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**beseder** · 11-18-2002, 11:44 PM

hope you dont mind

Spying, when i read your thread "Elohim reigns" thats what opened my to the TRUTH, because of the scriptures you presented there.
This here is another TRUTH I SEE and wish to believe, but i know i dont since i dont live it. which corresponds to the above .

2 Cor 4:5-7
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Messiah Yahushua YAHWEH; and ourselves your servants for Yahushua's sake.
6 For ELOHIM, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of ELOHIM in the face of Yahushua Messiah.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of ELOHIM, and not of us. (KJV)

"TO LIVE IS MESSIAH, TO DIE IS TO GAIN."
"I NOLONGER LIVE BUT MESSIAH LIVES IN ME"

All of these scriptures have been opened up to me by 1John3.9
They no longer lived but Messiah and they feared no one but HaShem and NOTICE the way Jesus said it.

Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (KJV)
DO NOT FEAR THOSE THAT KILL THE BODY! BUT HASHEM THAT CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY, why would he destroy the soul if there is no blame on it also the body, I understand what Thummim has been proffessing now, and Messiah has fulfilled this. HOW?
MAT 24.34
I assure you, this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things take place.

1 Cor 15:51-58
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we (who is the "we" here?) shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to ELOHIM, which giveth us the victory through our ADONAI Yahushua Messiah.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of YAHWEH, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in YAHWEH. (KJV)

look also at this, Im still dubious on the desciple however,

John 21.20
Peter turned around and saw the descipleJesus loved following them- the one who had leaned over to Jesus during supper and asked, "ADONAI, who among us will betray you?" Peter asked Jesus, "WHAT about him, Adon?
Jesus replied, "IF I want to him to REMAIN ALIVE until I return, what is that to you? You follow me."
.... So the believers spread therumor that the desciple wouldn't die. BUT that isnt what Jesus said. He only said, "IF I want to him to REMAIN ALIVE until I return, what is that to you? You follow me."
How can this be possible?

Mat 19.26
Jesus looked at them intently and said, " Humanly speaking, it is ee'efshar. But with ELOHIM everything is efshar"
(The whole passage even goes with the context of this thread)

there are many many many other scriptures i can put down too. But i have spoken too much placing me under more and more judgement since i still am not a SON.
Are we the evil or Good servant? If we still sow in the flesh(SIN) we will reap death(MOSES will judge us)

INDEED Messiah has MADE things harder, but whomever the SON sets free, He is free indeed, and I hope to get that one day ad reject this "LIFE" that is not LIFE, because REALITY is at GD's rigt hand where MEssiah is seated in the place of honor and power.
(collosians 3.2)

2 Tim 3:1-5
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of ELOHIM;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (KJV)
I realized that I am guilty of verse 5, AND I KNOW that the Majority, 99% of Christians, and Messianic Jews and any name a person "BELIEVING" in Messiah wishes to call themselves, are in trouble- we are not SONS/children.
I have fought with this portion of scripture for a while saying, "well, that doesnt mean I'm not His son" until I accepted the wor for what it was with the influx of conviction concerning many many many parts of the WORD. If Hashem can how me the truth, He can show you- I see it, I just dont believe it because i dont live it, I am afraid of giving up my life. I hope I will soon come to that TRUE decision one day, SOON!
I need speak no more, if you want to wrestle with GD, go ahead, any of you. BUT KNOW, I have no will to wrestle anymore with anyone,only to share the truth and condemn mysef more as long as i live like this- I hope for the day that I "KNOW the power thereof" as i hope the same for you all.

JOHN LIVES, and that Generation has not passed, they still live with us NOW, not only in SPIRIT but in BODY. WHY? BECAUSE HIS SPIRIT WAS NOT TAKEN from their bodies- save for those that have been killed.

SHALOM

**Spying** · 11-19-2002, 11:11 AM

Mourning

OH Beseder,

I wept when I read your posts. You know me. You understand me. Oh, how difficult it is to communicate our thoughts through the written word. We can write to each other for years and never understand what the other is saying. I understand you. Thank you, Heavenly Father, for our understanding!

