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**Thummim** · 02-24-2003, 07:15 PM

...Not what it appears!

...Truth,

...The talmud is a commentary on the tanakh which consists of three different collections of writings. They are the torah, the most important book to JEWish students, the Neve'im {the prophets} and the Kethuvim {the writings}. The talmud is not the supreme book of JEWish study. The torah is more than a commentary. The relationship would be simular to that of YHWH vs. his ministers?. They all claim to represent GD, but their opinions differ. The torah and the talmud are not in the same class at all. The talmud is not a book where its authors have come to a consensus. The opinions of its rabbi's {its authors} are of conflicting opinion. It is a collection of commentaries that are argued among students. Because an author can write commentary that seems permissible in biblical thought, it doesn't mean that anybody agrees with these strange notions. For instance, where is the mitzvot that define sexual relationships between children and adults? Add to this to the idea that a female is property in the tanakh, and one can come up with some strange conclusions to argue. Two stories come to mind here. Both are in the book of Judges. There is the story of Jephthah. He offers to give YHWH the first thing that comes through his doors as a burnt offering, if he will give him a victory. His daughter comes through the doors to meet him upon his return. He then gives her a little time to bewail her virginity, and afterwards, burns her on an altar. {Jud. 11: 30, 31} He repays his vow. The other story is about the rapeing of a mans concubine {Jud. 19: 24 - 29} The man divided up his concubine into twelve pieces and sent them {into all the coasts of Israel}. Both of these stories might seem to support the idea that having sex with little girls, is an exceptable practice. Read especially Jud. 19: 24 to see permission being given. But this is not the purpose of making such arguments. It is unlikely that the auther who wrote this, actually believed what he wrote. He was commenting on the law. But on the surface, if it is ok to take the life of a female, why wouldn't it be OK to use her sexually as well? Which is the lesser evil? I can argue the tanakh without believing what I am arguing. Now you tell me where it says that children are not for sex in the text of the tanakh? Do you see what I'm getting at? The seeming permission that the tanakh seems to support, may not be there at all, but it is worth arguing. We all have to write our own mitzvot. 613 are not enough to cover all circumstances. But out of the arguments, we can gain some direction. Their is always honor to argue. What is honorable? This is the trap that trying to hold JEWs accountable to the tanakh, forces upon us. We must be allowed to adjust the words that our fathers have written, to fit the evolution in our own faith. Why do you, and others read our book and judge us accountable for not keeping all its rules, while you build your own faith upon its ideas, and yet do not esteem it's words enough to honor them yourself? We make our arguments, and you make your own. But we still end up in the same place, believing the same things. JEWs do not believe that it is OK to molest little girls. I'm sure that you do not believe that doing so is OK either.

....Michael

**truth** · 02-25-2003, 04:20 PM

"Why do you, and others read our book and judge us accountable for not keeping all its rules, while you build your own faith upon its ideas, and yet do not esteem it's words enough to honor them yourself? We make our arguments, and you make your own. But we still end up in the same place, believing the same things. JEWs do not believe that it is OK to molest little girls. I'm sure that you do not believe that doing so is OK either.

....Michael"

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Shalom Michael

No I don't believe it the right thing to do either, So why is it in your Talmud? Or is that just commentary?
Better yet why do you even need the Talmud?

This post is not just about molesting little girls either. It's about the clear and out right racism that is believed by Jews based on their religion i.e. Judaism. ( which is a pretty good trick in itself when you consider the fact that truly there is NO Jewish race unless you consider the Khazars who where sons of Yepheth)

It would seem thanks to their religion that they believe that they are the choosen race (That is Orthodox isn't it?) and everyone else is a Piece of dirt to be used, misled, and exploited - all justified of course because of their Theology.

Or have I missed something?

