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**beseder** · 09-24-2003, 10:31 AM

THE LIGHT

Hi Thummim,

I know that you were speaking in a different use, symbolically, of the light.

However, not even us Jews know that light- do you yourself know it thummim?
In truth, i think not- or rather in fullness, i think you do not.
I am glad that you recognise the name- infact you helped me recognise the name.
However, NOW it is time to recognise the light.

What does the Tanach say the Light is?

shalom u'bracha

**Thummim** · 09-24-2003, 11:29 AM

Who is among you that feareth YHWH, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of YHWH, and stay upon his God. Isa. 50: 10

...It is the Name of YHWH that outshines the light of the sun in the tanakh. The glory of this Name is also the glory that lifts the JEWish people out of the assault against our Name. In a skilful hand {of one who takes the time to learn this Name} it makes a terrible sword to use on those who accuse the JEWish people by the words of the Bible. This Name is our strong tower. We can take shelter in this holy Name. The Name of YHWH is our righteousness. It belongs to all JEWs. It is mishpachah. Even the lawbreakers are not cast out of the family for their transgressions. They {the lawbreakers} are chastened, but they still remain a part of their fathers Name. If we are trained to see Hashem in the words of the prophets, we see the light of our existance. YHWH is a living Name. It holds our lives in it.

The name of YHWH is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe. Pro. 18: 20

....Michael

**Thummim** · 09-24-2003, 12:33 PM

Open eyes?

...Antonio, Please list some of the ways that {jesus} has blessed the JEWish people. Coming from a blessing for a blessing and a curse for a curse approach to understanding the enemies of {YaHudaH}, I want to know whether to bless {jesus} or to curse him.

...What blessings are to follow our messiah? {Peace, the reposession of the land of Israel, the knowledge of GD's Name and the end of the rebuke of our {the JEWish peoples} name, everlasting righteousness, justice for the assault led against us, the comforting of the JEWish people, the merging of our spirit to that of our Eloheem, one Name for a nation of "priests", etc... I'm sure that you can name other blessings that belong to us} Now how many of these blessings does {jesus} have a claim too having given us? It is not the blessing of the world that is prophecied for us, it is our own blessing. Many things have to come together to mark the arrival of our messiah. A child must be given to us, and he must sit upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. He must father heirs to keep the throne occupied {in our own world and in Jerusalem}. You ask so little for us, of your messiah. But the promises are so very great that are made to us in the tanakh.

...{jesus} came, and we were slaughtered. He even cursed Jerusalem {Lk. 19: 43, 44} rather than sticking to the words of Isa. 40: 1 - 3.

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of YHWH'S hand double for all her sins.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {Mat. 3: 3, Isa. 40: 1 - 3}

...In Lk. 19: 43, 44 {jesus} proves that Matthew is wrong in picking the time of the messiah. Instead of righteousness comes a curse, instead of peace comes war. Instead of the reoccupying of the land of Israel, comes the separation from it. Have you ever used a balance scale? Knowing which side is "less" from which side is "more", is necessary to be just. The goy'im do not care how the scales dip as long as they favor themselves. The proverbial goy finger is always on the tray that is on the side of their own reward. Allowing {jesus} to own the gates of heaven over YHWH owning them, will never favor us. Not one out of 100 of us {who bears the name of YHWH} is allowed access to christianities heaven. It all stops just shy of being a sign on the gates of heaven saying, "JEWs are not allowed". This is what the world did to the JEWish people when the holocaust was happening. They allowed only the fewest of us access to life. But doesn't the Name of YaHudaH really own the gates of heaven? I call christianity, "robbery". I call christianity and it's NT, the faith of Rome. We both know what Rome gave to the JEWish people. You think that I cannot see the light. But I know the Name of YHWH and teach it to all who are willing to learn it. Once you begin to understand it, you will never again see the tanakh the same way again. Now the light of GD's Name will shine from its pages with a better message for JEWs, than christiabnity has for us. All of our blessings belong to the Name of our own GD, and not to the Name of {jesus}. The rock that christianity doesn't build its NT upon is the Name that goes with the rock of David. But then, that is our Name. We are the owners of the blessing in the tanakh. Why should we let the christians divide up our blessing for us and take its part first? They are not called by the Name of our GD! All I want is a more equitable "cut" since the covenant is really ours.