I also am one of the 99% who hold to the form of religion but deny its power through my deliberate sin, my iniquity. I am seeking like you to exercise the power and be free, truly free. I know that the power exists because I have been free in my life through that power, but then, like a baby, I forget, and I sin, and I grieve that power, and I through my sin make myself doubt. Even to doubt is sin. So, I am often in the very depths of despair because I find myself in my life continually forced with the necessity of laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works (Hebrews 6:1) instead of moving on to perfection.

These are true words:

JOHN LIVES, and that Generation has not passed, they still live with us NOW, not only in SPIRIT but in BODY. WHY? BECAUSE HIS SPIRIT WAS NOT TAKEN from their bodies- save for those that have been killed.

Beseder, you make me a depressive manic. You make me weep in the depths of despair, and then you make me shout for joy! YES!! There are indeed those who are still alive. They know how to exercise the power, and they are patiently waiting for us to learn.

Did I not say that you were like a fine wine too long in the bottle? I love you, my brother. You are going to help us exercise the power.

Why does JOHN and THAT GENERATION remain apart from us? I don't know for sure, but I believe it is because of this nature of the peace offerings:

Lev 7:18
18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity. (KJV)

Messiah said:

John 6:55-57
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (KJV)

JOHN and THAT GENERATION ate of the flesh of Messiah who was the peace offering. Right now, I believe that JOHN and THAT GENERATION are fasting:

Matt 9:15
15 And Yahushua said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. (KJV)

So, the flesh of Messiah can only be eaten for a certain time, or if we should look at it from another perspective, this world only has opportunity to eat from the peace offering according to the seder of the Law. I look upon a spiritual day as being either 100 years long or a thousand years long. The fast of JOHN and THAT GENERATION should have begun sometime in the 2nd Century. JOHN and THAT GENERATION knows that the change (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) for them will come in our generation, in our time. It is fire that changes, and our ELOHIM is a consuming fire!

Where does that leave us? Have we opportunity to eat from the peace offerings? Not according to the Law! This is why JOHN and THAT GENERATION remain hidden from us, at least, that is what I suspect.

Beseder, I want you to consider this scripture because I would like to be able to pick your mind after Messiah gets you searching into it:

Joel 2:11-14
11 And YAHWEH shall utter his voice before his army (Messiah on the Cross): for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of YAHWEH is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith YAHWEH, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto YAHWEH your ELOHIM: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto YAHWEH your ELOHIM? (KJV)

Concerning the blessings left behind for us:

MATTHEW 26:26-27

1 CORINTHIANS 10:16-17

So, Messiah has not left us without sustenance. We do have something to eat and drink.

It is the source of our strength!

We have gone full circle. Do you remember how DeAnna and I argued about this issue? She had no idea where I was coming from while I argued that there was much that we ourselves must do!

Be Blessed, Beseder!

Sincerely, your brother, Spying

**Thummim** · 11-20-2002, 10:07 AM

Context; He is gracious and merciful to his people.

Context is important.

18 Then will YHWH be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19 Yea, YHWH will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for YHWH will do great things.

22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in YHWH your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of YHWH your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am YHWH your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. Joel 2: 19

...Spying, if we put into context the verses of Joel 2: 11 - 14, then these words cannot refer to "Jesus" at all. I have posted the context above. Note that there is a blessing that belongs to Israel intended by these words. The dreadful army is to distroy the enemies of Israel. On whose side is YHWH, during this movement of the great army? Who leads the army? Isn't it YHWH who is bringing relief to his people with this dreadful army?

