The Wavesheaf!

[Spying]

Hi Everyone,

The Pharisees and the Sadducees had a major disagreement concerning the waving of the Sheaf of the Firstfruits. The Pharisees believed that the Sheaf should be waved on the morrow after the 15th of Nisan. The 15th of Nisan is always a High Sabbath Day. It is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The Sadducees believed that the Sheaf should be waved on the morrow after the weekly Sabbath that generally falls during the Days of Unleavened Bread.

Who had the correct concept? The Passover was kept only once in the Wilderness after leaving Egypt. Then, the Passover was celebrated after the Children of Israel had crossed the Jordan River (Joshua 5:8-12).

The account in Joshua is inconclusive as to which practice is correct. The Passover Lambs were slain on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan. The Passover Lambs were roasted, and then after they were cooked, they were eaten on the 15th of Nisan. So, on the surface the keeping of the Passover does appear to involve both the 14th and the 15th of Nisan. If you are a Pharisee, naturally you would argue that the morrow after the keeping of the Passover would be the 16th of Nisan. On the other hand, if you were a Sadducee, you would argue that the 14th of Nisan in the Joshua account did actually fall on the weekly Sabbath, and you would argue that the Sheaf of the Firstfruits was waved on the 15th of Nisan instead of the 16th of Nisan as the Pharisees maintain.

We absolutely know that a waving of the Sheaf of the Firstfruits did take place in the Joshua account because the Manna ceased and the Children of Israel ate from the produce of the Land. See Leviticus 23:14!

As the Jews presently celebrate the Passover, they place a plate at their table for the Prophet EliYAH hoping that he will appear at their table (Malachi 4:5). It is expected that this Prophet will be able to answer and determine all those issues of the Law which seem uncertain.

I believe that Messiah Yahushua is the prophesied EliYAH, and that Messiah ascended to the Throne of Heaven to wave HIMSELF as the Sheaf of the Firstfruits. This waving of the Firstfruits does and did occur on the morrow after the weekly Sabbath. So, the Sadducees were indeed correct in their view.

Sincerely, Spying

[beseder]

just want to get it clear.

How many EliYah's were(are) there?

John the Immeser said he was not Eliyah
Messiah said that John was Eliyah

So I'll take Messiah's word for it.

So we say that John was Eliyah even though John said he was not.

Now you say that Messiah is Eliyah. How is that?? Well, yes you already explained in this thread and in another when you were speaking about "THE LIE"

But please make this clear. Was John the immerser Eliyah or not? and how?

shalom

Also, explain all what you have said in the above (about the weeks and the wave sheaf, etc) as if i am unlearned, the full process of everything and all- because somethings i didnt grasp in its full.
thanks.

[MadeByFire]

Did Yeshua fulfill the waving of the Firstfruits in His resurrection or in His ascension?

matt

[israelthebride]

This is what I have been taught by HIS SPIRIT.
(This is why WE need each other, because I don't know everything)
HIS SPIRIT teaches US in a way where all our information, when put/understood together, becomes ONE PLAN; YH'SHWH'S PLAN.

_______

JN 12:1 Then Jesus, six days before the PASSOVER, came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
JN 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

[color="dark blue"]This, I believe, was SABBATH.[/color]

JN 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
JN 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
JN 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
JN 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
JN 12:7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
JN 12:8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

[color="dark blue"]HE was prepared for HIS DEATH on SABBATH.[/color]

JN 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
JN 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
JN 12:11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

[color="dark blue"]On Sunday, five days before PASSOVER, HIS PEOPLE waved their PRAISE at HIS entrance into YERU'SHALOM.[/color]

JN 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
JN 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the KING of ISRAEL that cometh in the NAME of the LORD.

_______

That is all I have been taught by HIS SPIRIT.

I will need HIS BODY'S (YOU) help.

LOVE,

RICOEL

[MadeByFire]

Originally posted by israelthebride
On Sunday, five days before PASSOVER, HIS PEOPLE waved their PRAISE at HIS entrance into YERU'SHALOM

If Sunday was five days before Passover, then did Yeshua die on Friday?

matt

[MadeByFire]

I believe the waving of the Sheaf of Firstfruits is a picture of Messiah's resurrection, which was on the "morrow after the Sabbath".

