Gentiles and Paulos

[beseder]

Hi everyone,

Many people have said that Paul taught contrary to Torah.
Some who believe in Mashiach say that Paulos taught contrary to Mashiach as well.

I believe he did not.
However, i always had a question about circumcision.
I knew that the assembly(ekkleysia=church) of Jerusalem allowed that the gentiles not be circumcised of flesh.
However, that would still be going against Torah.

Then I concluded, how even Avraham himself was circumcised of heart first and THEN circumcised in flesh, that the gentile is the same.
And that the gentile is not required to be circumcised first to be saved as some of Pauls contemporary rivals taught.
However that Paulos taught that the gentile is saved first and that EVERYTHING else comes after.

Is this true or not?
If it is, somebody help me out with the fullness of scripture because i can only see it hinted in scripture so far.

shalom

[beseder]

any help at all?

[Spying]

Establishing The Torah!

Hi BeSeder,

Please forgive my neglect for the past week or so! Holy Day responsibilities and the cares of this world combined to take my time.

Paul does not teach against the Torah! Indeed, someday your people, the Jews, will be able to recognize Paul for what he truly is: Paul is the greatest defender of the Torah, outside of Messiah Yahushua, amongst the Seed of Abraham (Romans 3:31).

There do exist some Jews right now who claim to know what Paul teaches. I am also aware that some teach, and there are also Gentiles who would teach in the same manner, that the physically uncircumcised must be circumcised after they are saved to continue along the path of salvation. This is not the teaching of Paul. It is a corruption of the Gospel of Messiah to teach that the physically uncircumcised must indeed be circumcised after they come to a knowledge of the truth.

Such teaching is also against the ruling of the supreme court of believers (Acts 15)! Judgments of the Sanhedrin stand until another court is qualified to reverse their decision. Whenever such a court should again be established, I, YAH willing, will fully test the power of that court should they attempt to rule that Gentiles must be circumcised after they are saved!

So, how does Paul establish the Torah and at the same time fight successfully against the Judaizers who would compel Gentiles like myself to be circumcised? Does being saved compel me to now be circumcised? What in all the world does it mean to be saved? (Acts 2:21, Acts 2:40, Acts 2:47, Acts 4:12, Acts 15:11, 1 Corinthians 1:18, Ephesians 2:5, 8, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5-7, etc.)

Sincerely, Spying

[beseder]

hmmm, so please clarify

OK, Messiah now lives in the gentile, and Messiah IS TORAH where the Torah according to genesis, one is to be circumcised as Avraham and his seed -any person that is to dwell under his tent.

so how does messiah do this in the gentile believer?
you might say in the heart, however, how does this nt go against Torah.
The Church of Yisrael (Assembly/K'hillah) which is the body of Messiah [Israel the bride] and strangers which are gentiles that come inside and wish to dwell with Israel and her GD is basically the same church in the new covenant, now the Torah is put in the peoples hearts by GD himself instead of relying on the empty promise of humans.
How is the Torah fully active in the believer of any kind if it isnt Fully exerting itself. Of course thats my understanding so far.
Please clear it up if you are able.

I see romans 4 as sayng that circumcision is the seal of the faith of Avraham
as we know that immersion is a sign for the faith in Messiah which is the faith of Avraham.

And I do know that CIRCUMCISION IS NOT needed for salvation- However, i do know that "if you love me, you will obey my commands"
So the gentile himself would give himself to circumcision when he comes across the word which is Messiah brought down from Sinai.

Its hard for me in this situation now- because i at the moment cannot see how Paul would defend Torah while saying the strangers do not need it- isnt there only ONE law for all asit was spoken in Torah, and there shall be no difference between the stranger and the citizen Israeli?

shalom and thanks

[MadeByFire]

Beseder, pardon me for interrupting...

I was wondering about you: what is your religious background? Are you Jewish? Do you believe in Messiah Yeshua? If so, for how long, and how did you come to your decision? How did you find this message forum?

I myself found this forum from our dear friend Thummim when talking to him over at Tzaddikim.org, which I found out about from our other dear friend, Scarlet.

