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  • Ordinances

    Greetings...

    I have done only a small study of the word 'ordinance' used in the New Testement, and am curious if anyone finds a difference in the way that it is used in different places.

    Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances (1345) of the Lord blameless.

    1345 dikai,wma dikaioma {dik-ah'-yo-mah}
    Meaning: 1) that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law 1a) what has been established, and ordained by law, an ordinance 1b) a judicial decision, sentence 1b1) of God 1b1a) either the favourable judgment by which he acquits man and declares them acceptable to Him 1b1b) unfavourable: sentence of condemnation 2) a righteous act or deed
    Origin: from 1344; TDNT - 2:219,168; n n
    Usage: AV - righteousness 4, ordinance 3, judgment 2, justification 1; 10
    That is a verse that is clearly talking about the Law that The Father gave.

    Here are a couple verses that many say are talking about the same, however a different word is used:

    Collosions 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (1378) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Ephisians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (1378); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    1378 do,gma dogma {dog'-mah}
    Meaning: 1) doctrine, decree, ordinance 1a) of public decrees 1b) of the Roman Senate 1c) of rulers 2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment 3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living
    Origin: from the base of 1380; TDNT - 2:230,178; n n
    Usage: AV - decree 3, ordinance 2; 5
    And here are a couple others places where 1378 dogma is used:
    KJV Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree (1378) from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

    Acts 17:7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees (1378) of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.

    Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees (1378) for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.


    Any thoughts?
    Sincerely,
    Valid Name
    Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

  • #2
    Dogmasin!

    Hi Scarlet,

    I absolutely love this topic. You could have entitled this thread “Dogmasin” because that is the Greek word used in both Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15. There is a description of a very famous hand written dogma found in the pages of the Old Testament. Do you know what it is? I will give you a big hint: Drinking wine from golden vessels!

    The actual word, dogma, is used in only three books of the Old Testament, Esther, Ezekiel, and Daniel in the LXX. I had an interesting discussion with Ethienne on a forum at Qumran Bet which was formed and designed solely to attack the Apostle Paul. I went to Qumran to defend the Apostle Paul, and I wish I could direct you to an archive which would show you those debates, but I don’t think that option is available anymore. My discussion with Ethienne revolved around the use of the word, dogma, in Ezekiel 20. I don’t remember for certain, but I don’t think that I was able to develop Paul’s thinking in my debates with him as I hope to do on this thread.

    Dogma is not a Greek word commonly associated with the Law or Torah in the LXX so it is difficult to understand why Paul uses the word in Colossians and Ephesians, but I assure that his use of the word is important!

    Before we tackle the word, dogma, allow me to ask you a few questions? In a physical sense, what was actually nailed to the Cross?

    Have you established in your mind what the nature of the “enmity” is which is referred to by Paul in Ephesians 2:15 and 16? Who is this enmity between? Is the enmity between ELOHIM and man or is the enmity between Jew and Gentile, or both? What do you think?

    Sincerely, Spying
    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Daniel 5? Jer 51?

      Greetings Spying,

      I believe that those are the answers to the dogma in the OT.

      In a physical sense what was nailed to the cross?

      Is this a trick question? Yeshua right ?

      The enmity I believe to the between the Jew and the Gentile. Often times the Jews would not even talk to the Gentile because they had their Law which they felt made them better than the gentile. Many examples are found in the Gospels of this.

      Sincerely,
      Scarlet
      Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

      Comment


      • #4
        Hitting The Nail On The Head!

        Hi Scarlet,

        You hit the nail right on the head with Daniel 5:
        Dan 5:24-28
        24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.
        25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
        26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; ELOHIM hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
        27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
        28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. (KJV)
        This hand written decree or dogma stood against Belshazzar, and it did scare the day lights out of him. A dogma is really a belief or opinion either expressed or unexpressed. A dogmatic individual is one who holds to opinions or beliefs. Of course, the above expressed hand written dogma is also a decree because it comes from the ruler of the universe. In the Old Testament, we can see royal dogmas being issued in the Book of Daniel.

        Now, there is a record of another very famous hand written set of words written by the finger of ELOHIM. We commonly refer to them as the Ten Commandments. They were written on stone tablets, and these tablets were cast down and broken by Moses at Sinai. These words were not dogmas.