11 And YHWH shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of YHWH is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Joel 2: 11

So YHWH leads an invincible army against the enemies of Israel. Did "Jesus" do this to the Romans? If the army of YHWH leaves an offering, it is to mark the purity of YHWH's people {the bride of YHWH, vs. 2: 16} and his intent to deliver them all from their strong enemies. Remember that the day of YHWH comes to punish the oppressors of GD's people. Leaving context makes possible any conclusion imaginable. {Joel 3: 2}

....Michael

**beseder** · 11-20-2002, 11:08 AM

Understand the CONTEXT spying!

Hi bro.
shalom shalom to you

I was and am very glad that you SEE and know with me, that you UNDERSTAND me- that you find yourself in the same predicament that i am in.
Alot of us, even ones that know that we are not to deliberately sin, do not know of the great measure sin causes. If these people don't know, yet do not deliberately sin, they are the ones that are blessed with a great measure of faith and not knowledge. hehe and blessed are those people- just dont have them teach but encourage.

I'm saying this because it seems that us here in the U.S. are falling in love with knowledge instead of the TRUTH. The Truth opens the door to limiteless knowledge in its true form. The truth is the Spirit-Knowledge itself is nothing.
I fell in love with knowledge. But when I began to read the word one day, i saw that was reading of a totally different faith than from the one I knew. These "christians" do not deserve to be called christans when their excuse is "I'm only human", this is what we are called to surpass. But then again, it isn't the WE when we recieve the SPIRIT, it is then HIM, and that HIM is Moshiach.
I want to REALLY recieve Moshiach this time, and not grieve Him, I want to take on this true substitution. " For I no longer live but Messiah lives in me" and " TO live is Moshiach..." . I want to be called amoungst the Meshechim(messiah's=followers of moshiach) who is only the body of Moshiach. He takes on the sin that we have done and when we truely recieve HIM we are on the road to perfection.
When we recieve Messiah, the Context of all that is written will be shown to us Spying. That I know. We will put on the immortal and throwaway the mortal- this is infact a moment to moment/daily to daily process. But it can be done, Spying "count the cost." I have been doing this so far, and the cost on my part is GREAT and heavy- i have alot to give up(I'm not rich, but it reminds me of the rich man). But if you are willing to jump in, then I will aswell no matter the cost. It would be awesome to have you there. From then, expect to see me if Hashem wills.

Let's recieve Moshiach and the power thereof- i know I have never experienced it. I know it's true, and that power there of is immotality, everything else is commentary(helaing, [true]prophecying, [true]tongues,etc.) and I know that the Love of Moshiach will triumph in all situations that people will be astonished to see. PEOPLE then will SEE the truth as you and I have. The lay people will see the difference between our religion and the other Pseudo's. And everyone else will know they're situatin with hashem, that they are sinful people, even if they only do one sin- even if their sin is in their heart. The Knowledge of Moshiach will have people either gnash their teeth and be cut to the quick, or fall in love with Moshiach and throw away their old man, from that second those that recieve him will be totally different people- I KNOW and I SEE, I just now want to believe.

SHALOM bro

**beseder** · 11-20-2002, 11:19 AM

I understand

Hi spying

the scripture that you wanted me to recieve
I understand it and it makes sence completely
what isit that you wanted to share concerning it?

**Thummim** · 11-20-2002, 12:04 PM

{Living/dead} bodies.

...Spying, how does the image of GD {body one of GD}, work into body two {the body of messiah}? When we look into the mirror, we see the image of GD. We already have a body of GD. Does this body to whom any promises of resurection belong, get pushed aside to allow a new body to stand in its place? What if I were to see the same old body standing in the place of the messiah's body, {my spiritual rebirth}, am I asked to see a second body now in its place? How do we look at these two ideas, side by side? Isn't this first image of GD sufficient for YHWH's {spirit<-- ? -->name} to dwell in? I lack the spiritual onlook to resolve the conflict that two separate bodies of GD seem to present. It seems to me that the body of GD concept has already been used by the author of the tanakh. Both of these bodies seem to have an appointment with the grave. {as our own bodies} Are you suggesting that the {reborn?} but still subject to the grave, body of GD, is still alive or holds more life than the first image of GD body does? {I speak of the living generation that has been infered as well} I'm spiritually dim witted as you know. Somehow we must advance from one idea to another.