"Religiously", I would fall under the category of traditional Christianity. I wasn't raised in a "Christian" home, but thanks to a friend I had during teen years, and thanks to my daughter, I have a deep faith in Yeshua and in His Word. I have a great desire to share what I've learned with people of "other faiths". I don't necessarily say that everything I believe is absolute truth, but I do believe that there IS one absolute truth. If we can all come together, maybe we can find what that truth is.

I don't know you. I've never met you. I've never spoken your name out loud. But I love you.

blessings to you,
sincerely,
matt

[beseder]

how long

I have made a decision for messiah a while ago.
in 1997
14 i was
and now 20 going on 21

i have been on this forum as long as AntotiYah (my former s/n) has been here.
im thinking close to 2 yrs, i may be wrong- it may be 3 yrs, im not sure.

I am Jew.
Not reared in christianity nor judaism- just secular. My parents are converso's
as in during the inquisition they had to convert to cotholocism and its been wishy washy since then.

So its just a secular home
walked in traditioal pseudo christianity for a while, finally begun to break out of it immediately before i popped onto these forums introduced to me by DeAnna.
the first topic i can remember was speaking on angels and the sort.
I realized the judaism of new testament in constant search of truth being helped by our brother Spying.
Walked more harder in orthodoxy learning from Chabad since then and see how the new testament ties in perfectly with charradat (orthodoxy)
so this is my stance.
shalom u'bracha

[israelthebride]

I AM ISRAEL

I would like to speak of what I have learned.

This "world" says that anyone that is not a jew is a gentile.

I believe this to be a lie.

According to YH'SHWH'S WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation), a gentile is an unbeliever.
_______

I believe that the "CALLED OUT ONE"
who submits to YH'SHWH'S GIFT of SALVATION, through HIMSELF as MESSIAH,
and submits to HIS SPIRIT WHO LIVES YH'SHWH'S WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation) through the "CALLED OUT ONE"

is ISRAEL.
_______

Anyone (white, black, brown, yellow, red) who does not submit to YH'SHWH'S SALVATION and to HIS SPIRT
is a gentile.
_______

This is my understanding of what YH'SHWH'S SPIRIT teaches ME.

LOVE,

RICOEL

[MadeByFire]

Beseder, thank you for sharing your personal information. I'm glad you've made a decision for Messiah!

Ricoel, in response to your last post: I couldn't agree more!

blessings to you both!

matt

[Catalyst]

Greetings all,

I am new to this forum, but find this to be filled with very knowledgeable brothers and sisters in the Word. In following with BeSeder's original comments and questions, I feel he brings up a very hot topic of discussion about not only the Law pertaining to circumcision, but why Paul did as he did. Labeling Paul inconsistent or hypocritical in his dealings with Timothy and Titus results from not respecting the contexts of the two occurrences. With Timothy, the gospel would have been obstructed had he not been circumcised. With Titus, the gospel would have been impeded had he submitted to circumcision. Paul acted in perfect harmony with the gospel message that all inspired men, including himself, proclaimed. I hope this helps, as we all grow in the Grace and Knowlege of Jesus Christ. Take Care.

Craig

[MadeByFire]

Welcome to the forum, Craig!

[beseder]

hi craig,
thanks for sharing your view.
May you have much more to say--
and i agree to what you say, i just have a different view to the process of how it is done.
Hopefully i will be sound in word.
shalom

[beseder]

the way i see it:

Messiah who is the TORAH tabernacled in flesh will EXERT his character.
HE IS THE TORAH and what the Torah says he will do.

A man could not subject another to do Torah- ONLY MESSIAH CAN SUBJECT HIMSELF TO DO TORAH, while the man is dormant.

So Messiah is circumcised, and so will the body that he is in when he says to the body, be cirsumcised as a SEAL of the faith of Avraham, for you are a son of Avraham.

There was a covenant given, Isaac was given the promise of that covenant and so was circumcised
however there was another in the shadows of Avrahams faith though he did not have the covenant.
Ishmael...
another bearded man, wild, however, i can picture him leading a right life.
the arabs and moslems- though they do away withmany of Gds Torah, they are a circumcised people saying they are in the faith of Avraham, notice these are gentiles as Ishmael is also considered a gentile (nation other than Israel).
Ishmael, a gentile who is circumcised--- can he be given the promise of the covenant?
I believe he can if he "serves" his brother who has it- and Ishmael will be LIKE unto Isaac, a SON of the promise, though he is gentile (not as in an unbeliever) he is now Jew.
A jew is one who is inwardly- IT WILL SHOW OUTWARD, not one who is a jew outwrd and breaks the commandments of GD.

