Announcement

**Thummim** · 01-16-2003, 06:01 PM

YaHudaH, the house of David, a house built upon a rock.

For thy name sake.

11 For thy name's sake, O YHWH, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.

12 What man is he that feareth YHWH? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

14 The secret of YHWH is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

15 Mine eyes are ever toward YHWH; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net. Ps. 25: 11 - 15

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8 O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.

9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. Ps. 79: 8, 9

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20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from YHWH, and of them that speak evil against my soul.

21 But do thou for me, O Adonai Elohenu, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me. Ps. 109: 20, 21

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11 Quicken me, O YHWH, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble. Ps. 143: 11

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9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Isa. 48: 9 - 11

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5 Hear the word of YHWH, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let YHWH be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. Isa. 66: 5

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6 Blessed be YHWH, who hath not given us as a prey to their teeth.

7 Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.

8 [B]Our help is in the name of YHWH[B], who made heaven and earth. Ps. 124: 6 - 8

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10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, YHWH, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. Ps. 9: 10

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11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. Ps. 5: 11

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1 O YHWH our Adonai, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Ps. 8: 1

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8 In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah. Ps. 44: 8

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4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah. Ps. 66: 4

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5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of YHWH Elohenu for ever and ever. Mi. 4: 5

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1 YHWH hear thee in the day of trouble; The Name of the GD of Jacob defend thee; Ps. 20: 1

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...Sinless, or righteous? That which rests upon the Name of GD is righteous. But even Moses sinned against his Eloheem.

....Michael

**israelthebride** · 01-16-2003, 08:54 PM

TRUTH is HIS WORD/LAW

FAITH is accepting that “YH’SHWH’s TRUTH” is true whether I believe it or not.

BELIEF is adjusting my whole life to “YH’SHWH’s TRUTH” and LIVING that LIFE by submitting to YH’SHWH’s HOLY SPIRIT.
_______

Thank YOU, MICHAEL,

For comforting me with HIS WORD/LAW.

YOU are a FRIEND.

LOVE, RICOEL

**Spying** · 01-17-2003, 08:13 AM

The Certainty Of Faith!

Hi Israelthebride,

Our father, Abraham, shows forth to us both faith and belief:

Gen 15:3-6
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of YAHWEH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in YAHWEH; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (KJV)

This belief in YAHWEH is not based upon any certain knowledge. It is not based upon any evidence save for the stars of the heaven and Abram's past relationship with YAHWEH.

Then YAHWEH tells Abram:

Gen 15:7-8
7 And he (YAHWEH) said unto him, I am YAHWEH that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he (Abram) said, ADONAI ELOHIM, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? (KJV)

Has Abram just thrown belief out the window? Belief is not enough for Abram at this point. Abram now wants to know just exactly how YAHWEH is going to work out his inheritance. YAHWEH complies to give Abram this knowledge, and then YAHWEH says to Abram:

Gen 15:13
13 And he (YAHWEH) said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; (KJV)

In the LXX, this phrase "know of a surety" is translated as "knowing, know". The implication of these words is this: Abram, you wanted to know, now you know!

I am fairly certain in my mind that the author of the book of Hebrews had the above incident in mind when he wrote this about faith:

Heb 11:1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)

YAHWEH ELOHIM gave Abram faith when HE supplied Abram with the substance and the evidence. So, faith is a seeing without really seeing anything tangible. Faith is a way of looking at and seeing something happen before it actually happens.

These words of Messiah are based upon the faith of Messiah:

Luke 18:31-34
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. (KJV)

When Messiah spoke the above words, his disciples had no faith. They had no faith because they could not look into the scriptures and see and know the things as did Messiah. Do you see this, Thummim?

I wonder if we can understand this saying of Messiah with faith?:

John 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (KJV)

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 01-17-2003, 10:28 AM

...Left standing at the waters edge!

Ricoel and Spying, et all;

Luke 18:31-34
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. (KJV)

Spying writes;

When Messiah spoke the above words, his disciples had no faith. They had no faith because they could not look into the scriptures and see and know the things as did Messiah. Do you see this, Thummim?

