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  • Thummim
    replied
    A good neighbor who believes in the damnation of most JEWs?

    ...Robin, I am not angry with you at all. Kind hearted people {like you} have this habit of casting off anything that comes from christianity and saying that the rest {that is left of the christians} is what true christians are. But to JEWs, christians are what they have done to us. Of all the faiths in this world, no other faith has cut so deep into the JEWish people. When you say "JEW", do you separate us into groups of those exceptable to christians, and those who are unexceptable? Which part of "us" are righteous to "christians"? Is it just the JEWish people who except the christian way of reading JEWish texts? What about JEWs who reject {jesus} as their messiah? When the authors of the NT write such verses of text as these, who are they damning?

    12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat. 8: 12

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    25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mat. 27: 25

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    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mk. 16: 16

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    27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Lk. 19: 27

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    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Jn. 15: 6

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    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any manpreach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Gal: 1: 8, 9

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    ...Are these verses of text santified in the NT? What do they say about most JEWs? Where the JEWish people who died in the holocaust, included in the sentiment of these texts? What about the pograms? What about the inquisition, when JEWs were made to convert to christianity or die? I accuse christianity for what it really is and what it teaches. What consequence upon the JEWish people would such texts have, if they were believed by most christians? Are those who except these texts, "christians" to you?

    ...Consequence is what rules our world. There are consequences to get through. It will be easier for christians to get through the consequences of these texts, than for JEWs to pass through the consequences of the "believers" who except these very texts. When I ask what "blessing" {jesus} has brought the JEWish people as {our messiah?} Are the above words really the words of a man who intercedes for the JEWish people? {see Isa. 53: 12}

    ...Do you see why I call christianity the faith of Rome? Believing that innocent blood atones for sin, is Roman. In the JEWish faith, shed innocent blood only makes those covered with such blood, guilty of that same blood. Paul misteaches his students when he says the following,

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    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb. 9: 22

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    ...This teaching is a cornerstone of christianity. But it is false teaching. Almost no sin is covered through the shedding of blood. No sins that are willful are covered by blood in the law of Moses.

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    30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 30, 31

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    ...The above says that the lawbreakers have no atonement for their sins. Willful sins are not covered by the sacrifices and offerings of the priesthood. To forgive the communal sins of the JEWish people, there is a sacrifice {kaphar}, but it doesnt belong to the people at all. It is for keeping YHWH holy. Any kaphar'im like these, belong only to YHWH. But christianity has created something that doesn't exist in the law, and created it {a kaphar} to cover their own sins, rather than using it to keep YHWH holy. To christianity, the JEWs who observe the law as written, are guilty of damnation. {if you believe the NT} What you need to understand is that {jesus} didn't go to the cross alone. He took millions of JEWs with him. Why are the people that surround the oppression of the JEWish people, mostly christians?

    --> Holocaust = christians; Pograms = christians; inquistion = christians; various expultions = christians, and so it goes. Now if you discover that this {JEWish} peoples Name is what the letters, YHWH are taken from excepting for the fourth letter, what would it tell you about the faith of Rome? It doesn't suggest that christianity is "GD" honored, given his Name. The salvation of christians is not what is prophecied in the tanakh. It is a blessing for the JEWish people that is prophecied. Does christianity serve this blessing? {in the NT it is written as the words of {jesus}, "that which you do to these of my people, you do to me"}. What has the faith of christianity done to the JEWish people? What has it done to the Name of YaHudaH?

    ...I accuse a faith, and not people. The faith of Rome is what it has done to the Name of YaHudaH, the Name of the JEWish people. It seems that the grapes of christianity have thorns. It seems that the figs of christianity have thistles. So why do most JEWs refuse christianity? I think it is because christianity still believes in the damnation of most JEWs with the permission of the book {the NT} that discribes the faith of Rome.

    ...Redemption also has its fruits. Christianity seems to give the JEWish people so little of this redemption that you believe in. The fruits of this christian redemption are not something for JEWs to pull towards themselves. If done so, we would end up covered with thorns and thistles. So how has your faith blessed the JEWish people?

