Announcement

**israelthebride** · 03-16-2003, 08:16 PM

TRUTH is:

TRUTH is:

that according to YH'SHWH'S WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation), we all deserve to die and go to hell.

The LAW by itself will/does condemn US.

But, according to HIS GRACE, WE are doing better than WE deserve.

YH'SHWH'S LOVE SAVES US from that condemnation.

Once WE say WE have submitted to HIS GIFT of SALVATION, HE asks US to submit to HIS SPIRIT, WHO will LIVE HIS WORD/LAW through US.

YH'SHWH will BE YH'SHWH in US.

This is SALVATION.

LOVE,

RICOEL

**EvrVexingOfOld** · 03-16-2003, 08:28 PM

EVASION

its funny how you avoid to answer the question.
i started this thread in a hope that some one will have an answer as to WHY God goes against his own word as it seems.

To me, it looks as if God himself sinned- so does His own law condemn Him?
you say:

The LAW by itself will/does condemn US.

so does God need to be spared from his own rod too?

But, according to HIS GRACE, WE are doing better than WE deserve.

So you are implying that God deserves punishment from his own law?

answerthe original question and then these, Israel, or anyone else that HAS the answer.
Im tired of sitting in a hope that cant be met, SOME ONE, if you are truely a child of the book, GIVE ME a very suitable answer to these and all of my questions regarding bible- Then I will know that the Bible is trustworthy- thats when i can focus on His love as you say Israel.
However, if i cant trust him in his own word, why should I love him.
CLARIFY YOU MUST!

**Thummim** · 03-16-2003, 09:50 PM

A few arguments for the righteousness of YHWH.

EverVexingOfOld,

15 To shew that YHWH is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him. Ps. 92: 15

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...It seems that, as a condition to establishing righteousness, one begins at being righteous. YHWH is always righteous. So can the law that he writes bind him? Is there a difference between a servant and his master? It is possible to portray the kingdoms of Israel as being harlots. But are they? A human being can be called a gorilla, a bear, a snake etc, and not be any of these things. Isn't this the case for YHWH's people? These people can also be portrayed as a fig tree. But it is only to convey the thoughts of an author to his readers. The fruits that YHWH is looking for in his people, isn't figs.

...An ever righteous Eloheem needn't answer to charges of accepting an unfaithful wife back into his compassion. Nor is the law unmovable for the lawbreaker among his people. The forgiveness of a transgression, voids the transgression or else forgiveness would be a lie held in the memory of a bad deed that cannot be forgiven.

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1 Then said YHWH unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of YHWH toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek YHWH their God, and David their king; and shall fear YHWH and his goodness in the latter days. Hos. 3: 1 - 5

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...So is Hosea in sin for taking this wife to wed? If YHWH does not hold the guilt of law over Hosea's head, why in demonstrating his love for his own people, should he hold himself guilty? The law has a key called forgiveness.

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6 And YHWH passed by before him, and proclaimed, YHW{d}H, YHWH Elohenu, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Ex. 34: 6, 7

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...Unless you vindicate YHWH, would he vindicate you? YHWH's law is not a prison to him, of his own building. I would be interested in Don's {truth} answer to your question.

....Michael

**Spying** · 03-17-2003, 07:08 AM

A Woman With Many Lovers!

Hi EvrVexingOfOld,

I am of Joseph, and I claim to be in an intimate relationship with Messiah Yahushua. I have also in no uncertain terms often stated that Messiah Yahushua is the reborn or reconstituted YAHWEH ELOHIM. So, I should have an answer for you, should I not?

Clearly, YAHWEH always acts in a righteous manner as Thummim does suggest. So, mercy and restoration must be accomplished in accordance with HIS righteousness; otherwise, as you suggest, ELOHIM would be guilty of establishing a great abomination in bringing lost Israel back to HIMSELF

:

Ps 22:1
1 ELI, ELI, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (KJV)

Actually, Observer of Old, Israel is not the one who has the most pressing problem here! This issue is even greater for Judah.

The mere suggestion that YAHWEH is reborn indicates that YAHWEH has somehow died. If YAHWEH has died, and if YAHWEH is an eternal High Priest, which HE is, how could YAH even begin to take JUDAH again to HIMSELF? While Israel may be lost, JUDAH is now a widow if YAH has died!

The righteousness of YAHWEH clearly commands:

Lev 21:14
14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife. (KJV)

So, what appeal would JUDAH, who even now is still a woman with many lovers, have for Messiah Yahushua?

Sincerely, Spying

**EvrVexingOfOld** · 03-17-2003, 08:17 AM

NONE

UNLESS Judah were to die and become a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PERSON- she would by no means be acceptable to GD.