...The question of faith here, concerns believing that things as "Jesus" sees them, are what the prophets faith was. It's not a smooth ride coming to the same conclusions as does "Jesus". We've covered most of this material before, and found that it takes a great deal of spiritual interpretation to except the faith of "Jesus". We have to conclude that a questionable virgin birth might not lead to a right to claim the throne of David. We have to swallow many breaches in the NT geneologies. We have to come to the conclusion that Isaiah is not writing about his own children, when after all he says that it is his own children who are the examples that he uses in applying names of understanding to the events that he forecasts.

--> 18 Behold, I and the children whom YHWH hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from YHWH of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. Isa. 8: 18

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47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

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6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Jn. 15: 6

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...It seems that these authors should have dug a little deeper before coming to the conclusions that they use as their foundations. Then having so much faith in what they write, wouldn't be needed. The danger of "John 15: 6" in the book of the christians vs {The JEWs}, the term that John uses 65 times in his contrbution to the NT, is in the convincing of his readers that {The JEWs} are the bad guys.

...When you write it as GD's will and convince enough people, the charge against them being something like killing the Messiah or the son of GD, or GD himself in the flesh, then even if these followers, should they choose not to carry out the execution themselves, they might still be convinced enough to turn their heads away and allow "prophetic fulfilment" to take place. But now, we have both concluded that the JEWish people are a righteous people. The salvation of the JEWish people can be found in their Name {Ps. 20: 1, 54: 1, etc.} and in the decree of righteousness that their GD gives them. {Isa. 43, 25, 44: 22, Hag 2: 18, 19} That makes christianity vs. YHWH, a real issue.

...So if the unlearned lead the unlearned, can faith be their downfall? Do both fall into the pit? If christianity is charged by YHWH, for the violation of his Name, will this people then be allowed to cross the Jordon with YHWH's people? Listen to what lesson you are being taught. If you do not sanctify YHWH as GD's Name, the people get the wrong deliverer and are left standing at the rivers edge. It is better to save the few names of the righteous of Sodom, then to walk all christians across the river.

...It's good to be able to pursue the truth together.

....Michael

**Spying** · 01-20-2003, 06:33 AM

Risky Business!

Hi Thummim,

Thank you for your reply. You totally missed my point in my last post. Faith is not a matter of belief. Faith is a matter of knowledge. Faith is based upon evidence. Messiah said in faith (with knowledge):

John 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (KJV)

The Jews by your own admission do not abide in Messiah. They rejected him, and they still do!

Just prior to our births, millions of Jews were gathered and cast into ovens where they were burned. Of course, you make every attempt to blame this happening on Messiah. Messiah did not say that he would burn them, nor did Messiah say that his followers would burn them, but Messiah did say that men would gather them and burn them. Now, the historical record indicates that it would seem to be in your own best interest for you to learn exactly how Messiah knew that this burning would occur, or am I thinking wrongly here? Obviously, you do not abide in Messiah. Do you not see any risk for yourself after having fully witnessed the fate of your fellow Jews? Do you not see any present risk for the Jews who are not now abiding in Messiah?

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 01-20-2003, 11:53 AM

Burned, but not consumed!

The name of YHWH exists in the dark clouds and fire, and it is full of wrath towards his enemies.

...Spying, I am prepared to burn in the oven of christianity, if that must be my end for choosing to be JEWish and rejecting "Jesus". But I will not consume. I have seen the weakness of "Jesus", your mangod. He is a liar and a deciever, and it is easily found out by anybody willing to look for the truth. It all starts with throwing a light switch on and off, and seeing the difference between the light and the darkness. If you can tell the difference between the two, you can learn the truth. The righteous do suffer at the hands of the unrighteous. That is how it has always worked. While the name of YHWH looses a body to the ovens of christianity, the Name itself leaves the ovens to seek retribution. Dark clouds and fire are the form of YHWH, who does not die, but leads his people through the wilderness.