    ...Robin, remember the parable of the good neighbor who took to the inn a man that he found along the road, and told the innkeeper to take good care of him at his own expense? Has christianity done this for the JEWish people in any way? Christians, christians everywhere, but only the fewest good neighbors are found among them when a JEW needs their help. This is how christianity was tested. The inquistion, being expelled from the lands that we occupied for generations, pograms and the holocaust. How few "good" christians there were at such times. But Robin, I am not angry with you at all. I trust that you may be a good christian and a good neighbor. Since the shedding of the blood of millions of JEWs, we seem now exceptable to christians. But it wasn't always so.

    ...Again Robin, I am not angry with you. I am just conveying my observations about the faith of christianity and its history.

    ....Michael

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  • Robin
    replied
    Passover Lamb redeems subjects for His Kingdom

    Dear Michael,

    Oh dear. You seem somehow angry and I do hope you are not angry with me. I will have to admit to some ignorance as to many of the things you spoke of. I fail to see how it is the fault of Jesus that innocent Jewish blood was shed. To which massacre do you refer? The history books are full of accounts of massacre at the hands of those who took the name of Christ but are not His subjects. Our Messiah gave us a ministerial commission, not a magisterial one. Those who would conquer by a carnal sword do not have His authority to do so and have taken His name in vain. The Church was sent to bless the world, not conquer it, to serve the world, not have the world serve the Church. It was to minister just as Christ had done and not to be ministered unto. It was to be a leaven of good in a world of evil. Salt and light to the kingdoms of this world. The Church has something to give the world, something spiritual out of its own inheritance. The Church is planted within the world without displacing any earthly kingdom. But tragically, many fail to understand this commission. All the weapons of the Church are spiritual. This is why the church should not have accepted the kingdom given by the Roman emperor in the fourth century which he had obtained with a bloody carnal sword. They misunderstood the nature of the kingdom as many continue to do today and this is a gravely serious error. Israel was in the Kingdom of David but now the Kingdom of David is in Israel. In the old covenant, Israel had been in the kingdom; now in the new covenant the kingdom is in Israel. A spiritual kingdom in heavenly places with spiritual blessings. Joshua conquered and removed other kingdoms in order to establish the Kingdom of God but Jesus brought in His kingdom without removing the Romans from the land. It grieves my spirit and the Holy Spirit as well that there are those who use His name without His authority. When we fail to focus on the work of the Holy Spirit of God in us and through us, God has no hope of glory. This is sin. He has planted a vineyard and we are failing to give Him the increase of it.
    And this is the answer to why the redeemed need redemption. The first passover lambs redeemed subjects for the Kingdom of God on earth. The Messiah died as a Passover Lamb to redeem subjects for His Kingdom. It is the ministerial commission of those He has called out of the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Light and Love to be a priestly nation to show forth His praises. And of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end.

    Love,
    Robin

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  • Thummim
    replied
    The faith of the sacrificial lamb in Roman hands.

    ...Robin, the JEWish people were redeemed before {jesus} lived.

    23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. Isa. 44: 23

    ...There is no accusation of the JEWish people that follows their redemption that is given in the time of Cyrus. But Judah left Babylon without something very dear to him. They left without any knowledge of their GD's Name. {possibly excepting a few prophets?} Does {jesus} redeem the redeemed? Are the sins of the righteous forgiven them? What did {jesus} do to bless the JEWish people in the last 2000 years? Slaughter is the faith of Rome. It works like this.