        It is written of Abraham:
        Gen 26:5
        5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice (In LXX as Strong’s # 5456) , and kept my charge (In LXX prostagmata. This noun is not used in NT, but the verb is Strong’s # 4367. The verb means to order or command, the noun is “an order or command”.) , my commandments (In LXX as Strong’s # 1785.), my statutes (In LXX as Strong’s # 1345.), and my laws (In LXX nomima. This noun is not used in NT. It means “usages or customs”. Of course, nomos is the Greek word for Law) (KJV)
        You will notice in this record of the obedience of Abraham that obedience to dogmas are conspicuously absent. However, there is another very famous passage in which YAHWEH ELOHIM does express a dogma to Abraham:
        Gen 15:5
        5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (KJV)
        Is it not written that Abram believed YAHWEH? So, it is wise to believe the expressed decrees or opinions of YAHWEH ELOHIM. YAHWEH also looks upon this belief as righteousness!

        I have written this so that we might receive a flavor of what a dogma really is, and I have written this in preparation for tackling the teaching of Paul. There is more preparation that I must do, but I must delay for the time being.

        I was not attempting to trick you. Literally, the hands and feet of Messiah Yahushua were nailed to the Cross. Hands are symbolic of our conscious creative activity or our work. Feet are symbolic of our walk. The right hand I view as our spiritual work. The left hand is our physical work. This is no doubt also true of our walk; although, the right and the left may be reversed with our walk, and they may be overlapped. Even so, we do have a physical walk, and we do have a spiritual walk.

        Please note that Messiah did not nail his own hands and feet to the Cross, but Paul teaches that Messiah did do some nailing in his crucifixion. Indeed, Messiah did hit the nail right on the head, and Messiah did drive the nails home securely!

        I agree that the enmity is between Jew and Gentile! This is also important to understand!

        Sincerely, Spying
        The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          ELOHIM'S Dogmas!

          Hi Scarlet,

          Commandments (Strong’s # 1785) are defined in the Pentateuch And Haftorahs, page 95, note 5, as “Laws dictated by the moral sense, e.g. against the crimes of robbery, bloodshed, etc. Statutes (Strong’s # 1345) are defined as “Laws ordained by God which we are to observe although reason cannot assign an explanation, e.g. the prohibition of swine’s flesh.” Laws (nomima) are defined as “Customs and traditional ordinances orally transmitted from generation to generation.”

          Of the above, Paul uses the Greek word for commandments (1785) in Ephesians 2:15. This is the phrase in which the word “commandments" is found:
          Having rendered useless the Law of the commandments with dogmas
          Notice that I have highlighted the definite articles to indicate that they are found in the Greek. Whenever Paul uses the definite article with the Greek word “nomos”, it is my opinion that Paul is referring to the Torah. Then Paul qualifies the Torah by attaching the words “of the commandments with dogmas”. What in all the world are “commandments with dogmas”? Let’s take the commandment: Thou shalt not kill. Are there any dogmas associated with this commandment? There sure are! First of all, there exists the belief that murder is wrong. Another belief or opinion behind this commandment is simply the dogma that all of us are killers. Who is it that holds this opinion? ELOHIM holds this opinion. HIS opinion of us is why the commandment against murder is given in the first place. Consider this statement of Paul:
          1 Tim 1:8-11
          8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
          9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
          10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
          11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed ELOHIM, which was committed to my trust. (KJV)
          Now, before the Cross of Messiah, Jews were able to look upon us Gentiles with certain dogmas. They themselves had certainly grown to neglect the original dogma of ELOHIM with respect to themselves (Deuteronomy 9:4-7), but the Jews were very eager to apply this dogma of ELOHIM to the Gentiles. The Jews considered themselves righteous because they were blessed to receive the Law while the Gentiles were considered ignorant unrighteous sinners because we did not possess the Law. What Paul is expressing in Ephesians 2 is that this distinction is completely broken down in the suffering and death of Messiah. Any and all such distinctions are rendered useless. How so?

          Well, Scarlet, I know that you have been mentored by Hyssop, and knowing Hyssop as I do, I know that you are in a position to understand that all of mankind are guilty of killing Messiah Yahushua through their sin. You know as well as I that ELOHIM therefore is fully justified in HIS opinion that all men are murderers. So, while the Law made us all sinners, Messiah through his Cross made this sin apply equally to all mankind in order that all may be found equally righteous. Thus, there no longer exists a dividing wall between Jew and Gentile.

