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Messiah will rise

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  • Messiah will rise


    Genesis 37:5-10
    5 Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6 He said to them, "Listen to this dream I had: 7 We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it."
    8 His brothers said to him, "Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?" And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.
    In this dream of Joseph’s, which was eventually fulfilled, the sheaves are representative of persons. Let’s see another example in which sheaves represent people:

    Leviticus 23:9-11
    9 The LORD said to Moses, 10 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. 11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.’”
    Messiah is the firstfruit of the resurrection; the first sheaf of the coming harvest. Waving the sheaf before YHWH is representative of His ascension to His Father’s house- the true tabernacle.

    The Sower came first sowing in tears, but He will return to reap with songs of joy…

    Psalm 126:5,6
    5 Those who sow in tears
    will reap with songs of joy.
    6 He who goes out weeping,
    carrying seed to sow,
    will return with songs of joy,
    carrying sheaves with him.
    Lord, please carry me home...
    Last edited by Matthew23; 02-08-2003, 08:21 PM.

  • #2
    Messiah a firstfruit?

    ...Matt writes;

    Messiah is the firstfruit of the resurrection; the first sheaf of the coming harvest.


    ...Where does it say this in the tanakh? Is there a supportable argument for this to build from, or is it strickly NT? The tanakh only has a few resurection verses of text within it that do not require a great stretch of {spiritual} interpretation. Adding one to "firstfruits" seems unlikely. {Isaiah 26, 18 - 19 and Danial 12: 1 are the only resurrection texts that come to mind right now, though I may think of another later.}



    • #3
      What's wrong with spiritual interpretation?


      • #4
        Spiritual interpretation?

        ...Matt, have you ever noticed how many interpretations can arrive from those claiming to be of the same spirit? This suggests that the spirit in charge is stretching its words to fit his own desired conclusions. To keep to the truth, it is best not to invent new conclusions that an author does not intend. Following these inventions can only lead us away from what the author wants us to understand. It seems to fit the "seeing the forest through the trees scenario". When the forest is our own invention, all trees look like we want them to. That's why we should add as few words to those of the author, as we can. The "firstfruits of the resurrection" is the forest here that's blocking the trees. No author of the tanakh said this. I maintain that it is an invention of a creative spirit, unless you can prove different to me.



        • #5

          That's fair enough, but let me ask you: What do you believe is the signifigance of the sheaf of first fruits? Why were they required to wave it before YHWH? What is the signifigance in removing all leaven from one's home during the seven days, etc...? We (New Testament believers) believe that Messiah is pictured in various places throughout the Tanakh, and the sheaf of first fruits is one of the beautiful pictures of His resurrection. So without this spiritual interpretation, the sheaf doesn't seem to mean much...



          • #6
            Looking at clouds and reading text.

            ...Matt, It is easy to see anything that one wants to see, in the clouds. One is apt to see something dear to him in looking for familiar shapes. A christian is apt to see christian images. The face of "Jesus" is one of the favorite images of christians. But who knows what the face of "Jesus" really looks like? Are they sure that it isn't the face of Moses? Perhaps it is even something even more cherished, if one looks long enough at the fluff. The words of the tanakh are like the clouds of heaven. They also project the fluff needed by the faithful, to see images. I, in the many words of the tanakh, see different things than you. Our eyes see through the the things that we already believe to be true. To a christian, everthing foreshadows some aspect of "Jesus". To a JEW, it might be Moses {or perhaps it's just a cloud}. We all have to look out for the images that we are likely to see, and discount a few of them since we already know that were looking for what we want to see, and that we are likely to see what we are looking for. This reality is hard for even me to deal with. I see Hashem in all my clouds. Everything is a shadow of GD's Name.

            ...The sheaves that we read of in the tanakh are sheaves of grain. They are for the threashing floor to feed the people. Joseph sheaf of wheat, being paid obiesance to by his brothers sheaves, are an image fulfilled by Joseph in Egypt. Saying that there is a second fulfillment due this dream, is adding to the author's story. We can both surmise as many "fullfilments" of this dream, as fits our imaginations. But the one to be counted upon is the one that is accounted for in the author's own story.

            ...The notion of forbidden leaven may be a picture of a defiling of YHWH's Name, by substance and deeds brought in from outside of the covenant that YHWH makes with his people. It may be an extention of the idea of a jealous Name.

            ...When Abraham made his covenant according to the instructions of YHWH, he did it with the carcases of the animals used in the Levitical priesthood. The blood of this covenant {of animals} is mirrored in the priests invoking of their covenant with the blood of animals. But the blood is in reference to the blood that is spilt in circumcision. This is what the blood was that withstood the killing of the firstborn in Egypt. It says, "these people are covenanted to me".