    ...A vip who represents the will of Rome, is sent to govern the conquered JEWish people. A JEWish man unknown to anyone, kills this Roman vip when consequence allows him to vent his rage without being caught. He disappears into the body of his people. The Romans are very dismayed at this event. Their authority cannot go unchallenged. They post a decree that 10 JEWs a day {all being innocent} will be slaughtered each and every day until the guilty party is handed over. The slaughter begins and continues for several weeks. There is no just solution that presents itself. The guilty party is unknown and unwilling to turn himself in, knowing what the Roman authorities would do to him. So the righteous gather together and draw straws to present a sacrificial lamb to the Romans. The unfortunate party is handed over to be slaughtered. He dies in the place of the guilty party, and the killing stops. The Romans are now satisfied that their justice has been demonstrated to the JEWish people. Did the Romans know that the man that they executed was innocent? You bet! But they killed him anyway. Yes, the Roman official asks this innocent man, "why must you die?", feeling his guilt at what he is about to do. But the sacrificial lamb says nothing to him, to comfort his accuser. He knows that his judge understands what is going on. This is the faith of Rome. It involves the shedding of innocent blood. But to the JEWish people, "whose blood is being shed" justice is very different. Innocent blood only condemns the person guilty of it. It hasn't anything to do with the sins of the people being forgiven, but instead points a finger to the guilty party. One cannot die in the guilty parties place to appease GD. Death is the penalty for the sin of the guilty {who are not forgiven}. Life is the blessing that is given to the righteous. So is there any wrong doing to be charged against the man who gave his life to stop the killing of the innocent? I doubt it, unless by doing so, more people die because of him, than he saves of them. That is what {jesus} brings upon the JEWish people. He doesn't free the JEWish people from death at all, but many JEWs die because his followers believe that it is a sin of the JEWish people, that he dies in JEWish hands. And millions of JEWs die because of his chosen sacrifice.

    ...This {christian} faith is defiled by the shedding of innocent JEWish blood, and there is no atonement that can be made for it. Asking the JEWish people to forgive this assault against their name would be unreasonable. One cannot forgive themself of their own guilt. They need the forgiveness of the party that they have offended. Why should {jesus} be allowed to forgive his own sin? If he caused the abomination that follows christianity, either he or christianity must die. Who will die? Who is guilty of this innocent blood? Do you see the predicament that he is in? He cannot forgive the slaughter of millions of JEWs who died because of their own name {JEW}. Their Name is GD! The Name of YHWH is taken from their own Name. All sin offerings are by fire. Think about it. The guilty party will not hand themselves over to GD's wrath, so an innocent man now has to pay their debt. Isn't that what {jesus} is for? The pascal lamb finishes in the fire.

    ....Michael

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  • Robin
    replied
    passover/atonement/consecration/forgiveness/

    Dear Michael,

    You are speaking of atonement and consecration and forgiveness. I was speaking of redemption.
    However, your reply teaches me much and we are in agreement about many things, especially about the repentant and contrite heart. I am learning much from you about my faith and each of your responses answers many of the questions I have about the finished work of my High Priest and makes His work more real to me. "A holy substance must touch the inside of this consecrated place, to make it holy. A priest, himself consecrated, enters this separated space and touches it with the holy." I have experienced the reality of this, Michael. And I also agree with you about forgiveness being possible without blood. I see examples of it in the scriptures. My faith is in much more than forgiveness of sins. It includes redemption, covenant, consecration, priesthood, a sanctuary, atonement.
    I am trying to understand why you see the death of Jesus as slaughter. A willing offering , maybe? I don't see my own death as slaughter, but rather a willing offering. And life on this side of Jordan is every bit as good as the report given by Joshua and Caleb. I highly recommend this life after death.

    Love,
    Robin

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  • Thummim
    replied
    Mankind doesn't own the Kaphar'im.

    ...Robin,

    ...8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the "blood of the covenant", which YHWH hath made with you concerning all these words. Ex. 24: 8

    ...This is one use of blood. It reafirms the covenant that Abraham entered with YHWH, for this people that pass through the line of Isaac.

    ...The other is seen in drawing lines between the holy and the profane. To consecrate a holy place, blood is put upon four corners of the place that is to be consecrated. This being so, the piece of land still is not holy. A holy substance must touch the inside of this consecrated place, to make it holy. A priest, himself consecrated, enters this separated space and touches it with the holy.