          Hopefully, I will be able to write more about this tomorrow as we consider Colossians 2:14.

          Sincerely, Spying
          The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Messiah Nailed It!

            Hi Scarlet,

            There are several things that we should consider as we look at Colossians 2:14
            Col 2:14
            14 Blotting out the handwriting of (the) ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (KJV)
            In the Greek "ordinances" has the definite article and "ordinances" is in the dative case so I don't think that the phrase should be translated as if there exists a "handwriting of dogmas" which stand against us. "The handwriting" exists, and it can be easily seen. Indeed, we can also find the existence of a number of handwritten dogmas which do stand against us, but Paul's focus is upon "the handwriting". So, the phrase "the handwriting of ordinances" should be translated more like this: "the handwriting which is or exists by means of the dogmas." What is "the handwriting"? Well, the whole Torah is itself handwritten, and the whole Torah exists because of the opinions and beliefs of ELOHIM. We could say that the Torah is the faith or belief of ELOHIM, could we not?

            So, did Messiah Yahushua nail the belief and faith of ELOHIM to the Cross? Yes, Messiah did, but we have to be careful here and not fall into the trap of thinking that the faith of ELOHIM is thereby blotted out or deleted as does traditional Christianity which believes that the Torah or Law is all done away with in the Cross of Messiah. Allow me to give you an example. ELOHIM states in the Torah through Moses:
            Deut 6:4
            4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH our ELOHIM is one YAHWEH: (KJV)
            Does this handwritten dogma stand against mankind? It sure does! Mankind is many and not one! Does the Cross blot out the belief or in any manner change the fact that YAHWEH is one? No, it does not! Now, you and I know that Messiah did draw all of mankind to himself through the Cross. We were all crucified with Messiah, were we not? Who nailed us to the Cross? We all died as one through the work of Messiah, and YAHWEH is one YAHWEH. So, the Cross does not blot out the belief that YAHWEH is one YAHWEH. Nay, rather the Cross blots out our disbelief, and the Cross establishes the dogma that YAHWEH is indeed one YAHWEH. Messiah nailed it!

            Hopefully, we can expand more on this tomorrow.

            Sincerely, Spying
            The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Changing Dogmas!

              Hi Scarlet,

              We have seen that the commandments stand against us through the dogmas behind them. We have seen that this opposition really comes from the whole Torah or Law through the dogma of ELOHIM! This can readily be seen whenever anyone honestly contemplates the commands of YAHWEH concerning sacrifice. Sacrifice was not an option for Israel. The Priesthood was not an option. Consider the need for a Day of Atonement. Whenever YAHWEH ELOHIM ordered that this day be observed, YAHWEH did not say:
              You know, Israel, I think it would be a good idea, just in case some of you do sin, that we have a national holiday in which you can make atonement!
              This is not the dogma which caused the Day of Atonement to be established. This is not the dogma behind the requirement that we humble ourselves and fast. This is not the dogma behind the sacrifices required on this day. Rather, these verses indicate the real dogma of YAHWEH:
              Lev 16:6
              6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.(KJV)

              Lev 16:16
              16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. (KJV)

              Lev 16:21
              21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (KJV)
              Clearly, the dogma of YAHWEH ELOHIM comes through loud and clear in these verses. As the psalmist writes:
              Ps 53:2-3
              2 ELOHIM looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek ELOHIM.
              3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)
              So, the existence of sacrifice, the existence of the Priesthood, the existence of the Tabernacle and Altar, and the existence of special days does not tell us that YAHWEH believes that the Children of Israel have done good. No, rather, they are an indictment against Israel. As it is written:
              Ezekiel 20:25-26
              25 So I gave them orders (prostagmata) that were not good, and statutes (Strong's # 1345) in which they should not live by them.
              26 And I will defile them by the dogmas of them requiring that all opening a womb must be passed through me in order that I may destroy them. (The LXX, verse 26 may read alternately “requiring that all must be passed through me opening a womb in order that I may destroy them”)
              So, is the Cross of Messiah Yahushua really a remedy for this situation as Paul suggests in Colossians 2:14? Were we all defiled in the Cross of Messiah? Did we all pass through YAHWEH ELOHIM in that event? Were we all destroyed? Was a womb opened? Does Messiah in these events really blot out the horrible opinion that YAHWEH ELOHIM has of the Children of Israel through his Cross? Yes, Messiah does accomplish all these things. How so?