**Thummim** · 02-25-2003, 05:57 PM

Mishpacha {family}

...Truth,

...You've missed something. It is about family. Weither its members are adopted into the faith of Judiasm through intermarriage, or through a choice to become JEWish, or are born JEWish, it is about family. The JEWish family is not the family of the world. It is not christianity, or buddism, or islam. It is Judiasm {the faith} and Yahudee {the family of JEWs}. It is not racist to be a people. It is also about a Name. If you write YaHudah in Hebrew, and take the fourth letter out of this spelling of YaHudaH, you are left with the letters, {YHWH}. If you breath this Name into the image of GD, you arive at what the tanakh is all about. It's about {Shem --> the Name} and what becomes of this line that passes through Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and through David as well. This Name is the work of Moses. YHWH answers Moses question, "what is your Name?" It is an answer to {Deut. 12: 5}, identifying which tribe that YHWH will choose to put his Name into. {confirmed in Ps. 78: 67 - 69} This Name is a family Name. It is not the Name of the world. It is not a Name that christianity has been kind to. It is not a Name that islam has been overly kind to, either. But it is the Name of GD {YHWH} When YHWH shows his glory to Moses, he actually proclaims this Name. In my many posts on this site, I've written many things on Hashem. If you are interested, you need only make a search of this forum to learn about Hashem. {the Name}

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Truth writes;

No I don't believe it the right thing to do either, So why is it in your Talmud? Or is that just commentary?
Better yet why do you even need the Talmud?

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...The talmud is not law. It is not given the honor of mitzvot. Neither is the commentary a consensis of opinion. It houses oposing opinions. For the same reason that lawbooks exist, the talmud also exists. The laws are not enough. If this were so, all the laws of the United States could be stored on a single disk. But it would take tens of thousands of disks to store them, because of the commentary that exists on these laws.

...It is obvious that a females honor may be sacrificed for the honor of a man. Jud. 19: 24 and Gen. 19: 8 clearly show this. Does YHWH object anywhere in the text, to this situation? This gives us need for commentary. If a female is property, what rights has she? I hope that you understand the need for commentary here. All is not spelled out in the torah. Many things are open to study. That is what the talmud is all about.

...List some of the promises that YHWH makes to gentiles. The JEWish people exist as a people in flesh through circumcision, in Name through the Name of YHWH, and in tradition through the laws of their covenant {brit}. They are as well, deeded land by their Eloheem. I suppose that it is like a wedding ring. For honoring the laws of YHWH, they get to wear the land of Israel. If the JEWish people were not a people, why do christians and moslems keep pointing them out? Why all the pointing fingers? Even yours is extended.

....Michael

**truth** · 03-01-2003, 07:05 AM

I haven't missed a thing!

..”.Truth,

...You've missed something. It is about family.”

Shalom

I don’t think I have missed that in scripture the Yahuwdim is about Family!

Judaism is the culprit, that is to say this religion seems to have missed this point completely . It’s about bloodline family all the way. It’s not about adoption or a multitude of other races overwhelming and taking over a heritage that don’t belong to them.

But that is exactly what has taken place.

Today a JEW is a result of Khazars infusion as well many other racial strains . Nevertheless the lingering influence of Judaism’s historical racial message, though based on illusion, acts as a powerful emotional break by appealing to tribal loyalty, when there is no such tribe. Their “CHOOSEN RACE THEOLGY” is a clear and present danger to us all.

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/koestler/

**Thummim** · 03-02-2003, 09:49 AM

Denigh your own self. Doing so might be a part of your own faith, but not mine.

Truth, {Don?} writes,

Judaism is the culprit, that is to say this religion seems to have missed this point completely . It’s about bloodline family all the way. It’s not about adoption or a multitude of other races overwhelming and taking over a heritage that don’t belong to them.

...The JEWish people are infused with the blood of {strangers} with permission. There is no longer a JEWish race. A JEW looks like an American, an Israeli, a Brit, or a Frenchman, etc. Arguing that there is a JEWish race, is without any merit. The JEWish people are held together by a common faith, with completely separate chag'im {holidays} and traditions, which are still taught to JEWish children to pass down L' dor V' dor, generation to generation. There is no faith closer to what the torah teaches than that practiced by the JEWish people. Truth, you would have me believe that the people who were slaughtered in the holocaust, as JEWs, were not JEWs. That effectively would end any conversation that we could have on this forum, or any other. You are asking all JEWs to denigh their own Name. {heritage} All you will get from me for asking such a thing, is a stone.

....Michael

**truth** · 03-04-2003, 05:47 PM

Truth, you would have me believe that the people who were slaughtered in the holocaust, as JEWs, were not JEWs. That effectively would end any conversation that we could have on this forum, or any other. You are asking all JEWs to denigh their own Name. {heritage} All you will get from me for asking such a thing, is a stone.

....Michael

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

No Michael they certainly are Jews and I wouldn't want them to-Lets see how did you put it ====denigh their own Name , but that does not make them true son of Yisrael or Yahuwdah.