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1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence! Isa. 64: 1, 2

....Michael

**Spying** · 01-20-2003, 02:56 PM

Escaping The Fire

Hi Thumimm,

Why do you call Messiah Yahushua a liar and deceiver when his record about what he said would happen to all those who do not abide in him has been proven totally accurate. Jerusalem was destroyed as Messiah predicted:

Luke 19:41-44
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. (KJV)

You, yourself, preach smooth words to present day Jerusalem when you have absolutely no call to do so. If the words of Messiah were correct in the first century, and if the words of Messiah were still correct some 50 years ago, why do you think that the present day enemies of the Jews will be less successful in laying the Jews even with the ground? You have no such assurance because all your teaching only fits in the context of when it was written. You have absolutely nothing, no prophecy which comes within centuries of the NT era which holds the promise of any relief for the Jewish people. You have no prophecy which is not already outdated and made meaningless by the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple. All you have since that time is historical experience which cannot be in any manner construed as predictive of a positive experience for Jews and Judaism. If present day Jerusalem is no longer in slavery with all her children, why is it that so many millions of Jews choose to remain in the United States instead of immigrating to free Jerusalem?

The words of Messiah are still as true today as they were two thousand years ago. The Holocaust is a historical record that Messiah spoke truly. They went through the fire, did they not? I am not happy that you also must endure fire, but, at the very least, you have confessed that you will willingly endure such punishment should it come your way. Why do I get the feeling that you don't really believe that it can happen to you and to your brethren again? I know, you do not believe the words of Messiah, right? Even so, know that I did work and am still working that you and your brethren might escape any further suffering due to your stubbornness.

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 01-20-2003, 08:00 PM

What does deception look like?

Luke 19:41-44
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. (KJV)

...We need to examine the above words in the context that they are written. About knowing the time of their visitation, are the people to know at all when their sins are interceeded for? What does the text actually say?

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHWH revealed? {who is the strength of YHWH's arm to deliver, revealed to?}

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. {the people see an afflicted man, not a king on the way to a throne}

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. {this would make "Jesus", by himself, guilty for the sins of his people}

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. {but says enough to write four gospels?}

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isa. 53: 1 - 8

...What does a person who is smitten of GD, look like? Are his people to believe that a person who has offended GD, is also his servant and redeemer? Is he {the rejected servant of GD} to look like a king to his people? Are they to gather around this offender of GD and choose to follow his example? After all, he was wounded for a purpose. Isaiah says that he is wounded so his people will have peace. Some peace he leaves with his people. If he is stricken for the transgression of the author's people, there must be some reason behind it. Has this mans suffering remitted any of his peoples debt to their GD, for having offended him? Though he is to be unesteemed by the JEWish people, isn't he supposed to accomplish something? Lets see what he accomplishes for his people. Does he end their warfare? Matthew thinks that he is supposed too, as indicated in Mat. 3:3. But we both know that Matthew is off by five hundred years. The ending of warfare isn't the ending of warfare at all. That belongs to a deliverer.

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9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa. 53: 9 - 12

...It says that it pleased YHWH to bruise him. Didn't it also please YHWH that his people would think him an offender of GD? But "Jesus" isn't happy being seen as an offender of YHWH. So is YHWH now a co offender of "Jesus" as well as are his people? It seems that "Jesus" is united against YHWH as well as YaHudaH, the people of Jerusalem. It says that the righteous servant makes the many {tzadek --> righteous} If so, why does "Jesus" pronounce the destruction of Jerusalem? What has the end of warfare to do with the destruction of Jerusalem? By his knowledge, "Jesus" is to make this people righteous. {tzedek again} So now that "Jesus has made them righteous, YHWH will destroy Jerusalem?