**Spying** · 11-20-2002, 01:19 PM

Renewing The Body!

Hi Beseder,

I am tempted to keep this thread at the top of the forum for awhile. I think that I have that capability; eventhough, I have never exercised that feature. Only rarely have I openly taught about immortality on this forum, and I have been afraid to come out in the open and discuss this issue without veiling the issue somewhat. Whenever you start teaching that immortals do exist among us, or that immortality is possible in this life, most people will be very quick to judge such a teacher as unbalanced or deceived. So, I only leave hints here and there as I did on the Our ELOHIM Reigns Thread. Now, my dear brother, we have let the cat completely out of the bag.

Here is more evidence that immortality or eternal life is possible in Messiah Yahushua right now. Paul makes this statement concerning eating and drinking the body and blood of Messiah Yahushua:

1 Cor 11:25-30
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew ADONAI'S death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of ADONAI, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of ADONAI.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning ADONAI'S body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.(KJV)

Paul is writing here about being physically weak and getting sick and dying. Now, what is so unusual about Christians getting sick and dying? It happens all the time. Is this not the course of life in this world? If we are not killed, we eventually get sick and die, do we not? So, why do we need to examine ourselves if getting sick and dying is the norm? Obviously, the believer can do something about getting sick and dying. The believer can examine himself properly, and the believer can repent of those things that should not be found taking place in his life. This option is not open to the unbeliever. Unbelievers, if they are not killed, are always going to get sick and die. The implication here is that the believer has the option to live, that is, if the believer is eating the body and drinking the blood of Messiah Yahushua in a worthy fashion. The scriptures do not teach a time limit on this option save perhaps as we may have already indicated.

James supports Paul's teaching. He writes concerning those believers who get sick:

James 5:14-16
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of ADONAI:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and ADONAI shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (KJV)

Again, through confession and repentance and prayer, the believer exercises the option for life.

The physical body will always respond to a healed spirit. A cleansed spirit is a healthy body. As the spirit is renewed, the body is renewed.

And, yes, I realize that flesh and blood are not meant to inherit the Kingdom of ELOHIM. That is a separate issue!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 11-20-2002, 06:09 PM

How many dead, and are the best really being saved?

...Spying writes;

Again, through confession and repentance and prayer, the believer exercises the option for life.

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...But if YHWH makes one righteous, does {he/her} inherit immortality? Is the righteousness given by YHWH, without life for the heir of this GD given righteousness, as compared to the X-tian way?

...Spying writes;

The implication here is that the believer has the option to live, that is, if the believer is eating the body and drinking the blood of Messiah Yahushua in a worthy fashion.

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...Is it only the believer who eats and drinks "Jesus", who gains life for doing so? What about the kadosh'im who died in the holocaust? Do these people have enough righteousness to enter if their bellies aren't filled with "Jesus" meat and drink? What about the JEWish people who preceded the arrival of "Jesus"? Are they unrighteous for having died before his arrival? Are all who die {apparently all of us who aren't just sleeping} unrighteous for having done so? Is death a testimony of a sinful life? Do bad things only happen to the unrighteous? Why do most JEWs refuse life, {"Jesus"} as you deem life to be? Can a "dead" JEW be resurrected with a belly empty of the preferred meat and drink, or do most {righteous} JEWs just miss the blessing that a "Jesus" JEW like the son of Sam gets? The questions just keep flooding in. I think that you need to think a little deeper on this topic. There are too many questions to the "Jesus" only approach of entering the pearly gates. After all, there are as many sons and daughters of YHWH as there are those who can claim GD as their father. Do these "other" children have to be rejected by their father?

....Michael

**Spying** · 11-21-2002, 06:09 AM

Given An Alternative!