A Jew is an Impostor claiming the heritage of Yahuwdah and the son’s of Yisrael as their own.

Why?

It fully falls on their RELIGIOUS THEOLOGY and their Choosen Race doctrine,which is Racism by anyones definition. RACISM in it's ugliest form all based on pure Fabrication

**Thummim** · 03-04-2003, 11:35 PM

JEW is a poor attempt to say Judah. But then, you ought to see how Yeshua can sound.

...Don {truth} writes,

It fully falls on their RELIGIOUS THEOLOGY and their Choosen Race doctrine,which is Racism by anyones definition. RACISM in it's ugliest form all based on pure Fabrication

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...There is no such thing as a chosen race doctrine in JEWish theology. In fact, there isn't even a word for "race" in the torah. The infusion of genes through other peoples daughters, and the concept of exceptable "strangers" shoots down the idea of racism. Moses himself even married an Ethiopian woman. {Nu. 12: 1} We JEWs do not consider ourselves a race of people. We are a family. The spread of the JEWish people can be traced through JEWish communities that migrated from Judaea. The Assyrians carried off the northern tribes of Israel and the world swallowed them up. JEWish communities were to be found all over the mediteranian, even in the days of Rome. But as to communities of racially pure YaHudeem, they didn't exist. Intermarriage from YaHudaH {the patriarch} himself voided that possibility. Shelah {son of Judah} was of a Canaanite mother himself. {see Gen. chap. 38} His offspring are a part of the JEWish people. The Canaanites are decendents of Ham. But their genes are a part of the JEWish people, as well as the genes of many other people. JEWish communities are identified as being JEWish by those {non JEWs} who live around those same communities. There has been no attempt to decieve anybody. We JEWs practice our chag {festivals} and JEWish traditions as no other people in this world do. We have no competitors to replace us. If we are not YaHudaH, why does everybody call us "JEWs" in some fashion that approximates the term "das Juden"? You cannot ever convince me that we JEWs are not YaHudee from the term YaHudaH. YaHudaH is our name no matter what you think. Note also, that the text of the tanakh {Isa. 48: 1} has us birthing our own brethren {the other tribes of Israel} We are both YaHudaH and Israel. If you go back 26 verses in the text of Isaiah, to {Isa. 46: 3, 4}, you will see that YHWH and YaHudaH both break water to give birth to the same children. In the Name of YHWH, all JEWs of all tribes are gathered up together. It is interesting that we have named our land Israel, isn't it? I doubt that an imposter would do so. But since we break water on this task, there is no sense in not bringing to birth this child.

....Michael

**truth** · 03-05-2003, 05:27 PM

You know, really I owe you an apology !

You want too know why?

Because you are the first JEW I have ever talked too that would admit the truth.

Being a JEW or being JEWISH is Not a Race and never has been and you admit it.
That’s good my friend. I just wish that your Jewish buddies would admit it also.

You don’t know how many times I have talked to some that swear up and down that they are Direct Kin to Yahuwdah Himself. A very good trick when your are neither a Hebrew nor Semitic ,much less an Yiraelite.

As for your statement about the Chosen-Race doctrine or is that Theology (which you claim doesn’t exist ) well I guess you have never heard of Jewish orthodoxy. Perhaps you need to look a little farther into your own RELIGION.

Shalom

**Thummim** · 03-05-2003, 06:32 PM

Just ask.

...Don {truth} writes,

Being a JEW or being JEWISH is Not a Race and never has been and you admit it.
That’s good my friend. I just wish that your Jewish buddies would admit it also.

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...While I've heard that a few JEWs think of the JEWish people as a "race" of peoples, there is really nothing in the tanakh to back up the idea of a JEWish "race". However, there is a JEWish people who make up a larger "family of people" than any limited amount of genes can define. Why should we believe that even Abraham is "pure"? What would that mean? Most JEWs plainly agree that the JEWish people are not a race of people, and have never been. You only need to call a few rabbi's and ask whether or not the JEWish people have been any sort of racial entity, now or in the past. Even most orthodox rabbi's would tell you no. As I have said, there is not a Hebrew word for "Race". The nearest word that I know is "geyr", a stranger; {pronounced gare} from "gazah", to cut off or portion out. But it doesn't exactly work as the word "race", even with great effort. In any case, call around and ask. You've let yourself be misled. It would be hard for me to imagine that any JEWs who looked into the faces of each other, would believe that these faces defined a "race" of people. What did Abraham look like? Wasn't he from Ur of the Chaldees. That would be Babylon. {but of Shem} So Abraham must have looked very Arab to my way of thinking. But most JEWs look more like any other American or Brit, etc. It's not about a "race of people", at all. It is about the name of a people and the Name of their Eloheem. Even Hitler couldn't tell who was JEWish by looking. Thats why those who were determined to be JEWish, had to wear yellow stars. It made {JEWs?} easy to spot by racists.

