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**hyssop** · 01-13-2001, 04:04 PM

Very Nice

Yahnathan,

I think that the site is great! (You might want to spell check the "whoweare" page)

I really, really liked the articles: The True Sabbath Day, Saturday, and Sunday by Max W. Mader.

The only disagreement that I have (and it is a big one) is with your view of Yahushua's purpose:

The Sacrifice of Yahushua:

We believe Yahweh so loved this world of sinners that he gave his only begotten Son, who, though in all points tempted as we are, lived without sin in the human flesh. That Son, Yahushua Messiah, died as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity. His life, because He is the Creator of all humanity, is of greater value than the sum total of all human life. His death is, therefore, sufficient to pay the penalty for every human being's sins. In paying this penalty He has made it possible, according to Yahweh's plan, for each person and humanity as a whole to have their sins forgiven and to be released from the death penalty.

Your group recognizes how Satan has deceived the world into thinking that Yahweh's Sabbath has been changed or done away. However, you have not yet seen how Satan has also convinced the multitudes that Yahweh would sacrifice His only good child "in the stead of" His unrighteous children. I sense that you and the children of Yahweh can see that Yahweh's physical creation and physical laws give us insight into the spiritual realm. If so, then ask yourself, "What earthly father would punish his only innocent child in order to be able to forgive his wicked children?"

**Yahnathan** · 01-13-2001, 04:13 PM

I guess I am confused now. Did not Messiah Yahushua die in order that our sins might be forgiven ? I never said the Father punished his Son. I firmly believe Yahushua chose to to suffer for us. Do you accept that Messiah Yahushua came in the human flesh ? Do you deny that he suffered and as a result his death can take the place of our penilty for sin if we will have faith in him and turn in repentance and obey the commandments ? As I said I am confused please clarify.

With Love in the Service of Messiah Yahushua,

**hyssop** · 01-13-2001, 05:03 PM

If you do not believe that the Father punished his Son, who did? The Romans? The Jews? Satan? You? Me? Someone else?

What, exactly, do you mean when you say, "his death can take the place of our penalty for sin"? How does this substitutional death work? To whom is this penalty paid?

Okay, let me reword my previous example:
"Assuming that the innocent child requests (voluntarily accepts) the punishment, what earthly father would punish his only innocent child in order to forgive his wicked children their wrongdoing?"

**simpleman** · 01-13-2001, 08:24 PM

Shalom,

In order to avoid repeating myself, please take a look at my post on the "Is all Israel saved" thread. I discuss the sacrifice of Yeshua and some of the ways I see it fulfilling different sacrifices. If I may say so myself, it could possibly have at least some truth in it.

Simpleman

**Yahnathan** · 01-14-2001, 07:13 AM

The greatest gift we can give one another is love. Messiah himself said this.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

He loves us enough to die in our place. Am I wrong here ? I can tell you as a Father that if I had a child and even if he was a disobedient child I would gladly die in that childs place.

I would also give you the example of the prodigal son. How the Father lavished honor and gifts on a disobedient child who returned in repentance. Perhaps you think that I am saying all sins are forgiven without repentance. I am not saying that at all. Unless we truly repent and recieve the Spirit of Truth, that alone can teach us how to fulfill the law of love, we can never recieve the fruits of messiah's sacrifice. There is no dought in my mind that messiah died for my sin, in my place. This is why I have turned from sin. I do not wish to continue in sin that grace may abound.

Messiah died so that he might become a curse in our place. The curse was never the law the curse was the penilty of sin which is death. If we accept messiah's sacrifice that he died in our place and repent and recieve the spirit and walk in his rightiousness according to his mercy. Then we shall recieve the gift of eternal life. If we refuse to accept his sacrifice for our past sin we are in trouble.

With Love in the Service of Yahushua,

**Sandy** · 01-14-2001, 10:36 AM

I personally do not know of any Scripture that tells us that YAH will be born of a human woman and become a man known as the messiah (The anointed descendant of king David).

Where are the OT Hebrew Scriptures stating that a messiah will be raised up as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind?

There are Scriptures stating that YAH will raise up a man from the line of David to be king over his people, also know as the messiah, of which Jesus/Yahshua did not fulfill.