...When a man who pronounces destruction on a peoples, and then implies that he is their deliverer, he is lying. There is a differance between light and darkness, and between life and death. This is why I wanted you to practice with the light switch. The intercessor, interceeds. The deliverer, delivers. The peace maker, makes peace. But lyars lie. The lie isn't that Jerusalem will be destroyed. It is that "Jesus" is the deliverer and redeemer. He does no such thing. "Jesus" is a man of crowds. He intertains thousands, while claiming to be rejected by them. You couldn't pick a deciever out of a crowd, Spying. You are to gullible. The messiah is a good thing for the JEWish people. But "Jesus" isn't. Your man points the way to their slaughter.

...Don't discount that millions of JEWs have immigrated to Israel. The reason that "Jesus" got the holocaust right, is that he created it. The reason that he fortold the destruction of Jerusalem, is that he knew that he wasn't the promised deliverer.

....Michael

**Spying** · 01-21-2003, 07:52 AM

Nothing Changes Without Change!

Hi Thummim,

If we continue the same course of action, why should we expect a different result? We reap what we sow. If we sow violence, we reap violence. If we murder the innocent, we will be murdered. The Jewish people have developed a history. They have a record as being racists. The State of Israel makes clear that record today! The Jewish people trust in their racism so they do not worry about shedding innocent blood. Judah didn't worry about shedding the innocent blood of Joseph:

Gen 42:21-22
21 And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us.
22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required. (KJV)

And Judah did not worry about shedding the innocent blood of Messiah Yahushua:

Matt 27:24-25
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (KJV)

This is what YAHWEH ELOHIM has said:

Gen 9:5-6
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of ELOHIM made he man. (KJV)

YAHWEH ELOHIM is not a liar. This is what HE has said:

Matt 23:33-39
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of YAHWEH. (KJV)

Now, you can discount these words. You can argue against these words. You can ignore these words, but what does your history teach you? Deep down, the truth of these words burden your soul; otherwise, you would all be in Jerusalem as I have indicated. Is not Jerusalem the capital city of your land of promise? What's the matter? Do you Jews not desire to return home to your land of promise? Every year at Passover, do you not say, "Next year in Jerusalem"?

The words of YAHWEH stand. Nothing will change until you change your words!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 01-21-2003, 10:22 AM

They that are mad against me are sworn against me.

Spying writes;

Judah didn't worry about shedding the innocent blood of Joseph:

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...It was Judah who prevented Joseph from being killed.

26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?

27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.

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...So Judah saved his brothers life. All the other brothers would have killed him. But Judah spoke up to save his brothers life. We read in Isaiah's 53rd chapter that it is the work of messiah to prove the righteousness of Judah. Why do you always stand against the work of messiah? Why do you insist on uncovering Judah's unrighteousness? Why do you constantly kick at his labor?

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11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant {justify --> tzadek, "make righteous"} many; {"my people", who are identified in vs. 8} for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa. 53: 11, 12

...Why do you resist the work of the messiah? Isn't he to make YaHudaH a righteous people by his knowledge? And yet, you kick at his efforts. If you rebuke his work, don't you also rebuke him?

...So the JEWish people have developed a history of murder? It seems to me, that they are the ones who were murdered. You reason like a moslem would. "with permission of your respective books", to curse the righteous. It seems to me that any effort to give a state to the Palestinian people is doomed to failure. How many times have the Israelies negotiated in good faith with the moslems, over this issue? It is still current policy to create a Palestinian state. But it seems that a faction of the moslems thinks that any JEWish presence is unexceptable. Hatred for the Name of the GD of Moses, {YHWH} runs high amongst the Palestinians. When you do not act ingood faith with this Name, you get nothing from it. The Israelies have a right to defend their Name from assault. While you deem this defense of Israel, as an assault upon the Palestinian people, I would do the samething {act in strength against the enemies of my name} if it was America that was assaulted by the moslems. {a real possibility}.

...The words that you use from your book {the NT} are without any authority of GD's Name being ceeded to them, except by those who think it is just to hold all JEWs responcible for the execution of "Jesus". The Romans killed "Jesus". It is the faith of christianity, to deem righteous the holocaust. {the burning of those who will not bow to the mangod of their faiths, Jn. 15: 6} You just have done so, appointing it the will of YHWH. GD damn christianity! May their judgement fall upon their own heads. May they go down into the pit that they dug for the JEWish people.