...Hey, I'm glad that you made it back to this site.

....Michael

**truth** · 03-06-2003, 07:05 PM

You found me out!

Shalom Michael

It’s good to see that you are still around. Really I mean that is from my heart of hearts

Your out right honesty is refreshing and I really appreciate it.

Have I been misled ?

More than likely All my ever loving life.

http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=jew

Jew (Page: 800)

Jew (?), n. [OF. Juis, pl., F. Juif, L. Judaeus, Gr. , fr. the country of the Jews, Judea, fr. Heb. Yhdāh Judah, son of Jacob. Cf. Judaic.] Originally, one belonging to the tribe or kingdom of Judah; after the return from the Babylonish captivity, any member of the new state; a Hebrew; an Israelite........

Jew's frankincense, gum styrax, or benzoin. -- Jew's mallow (Bot.), an annual herb (Corchorus olitorius) cultivated in Syria and Egypt as a pot herb, and in India for its fiber. -- Jew's pitch, asphaltum; bitumen. -- The Wandering Jew, an imaginary personage, who, for his cruelty to the Savior during his passion, is doomed to wander on the earth till Christ's second coming.

So tell me bro. Just where do you find in the scripture that a Religion makes you a Jew ( a race/family/etc of people)?

P.S.

I know you said there was no such thing as “RACE” found in scripture ,which is more than likely true but can you tell me where you can truly find the term JEW or even Judaism for that matter in the scriptures?

I would really be interested !

Your brother in YHWH

don

**Thummim** · 03-06-2003, 11:46 PM

YaHudaH, by JEW!

...Don writes,

So tell me bro. Just where do you find in the scripture that a Religion makes you a Jew ( a race/family/etc of people)?

P.S.

I know you said there was no such thing as “RACE” found in scripture ,which is more than likely true but can you tell me where you can truly find the term JEW or even Judaism for that matter in the scriptures?

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...JEW?, the word is Yahudee. The term "JEW" came from the word, "Judaean" and was first used by the Romans to refer to the YaHudeem that occupied the land that they had conquered. It is a simple shortening of the names in a language, as often happens with most Names. Similarly, Donald would be Don, and Michael would be Mike. An so it goes. Language is not static. It flows like a river. But then you already knew that.

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12 And YHWH shall inherit Yahudah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Zech. 2: 12

16 YHWH will take Yahudah to himself as his portion in the Holy Land, and He will choose Jerusalem once more. Zech. 2: 16 JPS

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...Notice how Zechariah has Yahudah using holy vessels, as discrete from the city of Jerusalem in Zech. 14: 21. Why would a tribe of Israel need to use holy vessels as do the priests? But when YaHudaH claims the JEWish people as his own, they need this change. Have you noticed how this tribe gives birth to their own brethren, as does YHWH {the Eloheem} just 26 verses sooner in the book of Isaiah? {compare Isa. 46: 3, 4 to Isa. 48: 1} There is no other people that can claim the link between the Name of YHWH and the Name of YaHudaH.

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27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Nu. 6: 27

{compare to}

1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith YHWH of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Mal. 2: 1, 2

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...The linking of Names is a condition of blessing.

...Judaism is the only faith to honor the chag of the tanakh, as a part of their faith. What other people claim these chag as festivals or holidays? What other people carry out the "brit" as a religious ritual, to hold their people together as a family. "JEW" is more of an english word now, even if the Romans framed it 2000 years ago. But the German people also have their own way of saying "JEW". They say "das Juden". There are ways to refer to the JEWish people in all languages. Names twist about as the river of language runs its course. But we are not talking about words and Names alone. The family of YaHudee is a specific people {the term family is appropriate} no matter what they are called. Judiasm is the faith that the JEWish people themselves created. They as well wrote the book. Is there an obligation for the author's of the tanakh, to name a faith for their literary effort? Is there another people who can claim authorship of the words of the tanakh? The chinese sure didn't write it. Have you got a problem with the JEWish people claiming the name of "YaHudaH"? There is a traceable movement of JEWish people, when you look at JEWish migration throughout history. The JEWish people are not really buddists, moslems or christians in disguise.