              Hopefully, more tomorrow.

              Sincerely, Spying
              The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                You must search for context!

                ...Spying, in order to place into context what Ezekiel is saying, you need to read ahead.

                19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city.

                20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced.

                21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver.

                22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort. Eze. 21: 19 - 22

                ...We have a dating here that puts these words as being spoken before the desolation of Jerusalem, by Babylon. After Babylon comes the release from the prison. A righteous people leave Babylon, and go and rebuild Jerusalem, having a perpetual blessing with them, and an Eloheem that promises that he will never again be angry with his people. {Isa. 54: 7 - 9}

                ...Ezekiel's statement underlines what the problem was that YHWH was upset with.

                xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

                31 For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.

                32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone. Eze. 20: 31, 32

                xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

                ...What existed in Jerusalem, as the people of the land, didn't worship false gods. They are exempt from these words. They are not the ones being spoken to. This matter is dated to the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth day of that month, a time before Babylons coming to Jerusalem. {Eze. 20: 1}

                XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

                Spying writes;

                So, the existence of sacrifice, the existence of the Priesthood, the existence of the Tabernacle and Altar, and the existence of special days does not tell us that YAHWEH believes that the Children of Israel have done good. No, rather, they are an indictment against Israel. As it is written:
                quote:
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Ezekiel 20:25-26
                25 So I gave them orders (prostagmata) that were not good, and statutes (Strong's # 1345) in which they should not live by them.
                26 And I will defile them by the dogmas of them requiring that all opening a womb must be passed through me in order that I may destroy them. (The LXX, verse 26 may read alternately “requiring that all must be passed through me opening a womb in order that I may destroy them”)
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                So, is the Cross of Messiah Yahushua really a remedy for this situation as Paul suggests in Colossians 2:14? Were we all defiled in the Cross of Messiah? Did we all pass through YAHWEH ELOHIM in that event? Were we all destroyed? Was a womb opened? Does Messiah in these events really blot out the horrible opinion that YAHWEH ELOHIM has of the Children of Israel through his Cross? Yes, Messiah does accomplish all these things. How so?

                XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

                ...The sacrifices that you mention are for unintended sin {defilement} of the things of YHWH. Deliberate sin is not covered. YHWH covers deliberate sin with forgiveness {forgetting that it happened}, when he is of such a spirit to forgive. The womb of YHWH is passed through in the birth of this people. YHWH himself, gives birth to them according to Isa. 46: 3, 4. Your statment, "does messiah {meaning "Jesus"}, in these events really blot out the horrible opinion that YAHWEH ELOHEM has of the children of Israel through his cross?" This is the arrow that killed six and a half million JEWs in the holocaust. { GD, "messiah" has a hiorible opinion of JEWs} YHWH has vindicated his people with a decree that he would never again be angry with them. Why won't you vindicate this people by the words of their Eloheem? Why do you keep kicking at the wound that christianity made in this people? {-->JEWs are not OK<--}

                ...Dogma is what you believe of "Jesus". But righteousness in not found in accusing the righteous, of the sins of others.

                ....Michael

                Comment


                • #9
                  Transgressions?

                  Hi Thummim,

                  Please forgive my neglect lately. Most of it has not been deliberate!

                  I was wondering how long you were going to allow me to stand on the box alone.

                  Ezekiel 20 details what YAH has done and what YAH will do with the House of Israel scattered amongst the nations. Ezekiel 21 is a prophecy against Jerusalem and the land of Israel. How do the two chapters fit into the same context?