Isaiah 11
1) And a shoot goes out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit.
2) And the spirit of YHUH will rest on him...
3) And he is made to breathe in the fear of YHUH...
10) And it will be in that day, the root of Jesse that stands as the peoples signal, nations will inquire of him, and his place of rest will be glorified.
12) And he will raise a signal to the nations, and WILL GATHER the outcast of Yisrael and the scattered of Yahudah, COLLECTING them from the four corners of the earth.

Jeremiah 23
5) Behold, the days come, says YHUH that I will raise to David a branch of rightness and a king will reign and act wisely, and will do justice and righness in the earth.
6) In his days Yahudah will be saved and Yisrael will dwell safely. And this is his name by which he will be called, Rightness of YHUH.

Jeremiah 30
9) But they will serve YHUH their Elohym and David their king whom I will raise up to them.

Ezekiel 34
23) And I will raise up over them one shepherd and he shall feed them; My servant David, he shall feed them and he shall be their shepherd
24) And I YHUH will be their Elohym and my servant David shall rule among them, I YHUH have spoken

Ezekiel 37
22) And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel and one king will be for a king to all of them and no longer will they be two nations and no longer will they be split into two kingdoms
23) ...I will save them...and I will cleanse them. They shall be my people and I will be their Elohim
24) And my servant David will be king over them

**hyssop** · 01-14-2001, 12:04 PM

Shalom,

Simpleman, I read your post and agree with much of what you said. However, I believe that Yahushua, in His death, fulfilled ALL of the sacrificial commandments.

Yahnathan, it is evident that you love Yahweh and want to please Him. You have turned from your sin, and that is what Yahweh wants from you. Now, I need to stop here and ask you to PLEASE bear with me as we discuss the topic of Yahusha's death. There are some fundamental issues that we need to address before we get to the heart of the matter. As much as I would like to move on, I really feel it important that we establish whether or not Yahweh (or mankind, for that matter) will punish a "substitute" in a sinner's place.

You stated that you would give up your life for your child, even if they were disobedient. I would, too . . . to a point. I would step in front of a runaway bus to push my child out of its path; I would give them my only kidney, if they needed it. However, I don't think that I would go to the electric chair "in their stead" if they murdered someone.

Think about it: will we accept substitutes for a sinner? No. And, why should we? One reaps what they sow; that is what we call justice.

What do the scriptures say about substitutes?

[Exo 32:31 KJV] And Moses returned unto (Yahweh), and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them (elohim) of gold. [32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. [33] And (Yahweh) said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Yahushua called himself the Son of man:

[John 5:26 KJV] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; [27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Will Yahweh accept the Son of man "in the stead of" mankind?

[Ezek 18:20 KJV] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This message of "a sacrifice in your stead" is as old as sacrifice itself. The attitude it fosters is: I can sin and, as long as I have a sacrifice with which to appease Yahweh, I'll be okay. This is the very attitude that the prophets of Israel spoke against:

[Micah 6:7 KJV] Will (Yahweh) be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? [8] He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth (Yahweh) require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with (Yahweh)?

Yahweh wants man to turn from his sin and follow righteousness. The world, however, uses Yahushua's substitutional death as a license to sin. It "sacrifices" Him every Sunday morning for the forgiveness of the sins to which they admit themselves slaves.

Yahnathan, I know that you do not use Yahushua's death in the same manner as the world. I know that you have turned from sin. I hope and pray that you are moved to examine this important topic with me further. There is another way to look at how Yahushua died for us, and it is not substitutional.

If you were a judge and the father of a convicted murderer asked to be put to death in the place of his son, would you kill the father and release the son? If not, we're ready to examine an alternate view of Yahushua's death.

With love in Yahushua's name,

**Yahnathan** · 01-14-2001, 12:48 PM

I can see that most of you do not accept that Messiah Yahushua has come in the flesh to die as our Passover lamb. There are many who are attepting to decieve teaching that the son of YAH has not come in the flesh. I am afraid you guys are wasting your time on me. If you are correct and Yahushua did not come in the flesh YAH have mercy on me.