AND "DESACRED TOOL under Greek mud", you fail to understand how forgiveness is actually given and recieved.
All of this is a part of YOUR GRECIAN influence on your religion.
You are no better than Hellenistic jews that swarmed all over christianity.
Forgiveness is freely given to the point of abuse- sure!?

RESTUDY- RE-STUDY YDUTSER RESTUDY, and come out of that greek mud. GOOP BLOOP

**israelthebride** · 03-17-2003, 10:38 AM

The ANSWER is YH'SHWH

I believe;

I did give you the answer.

YH'SHWH, HIMSELF, came as a human to die for human's sin.

The first man/woman sinned when they moved/made a decision without YH'SHWH.

YH'SHWH, in HIS LOVE/GRACE, SACRIFICED an INNOCENT animal (I believe a LAMB) and covered their sin (man/woman) with it's INNOCENT SKIN.

ABEL SACRIFICED a lamb when it was time to offer YH'SHWH a GIFT. What ABEL was doing was offering YH'SHWH what YH'SHWH has done for US, as WE should.
Cain was offering what Cain had done for YH'SHWH.
ABEL's GIFT was accepted.

So, the SACRIFICE began and was misused causing more sin on US.

Then, YH'SHWH, HIMSELF as a human, came to be SACRIFICED as a human.
HE could not come down as GOD. HE had to be human to be SACRIFICED as a human.
HE had to deny HIMSELF and submit to HIS SPIRIT, as WE should.

YH'SHWH did all things, here on earth, as a human submitted to SPIRIT, as WE can.

YH'SHWH came to be SACRIFICED for HIS PEOPLE, who were dead because of sin.
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HE could not go against HIS LAW.

That was the reason for HIS SACRIFICE.

A human with no sin in HIM, but ALL SIN on HIM, was SACRIFICED.

Now, WE put HIS SPIRIT in US and HIS BODY on US.

This is SALVATION from death of the LAW.

HIS SALVATION is HIS LOVE for ME.

Through this SALVATION, WE, HIS ISRAEL,
are HIS BRIDE and HE is our HUSBAND.

WE are HIS PEOPLE and HE is our GOD.

HIS WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation) is TRUTH.

LOVE,

RICOEL

**Thummim** · 03-17-2003, 10:51 AM

Another mans wife likely has known her husband.!

E-V-O-O,

...If YHWH is ever righteous, how would his own law bind him? Righteousness seems to be whatever YHWH does. So the "fulfilling" of mitzvot must be something for YHWH to ask of others. A master may give a law to his servants, binding them to his will, and yet not binding himself. Why must YHWH paint the barn, if he has a servant to serve his desire? It is good to be the king! Even David made whoopie with Uriah's wife. I'm sure that Uriah wasn't a practitioner of abstinence with such a beautiful wife. Yet from Bathsheba {and David} comes Solomon. Can David be forgiven his transgression? YHWH can have his wife as many times as he desires, no matter how unfaithful she has been, as long as he is willing.

....Michael

**truth** · 03-18-2003, 05:20 AM

VEX

DID God SIN!?!?
The law says:

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Lev 21:7 They shall not take a wife [that is] a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he [is] holy unto his God.

Lev 21:14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, [or] an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.

Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
-

And yet it seems tome that God went back on his own word.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

JER 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Jer 3:11__ And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

Jer 3:12__ Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.

Jer 5:7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by [them that are] no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses. -

him being merciful or not doesnt mean he goes against his own law. or understanding am i not?

BUH BYE

PS these are one of the fallacies i see in OT. This is for you "truth"

__________________
Observer of Old. Vexing all. Trusting none. seeking in all.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Isaiah

48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for YHWH hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

49:14 But Zion said, YHWH hath forsaken me, and my master hath forgotten me.

49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

49:17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.

(My thanks to mike for making me look again at these verses)

VEX Does YHWH sin?

NO!

The children of Yisrael have suffered plenty . They have rob themselves of their heritage ,and knowledge of who they are. To this day they are suffering under idolatry as well.(which is the main reason they got into trouble in the first place)
Clearly YHWH will save them from themselves, But He will do it for His own Name sake .

**EvrVexingOfOld** · 03-18-2003, 05:50 AM

I'LL make it easier

Hi "truth" , Hi "desacred tool burried undr greek mud",

make the REAL QUESTION APPARENT, I will!

HOW has God sinned not, according to those parts of BIBLE?
Justified acts, How are they?
Missing, what am I?