                  In Ezekiel 20:25, it is YAH that says “I will destroy them” or “I will make them vanish”. What do those words have to do with the House of Judah and their Babylonian captivity? Moreover, what do these words have to do with the House of Judah?:
                  Ezek 20:33-34
                  33 As I live, saith ADONAI ELOHIM, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
                  34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. (KJV)
                  I see the Cross of Messiah Yahushua in these words. Why is it that you do constantly resist recognizing that YAH HIMSELF is capable of accomplishing the tasks that HE delegates to HIMSELF? This is your weakness. YAH tells you through all the prophets what HE has done and what HE will do. You read Isaiah, and then you place Isaiah in opposition to the other prophets by denying the work of Messiah Yahushua in his words. The context has been and will always be YAH. Cyrus is not YAH, and neither did Cyrus gather or rule over the House of Israel lost amongst the nations.

                  In Leviticus 16 we find these words:
                  Lev 16:16-17
                  16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
                  17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. (KJV)
                  What are “transgressions”? In the Hebrew, this is Strong’s # 6588. The word is “Pesha”. This same word is also used in verse 21. This word means “rebellion”. Are you telling me that “rebellion” is not deliberate sin?

                  Sincerely, Spying
                  The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Where are we?

                    ...Spying, the first thing we need to do to establish some context for what Ezekiel writes, is to find some sort of dating. This is easy here because a date leads off the 20th chapter of Ezekiel. It is the seventh year of exile and certain elders ask of Ezekiel, for an oracle. {that is, what does YHWH say?} Ezekiel states his reasons for the exile. Isaiah does not disagree with Ezekiel. Idolatry, and leaving the faith of YHWH are given as the reason by both men, for the desolation of the land of Israel. {Jeremiah also adds something else in his 34th chapter, refusing to release the people from their debt as reason for the captivity} But is this sin to be perpetually unpardoned by YHWH? It has it's end with the emergence of Cyrus {GD's right arm} and his overthrow of the kingdom of kingdoms. This act, coupled with the decree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem is seen by Isaiah as a complete pardon of the people of Israel, for those who have chosen to cling to YHWH. But those who choose other god's to serve are no longer YHWH's people. This theme is the same with both Isaiah and Ezekiel. A distinction is always being made between those who choose the ways of YHWH, and those who don't. It is only this group of people who are covered by YHWH's name. Both Isaiah and Ezekiel state that the followers of YHWH, of the people of Israel, will inherit the land of Israel. The dire deeds of Ezekiel follow the same predictions given by Jeremiah and Isaiah. First comes darkness, and then comes the light. But in the light is ample forgiveness of any rebellion that existed for those who have returned to the ways of their Eloheem. You want to drown in a perpetual mire, Israel's followers of YHWH. There is no charge against this people after Babylon. {Babylon is mentioned in Ezekiel; --> Eze. 17: 28, - 19: 9, - 21: 19, 21, - 24: 2, - 26: 7, - 29: 18, 19, also establishing the timing of Ezekiel's words} Babylon exists as a rod of GD to use against the rebels {of his own people} who turn away from worshiping YHWH. You continually dig into the past to find a charge to accuse these people of, which you use again and again against them. Believe in this peoples righteousness. They have paid for their transgressions many times over. Would YHWH wouldn't have said through the prophet Isaiah, the following words in vain?

                    22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

                    23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. Isa. 44: 22

                    ...This is post Babylon. This is after Ezekiel's oracle. If there is any disagreement between these two prophets {Ezekiel and Isaiah}, whose words will you hold closer to your heart?


                    Spying writes;

                    Why is it that you do constantly resist recognizing that YAH HIMSELF is capable of accomplishing the tasks that HE delegates to HIMSELF?

                    ...You do not give the redemption that YHWH cedes to his people, to them while still ladling on plenty of {misdated} charges against them. If you can build yourself a faith that cancels out your own transgressions out of this JEWish book of Isaiah, why can't you concede YHWH's redemption of Israel as stated in this same book? You can bless or curse this people. The choice is yours. {it is not wise to curse children in front of their father, no matter what you think their sin is} There is plenty of substance to bless by, if you can get it past your own heart. When I look upon the JEWish people, I see a righteous people with yesterdays debts cancelled by decree of YHWH. You see sin to overcome. The only idolaters among this people are those who choose to worship an idol of flesh, like yourself. But I believe that even these people have hope if they will put away their idol and except the righteousness that their Eloheem has already given them, if they would choose to worship him alone.

                    ...There is no offering for deliberate sin. YHWH alone can forgive such a transgression. {he is the one sinned against} Where the defilement of the name of YHWH comes into play, the sins that be, though unintended, still count. The priests are the janitors of GD's domain here on the earth. The priestly offerings are for cleaning up unintentional sin. Sins of the heart are all together different. If YHWH doesn't forgive, he brings out his rod and the prophets.