    ...Blood itself does not make oneself holy. When the blood is used to consecrate Israel to their Eloheem, the communal but not willful sins of the people are separated from them. The people's willful sins remain until forgiven by their Eloheem. They cannot be atoned for. No kaphar {sacrificial animal} exists for mans own benifit. All kaphar'im belong to GD's holiness. Early christians thought that the kaphar'im belonged to them. They also had no knowledge of GD's Name and how it worked into the running of the priesthood. This is why no offering that the priests made was exceptable to YHWH. GD is not served with slaughter! The man{jesus} is still slaughter. This faith {of X - tianity} comes from a false idea that a mans willful sins can be atoned for. But as I've said, there is no offering for a mans willful sins. Again, all Kaphar'im belong to GD's holiness. Mans way out of his sins is through a repentent and contrite heart that will bring GD's forgiveness to them. Forgivness of sin requires no bloodshed. Even Moses and Aaron had no kaphar'im to atone for their sins.

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    30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously {willfully}, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 30, 31

    ...In Jeremiah 31: 30, 34, it can be seen that a people can have their communal sins forgiven them, and still be accountable for their own willful sins. A mans accountability for his own sins, does not speak anything of a kaphar like {jesus}, for all of mans sins. The New Covenant involves all men being accountable for their own sins.


    ....Michael

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  • Robin
    replied
    Passover lamb connected to forgiveness of sins?

    Dear Michael,

    You are correct when you say that the Passover Lamb was not in any way connected with the forgiveness of sins. The Israelites were not in Egypt because of their own sins. They were in Egypt because they were born there. It was an inherited state, if you will, this state of being "in Egypt". God did not do anything to deal with the sins of this people until after he had brought them out of Egypt and wanted to bring them into covenant with Him. He had been the God of their fathers and was now going to be their God. A called out people, a priestly nation to show forth His praises. It is now that sins will matter, because they will be in covenant with Him and it is important that His name not be blasphemed among the Gentiles. After the giving of the Law of Moses, there were still sins for which there was no forgiveness: penal sins that carried a death penalty. Knowing human nature, it seems safe to assume that many kept these laws through fear of death and not out of any love for God or faith in Him. This is why He told them many times that He abhorred their sacrifices and offerings. (In the new covenant, death is abolished and the law is written on hearts. With the fear of death removed, God can have what He has always desired, true love and faith.) It is unfortunate that the Old Testament knowledge of most Christians is lacking to the extent that they don't understand that atonement and redemption are not the same. It is clear from the Old Testament that they are not. They don't understand the difference in shedding and sprinkling. Redemption blood of the passover lamb was applied by the father/patriarch. Atonement blood was placed on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant by the High Priest. Redemption blood was not related to sins. It was related to the "inherited state" of being in Egypt. And Michael, in reference to "innocent blood", of what were those passover lambs guilty? Of being lambs?
    So yes, Michael, you are right. Most Christians do not have a deep enough understanding to convince someone like you that our Father is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or that Jesus was the Passover Lamb that brought us out of our inherited state of death and that His blood that He Himself as our High Priest has sprinkled on our hearts is the blood of atonement. But whether or not they understand it and can explain it, they are nevertheless redeemed and the atonement is a reality.

    Love,
    Robin
    Last edited by Robin; 10-11-2003, 08:08 PM.

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  • Thummim
    replied
    If it is a curse for a curse, what is christianity owed?

    ...Matt, a different generation it was that left Babylon then that left Egypt. These who left Babylon were totally forgiven of their transgressions. {Isa. 43: 25, 44: 22, 23} They were given a GD that would never get angry with them again. {Isa. 54: 9} They were given a perpetual blessing from their GD. {Hag. 2: 18, 19} And no one hates these facts more than christians who insist upon owning the salvation of all people through the name of {jesus}. YHWH is allowed to forgive his people without help. They are allowed to be righteous by the will of their own GD. But for a forgotten Name, that robbed their Eloheem of the strength to deliver them, their enemies would have been {!#%$&*!!!} Where is this people charged with a transgression by their Eloheem since they were led out of Babylon? Watch your dates. While the enemy does come, it is not by YHWH's will. Eventually these enemies will perish. It would be quicker to GD's wrath if he had the sword of his Name to fight with. I know that this is the right time for YHWH to defend his people. I know that the Name of YHWH is now here.

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    15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

    16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; {his Name by which he defends his people?} and I have created the waster to destroy.

    17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHWH.