Leviticus 23:10-11
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is why I believe that Messiah indeed came out of the grave on "the first day of the week" rather than the Sabbath. The teaching that Messiah came out of the grave on the Sabbath is false. It is not what Yah's word teaches us. I realize that I'm opening up a can of worms here, but hey, why not? We learn when we do this!

with love,
matt

[Spying]

The Waving!

Hi MadeByFire,

Thank you for your private inquiry. I have many concerns at this time in my life, and one of them is finding a position of employment which would enable me to keep my house in order as an Elder should do. I have neglected personal matters of that nature in order to pursue spiritual matters with a whole heart. The Tzaddikim do not believe in a paid ministry. We believe that we should work to support ourselves as was the practice of the Apostle Paul. So, I must make a few changes so that I can again keep my physical commitments as an Elder should also do!

I have not given up in the least on this thread.

I believe that Messiah was resurrected late on the Sabbath right at the going down of the sun! Messiah fulfilled the waving of the firstfruits on Sunday when he ascended to the Father. So, my answer to your question is that both the resurrection and ascension were required in order to fulfill the waving of the firstfruits. I am not here referring to the Ascension of Messiah which occurs later. I am referring to the ascension which took place on the morrow after the Sabbath.

Sincerely, Spying

[EvrVexingOfOld]

IT ACTUALLY SAYS

IESOUS rose on the morrow after the sabbath, stated by scripture, he did.
Iesous stayed re-appearing and meeting with many 40 days after the ressurection, he did.
Iesous ascended ten days before the meeting of the reciting- the feast of weeks, he did.
==================

Rise on the morrow after the sabbath from the grave, he did.
never read that he rose on the sabbath, did i.

Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath ( i wonder, is the sabbath either from morning-to-morning as it suggests here? Or evening to evening as in tradition? if its evening to evening, I-e-s-o-u-s mayhave rose after the evening in the NIGHT after sabbath, if the sabbath is from morning to morning, then he, matthew, would agree with you Spy), as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

personally, i believe an ACTUAL beginning of the day is in the morrow (morning) and sabbath is from evening to evening.
So, either way the christ did not rise on the 1st day, but on the seventh, however, not on sabbath.
he rose immediatly after sabbath into the night.

[MadeByFire]

Re: The Waving!

Originally posted by Spying
Thank you for your private inquiry. I have many concerns at this time in my life, and one of them is finding a position of employment which would enable me to keep my house in order as an Elder should do. I have neglected personal matters of that nature in order to pursue spiritual matters with a whole heart. The Tzaddikim do not believe in a paid ministry. We believe that we should work to support ourselves as was the practice of the Apostle Paul. So, I must make a few changes so that I can again keep my physical commitments as an Elder should also do!
Matt's reply: Spying, I'll pray for you and your family. I hope that your "concerns" will soon be "under your feet"

I have not given up in the least on this thread.

I believe that Messiah was resurrected late on the Sabbath right at the going down of the sun!
Matt: If Messiah had resurrected at the going down of the Sun, wouldn't it have been the "morrow after the Sabbath" that brought Him from the grave?
Messiah fulfilled the waving of the firstfruits on Sunday when he ascended to the Father.
Show me where in the bible that happened please.
So, my answer to your question is that both the resurrection and ascension were required in order to fulfill the waving of the firstfruits.
When Paul speaks of Messiah's fulfillment of the Firstfruits in 1 Cor 15, he never mentions Messiah's ascension; just the resurrection.
I am not here referring to the Ascension of Messiah which occurs later. I am referring to the ascension which took place on the morrow after the Sabbath.
again, I'd like to see where in the bible does this happen.

I have talked some about this over at Tzaddikim with Hyssop. If you'd like to check it out, go for it:Remember the Sabbath...

sincerely,
matt

[Spying]

The Omer!

Hi MadeByFire,

Thank you for your prayers (I have need of them) and for your reply and the link to your discussion with Hyssop. I would encourage all who are following this thread to read that discussion as we continue here. I am going to proceed as if the information on that thread is understood by all who are reading here. To increase your background knowledge, I want you to be aware that Hyssop, ImAHebrew, and I have devoted many pleasant hours together arguing the issue as to whether Messiah arose from the dead on Sabbath or Sunday. Hyssop stands like a rock for Sabbath. ImAHebrew inclines more toward Sunday. I have argued that the resurrection actually occurred during that period of time at the exact setting of the sun where an argument can be made for both Sabbath and Sunday. Hyssop won't let me get away with that position so I am inclined to stand with Hyssop! I would encourage you to visit with the Tzaddikim. You will have the pleasure of personally meeting Hyssop and ImAHebrew and possibly Scarlet!