In the opening of Jeremiah 3, the writer quotes his God beginning with "they say" or "they have a saying" and he finishes off with the law in Deutoronomy 24:4, AND THEN its like God makes an excuse of himself saying , "BUT I"

THE ONLY WAY, BY HIS OWN LAW, CAN I SEE His acts justified Is that if he is calling to an Israel and Judah that has not sinned in this fashion.
A pure Israel and Judah.
Sure, probably a same people by a common law, practice , and blood.
However, the OLD ISRAEL and JUDAH must have to have diedsome how.
IF God were to die and come back to life, there is still a whore he cannot be wed too. If Judah and Israel die, the law concerning her "not returning" is broken, and if Gd were to raise her, she would be a different person only with the same name, law, and practice{same features only now with alot more}

So,why would both need to die spy?
And to the two of you, "truth" and "Desacred tool", answer the rest

**israelthebride** · 03-18-2003, 10:26 PM

According to EvrVexingOfOld

EvrVexingOfOld,

If you cannot believe that YH'SHWH GIVES you that "freedom" to be HIS BRIDE, ISRAEL, by HIS SACRIFICE;

Then, according to you, WE are all damned.

No one will convince you or prove HIS WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation) to you because you have your own belief.

One day you will run into the "ROCK" and you will know WHO HE is.

You are seeking and that is good.

LOVE,

RICOEL

**Spying** · 03-19-2003, 08:18 AM

OK, Let's Justify ELOHIM!

Hi EvrVexingOfOld,

I love it that you are attempting to justify the ways of ELOHIM to men. Poor blind John Milton engaged in such a venture, and he wrote "Paradise Lost" as a result. I agree with little of the theology of "Paradise Lost", but I do understand the desire to justify ELOHIM to men. Milton was much persecuted because he denied the immortality of the soul. How many religions teach the immortality of the soul? It is for certain that man will never justify the ways of ELOHIM when they so easily disregard what HE has commanded and said. "The soul that sins shall die."

You are right on in your thinking about this issue. All mankind must die, and not just the descendants of Israel and Judah, if ELOHIM is to be justified. ELOHIM created the livings souls, and then ELOHIM gave commandments to these living souls. No living soul asked for the commandments, and only Israel promised to wholly keep them. Both Israel and Judah broke their vow. They promised to be faithful and to do all that ELOHIM commands. Israel was divorced, and, at the very least, Judah's husband has vanished. ELOHIM has not spoken a word to her in almost two thousand years. As I have stated, Judah has been much passed around. She has been forced to whore herself in order to live. She would be far better off if she could prove that her husband has indeed died. If she could prove that ELOHIM has died, then she would be totally free to reexamine her vows, and she would be free to marry another.

In order for that to happen, Judah must become blind as I am blind. Master Paul is a role model for Judah, and all of his great teaching does justify the ways of ELOHIM to men, but you have to be blind to see it.

I have no teaching of my own. I am very grateful to Messiah Yahushua for Paul. Paul knows that ELOHIM is justified! Look at this statement:

Rom 3:4
4 ELOHIM forbid: yea, let ELOHIM be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (KJV)

Observer of Old, if all indeed have died, surely ELOHIM is justified in HIS sayings. If all indeed have died, what prevents ELOHIM from having mercy both upon the living and the dead? If all indeed have died, what prevents ELOHIM from constructing from that body of death, a woman that is flesh of HIS flesh and bone of HIS bone, a woman that is pure and holy as HE is holy? Nothing! Hurrah for ADONAI MESSIAH YAHUSHUA!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 03-19-2003, 10:36 AM

Who lives and who dies? Since we all die, these words must speak of justice.

Ezekiel 18: 20 - 32

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith Adonai Elohenu: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of Adonai is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of Adonai is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith Adonai Elohenu. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith Adonai Elohenu: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Eze. 18: 20 - 32

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...Spying, the question here is a mans righteousness. A righteous man lives, but an unrighteous man dies. YHWH is the judge of all. If a man vow a vow to YHWH, must he keep that vow to be considered righteous? Should he die if he breaks his vow? Israel is unrighteous in their sin. But if they recover their righteousness, won't they live? There are two sides to this coin.

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6 And YHWH passed by before him, and proclaimed, YHW(d)H, YHWH Elohenu, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Ex. 34: 6, 7

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...YHWH forgives sin. He pardons transgression. He chooses between the guilty and the righteous. All of this accompanies the proclamation of his Name.

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25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isa. 43: 25

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22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa. 44: 22

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...So if YHWH blots out the transgressions of Israel, they will live?

...You know that this decree of righteousness was made in the time of Cyrus, who is also named in the same paragraph. {Isa: 44: 1} You know that YHWH does this act of pardoning transgression for his own sake. Do you have another charge to lay at the feet of Israel, that has occured since this decree was given, that YHWH charges against his people? If there is no such charge by YHWH, that would speak of a righteous people free from their sin, wouldn't it? We really need to give within the proper context, the verses of text that we use. How is your vow coming?

....Michael

Announcement

DID God SIN!?!?

DID God SIN!?!?

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