    ....Michael

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  • MadeByFire
    replied
    The picture painted by the blood of the lamb is like this:

    We are all slaves to sin. There is no way anyone can live their whole life without sinning. The blood of the Lamb has freed us from that bondage. Paul says in Romans 8, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua, because through Messiah Yeshua the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

    Just like Israel was freed from the bondage of slavery in Egypt, so are we.

    For what reasons did Yeshua rebuke the Jewish people?

    Has He not delivered the Jewish people, or have some simply not received what has been offered to them? Just like those who were released from Egypt, but didn't believe in YHWH's promise that they would make it to the promised land, and died in the desert for that very reason, so it is with those who do not believe in the promised Messiah.
    Hebrews 3:7-4:11
    7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    8do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the desert,
    9where your fathers tested and tried me
    and for forty years saw what I did.
    10That is why I was angry with that generation,
    and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.'
    11So I declared on oath in my anger,
    'They shall never enter my rest.' "
    12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion."
    16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
    1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
    "So I declared on oath in my anger,
    'They shall never enter my rest.' " 4And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
    6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.


    blessings,
    matt

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  • Thummim
    replied
    The bad shepherd abandons YHWH's flock! The good shepherd makes them righteous.

    ...Matt, I'm not sure what you are getting at. The blood of the pascel lamb only covers those in Covenant with YHWH. These do not leave Egypt forgiven of their sins. They leave as they are at the time. Most of the older ones, perish in the desert. Did YHWH ever say that this people's sins would be blotted out with the use of the blood over all doors and windows? It was only the wrath of YHWH that was turned back by it. Note that whenever Pharaoh decided to obey YHWH, he saw GD's anger end, and his plague's end as well. His hardened heart was his downfall. But obediance was always an escape for him. As soon as he showed reverance for the Name of YHWH, his plagues ended. The people of Israel are asked to remember that their own deliverance was brought to them by their own GD's hand. You present a pascel lamb without purpose, who does not deliver from Rome. He really has little to give the JEWish people at all. He visits the JEWish people, and they die. Some deliverer? When messiah comes, the throne of David will be occupied by him. It will not be empty. All rebuke of the JEWish people is to end. But {jesus} himself rebukes this people himself. He never says that they are a righteous people. {the work of a messiah} His purpose is to intercede for this people and make them righteous. He is not allowed to fail here.

    ...Why are the sin offerings all required with the eating of the pascel lamb? Doesn't this suggest that a pascel lamb cannot remiss any sin? Read Nu. 28: 16 - 25

    ....Michael

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  • MadeByFire
    replied
    Kill it in the evening

    Exodus 12:6
    Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight ("between two evenings").
    It was not the spotless life of the lamb that brought deliverance, but its death. The perfect, sinless and spotless life of the Lamb of G-d, Yeshua, only condemns us sinners. It is His death that brings our salvation.

    Yeshua was killed "between two evenings". He was slain the fourteenth day of the first month... The hours of the crucifixion: 9am to 3pm- "between two evenings".

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  • Thummim
    replied
    Gen. 38 hides a Heir for Davids throne.

    besedar, {Antonio}

    ...The heir cannot be a Canaanite because the Name that he inherits is YaHudaH. He then has to be a JEW.

    9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

    ...Judah knows this too. He knows that this seed is not his.

    20 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god;

    21 Shall not God search this out
    ? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

    22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

    23 Awake, why sleepest thou, our Adonai? arise, cast us not off for ever. Ps. 44: 20 - 23

    ...Knowing what "tome" {complete} means in its plural {it completes} will tell you that this is the trap that all JEWs have fallen into. {L.RD, G.D, YHW.H} Who would dare complete GD's Name?

    63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

    ...YaHudaH left Babylon without something that is very important to them. Their, and their Eloheem's Name. The rite of this Name is what Gen. 38 is all about.

    --> A canaanite mother is involved. But I do not teach about this yet. Just about the heir that he gives to the JEWish people. A child is given to all JEWs {whose right arm is red}, as heir to Davids throne. The child has JEWish parents.