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1 A Psalm of David.

Plead my cause, O YHWH, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

2 Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.

3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.

4 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.

5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of YHWH chase them.

6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of YHWH persecute them.

7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul.

8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.

9 And my soul shall be joyful in YHWH: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

10 All my bones shall say, YHWH, who is like unto thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him?

11 False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.

12 They rewarded me evil for good to the spoiling of my soul. Ps. 35: 1 - 12

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3 For my days are consumed like smoke, and my bones are burned as an hearth. {fire and dark clouds from the oven?}

4 My heart is smitten, and withered like grass; so that I forget to eat my bread.

5 By reason of the voice of my groaning my bones cleave to my skin.

6 I am like a pelican of the wilderness: I am like an owl of the desert.

7 I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top.

8 Mine enemies reproach me all the day; and they that are mad against me are sworn against me.

9 For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping,

10 Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down.

11 My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass. Ps. 102: 3 - 11

....Michael

**Spying** · 01-22-2003, 07:12 AM

Innocent Blood!

Hi Thummim,

Messiah did make all Jews righteous. Allow me to tell it to you again. Through Messiah:

Sin=righteousness!

You can twist the above statement. You can turn it any way you desire in your hand. You can throw it away. It does not change anything. Through Messiah and HIS work, sin becomes righteousness.

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Sin is also the fulfillment of the Law when Messiah enters the picture. Through the sacrifice of Messiah our sins become righteousness because we have thereby fulfilled what the Law required of us concerning sacrifice. We have righteousness through sin. This righteousness exists by the grace of ELOHIM. This is the gift of righteousness which YAHWEH ELOHIM has provided for us through Messiah, and it is the righteousness that Isaiah writes about.

Messiah was sinless. He did not die because of HIS own sin. Messiah was innocent!

Messiah died because Judah wanted him dead. Judah was concerned about profit in the matter with his brother Joseph, and Judah was concerned about profit in the matter concerning Yahushua, only with Messiah there was no profit in keeping Messiah alive. The profit came through his death, and this profit is actually totally different than what Judah did assume:

John 11:47-52
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. (Levi and Judah did not deny the mighty works of Yahushua)
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. (maintaining the status quo was their motivation and profit)
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. (Judah accepted the advice of Levi and was willing to allow an innocent man to die in order to profit themselves. Did Judah learn nothing from the incident with Joseph?)
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Yahushua should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of ELOHIM that were scattered abroad. (KJV)

John 18:14
14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. (KJV)

Judah assumed that ELOHIM would protect them from the Romans if Messiah died, but ELOHIM is extremely concerned about the shedding of innocent blood:

Num 35:33-34
33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
34 Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I YAHWEH dwell among the children of Israel. (KJV)

If Messiah was guilty and not innocent, then why did ELOHIM cleanse the Land of the Jews through the hand of the Romans?

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 01-22-2003, 11:21 AM

Without "Jesus"!

Spying posts;

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Sin is also the fulfillment of the Law when Messiah enters the picture. Through the sacrifice of Messiah our sins become righteousness because we have thereby fulfilled what the Law required of us concerning sacrifice.

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...You give to much to sin. Saying that sin is righteousness, is saying that darkness is light. You are not learning the lesson that I want you to learn from throwing a light switch. One is darkness, and the other is light! The light helps you to see through the sin {darkness} that one must overcome. The law is not fulfilled, but kept. There is no offering for unintentional sin. But there is the grace of YHWH. He forgives sin without sacrifice.

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But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, {deliberately} whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Nu. 15: 30

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...There is no offering for deliberate sin. But YHWH can forget and forgive without sacrifice.

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Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps. 40: 6

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For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Ps. 51: 16, 17

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For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos. 6: 6

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Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mi. 6: 6 - 8

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...Now see how YHWH forgives the sin of his people without offerings or sacrifices.