A gentile is subject to circumcision by the father of his faith isnt he?
If not how does Paul not go against Torah?
Genesis being the 1st book of Torah.

shalom

[Spying]

The Circumcision Of Jews!

Hi Catalyst,

Welcome to Lo Ammi! The spirit of Messiah is strong within you. Indeed, you are able to make things happen through HIS good spirit which dwells within you! May you help to alter the character of many for all our good through that same spirit!

Did the Sanhedrin of Messiah (The Supreme Court of Believers as opposed to the Supreme Court of the Jews) alter the requirement of the Law that Jews be circumcised? No, they did not! They made their decision concerning Gentile converts in Messiah! Jews were expected to be circumcised!

According to Jewish tradition, if your mother is Jewish, then you are automatically considered to be Jewish. This is the condition of Timothy, and this is why Paul circumcised him, and this is why Timothy submitted to circumcision. Again, welcome to Lo Ammi!

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

The Circumcision Of Messiah!

Hi BeSeder,

The Cross of Messiah is the circumcision of this world. All sinners, the whole of mankind, died with Messiah (2 Corinthians 5:14). So, the death of Messiah is the cutting off of all flesh both the flesh of the Jew and the flesh of the Gentile. There is no discrimination in this cutting off since all have sinned . Thus, the Cross is the circumcision of Messiah (Colossians 2:11).

There is an order to the circumcision of Messiah that works out in time somewhat similar to the order of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23). Messiah pricked me in the heart (Acts 2:37) as he called me to himself in the Seventies. Since my conversion, I have found that circumcision should be a daily life long process of taking up one's cross and following Messiah. I have repeatedly fell down in my circumcision. My flesh is stiff-necked and stubborn in its weakness, but others have been of great help to me especially my Heavenly Father who works to encourage and discipline me!

Sincerely, Spying

[beseder]

a discussion

Hi Spying,
this is where it settled down to.

Since Messiah is THE WORD and the LAW is a WORD of the WORD.
I have had discussions about this with other people for quite some time now.

I wrote that we keep MESSIAH, "WE" do not keep the commandments, However we keep messiah by remaining in Him- and HE, the MESSIAH, does it in us. Thus we do not keep Torah, But Messiah keeps Torah, his own word that he cannot break.
this is what one responded in saying:

so this body KEEPS the commandments by REMAINING IN CHRIST and BY SUBMITTING TO HIM.

AMEN!

Thus, I am not required to keep Leviticus ?:?, but required to remain in Christ, and follow where he leads me.

eg. Paul tells the Galatians NOT to be circumcised. If christians must keep the Laws as written in the Torah, why would Paul tell them to break one? Rather, physical circumcision in the Torah is a parable for the Spiritual circumcision God demands from us. The Torah describes a physical worhip of obedience, but in Christ, a spiritual salvation is revealed.

what say you?
was this true??
I remember Moses saying to the Yisraelis, you are a stiff-necked people (faithless, eg. uncircumcised at heart) even though they went through circumcision.
so if they didnt go through circumcision, would they be circumcised at heart.

I will always finish it off with this man.
If the gentiles are now sons of Avraham, since he does LIVE, will he not have them circumcised as he was.
First, circumcised in heart- then flesh-
not as jews- circumcised in flesh, then heart?

notice that this was our history- we were and are a circumcised people- yet not at heart.
a new born child is circumcised in flesh, yet not at heart, he has to grow into it.

while, the gentile has circumcision of heart, if a son of Avraham, is that it?
I know Messiah added commandments to Torah, but does that negate any other commandments?

I actually believe that the secret to being found as a brother to the 1st generation. To be legitimate children and temple of ELohim, is that even without the STONE TEMPLE (BEIS HA MIKDASH)
we MUST find out how ALL TORAH can be done in our TEMPLE NOW that is made of flesh.
This is our act that we must do!
ALL of Torah is still in play.
after this, we must find out how Messiah the High priest can change himself into the required tools, offerings, etc.