    The scepter will not depart from Judah, , nor the rulers staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs. Gen. 49: 10

    ...That is how a heir who sits upon the throne of David, happens to be called god and everlasting father. Father is what Perez is to Judah's seed unless the Name of YHWH is forgotten by the JEWish people. Because neither Perez or Zerah has a Canannite mother, another heir must come well after these. But his Name is YaHudaH. Judah's seed belongs to him. The story of Jacob and Esau is the same story told in Gen. 38 where a birthrite changes hands. One cannot be a Canaanite if his Name is YaHudaH.


    21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto YHWH of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and {not until} in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of YHWH of hosts.

    ...When he takes his place in the line of Judah, all JEWs will bear the Name of YHWH. The Name that makes the JEWish people righteous is his. It is the Name of GD {YHWH} that is our righteousness.

    ....Michael

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  • beseder
    replied
    No CANAANITES allowed

    Hi THUMMIM,
    there are to be no canaanites allowed in thouse of Hashem.
    By no means!
    Even a latter prophet shows this of Judah's SIN against HaShem by taking the canaanite woman and no wonder his sons died.
    There is only one son left.
    and does he actually bare the name?
    he is put aside just like our brothers the samronim were.

    Malchitzedek is said to be Shem son of Noah.
    How he got there? who knows-

    from the book of Jasher capter 16


    11. And Adonizedek king of Jerusalem, the same was Shem, went out with his men to meet Abram and his people, with bread and wine, and they remained together in the valley of Melech.
    12. And Adonizedek blessed Abram, and Abram gave him a tenth from all that he had brought from the spoil of his enemies, for Adonizedek was a priest before God.
    this here is a reading from the targums:

    XIV. And it was in the days of Amraphel,--he is Nimrod, who commanded Abram to be cast into the furnace; he was then king of Pontos; Ariok, (so called) because he was (arik) tall among the giants, king of Thalasar, Kedarlaomer, (so called) because he had bound himself (or gone over) among the bondmen of the king of Elam, and Thidal, crafty as a fox, king of the peoples subjected to him, --made war with Bera, whose deeds were evil, king of Sedom, and with Birsha, whose deeds were with the wicked, king of Amora: Shinab, who had hated his father, king of Admah, and Shemebar, who had corrupted himself with fornication, king of Zeboim; and the king of the city which consumed (Bela) the dwellers thereof, which is Zoar. All these were joined in the vale of the gardens (paredesaia), the place that produced the streamlets of waters that empty themselves into the sea of salt. Twelve years they had served Kedarlaomer; and in the thirteenth year they had rebelled. And in the fourteenth year came Kedarlaomer and the kings who were with him, and smote the Giants (gibboraia) which were in Ashtaroth-Karniam, and the Strong who were in Hametha, and the Terrible who were in the plain of Kiriathaim, and the Choraee (dwellers in caverns) who were in the high mountains of Begala, unto the valley of Pharan, which was nigh upon the edge of the desert. [JERUSALEM. 3. All these were joined in the valley of the gardens. 5. And they slew the giants who were in Ashtaroth-Karnaim, the famed who were among them, and the formidable who inhabited the city which they had built, and the cavern people who dwelt in the mountain of Gebala, unto the valley of vision which is nigh upon the desert.]

    And they returned, and came to the place where was rendered the judgment of Mosheh the prophet, to the fountain of the waters of Strife, which is Requam. And they smote all the fields of the Amalkaee, and also the Emoraee, who dwelt in En-gedi. And the king of Sedom, and the king of Amorah, and the kind of Admah, and the king of Zeboim, and the king of the city which consumed its inhabitants, which is Zoar, went forth, and set the array of battle against them in the valley of the gardens; with Kedarlaomer king of Elam, and Thidal king of the nations obedient to him, and Amraphel king of Pontos, and Ariok king of Thelasar; four kings arrayed in battle against five. [JERUSALEM. And Amraphel king of Pontos, and Ariok king of Elasar: four kings against five spread out the array of war.] And the valley of the gardens had many pits filled with bitumen: [JERUSALEM. The valley of the gardens was full of pits of bitumen:] and the kings of Sedom and Amora fled away, and fell there; and they who were left fled to the mountains. And they took all the property of Sedom and Amora, and all their food, and went. And they made captive Lot the son of Abram's brother, and his property, and went. And he had dwelt in Sedom.