Hi Thummim,

My dear friend, I love your criticisms. I love opposite points of view; after all, that is what I have been presenting to you all these months, an opposite point of view. How many Christians do you know that believe in the option for life? Christians for two thousand years have all gone meekly to their graves. As far as that goes, so have the Jews. Of course, I am not speaking of all those who have been killed or murdered or of those who have died in an accident of some sort or of those who have committed suicide. Most of these have had no choice or option for life, but how many millions have had that option for life and did choose to exercise it? None that I know of save for the possibility of those who still live from the first century. Do you know of any who have exercised the option for life?

Since there are none, this tells me that there are no believers in Christianity, but when we say that, we are forced to look around, and we must admit that there are no believers in Judaism as well. Both Christians and Jews, all go rather meekly to their graves!

In all the time that we have been communicating together, you have not presented me with an alternative, and I have not really openly given you an alternative, but you have been given an alternative now through the work of Beseder, or I should rather say, through the work of Messiah Yahushua since it is in him that we all live and work and have our being.

I know that I have more to answer to you, and I will, ELOHIM willing. Have a good day, my brother!

Sincerely, Spying

**Spying** · 11-21-2002, 07:13 AM

Fear Of Death!

Hi Beseder,

May you be blessed to exercise the option for life, and, yes, I would be honored to do so with you after we count the cost.

Here is another argument for the existence of the option for life. Paul implies in Hebrews that mankind has been enslaved through the fear of death, but that some have been delivered from this bondage:

Heb 2:15
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (KJV)

Now, some can maintain that the fear of death is removed without removing death itself, that is, our faith only serves to allow us to face our own inevitable death bravely. I don't think that this is what Paul is saying. I feel that Paul clarifies his actual belief elsewhere in this scripture:

2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our ADONAI, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of ELOHIM;
9 Who hath saved us (saved us from what?), and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Messiah Yahushua before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Yahushua Messiah, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (KJV)

Obviously, if death has been abolished, and if life and immortality is taught and believed, then there is no fear of death for the believer. This is why so many of our first century brethren could so easily and so bravely face their own martyrdom with smiles on their faces. They believed in life and immortality, and not just in a life and immortality that comes to them after death!

Phil 1:21
21 For to me to live is Messiah, and to die is gain. (KJV)

If living for the believer is Messiah, then who is Messiah?:

1 Tim 6:16
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (KJV)

So, if Messiah has immortality, and if I am a part of his body, then I also possess immortality. This is why living for Paul is Messiah because Messiah is immortality. Those who possess immortality can only die if they are killed!

Messiah possessed immortality before his death on the Cross. What did he gain through his death?

Sincerely, Spying

**Spying** · 11-21-2002, 07:51 AM

The Context Of Our Enemies!

Hi Thummim,

I know that you cannot see or understand that the great day of YAHWEH spoken of by the prophet Joel is the same day that Messiah Yahushua died. In a spiritual sense all of mankind were assembled before Messiah at the Cross. Messiah did shout the great shout from the Cross. This is the manner in which I see it, and this is the manner in which Peter saw it:

Acts 2:15-17
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith ELOHIM, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (KJV)

If the Cross was not the great battle of YAHWEH fighting for his people, then how could YAHWEH say these words through Joel?:

Joel 2:28
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: (KJV)

And Peter understand that the afterward applied right then and there to them? Peter understood the spiritual context of Joel and so do I, and that context is the Cross of Messiah.

Thummim, the real enemies of mankind are Satan, Satan's world or kingdom, and sin, and death. Any salvation from YAHWEH worthy of the NAME will provide deliverance from these enemies, and not just for one generation, but for all generations. This is why the Cross of Messiah is such a great victory. The Cross brings all these enemies together at the same time for their complete destruction through the gathering and execution of all men!

Sincerely, Spying

**beseder** · 11-21-2002, 12:34 PM

WHat did he gain

He gained children(isaiah 53)
those that would walk as their father walks. the heirs.
what else were you implying too spying, i wonder.

**Thummim** · 11-21-2002, 04:14 PM

The day of what?