...An Eloheem that is presented as a Mother who gives birth, a father and a husband to his people, is a family Eloheem. Birth itself is family. {see Isa. 46: 3, 4}

....Michael

**truth** · 03-08-2003, 04:38 AM

don't let your RELIGION Blind you!

Yahudah by theft!

You see that is what worries me.

You, yourself admit there is no such thing as a Jewish Race of Flesh and Blood.

Here we have a multitude of Races (that’s different Families) that are Jewish simply because of their Religion (which you admit they created themselves).

There is something WRONG here!

There is no such thing as “Judaism” found anywhere in the scripture whether it be the word or concept!

It certainly was not the Faith of Moshe!

By your own words you admit there is no such thing as the word Jew either found there .

(Do you really believe that Moshe was a JEW?)

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The Name Yahuwdah or Yahudah meams “Let YHWH be praised”. The fact of Yahuwdah’s name being theophoric ( as most Hebrew names are) i.e. containing the Name YHWH. You won’t find that to be the case for the word/term /name “JEW”.

The word “Juda” derives from the Greek “Iudaios”/Judaios which is none other than a Greek deity.

(White’s Latin Dictionary)

Say this: Judaeus ….a jew

And I quote you:

“the German people also have their own way of saying "JEW". They say "das Juden".

...The linking of Names is a condition of blessing.”

Or even a curse ....Michael !

Think about it have you read the book of JUDE lately ?

I am sure all our Christian friends have.

You as well as I know that there is no “J” in any language until a couple of hundred years ago.
So I guess that must mean that you are really just another “IEW”. (Just kidding, but you see what I mean)

Over the years I have come to realize that all names have a certain meaning and I also have come to realize that a Name game has been played out over the centuries ,by certain religious organization. (Iam sure you know what I am referring to) In transliterating neither the meaning or the Name itself ever changes.

Can you take Yahudah and get Jew out of it?

Certainly NOT!

Shalom

**truth** · 03-08-2003, 07:11 PM

Come to think of it Can a Non Hebrew,Non Semitic be of the Tribe of Yahuwdah (in this regard namely a JEW) ?

**Thummim** · 03-09-2003, 08:52 AM

We exist as both JEWs, and as Yahudee.

...Don writes,

There is no such thing as “Judaism” found anywhere in the scripture whether it be the word or concept.

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...Neither is there a Name for our own faith to be found anywhere within the tanakh. That leaves the Naming of our own faith open to us {JEWs}. What do you think that we would like to call our faith, in the light of this understanding? Can a parent Name it's own child?

...How about, we name our faith Judaism?

...What is this attitude of yours? Have you got something against the JEWish faith? There is no faith in this world, that more closely follows the faith of Moses. Since there is no longer a priesthood of Aaron, or a temple, {or a king sitting on David's throne}, Judaism becomes the faith of all JEWs who refuse to practice the other faiths. Listen, the tanakh is ours to interpret. We wrote it and signed our name to it, in the naming of our own Eloheem. All other faiths claiming our book, are counterfit faiths. Name a faith that you think more closely follows the torah. There is none! The JEWish peiople have been keeping themselves JEWish and separate from this worlds other peoples with our own customs. YaHudaH is our own Name. Their is no other people called YaHudee in this world. Stop trying to say that our Name is not Yahudee, or that YaHudee is not JEWish. There is no replacement people for us. We have no competitors to replace us.

...If the tribe of YaHudaH can give birth to all of our own brethren, {Isa. 48: 1} then Moses is also a JEW.

{"Ju"dah --> YaHudaH --> YaHudee (the "JEWs")} It is simple enough for most people to understand, "Don"ald.

...Don, you should try a scriptural argument every once in a while. Where does it say in the tanakh, "thou shalt not call thy faith Judaism"?

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48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to YHWH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. Ex. 12: 48, 49

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22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am YHWH your Eloheem. Lev. 24: 22

15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before YHWH.

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16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you. Nu. 15: 15, 16

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....Michael

Announcement

Are the Jews Racist or is it just their religion?

Are the Jews Racist or is it just their religion?

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