    And Og came, who had been spared from the giants that died in the deluge, and had ridden protected upon the top of the ark, and sustained with food by Noah; not being spared through high righteousness, but that the inhabitants of the world might see the power of the Lord, and say, Were there not giants who in the first times rebelled against the Lord of the world, and perished from the earth? But when these kings made war, behold, Og, who was with them, said in his heart, I will go and show Abram concerning Lot, who is led captive, that he may come and deliver him from the hands of the kings into whose hands he has been delivered. And he arose and came, upon the eve of the day of the Pascha, and found him making the unleavened cakes. Then showed he to Abram the Hebrew, who dwelt in the valleys of Mamre Amoraah, brother of Eshkol and brother of Aner, who were men of covenant with Abram. And when Abram heard that his brother was made captive, he armed his young men who were trained for war, grown up in his house; but they willed not to go with him. And he chose from them Eliezer the son of Nimrod, who was equal in strength to all the three hundred and eighteen; and he pursued unto Dan. [JERUSALEM. Domestics (marbitsi, down-liers) of his house, eighteen and three hundred, and pursued after them unto Dan of Kisarion.] And he divided them at night in the way; a part were to engage with the kings, and a part were hidden to smite the firstborn of Egypt. And he arose, he and his servants, and smote them, and pursued them which remained of them unto (the place) of the memorial of sin which was to be in Dan, from the north of Darmesek. [JERUSALEM. And he pursued them unto Havetha, which is from the north of Darmesek.] And he brought back all the substance, and also Lot his brother and his substance he brought back, and also the women and the people. And the king of Sedom came forth, after that he returned from destroying Kedarlaomer and the kings who were with him, to meet him at the plain of Mephana, which was the king's race-course. [JERUSALEM. And the kings who were with him, at the plain of vision which was the house of the king's plain.]

    And Malka Zadika, who was Shem bar Noah, the king of Yerushalem, came forth to meet Abram, and brought forth to him bread and wine; and in that time he ministered before Eloha Ilaha. [JERUSALEM. And Malki Zedek, king of Yerushalem, who was Shem, who was the great priest of the Most High.] And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the Lord God Most High, who for the righteous possesseth the heavens and the earth. And blessed be Eloha Ilaha, who hath made thine enemies as a shield which receiveth a blow. And he gave to him one of ten, of all which he brought back.

    And the king of Sedom said to Aram, Give me the souls of the men of my people whom thou hast brought back, and the substance take to thyself. [JERUSALEM. And the treasure take to thee.] And Abram siad to the king of Sedom, I have uplifted my hands in an oath before the Lord God the Most High, who for the just possesseth his possession of the heavens and the earth, if from a thread to the latchet of a sandal I receive any thing of all that is thine; lest thou magnify thyself in saying, I have enriched Abram from mine own. Have I not power over all the spoil? & emdash;Apart from what the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men who went with me, Aner, Eshkol, and Mamre, they also receiving their portion. [JERUSALEM. If from a thread to the latchet of a sandal I receive of all that is thing: that thou magnify not thyself and say, I have enriched Abram.]

    NAME AUTHORITY(shem) IS NO DOUBT a gentile, and he was LIVING in CANAAN, but he was no canaanite.
    And neither is the TRUE MESSIAH- but both are indeed KIng of peace

    shalom u'bracha

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  • Thummim
    replied
    What the orthodox believe is found in Ex. 34: 7

    7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    ...and he to whom the seed of YaHudaH belongs, by his Name that makes him the father of all JEWs, makes all of his children to be JEWs.