Farewell in the Love of Yahweh and his Son Yahushua,

**hyssop** · 01-14-2001, 01:54 PM

Yahnathan,

I do not understand how you have interpreted that I do not believe that Yahushua Messiah has come in the flesh. I believe scripture, and it states:

[1 John 4:2 KJV] Hereby know ye the Spirit of (Yahweh): Every spirit that confesseth that (Yahushua Messiah) is come in the flesh is of (Yahweh):

I do not understand how you have interpreted that I do not believe that Yahushua Messiah died as our passover. I believe scripture, and it states:

[1 Cor 5:7 KJV] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even (Messiah) our passover is sacrificed for us:

I believe that Yahushua Messiah has come in the flesh to die as our Passover lamb; but what, exactly, does that mean? I am sorry if I offended you; that was certainly not my intent. I believe that you are searching for truth; so am I. Our views of the mechanics behind Yahushua's death differ. That does not make either of us less sincere.

I realize that my question was difficult to answer. Honest discussion is hard. To really understand another's viewpoint does not come easily. It takes effort to open one's heart and mind to another.

[1 Pet 3:15 KJV] But sanctify (Yahweh Elohim) in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

May Yahweh always direct your footsteps.

With love in Yahushua's name,

**Yahnathan** · 01-14-2001, 05:26 PM

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

What did that Passover lamb represent I wonder ?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

What is the penilty for sin ?

Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

Why was it important that Messiah be hung on a tree if he had not commited a sin worthy of death ?

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Who do you suppose Isaiah is speaking of ?

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Tell me this if you believe messiah did not die for our sins(shead his blood to become a curse on our behalf, to die in our place) then who's sins did he die for his own ?

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

What is the curse of the law ? Death perhaps ?

I hope this helps.

With Love in the Service of Yahushua,

**Sandy** · 01-14-2001, 11:36 PM

Hi Yahnathan
You wrote:

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Who do you suppose Isaiah is speaking of ?

Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel. If you read the chapters before and after you will see who Isaiah is talking about.

**Yahnathan** · 01-15-2001, 09:30 AM

Sandy I think it is clear we disagree.

With Love and Blessings to you in the Name of YAHUEH,

Yahunathan

**Sandy** · 01-15-2001, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Yahnathan
Sandy I think it is clear we disagree.

With Love and Blessings to you in the Name of YAHUEH,

Yahunathan

Yes Yahnathan, it is clear we disagree. I feel the New Testament is an attempt to usurp the Hebrew Scriptures substituting Jesus/Yahshua for Israel as the servant of YHUH. The majority of the Scriptures taken from the Hebrew Scriptures and used in the New Testament are taken out of their context. When placed back in context they do not have the meaning given them by the New Testament writer.

**hyssop** · 01-16-2001, 10:03 PM

Yahnathan,

You have asked a lot of very good questions, and I will attempt to briefly give you my opinion on each:

Yahnathan:
What did that Passover lamb represent I wonder ?

I believe that the Passover lamb represented Yahushua Messiah.

Yahnathan:
What is the penilty for sin ?

I agree with you; the penalty for sin is death.

Yahnathan:
Who do you suppose Isaiah (53) is speaking of ?

I believe that Isaiah is speaking of Yahushua Messiah. However, Isaiah did not say that Yahushua bore our penalty; Isaiah said the He bore our sin. There is a difference that I hope to discuss in the future.

Yahnathan:
Tell me this if you believe messiah did not die for our sins(shead his blood to become a curse on our behalf, to die in our place) then who's sins did he die for his own ?

Excellent question! I asked a similar question that has yet to be answered, and I intend to repeat it below. I do not believe that Yahushua died in our place; I do not believe that He died for His own sin. I believe that Yahushua was murdered while fighting a war against sin and death.

Yahnathan:
What is the curse of the law ? Death perhaps ?

The curse of the law is:

[Deu 27:26 KJV] Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them . . .

I hope that these answers have helped you better understand my position on the topic. I, too, have asked questions that, so far, remain unanswered. They are:

If you do not believe that the Father punished his Son, who did?
What, exactly, do you mean when you say, "his death can take the place of our penalty for sin"? How does this substitutional death work? To whom is this penalty paid?
If you were a judge and the father of a convicted murderer asked to be put to death in the place of his son, would you kill the father and release the son?

There's really no need to answer the last question; unless you state otherwise, I will assume that you would not punish the father in the place of the son. I hope that some day you will come to know that Yahweh would refuse to do it, as well.

[Ezek 14:18 KJV] Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith (Yahweh Elohim), they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. [19] Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: [20] Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith (Yahweh Elohim), they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

With love in Yahushua's name,

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