....Michael

**beseder** · 10-08-2003, 11:59 AM

Messiah gave us blessing.
He restricted our destruction.
And this you call a bad thing
though he allowed that Heaven and earth not kiss anymore- He allowed that we would live and go through what we all went through so that we could learn.
There were many reasons why Heaven and earth do not kiss anymore (destruction of the Temple) however the main one is Baseless hatred.
Not ONLY against Messiah YHshWH, Not only against Ya'acov brother of Messiah, But against ALL OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE- and even those that were exiled known as Goy.
We speak lashon Hara back then and yet know we still havent learned.
Messiah has patience with us.
YOU SEE THIS AS A curse- NO DOUBT it is a curse that we had brought on ourselves because of our sin against Torah.
HaShem CANNOT ALLOW SIN, AT ALL. This is something you cannot seem to understand in its fullness.
THE ONLY WAY for US TO RECIEVE forgiveness is if we change. POINT and BLANK---> CHANGE!
What is the meaning of Yom ha din(yom teruach and Yom Kippur thummim? YET WE HAVENT LEARNED, WE HAVENT CHANGED. AND ALL OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH RECIEVING THE NAME of HASHEM- yet we continue in the same road we have been on.
individuals have come to realise something about baseless hated, however, collectively as a PEOPLE we are still in the same boat- BASELESS HATRED, Lashon hara every single day toward eachother.
Tell me, HOW CAN YOU yourself thummim see anything with your mind aswell still entrapped in baseless hatred?
Messiah gave no curse, He gave warning- and held back his peoples destruction though we were beaten till we could hardly stand- look at us now.
All of this is his doing- and because we stand where we are now- there is obviously a chnage happening in the portion of YHWdH.

**Thummim** · 10-08-2003, 05:52 PM

Which side do you prefer?

<---{curse}----------------------------------------------{blessing}--->

...A simple idea is that these two things are different from each other. The text of the tanakh speaks of one or the other. Life is found in a particular direction. Death inhabits the other. {jesus} has a place in the scheme of these things. One direction speaks of what {jesus} has accomplished for the JEWish people. Hope lives on the other side. With some effort, you will understand.

....Michael

**israelthebride** · 11-02-2003, 12:35 AM

Yes, MICHAEL,

I see our GOD'S NAME as YHWH.

I, also, see our SAVIOUR GOD
come into this world to be our only SAVIOUR.
____________

JER 31:6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry,
Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.

I believe that I AM one of these WATCHMEN.

JER 31:7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations:
publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

JER 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth,
and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together:
a great company shall return thither.

JER 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

JER 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off,
and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him,
and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

JER 31:11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob,
and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

HE, HIMSELF, as our SAVIOUR has ransomed US from sin.

JER 31:12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD,
for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd:
and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

JER 31:13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together:
for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them,
and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

JER 31:14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness,
and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness,
saith the LORD.

JER 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

JER 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

JER 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.

WE are, all, going back HOME to the only land PROMISED to US.

JER 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised,
as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me,
and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.

JER 31:19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed,
I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded,
because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

JER 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child?
for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still:
therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him,
saith the LORD.

In HIS MERCY, HE has accepted US as HIS PEOPLE
because WE accept HIS SALVATION as our SAVIOUR.

JER 31:21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway,
even the way which thou wentest: turn again,
O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.

JER 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter?
for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

JER 31:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;
As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof,
when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee,
O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

JER 31:24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together,
husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.

JER 31:25 For I have satiated the weary soul,
and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.

JER 31:26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld;
and my sleep was sweet unto me.

One day WE, HIS PEOPLE, will wake up from our lives of sin
and CHOOSE to BE with HIM and follow HIS WAYS.

JER 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah
with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

JER 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them,
to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy,
and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

JER 31:29 In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

JER 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Because HE has acted as our SAVIOUR,
no one has an excuse
as to why they did not choose to COME to HIM.

JER 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah:

JER 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them,
saith the LORD:

JER 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

As our only SAVIOUR, HE has put HIS LAW in US.

As our only SAVIOUR, to BE TRUE to HIS WORD,
HE had to BE a human to pay (ransom US) for our sin.

The sin of the first humans had to be dealt with
and as our only SAVIOUR,
HE could not allow no human to SAVE US.

In SAVING US,
YHWH, as a human, took the LAW and put it in US.

Because HE came as one of US, to SAVE US,
HIS COVENANT with US is COMPLETED.
HE, as a human, put the law in HIS and OUR inward parts
and in HIS NAME, YH SH WH.

Now, HIS LAW is in US.

No one has any excuse not to CHOOSE HIM.
If one chooses against HIM,
that one chooses against HIS LAW.

YHWH, is GOD.
As our only SAVIOUR, HE is YHSHWH.
HIS LAW, in US, is HIS SPIRIT of TRUTH.

WE, who are called by HIS NAME,
let US humble ourselves and PRAY.

LOVE, RICOEL

**Thummim** · 11-02-2003, 09:28 AM

One nation under GD!