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I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa. 44: 22

--> Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. Mi. 7: 18, 19

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...Its not that difficult to understand.

5 And YHWH descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of YHWH.

6 And YHWH passed by before him, and proclaimed, YHWH {YaHudaH according to Deut. 12: 5, without its fourth letter, YHWH Elohenu, {the Name of EL and the signature of GD upon the kethubah}, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, --> forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, {without sacrifice} and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Ex. 34: 5 - 7

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...YHWH forgives his peoples transgressions many times without the help of "Jesus". Christianities attempt to own the gates of heaven through the sacrifice of "Jesus", fails in the light of the truth. There is no need for sacrifice or offerings in the case of intentional sin. They would help nothing!

Spying writes;

Messiah died because Judah wanted him dead.

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...Judah was also the thousands of JEWs who followed "Jesus" about and even tried to make him a king twice. Most JEWs never heard of "Jesus" at all. Judah was a people who lived in many different lands, at that time that "Jesus" lived. The JEWs that knew "Jesus" didn't want "Jesus" dead, they wanted to be delivered from the Romans by him as they had heard from their texts, would be the deeds that would follow their messiah. "Jesus", who is not rejected by the JEWs, is a man of multitudes. He is almost never alone. He surely isn't rejected by his people during his lifetime. They didn't crucify him. They were crucified with him, by the Romans. "Jesus" could not do the peace thing for his people, as the text of Isaiah 53 said that he would. It was the Romans, and not YHWH, who distroyed Jerusalem. But there has always been a JEWish prescence in the land of Israel since that time. The Romans did not clear the land of all JEWs. You need to do a little more research on this.

...You quote NT verse at the JEWish people, like rocks tossed at them to hurt them. But you call them righteous? These words {of the NT} were written by disgruntled christians over seventy years after the fact. We know what christians think of JEWs, by the words that christians used against them. No doubt, JEWs thought of christians as blasphemers and betrayers of their fathers faith, which they were. That disclusion from righteousness, no doubt made the christians very angry at the JEWish people. At the time that the NT verses were written, JEWs were generally excepted by the masses. But christians were not well thought of at all. So a christian would write something like what we read in John 15: 6 and Mat 27: 25, in defense of their faith.

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Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mat. 27: 25, --> written by those who were not present at this gathering.

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If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15: 6, --> written by a man who also pointed his finger at {the JEWs}, sixty five times. He obviously didn't think of himself as a JEW.

Spying writes;

If Messiah was guilty and not innocent, then why did ELOHIM cleanse the Land of the Jews through the hand of the Romans?

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...Was this the hand of an Eloheem in posession of his Name? The true messiah would refer you to a few verses of the psalms, that would tell you that his people would be delivered through his Name alone.

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YHWH hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee; Ps. 20: 1

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Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me by thy strength. Ps. 54: 1

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Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.

Our help is in the name of YHWH, who made heaven and earth. Ps. 124: 7, 8

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All nations compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH will I destroy them.

They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH I will destroy them.

They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of YHWH I will destroy them. Ps. 118: 10 - 12

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...A warrior can set armies in flight, solely upon his reputation. He lifts his sword, and they flee in terror. But the same warrior without a weapon to fight with, comands little respect.

1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence! Isa. 64: 1, 2

6 Therefore my people shall "know" {"learn", *JPS*} my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. Isa. 52: 6, {I suspect strongly that YHWH will come in the glory of his Name, and not without it.}

....Michael

**DeAnna** · 01-23-2003, 07:22 AM

Shalom Everyone,
May the power and authority,
of all that exists,
Be with you.