                    ...Can bad things happen to good people, against the will of YHWH? Can YHWH's presence come outside of his name?

                    6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. Isa. 52: 6

                    ...Who speaks outside of YHWH's name? Shall we trust him?

                    9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints. Ps. 52: 9


                    ....Michael

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      YH'SHWH's WORD is LAW

                      This I have learned:

                      Awhile back, I was in a WORD Study Group and a list of rules was given to us, parents, concerning our children's behavior during the studies. I looked at the list and at first thought that with these rules how could the children have any fun. I took them (the list of rules) home to study them.

                      In HIS SPIRIT, I rewrote the list of rules and handed them to the adults.
                      _______

                      GUIDELINES FOR ABBA’S CHILDREN

                      RESPECT ALL ADULTS IN THE GROUP

                      When ABBA says to do something-------DO IT!!!

                      If not, you will be given a warning and if, any, disobedience continues you will need to sit with ABBA.


                      RESPECT EACH OTHER

                      No Hitting and No Kicking: Do not hurt each other

                      No Name Calling: Lovingly, confront each other; do not accuse

                      No Tugging, Pushing, or Pulling: Each member has their level of relationship with ABBA. Respect it!!!


                      RESPECT PROPERTY

                      No Marking or Writing On: Do not falsely label each other.

                      No Throwing: No throwing words that will not prosper on each other.

                      No Kicking or Jumping: No tantrums, jealousy, or stomping on each other

                      No Running: Stay in control (under HIS WORD) with each other

                      Keep Voices Below Shouting Level: Do not be harsh with each other

                      What You Take Out To Play With---You Put Away: Whatever you are guilty of, confess it to each other and put it away.

                      From, ABBA.

                      If any disobedience continues, children involved will be disciplined. LISTEN or other arrangements will be made concerning “child care”.
                      _______

                      YH'SHWH spoke to me:

                      I AM YOUR LORD GOD, YH’SHWH!!!
                      You were created to follow MY WAYS and live and use MY WORD.
                      When you use your own words
                      you are speaking words I did not create!!!
                      MY WORDS are LIFE! MY WORDS stand for what they say!
                      MY WORDS will not fail! MY WORDS will, forever, be.
                      I cannot withdraw what I have said!

                      Your words try, but cannot, imitate MINE!
                      I AM GOD!!!
                      If you will not speak MY WORDS - SHUT UP!!!
                      You belong to ME and MY WORDS will protect you
                      and take care of you.
                      Do not try to comfort yourself with your words or your ideas.
                      Stop speaking your false words!!!

                      MY WORDS should be on your mind!
                      MY WORDS should be fire out of your mouth!
                      MY WORDS should be living in your actions!
                      MY WORDS should run your life!
                      MY WORDS are yours!
                      I AM your GOD!!!

                      Now, relax!
                      Keep looking toward ME. Keep coming to ME.
                      Keep denying yourself.
                      Give up your own rights and I will give you MINE!!!

                      Everything I have told you, I will do!!!
                      When I speak to you, you will understand ME.
                      YOU are MY BODY.
                      Everything that is MINE, is yours
                      MY BRIDE, stay with ME.
                      WE are ONE!!!
                      I AM YOUR LORD GOD, YH’SHWH,
                      And WE are ONE!!!

                      LOVE, RICOEL
                      The BODY of MESSIAH Ministry

                      I did not CREATE YOU for a certain time.
                      I CREATED YOU for ETERNITY.
                      I CREATED YOU for ME.
                      That is why I SAVED YOU.
                      For ME.

                      YOUR HUSBAND,
                      YHSHWH

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Righteousness in the name of YHWH {our righteousness}

                        ...Hi Ricoel, There are enough things to give account for in our lives. Accountability should be held to the length of ones life. Once it was said that accountability would extend to the third and fourth generation. But Jeremiah reasoned that making the children pay for Abba's sins was wrong. Now it is written that he who eats the sour grape is the one with the tooth problem. There are those who charge the JEWish people with eating sour grapes from a 2500 year old tree. Whoa now! Lets consider the belly ache that this causes. If a people were to kick YHWH in the shin 2500 years ago, do you think that their offspring removed from them by 2500 years, should still be paddled for the transgression? How many generations of children should be paddled for this transgression? Would you agree to swing the paddle yourself? I seem to have a problem convincing anyone, that YHWH holding wrath for some 2500 years to beat his children perpetually, just isn't his way. He has already said that he wouldn't hold wrath any longer against this people.