...Ricoel, its good to hear from you. Jeremiah's 31 chapter has context and purpose in it. It announces its own time.

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34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

---> this text above, obviously isn't Roman.

35 Thus saith YHWH, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith YHWH; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith YHWH.

38 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the city shall be built to YHWH from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto YHWH; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. Jer. 31: 34 - 40

---> The dead bodies {Israel} are now alive and have the blessing of YHWH perpetually.

...Notice that the seed of Israel is not cast off ever again. {vs. 37} Notice as well that the major part of Jerusalem is not cast down or overrun by gentiles as in the time of {jesus}, it will be holy {vs. 40} when the New Covenant takes effect. Until this time, there is no "New Covenant". The New Covenant goes with an Israel that is not cast down. Wouldn't that qualify as a perpetual blessing for the JEWish people? When the saviour of Israel comes, Israel is saved perpetually. That means that {jesus} isn't the saviour spoken of here at all. These words give us a completely different time than that which belongs to {jesus}. That also means that a king will take his throne now, rather than in the time of {jesus}. {his right arm is red}

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19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. {only one country}

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Eze. 37: 19 - 22

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...The above text tells us of what happens in the time of the New Covenant. The dead bodies have risen {Israel is reborn} and now Israel has only a single leader. {who is not jesus} Israel will never again be thrown down. That means that the book of "Revelations" is wrong in prophecing the slaughter of the JEWish people. It had to have already happened {in the time of Rome?}. That is the shame of all christians who prophecy a new destruction of the JEWish people following the Holocaust. The guilty condemn themselves in what they allow to be their faith.

...Context rises upon us like the light of the sun.

....Michael

**israelthebride** · 11-02-2003, 09:48 PM

MICHAEL,

I agree with a lot of the things you believe in,

you (a jew) keep pointing your finger at the christians
and
the christians keep pointing their finger at the jews.

Both of you and your "own" idea, of separation, is completely wrong.

The christians claim that they will be taken away "safe"
from the planned tribulation leaving others behind.
This is a lie from satan.

The jews claim that they are the only ones
that hold the COVENANTS of G-D.
This is a lie from satan.

The BELIEVERS of HIS TRUTH
are the HOLDERS of HIS COVENANTS.
These, and only these, are HIS PEOPLE.
____________

I shout HIS WORD!!!!!!!

EZEK 37
4...O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;
Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you,
and cover you with skin, and put breath in you,
and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

WE are HIS BODY.

___

The two "sticks", that are written on, in EZEKIEL are two BOOKS.

The two BOOKS are held in my hand every day.

I read HIS WORD everyday.
HIS WORD contains the GOOD NEWS of the TWO BECOMING ONE.
HE is our SAVIOUR.
___

17 And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying,
Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest
shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone,
and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations,
neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

____________

MICHAEL,

Put the two "sticks" (BOOKS) together
and YOU and I will be the beginning
of the TWO BECOMING ONE;
never to be two again.

Ask G-D to indwell (HIS SPIRIT) in YOU.
The same SPIRIT that dwelled in DAVID and the PROPHETS
and
SEE HIS TRUTH.

LOVE, RICOEL

**Thummim** · 11-03-2003, 07:33 PM

It began JEWish.

...Ricoel writes,

The christians claim that they will be taken away "safe"
from the planned tribulation leaving others behind.
This is a lie from satan.

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...We just had our own tribulation, and the christians did nothing to stop it. Believing in our new tribulation as christians prophecy, does nothing for my relationship with christians.

...Ricoel, the two sticks refered to, are prophecied as Judah tieing his colt, then it's offspring to the vine of Joseph. {Gen. 49: 11} Ezekiel follows this line of thinking in Eze. 37: 19, 22. This happens in a people called Judah who give birth to their brethren {Israel}. {read Isa. 48: 1, and answer this, from whose womb does Israel come?} It is not about two books becoming one book. It's about healing a breach that exists in the line of David and healing a hole {Israel} in the JEWish people.

...What {jesus} is, is what followed him. A faith of slaughter {salvation through bloodshed} yeilds only slaughter. Such salvation, the JEWish people do not need. It's all very simple to reason out. Does a man pick grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? {jesus} is thorns and thistles to us JEWs. Like a zebra cannot change its stripes, christianity cannot change its history. The JEWish people know what christianity is. We've already had our first tribulation at christian hands. People like you may keep us from a second tribulation simply by continuing to care about us.

...I do care about you Ricoel. I wish that you could discover that YHWH didn't curse the world, he only curses those who curse his Name. {the line of Isaac through Abraham} You can live in peace with him if you grant his people the same peace. Look upon the rainbow.