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    ...I do not consider myself orthodox. But I aim to cover all of the Name of YaHudaH, with the Name of YHWH. {to redeem the Name of the JEWish people} Conflict exists everywhere no matter which branch of Judiasm one claims as his own. Believing in {one Name in YHWH = "YaHudaH"} as Zech. 14: 9 suggests, so that all Israel becomes a nation of priests, sets me upon virgin ground. My Eloheem exists in Name. He believes in Mishpacha. He is father, mother, and husband to his people through this Name. But there is one who "owns" this Name as well. YaHudaH knows as Onan does, that his seed will not be his to claim when it is given to Tamar. {Gen. 38: 9} --> aren't the JEWish people the product of the body and seed of the worlds people as well as that of Judah? A JEW by the rite of Name, whose mother is a Canaanite, owns the Name that makes him both heir to the throne of Judah and priest to GD's Name. {note that neither Perez or Zerah have a Canaanite mother. Dark clouds will surround him, though I question who will see them. Is Shekina for all to see? YHWH marks him with a red arm. I easily imagine that even his palms bear claim to the Name of YaHudaH. But that will have to be a matter of faith to most. A heir will be born in Israel of JEWish parents whose right arm is red. He will set upon the throne of David as one who has authority over both JEWs and gentiles.

    6 --> For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: {having a red arm} and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    --> This "child" is given to the JEWish people {as a child} to sit upon David's throne. The last thing that Zechariah writes in his contribution to our understanding of this child, is that there is no longer to be a Canaanite in the House of YHWH. How does a Canaanite get into the house of YHWH? {Zech. 14: 21}

    7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YHWH of hosts will perform this

    ...If his Name is "YaHudaH" by rite, and he is father to all of Judah's seed, then his Name will cover all JEWs as well. The father gives his children his own Name.


    ....Michael

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  • beseder
    replied
    an apology for Spying

    Hi Thummim,
    One thing i can say is this,
    Spying does know more than i.
    He may not know exactly what I know- but he, as my zakheyn- as I grow , He grows.
    Me and Him are ONE.
    and whatever our disagreements we are MADE one through our wrestling.
    However, there is truth is what I give you- and Spying does recognize what I recognize And he does infact recognize THE NAME.
    and He does recognize the Jews.

    Its funny,
    I dont know if you are orthodox or not
    But here is an Orthodox Jewish concept to you,
    "If you are not Orthodox, you are not a jew"

    in other words re-eterating what is commanded in Torah by dvar HaShem.
    "one who trangesses willfully against me with an up-raised fist, will be cut off from the people (is no longer Israeli/Jew)."

    Unless, of course this person does repent-if he ever does that is.

    So, why do you not fight the Orthodox aswell, for their concept of being jew is the same as Messiah's concept.

    shalom u'bracha

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  • beseder
    replied
    At the cross Messiah said to Hashem
    "abba forgive them- they do not know what they do"
    Unintentional sins- Correct Thummim?

    I know that you look at the bible(new testament portion) through the eyes of a jew that has only sees what "christianity" teaches.

    I say, Look through the New test through the eyes of Orthodoxy in Jewishness and you will see an awesome man- A blessing.

    Messiah was not for the land??
    Remember when the scribes and leaders were asking Him "should we give to ceasar?"
    YHshWH said
    This coin is ceasars for it has his emblem/mark- so give to caesar what is of caesar- But what is [of] HaShem give to HaShem"

    Thummim, you yourself KNOW EXACTLY what is in HaShems Possession- and when you read this- YOU CANT SEE IT?

    THE LAND is Hashem's- the temple was Hashems- and the people.
    However, something MUST HAVE HAPPENED FOR HASHEM TO LEAVE IT.

    Some say it was actually the death of Ya'acov- ach YHshWH that caused the destruction of the temple- since he was dealt with in an unworthy manner without cause- And some say that it was the death of YHshWH himself that caused the destruction of the beit haMikdash.
    Either way- One was the messiah and the other was brother and follower and nasi of the belief in Messiah- and Ya'acov was indeed needed in that time as a leader even to those that didnt believe- for the people hung on his every word- he was the tzaddik .

    Something HAD TO HAPPEN so that this 'curse' would be on the people.
    And i believe that curse was the pharisees
    the builders of the wall- who earned the wrath of Hashem.

    and i quote the above from other jewish sects from that time that did not agree with what the p'rushim were doing- they were building "the wall".

    shalom u'bracha

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