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                        9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

                        10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith YHWH that hath mercy on thee. Isa. 54: 9, 10

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                        ...When I see you waving the same stick as Spying, at the children of Abba YHWH, I become a little bit peeved. Could you live under the stick that you wave? Now tell me where YHWH charges his people with any transgression, post Babylon. As I read the dating associated with scripture, to see where the transgressions are, I find no charge being levied by YHWH against his people after they build the second temple. {in the tanakh} Of course christianity is free to point its very long finger at the JEWish people, through the writings of the {new testement}. But these words are not in line with the {thus saith YHWH approach} of the tanakh's author's. Remember that the letters {Y-H-W-H} are not referenced even once in the NT. It would be possible to write them in Greek or Latin, if its authors had desired to do so. This to me seems to be an insurmountable problem with the NT. It's authors don't seem to have the same way of thinking about the name of YHWH. {probably because they know that these letters are four of the five letters of the name of YaHudaH} Were it not for christianity and the NT, it is likely that someone would have discovered that the JEWish people are not the killers of the messiah that they have been represented to be. As I read it, these are a people whose Eloheem does not get angry with them, because of their everlasting salvation. {Isa. 45: 17} Isaiah found his intercessor for this people {Isa. chap. 53}, and they were led out of Babylon under a perpetual blessing. {Hag. 2: 18, 19} All Israel is to be found righteous {Isa. 60: 21 and elsewhere} in this time of YHWH's letting {all} of his servants go free {as an example of how to practice the year of release right *Jer. chap. 34* "-->read it"} Now how does a chapter of text {Isa. 53} naming the authors people as beneficeries of his writing {my people - 53: 8}, not go free, while an unnamed people cover themselves with this text? At least the JEWish people should be covered equally as well.

                        ...So 2500 years pass, and arguments are still made, that this is an unrighteous people because they still have enemies in this world. But could it be, that it is the name of YHWH, that delivers his people? Outside of the name of YHWH, the enemies of YaHUdaH will mass. {christianity included} David will destroy them all {the enemies} by the name of his GD, or so the text says.

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                        10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH will I destroy them.

                        11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH I will destroy them.

                        12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of YHWH I will destroy them. Ps. 118: 10 - 12

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                        ...Wouldn't it be better to let this people go free of all the charges against them?

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                        23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {swear what?}

                        24 Surely, shall one say, in the {name of YHWH} have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

                        25 In the {name of YHWH} shall all the seed of Israel be justified, {tzadek --> found righteous} and shall glory. Isa. 45: 23 - 25

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                        ....Michael

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          LOVE is Discipline

                          Sir,

                          My YH'WH LOVES me and that is why HE DISCIPLINES me.

                          I am too selfish to grow into HIS WORD/LAW; HIS WAYS.

                          I need HIS DISCIPLINE; HIS ATTENTION.

                          I KNOW HE LOVES ME.
                          _______

                          I LOVE my son and that is why I DISCIPLINE him.

                          LOVE, RICOEL
                          The BODY of MESSIAH Ministry

                          I did not CREATE YOU for a certain time.
                          I CREATED YOU for ETERNITY.
                          I CREATED YOU for ME.
                          That is why I SAVED YOU.
                          For ME.

                          YOUR HUSBAND,
                          YHSHWH

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Blotting Out!

                            Hi Scarlet,

                            Let's take a look at "blotting out". The verb used in Colossians 2:14 is Strong's # :
                            1813 exaleipho (ex-al-i'-fo);

                            from 1537 and 218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin):

                            KJV-- blot out, wipe away.
                            Strong's # 218, aleipho, is the root of exaleipho. Aleipho simply means to anoint with oil. With the Greeks, the "aleiphomenoi" were the "athletes", I suppose because of the anointing or wiping with oil.