....Michael

**beseder** · 11-04-2003, 11:07 AM

your eyes

Hi Thummim,
Jews for Judaism have a totally different outlook/view on Jesus than what you have.
These are orthodox Jews- these do not believe that he was Messiah but they do not see this curse of a man that christians proclaim about as an idol.

Learn from these men, and you will see Jesus, you may still not see him as Mashiach- but respect him.

Everytime yuo say the such things of "look what follows after him" shows me that you do not have knowledge of talmudic writing nor of the Qumran. The impression you give me affects my perception. and this is DIRECT. Not second hand from someone interpreting the way you are to me.

You are as ignorant as christians are for believing in the Jesus that they believe in. Im not saying that you are a follower in christianity nor believe/walk in their "jesus", however you believe ignorantly in the same that they believe.
Do you not recognize that those with the power and gift to interpret BIBLE are in the hands of the Jews?
If you are truely a Jew, THEN interpret correctly and do not listen to the christians interpretation.
BE JEW in ALL OF YOUR SEARCHING. And many of us jews fall short when it comes to the "new testament", we look at it through christian eyes.
BAH HUMBUG!

**Thummim** · 11-04-2003, 01:21 PM

Sounding JEWish?

...Antonio, I have a christian background, though I have to look backwards nearly fourty years to recall it. Becoming a JEW {Judaism} involves unbecoming a christian. There is a certain amount of spiritual vomiting involved. I've had to convince myself that {jesus} is no messiah through the constant reading of the texts of the tanakh. I have no experiance with the Talmud. But I would bet that many negitive things are said about the faith of {jesus} in it. I do have a little more insight into what christians believe than do most JEWs. Does this make me less a JEW? To me, there needs to be a positive need for a messiah to fill, before he comes as messiah. A messiah should not be a curse to his people. How big of a curse can you swallow in choosing a messiah for the JEWish people? Can you read the blessing that is evident in most of the messianic texts, that belong to the JEWish people? It is very dificult to fit {jesus} into the blessing of these texts. How do you swallow the conflict? Having a choice to either believe that a messiah will bring a blessing to the JEWish people, or a curse, I have to embrace the blessing. Isn't your faith more christian than mine is? What is {jesus} to you? How would I not hear a christian talking as you explained your faith in him, to me?

...How do I believe as christians believe? I do not account my salvation as do christians. My view of a messiah is radically different from the person that {jesus} was. To me, {jesus} is mostly about gentiles killing JEWs. It is his deification that I opose.

....Michael

**beseder** · 11-05-2003, 11:20 AM

is it christian??

Hi Thummim,

those that believe in Menachem Mendel Schneirson are to be called "christian" or "Mezzies" (messianics) too then.
For they believe in a "christ"/"messiah" yet they are by no means labeled the such- they are labeled jewish.
So what makes Any orthodox Jew that believes in Messiah and has no connection with chr-stianity any less ORTHODOX?

For the Chbad Lubavitcher isnt any less Orthodox.

Whatabout those that believed in Bar-Kochba? are they any less Orthodox? NO, the people were led by Akiva- a Rabbi with a connection to the gentile world.

James the Just in the talmud is known as the leader of the pharisaic beit din...this is the same as James brother of Jesus.
SO YOU THUMMIM, explain away how this person is the leader of the pharisees though he be brother of Jesus? and this was no beit Min- it was indeed THE BEIT DIN that met in the Beit haMikdash.
BUT JEWS ARE RIGHT to say that the chr-stians believe in a false prophet. They say so correctly as far as the Jesus that the christians speak about.
They say that Jesus annulled Torah. definition one of a false prophet.
They say that Jesus is a g-d a person with three- this is idolotry- for Messiah recieved no divine worship as a man.
(one needs to understand kabbalah for this)

so indeed, this Jesus is a false prophet.
So what about the Jew that sees him in a different light?

Well, I'll still stay with the example i had before, Jews for Judaism say that Jesus did not annul the Torah and that He was a pharisee and held in High respect the Oral and written Torah- And I agree.

So not speak lashon hara nor write it about ANY JEW- and this includes Jesus- so be careful what you say

**Thummim** · 11-05-2003, 11:53 AM

Cause and effect?

...Anthony, it is all cause and effect. The cause is christianities own to name. But what is the effect upon the JEWish people? Is it all grapes of thorns and figs of thistles? I plead, "cause and effect". The JEWish people know the effect of christianity upon their own lives. YHWH is my witness!

....Michael

**beseder** · 11-05-2003, 03:53 PM

agree

I agree with you on Christianity- However I dont agree with you placing the blame on the prophet that these "followers" malign.
This prophet has true followers that do not stand with these christians or christianity and have been silenced by all

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