it can help in some way

shalom u'brachot
Shabbos

**Spying** · 10-05-2003, 06:05 AM

Marriage Is?

Hi Rovivus,

Thank you for your reply! I know that I have been blessed with five daughters, and I consider each of you to be a blessing from ELOHIM for the good of all and especially for the good of my family! You were raised and encouraged to speak your mind and to argue for your beliefs and desires. This was done deliberately so that one day you may realize that you were prepared to stand strong for the truth. It is not easy to stand against the prevailing wind, but all of my children were trained to do so. It has not hurt you. It has made you strong.

Thank you also for relating to me some of your dogma concerning what a marriage is. If marriage is a "partnership", then it is a relatively new phenomenon, and we are forced to examine our history and assign a new name and definition to all the relationships from which we are derived! If marriage is a "partnership", i.e. if the word "partnership" is descriptive of the essential nature of a marriage, then we are all indeed proven to be bastards!

Since you describe or assign the attributes "healthy" and "official" to a marriage, it goes without saying that an unhealthy and unofficial marriage must also necessarily exist. I am curious as to how or what you would deem or characterize these marriages to be?

Sincerely, Ab

**Spying** · 10-05-2003, 06:45 AM

Our Spiritual Soul!

Hi Beseder,

Good day to you, my son! As I read your words, I am reminded of the discussion that we developed with DeAnna after you first appeared on this forum. DeAnna was serving food when I last heard from her! The Fast is soon approaching. We must afflict our souls. Without food and water, the soul dies. Shortly, we must deprive our physical souls of physical food and water before the dawning of the coming Holy Day!

If physical food and water maintains the physical life of our souls, I wonder what eating and drinking the spiritual (Remember that eating and drinking is "a work" in my mind) will do for our collective spiritual soul which is Messiah Yahushua? Is physically fasting on the Day of Atonement a spiritual eating for you and me? What think you?

Be thou blessed in the coming affliction!

Sincerely, Ab

**Rovivrus2** · 10-05-2003, 09:05 AM

Awareness....

Dad,

I use the word “healthy” to describe my thoughts, because indeed anyone can be “married”. When two people get married, they have formed a marriage. Anyone can do it at the local Justice of the Peace. So, I don’t like to say or write a word like marriage without clarifying that I am speaking of a healthy one.

And furthermore, there is no one universal definition for a healthy marriage. I can describe characteristics that I feel are important, but the two marriage partners must ultimately decide whether their marriage is healthy for each of them. (When I use the word healthy, I am speaking of emotional health, which we all know also impacts our physical health.)

Let me ask you this. Do you think your parents had a healthy marriage? Did you witness connectedness, love, security, and equality? Your current views on marriage are a result of what this life has shown you, as mine are also. We do so commonly walk forward into the footsteps of the parent who’s gender we share. So, why is it that you have similarly mirrored your father’s role in a marriage, and yet, in my relationship, I resemble the opposite of what my mother’s role has been?

I will give you a hint. Have you ever had a conversation like this, with your Dad?

Love, R2

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