...Spying, you know my thoughts on satan as a demi-god. So I will go elsewhere.

Spying writes;

I know that you cannot see or understand that the great day of YAHWEH spoken of by the prophet Joel is the same day that Messiah Yahushua died.

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...So the victory that belongs to the JEWish people is exercised in their defeat? GD then has no purpose for the day of YHWH. Because of the mistreatment of the JEWs, he gathers all people together and says, "do it to them again?". The Romans than do it again, and then christianity in many different afflictions, also do it to the JEWish people. Seeing how easy it is to bruise JEWish flesh, the nations as well disregard the whole purpose of the "Decision" to be made by the valley full of the offenders of YHWH's people. Now Spying says that the day of YHWH is over? {tough luck Yahudee?}

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2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Joel 3: 2

...So YHWH has changed his mind? Spying, my friend, your timing still needs work. Lets not abandon justice just yet.

....Michael

**Spying** · 11-22-2002, 10:23 AM

The Image And The Exact Image!

Hi Thummim,

I really liked your post entitled {Living/dead} bodies., and you are not spiritually dim witted, my friend.

I hope I am understanding you correctly. I hear you saying that man is the image of ELOHIM. I hear you saying that this image has an appointment with death. I hear you saying that each of us as the image has the possibility of resurrection. I don't think that I have heard you express any hope in the resurrection before, or have I?

I hear you saying that you don't know how to reconcile the existence of the image of ELOHIM which is present day mortal mankind and the possible existence of a behind the scenes spiritual existence of an immortal express image of YAHWEH ELOHIM which would include present day mortal mankind as well as any immortals which may be present among us who indeed still dwell in flesh and blood mortal bodies just like present day mortal mankind? Whew! That is a mouthful! And I agree, it is confusing!

Allow me to offer this possible explanation. YAHWEH ELOHIM emptied HIMSELF into a physical image of HIMSELF in order to recreate HIMSELF. The physical image which is mankind is actually only a means to an end. This end is a new creation of an ancient order or seder. The body of YAHWEH ELOHIM is actually the physical universe. YAHWEH ELOHIM does rule over the physical universe in the same manner that each of us does rule over our own bodies. Actually, I should clarify that statement. We were given physical bodies in order to learn how to rule over them, and we were given the whole earth to learn how to rule over it in like manner. However, it is ultimately our destiny through Messiah Yahushua to rule over the whole universe. The training ground for our eventual rule is this mortal life. This mortal life can be greatly shortened or greatly lengthened depending on our activity.

Messiah discovered the secret of lengthening life. He possessed immortality, but Messiah knew that the purpose of this life was not an end in itself so Messiah set out to fulfill a spiritual plan which would unify all spirit into one spiritual body. This plan is outlined in the Law of Moses, and the Psalms, and the Prophets, and this spiritual body is the whole physical universe. The Cross is the means whereby all spirit is unified in one body. All good spirit and all evil spirit are combined in the Cross, and through that suffering the evil spirit is being cleansed.

Now, this all has to work out in physical time. Future generations have to live and die. Your spirit was ordained long ago to be destined to be given to the individual named Thummim. My spirit was ordained that it be given to me. Evil spirits were forced to give to us of their own spirit in the hope that they could corrupt and control all spirit. We were taught how to do evil through the spirit of the evil ones given to us to influence us for evil. So, man in his corruption is really a trap of sorts that has the ability to catch evil spirit. All it took was the appearance of one good spirit, Messiah, who understood what was happening and what is was that was meant to be. Good will always defeat evil because evil is predictable. It is impossible to predict what love will do.

The spirit which we possess is ancient. Now, we have been given the opportunity through Messiah to clean up our spirit. Ultimately, it is cleansed whether we desire to be cleansed or not through the Cross, but you and I have been given wonderful opportunities through Messiah!

I hope this has been somewhat helpful, and I hope that you and yours have a good Sabbath Day!

Sincerely, Spying

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