I was trained in the Greek language, and I am comfortable with working up translations. I find Luke 24:21 to be one of the most troublesome scriptures in the New Testament to attempt to explain. This is what those type of scriptures do for me: They force me to keep an open mind!

While I am Tzaddikim, that is, a Sadducee on the issue of the Omer or Wavesheaf, as BeSeder can tell you, I have a whole lot of Pharisee in me. I personally believe that the stated goal of Messiah to fulfill the Law does not dismiss the Oral Tradition. So, Messiah, himself, personally made decisions based upon the requirements of the Oral Law. Since Messiah was EliYAH and also "that Prophet", Messiah's interpretation or practice does however stand. We can discover the stance of Messiah by watching what he does or by looking at the events which unfolded around him. Believe it or not, since we are a part of Messiah, we are also EliYAH and "that Prophet", that is, we have the authority to bind or loose. This authority, as Israelthebride does ably indicate on the "No Faith" thread, can also be seen in what we do or practice, in how we live our lives. I really liked Israelthebride's understanding on binding and loosening. It has helped me to begin to understand how we can further bind Satan!

Indeed, the Mishnah requires that the Omer be bound (Menahoth 65a, The Babylonian Talmud, The Soncino Press, London):

What was the procedure? The messengers of the Beth Din used to go out on the day before the Festival and tie the unreaped corn in bunches to make it the easier to reap. All the inhabitants of the towns near by assembled there, so that it might be reaped with much display. As soon as it became dark he called out,.............'Shall I reap? And they answered, 'Reap'. He repeated every matter three times, and they answered, 'Yes'. 'Yes'. 'Yes'.......Did not Messiah say something about thrice?

Mishnah (Menahoth 66a): They reaped it, put it into the baskets, and brought it to the Temple Court; Then they parched it with fire in order to fulfil the precept that it should be parched [with fire].........

Mishnah (Menahoth 67b): He then came to the tenth, put in oil, and its frankincense, poured in the oil, mingled it, waved it, brought it near [to the Altar], took from it the handful, and burnt it; and the remainder was eaten by the priests........

Mishnah (Menahoth 71a): ...........The precept of the Omer is that it shall be brought from the standing corn;............The precept is that it shall be reaped by night; if it was reaped by day it is valid. Moreover it overrides the Sabbath. (There is quite a discussion in the Gemara concerning what exactly this overriding is about)

Mishnah (Menahoth 74b): All meal-offerings that are prepared in a vessel require three applications of oil before they are made ready, viz., pouring, mingling, putting in. The [baked] cakes were mingled [with oil]. So Rabbi. But the Sages say, the fine flour [was mingled with oil]. The cakes required mingling and the the wafers anointing. How were they anointed? In the form of CHI....(There exists a footnote to explain this CHI: (2) In the form of a cross like the Greek letter X.....) How about that!

Mishnah (Menahoth 75a): All meal-offerings that are prepared in a vessel require to be broken in pieces.

Mishnah (Menahoth 76b): The 'Omer' was sifted through thirteen sieves. The Two Loaves through twelve, and the Shewbread through eleven......(Humm? What do you think about that?)

I only see bits and pieces, but I see Messiah and his disciples all over these requirements. What do you see? Anything at all?

Sincerely, Spying

[MadeByFire]

Spying,

I plan to examine what you've given, but I must say, the "oral tradition" is exactly that: tradition. And In the gospels we have many quotes from tanakh. I'm not so sure about the "Mishnah". Personally, I would prefer to stick with God's word rather than relying on the "traditions" of men when "arguing" about biblical doctrine. Although I have found to be interesting the things that I've read about "Mishna" and "Talmud".

Please don't wait on me to make your point about what you've posted. I'm not sure where you're headed right now, so proceed, and I'll catch up with you there.

...about being a Pharisee... be careful, you know what Matthew23 says!

matt

[MadeByFire]

also...

we seem to be in agreement that Messiah came out of the grave at sunset on "Saturday". Think about it like this, it was the first day of the week that woke Him up!