The Word > "NAME"

Hebrew: "Shem" (sh,m ) H8034 shem {shame} ¤ a primitive word from 07760 ¤ 1) name 1a) name 1b) reputation, fame, glory 1c) the Name (as designation of God) 1d) memorial, monument

07760 suwm {soom} ¤
a primitive root; 1) to put, place, set, appoint, make (Qal) to set, direct, direct toward, to extend (compassion) (fig), to set, ordain, establish, found, appoint, constitute, make, determine, fix, to set, station, put, set in place, plant, fix, to make, make for, transform into, constitute, fashion, work, bring to pass, appoint, give

"Name" in Greek:

G3686 onoma {on'-om-ah} ¤ from a presumed derivative of the base of 1097 n n ¤ 1) name: univ. of proper names 2) the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.

The word "name" or "shem" originally meant, by "who's power" or "authority" a thing was done.

When Yah says; "By my NAME"...
He is Not talking about speaking a "sound".
He is talking about by HIS AUTHORITY, or HIS POWER.

Acts 4:6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.

7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked,
By what POWER, or by what NAME, have ye done this?

Regardless of what physical sound is coming out of someone's mouth,Do they believe in the ultimate power and authority of the creator?
Or do they believe that their salvation is "up to them"?

Do they believe in their own > > power/authority/ability/will... to >

"Cleanse themselves"?
"Make themselves walk > upright?"
"Become a "new"... etc?

Or do they believe in the CREATORS > Power/authority/ability/ will > to do these things?

Are they of the mind that "they" do it?
Thereby coming in there "own name"?
Or are they of the mind that their maker does it,
Thereby coming in HIS name?

"YHWH" >
H3068 [email protected] {yeh-ho-vaw'} ¤
from 01961;

¤ Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God

H1961 hy"h' hayah {haw-yaw} ¤ a primitive root v ¤
¤ 1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out (Qal) occur, take place, come about, come to pass, to come about, come to pass, to come into being, become, to arise, appear, come, to become , to become like, to be instituted, be established, be in existence, to abide, remain, continue to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated, to accompany, be with (Niphal) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about, to be done, be finished

"Yahshua" means "Yahs salvation".
Yahs salvation is His WORD.
"His Word, brings all things into existance!
"Nothing was made, that wasn't made…
By HIM." Yahs "Word" is His "First Born", He Speaks it, "Commands it", Utters it, and thus it is so. It comes forth from HIM.

He said; "Let there be light. And there was light".

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

When Yah speaks / gives His "Word", His "first BORN" >
"Let there be light" …
Into Us… We have been given a "son". Or that which came
Forth from Yah. (not us, WE were "darkness" we were the "face" of the deep… dark. We were not the "deep", but the "face" of it.

"And the government (authority) is upon > HIS <
(The word that came forth, the son… the ; "Let there be light",) < upon HIS shoulders, or His "doing", bearing the load. The darkness is not bearing the load to bring forth, the "Light" is!

"What, shal I bring to the Birth...?"

(shall I go in unto you, and give you my word)

"and not give strenth to bring forth?"

"The Word was the light of men. That lighteth every man
that is born into the "earth" (John 1)

(That which Yah shapes and forms. Which is why He said;
"let there be light", because he is shaping
And forming a thing, us… the "earth".)

"And the darkness (us) comprehendeth it not". (we didn't understand what the Light meant. What it was, we are
like the fathers who ate the manna saying; "what is it"?

"But as many as those who receive The Word, (the son, the light, the "Truth", which is light) Gave HE (He GAVE!) "Power" to BECOME "sons" (become light/His Word!).

It is by HIS Authority, HIS Power, His Doing, His NAME,
All Him. It is NOT the "darknesses DOING" at all.
We don't inherit the land due to OUR "righteousness" or "light" or Truth or power, or might, or ANYTHING… other then, If we "Receive" YAHS WORD/DOING/FULFILLMENT ETC.

"…and his NAME (authority/power/ what HE establishes)
shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

:7 Of the INCREASE of his government (AUTHROITY) and peace (WELLNESS/REST) there shall be NO END, upon the THRONE ("seat" of Authority, his "position" ) < of > DAVID and upon his kingdom(all who stand with him), to order (COMMAND) it, and to ESTABLISH it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YHWH of hosts will perform this."