                            Exaleipho in its various forms is used in these scriptures in the New Testament:
                            Acts 3:19
                            19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of ADONAI; (KJV)

                            Col 2:14
                            14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (KJV)

                            Rev 3:5
                            5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (KJV)

                            Rev 7:17
                            17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and ELOHIM shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (KJV)

                            Rev 21:4
                            4 And ELOHIM shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (KJV)
                            All of these are powerful scriptures so "exaleipho" is important to us!

                            This Greek verb "exaleipho" is used almost 40 times in the LXX. In its noun form, it is used at least 3 times. What OT scripture do you think that Paul had uppermost in his mind as he wrote Colossians 2:14? I would like to offer a few in the order which they occur for your consideration:
                            Gen 7:4
                            4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. (KJV)

                            Gen 7:23
                            23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. (KJV)

                            Exod 17:14
                            14 And YAHWEH said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. (KJV)

                            Exod 32:32-33
                            32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
                            33 And YAHWEH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (KJV)

                            Lev 14:42-48
                            42 And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
                            43 And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered; (I also think of the work of Messiah here as he cleansed the physical Temple of the money merchants)
                            44 Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
                            45 And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place. (Here, I think of the destruction of the second physical Temple, not one stone upon another, but I also think of the spiritual Temple, the Body of Messiah!)
                            46 Moreover he that goeth into the house all the while that it is shut up shall be unclean until the even.
                            47 And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes; and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.
                            48 And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and, behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plaistered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed. (KJV) (There is an inspection that is coming!)

                            Num 5:23
                            23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water: (KJV)
                            Jumping ahead to one of Thummin's favorite scriptures:
                            Isa 43:25
                            25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. (KJV)

                            Hosea 11:9
                            9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am ELOHIM, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. (KJV)
                            No doubt, these and many more scriptures conditioned Paul's thinking, and we haven't even looked yet in Psalms. Personally, I am drawn to one of the scriptures that I have already quoted. Which of the above scriptures do you think may have been uppermost in the mind of Paul as he composed Colossians 2:14? If you have any other suggestions, I am open to considering them!

                            Sincerely, Spying
                            The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Turning To ELOHIM!

                              Hi Thummim,

                              When I look upon the Jewish people, I do see a righteous people despite your protestations to the contrary. Indeed, they are righteous as is the whole world through the work of Messiah Yahushua. That is his gift to us. Paul states it thusly:
                              2 Cor 5:18-19
                              18 And all things are of ELOHIM, who hath reconciled us to himself by Yahushua Messiah, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
                              19 To wit, that ELOHIM was in Messiah, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (KJV)
                              The word of reconciliation includes both Jews and Gentiles, and this reconciliation is real. It exists because Messiah was able to bring all sinners to the Cross to die with him. Messiah forced us through his Cross to lay down our lives and pay the ultimate penalty for our sin. Having paid for our transgressions, even our most grievous rebellions and iniquities, we are like unto all those who have been executed for their crimes. Justice has been served. What more can be asked of us?

                              Messiah in his love for us was able to dispense this justice for us while we were yet sinners. Indeed, Messiah was able to take our sin against HIMSELF, and through the fulfillment of the NAME, Messiah was able to make our sin, righteousness.

                              Isaiah speaks of these things, but you prefer to think otherwise.

                              Any charge that I lay against anyone in the world both Jew and Gentile is based upon the eloquent statement equally penned by both Isaiah and Paul:
                              2 Cor 5:20
                              20 Now then we are ambassadors for Messiah, as though ELOHIM did beseech you by us: we pray you in Messiah's stead, be ye reconciled to ELOHIM. (KJV)

                              Isa 44:22-23
                              22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
                              23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YAHWEH hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YAHWEH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. (KJV)
                              In order to turn to ELOHIM, what must Jacob do? In order for the world to reconcile themselves to ELOHIM what must they do? You know the answer! Just as darkness flees from the presence of light so also must we flee from our sin; otherwise, how can we ever turn and not flee?

                              You are just like the Christians in their perverse perspective. In theory, you both proclaim the blotting out of transgressions all the while you stand exuding sin. Only the righteous can remain in the presence of ELOHIM.

                              Think what you will, but sin crucifies an innocent man whether that sin be Gentile or Jewish sin, deliberate or unintended!

                              Sincerely, Spying
                              The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                              Comment

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