[Spying]

Lawful Tradition!

Hi MadeByFire,

Our ELOHIM is not an ELOHIM of confusion. There is order and purpose to HIS activity. Paul writes that there is an order to the resurrection. All die by Messiah, and all are resurrected by Messiah. John further indicates that a general resurrection of the dead occurs after the thousand years are ended. Unless time is added to the Seventh Day as time was added to the Third Day, a general resurrection, after the Seventh Day, is indicative of a possible Eighth Day resurrection for Messiah. This would incline to make me conclude that the resurrection of Messiah from the dead encompasses both the Seventh and Eighth days.

Tradition is important in these considerations; however, if I cannot convince someone that they should pay attention to what is written, i.e. remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, how will I convince anyone to pay attention to tradition?

Tradition teaches that the hour before sunset Friday evening and the hour after sunset Saturday evening is Sabbath time. Tradition also teaches that trumps were blown on Friday afternoon to announce the coming of the Sabbath Day according to a certain schedule. Paul teaches that the resurrection occurs at the last trump. So, we can conclude that oral tradition is very important to our own resurrection.

None of these considerations make Sunday a replacement for the Sabbath Day. Nonetheless, most Chr-stians assemble on Sunday. I am amused at this traditional practice by all who claim to follow what is written in the Bible. There is absolutely no written biblical authority for Sunday assembly in lieu of the Sabbath. Indeed, if you attend any assembly on Sunday, you are following the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church which did make Sunday a replacement for the Sabbath Day! So, you already follow tradition in you life. I would implore you to pay more attention to lawful tradition as opposed to unlawful tradition.

Sincerely, Spying

[MadeByFire]

Spying,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't have time for much of a reply... just wanted to say one thing for now:

I do not believe that Sunday is a replacement for the Sabbath. Nor do I believe that Sunday is any sort of fulfillment of the Sabbath. But I have shown you what I do believe is the fulfillment of the Sabbath. Actually, I have more yet to share about that.

I'll write more soon. I'm trying to cut down on my time spent on the message boards. I've been getting carried away lately...

with love,
matt

[MadeByFire]

Re: Lawful Tradition!

Originally posted by Spying :
Our ELOHIM is not an ELOHIM of confusion. There is order and purpose to HIS activity. Paul writes that there is an order to the resurrection. All die by Messiah, and all are resurrected by Messiah. John further indicates that a general resurrection of the dead occurs after the thousand years are ended. Unless time is added to the Seventh Day as time was added to the Third Day, a general resurrection, after the Seventh Day, is indicative of a possible Eighth Day resurrection for Messiah. This would incline to make me conclude that the resurrection of Messiah from the dead encompasses both the Seventh and Eighth days.

Tradition is important in these considerations; however, if I cannot convince someone that they should pay attention to what is written, i.e. remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, how will I convince anyone to pay attention to tradition?
Matt says: This is something that we have yet to settle

Tradition teaches that the hour before sunset Friday evening and the hour after sunset Saturday evening is Sabbath time. Tradition also teaches that trumps were blown on Friday afternoon to announce the coming of the Sabbath Day according to a certain schedule. Paul teaches that the resurrection occurs at the last trump. So, we can conclude that oral tradition is very important to our own resurrection.

None of these considerations make Sunday a replacement for the Sabbath Day. Nonetheless, most Chr-stians assemble on Sunday. I am amused at this traditional practice by all who claim to follow what is written in the Bible. There is absolutely no written biblical authority for Sunday assembly in lieu of the Sabbath. Indeed, if you attend any assembly on Sunday, you are following the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church which did make Sunday a replacement for the Sabbath Day! So, you already follow tradition in you life. I would implore you to pay more attention to lawful tradition as opposed to unlawful tradition.
Matt: I never said Sunday is a replacement for the Sabbath, nor do I believe that this was ever the intent of "Sunday services". Perhaps the early Christians met on this day because they knew it was the day on which their Savior had risen from the dead. Perhaps there was a need to gather on "Sunday" rather than the Sabbath in order to separate the "Tzaddikim" from the "unbelievers".

Okay, so the Sunday gathering is a "tradition". But your statement that the Roman Catholic Church started it isn't exactly a proven fact, is it?

matt