            ...To me, all of the tanakh is about filling GD's image with his Name. It is about YHWH having his own Mishpacha. He has taken a people for himself, to be his own. They bear his Name just like a wife bears the Name of her husband, or the children bear the Name of their father. This covenant is not about ending sin, but rather it is about family {mispacha}. In the Name of YHWH, everlasting righteousness is realized.

            ...A christian understanding of the tanakh would lead to a different conclusion, which would have to include all christians, JEWish or not.

            ...So we all see in the clouds what we want to see.

            ...Thus, Baruch Hashem!



            • #7
              Spiritual interpretation

              Hi thummim

              I agree with you- many claiming to have the same spirit have many different interpretations. It obviously shows that they do not have the same spirit.

              For people to have the same interpretatin and same spirit would be an awesome thing to see and witness. I have witnessed this, and it takes dedication to pleading with hashem and constantly reading scripture to understand.

              I believe that Spying and I do have the same spirit. Who knows what we disagree on right now. However, i am sure the things that we do disagree on are things we are not sure about ourselves and we dont hold them to be HAEMES Hashem, just us seeking answers.
              However, the things we do agree on, we know to be the truth.
              And it isn't the "basic" , and "simple" things I am speaking of. I am speaking of things I have found out in the past few months even weeks and days that I realize by studying scripture.

              So no doubt! Down with baptists, pentacostals, jehovahs witnesses, orthodox left and right, chassids, chabbads, conservative, reform, sunni, shi'a, etc.
              these are all of different spirits causing confusion(babylon). And i will not be one with man and work with him to create another magdala, I will work with hashem- which will fish men.
              ONE TORAH [MEMRA(audible) and KHOCHMA(written)], ONE MASORAH.

              OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)


              • #8
                From many directions to a single point.

                ...Yes beseder, and I'll help you work with hashem, even though our spirits only meet on every other idea that we have. No matter which direction we are traveling, if we all follow one Name we must all end up in the same place sooner or later. Its like trying to get to a star from many different directions.



                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thummim
                  ...The sheaves that we read of in the tanakh are sheaves of grain. They are for the threashing floor to feed the people. Joseph sheaf of wheat, being paid obiesance to by his brothers sheaves, are an image fulfilled by Joseph in Egypt. Saying that there is a second fulfillment due this dream, is adding to the author's story. We can both surmise as many "fullfilments" of this dream, as fits our imaginations. But the one to be counted upon is the one that is accounted for in the author's own story.
                  I'm sorry. I wasn't clear on what I was trying to say about that. What I meant was... In the dream Joseph had, the sheaves represent people. Likewise they represent a person in the Sheaf of Firstfruits.

                  with love,

                  p.s. pardon my ignorance- does Baruch Hashem mean "Praise the Name"?


                  • #10
                    Messiah will rise

                    PART TWO

                    Isaiah 52:13-53:12
                    The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
                    13 See, my servant will act wisely;
                    he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
                    14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him-
                    his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
                    and his form marred beyond human likeness-
                    15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
                    and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
                    For what they were not told, they will see,
                    and what they have not heard, they will understand.

                    1 Who has believed our message
                    and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
                    2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
                    and like a root out of dry ground.
                    He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
                    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
                    3 He was despised and rejected by men,
                    a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
                    Like one from whom men hide their faces
                    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

                    4 Surely he took up our infirmities
                    and carried our sorrows,
                    yet we considered him stricken by God,
                    smitten by him, and afflicted.
                    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
                    he was crushed for our iniquities;
                    the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
                    and by his wounds we are healed.
                    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
                    each of us has turned to his own way;
                    and the LORD has laid on him
                    the iniquity of us all.

                    7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
                    yet he did not open his mouth;
                    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
                    and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
                    so he did not open his mouth.
                    8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
                    And who can speak of his descendants?
                    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
                    for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
                    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
                    and with the rich in his death,
                    though he had done no violence,
                    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

                    10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
                    and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
                    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
                    and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
                    11 After the suffering of his soul,
                    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
                    by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
                    and he will bear their iniquities.
                    12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
                    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
                    because he poured out his life unto death,
                    and was numbered with the transgressors.
                    For he bore the sin of many,
                    and made intercession for the transgressors.

                    Isaiah 6:1
                    ...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted...

                    Not only do I believe that Messiah has risen from the dead...

                    I also believe...

                    He is God!

                    with love,


                    • #11
                      Baruch Hashem

                      ...Matt, it means bless the Name. The Name is the central pillar that the faith of the JEWish people rests upon. YHWH is uniquely worshipped through his Name. A name can be linked to a people in a way that no object can be. Verse five of Isaiah 53 requires that this servant brings his people peace and verse 11 requires that he make his people righteous. The first verse of Isa. 54 has the people returning to their land to reoccupy it. Verse 11 of Isa. 52 has the people leaving for Jerusalem with the holy vessels in hand.