Now read it again if you have too, but this is not "David" himself doing this, but it is through davids throne.
For it is "Written", that David was >
"PUT here to BE OUR WITNESS and our LEADER"!

He is our "human" witness... what WE should be doing.

Yahshua... The Word...
Is YAHS WITNESS...
AND TESTIFIES...TO HIM... AT ALL TIMES!

And the Works of HIS hands only!

Not ours! But He pricks our heart, because THAT is what
He is shaping.

David "turned" unto Yah ALL THE TIME. Over everything.
Who else has a book of Psalms (Prayers/ songs unto Yah)?

We need to return unto the house (faith) of David
And follow His LEAD!

"O' Yah, keep far from me a lying tongue"

(you know, when Yah starts taking away a lying tongue,
it seems to me, our "actions" change when we stop lying
about them. But it is YAHS DOING, Not ours, WE ask.
It is GIVEN to those who ASK!
ASK, and ye shall receive!)

As we follow Davids lead...

"O'Yah, Enlarge my Heart, that I may "follow" after
THY commands" (words).

"O' Yah, I will follow AFTER thy Commands, after THOU
hast enlarged my heart."

"…Create in me a pure heart"… "keep far from me a covetous
heart"… "…forsake not the works of thine own hands"
"Create in me a pure heart"… "I will put my trust in Yah".
"He will stay my hand". "He will pull me out of the pit, he will not leave my soul in Hell."

"O' Yah keep far from me a thieving hand."

Everytime we pat ourselves on the back for any
Good or "light" that we bring forth. We steal from Yah.
We tell eachother, "if I can do it, YOU can DO it".

HELLO! Who did it? Who establishes it, who brings it forth?

>> "The ZEAL (PASSION) of YHWH (He who establishes)
of hosts (all armies/powers/pricipalities) will perform this. (!) <

That passion, What HE DOES, will "Perform This"!

Thummin, Yahshua did not open His mouth while being taken
To be crucified. He spoke not a word until spoken too, by one
Hanging up there with him. And even then, he spoke not to the First one that spake to him, but to the 2nd.

Yahs salvation, Yahs "word", His Truth, does not "defend" itself, it has no need. It defends us.

And so many of us, take what defends us, and use it to accuse,
And become swine because we did not think a thing through,
And seek Yah, and ask, what is this teaching me of Him.
"what is it"? That I may follow.

If we take Yahs laws and with this light, see the iniquity of man,
We are not looking at Yah, The spirit. We are looking at man,
The flesh.

"The invisible things of HIM (Yah) are CLEARLY "seen",
and UNDERSTOOD… by what is made."

Does not nature itself testify to a DEATH (sin)
BURRIAL (remission) and RESURRECTION,
Throughout creation, over and over and over?

And does the "credit" of this AWESOMNESS go
To the images thereof? Or is it TRULY the WORKS
Of YAHS HANDS?

And does not the rose garden come back fuller,
And more beautiful then the year before?
Unless it receives no water or light. (Works from Yah!)

And this will happen if we fail to offer the FIRST Fruits
(ultimate authority; where it came from) unto YAH.
And if we fail to give the "land" (us) and keep the sabbaths,
To give the land rest (in Yah; keeping him in remembrance
That this is still HIS work!)

Well, This is so long. Okay, I'll stop. (smile)
It's just that... if we don't return unto the faith of
David, then how are we to receive the covenant of David,
the mercies of David? And it is through this branch,
that Yahs salvation comes.

May Yah bless,
Love,
D'

**israelthebride** · 01-23-2003, 10:45 AM

NAME

Ms, D,

Your descriptions and definitions are beautiful, except for one name you used.

Even phonetically (the way we write out Hebrew and Greek), this name has no meaning:

"jehovah"
_______

The name "jesus", again, even phonetically, it has no meaning.
_______

NAME and WORD are HIS POWER that HE gives to US, through HIS SPIRIT in US.

Let US be careful in what NAME and WORD, WE use.

WE must speak as HE would.

WE are HIS BODY.

LOVE, RICOEL

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