Recieving The Spirit

[Scarlet]

Greetings All,

Spying, I have copied this over...thought you may wish to comment; I believe you were the one who began A Church of G-d.

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Yesterday I had the Privlidge to meet with members of the Latter-Day Saints. They seem to have my house on the list lately; I'm surprised it's not the black-list after my first meetings with them.

They talked to my mother, and she said she was sure I would be happy to talk with them; even though she didn't want to. She should have been chuckling when she said this, but she doesn't know my theology...yet (I hope).

So we talked about our assemblies, and their thought was that the one I attend, cannot have the Holy Spirit, because we have not recieved the 'Laying on of Hands' by someone in authority.

For those not familiar, they Believe that Joseph Smith (their first prophet) recieved The Ghost directly from John the Baptist and Yeshua, who they claim came down from heaven and bestowed this upon him through the Laying on of hands.

Now, I believe this to be false, that is, both Ideas.

Is the 'laying on of hands' anything besides a physical act? The Spirit is given by The Father, and not by the act of one touching another. Otherwise; what would be the point of belief if it could be obtained by touching another? Does one believe before they have hands Laid on them, and does not belief come only with The Spirit? So then would not The Spirit come before the Hands?

Anyways, I have few scriptures that I have looked at.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Here in Acts 10, did not these people receive the Ghost while he was speaking?

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Did Simeon have need to receive the 'Laying on of hands' to receive the Ghost? How is it obtained?:

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Before Messiah left, did he not say he would send the Comforter? How?...I didn't see a Laying on of hands.

So the question could be...by what authority is anyone able to receive the Ghost?

This was also the Question my mother first asked about my 'new church'; "by what authority are they aloud to baptize? wasn't Peter the First Pope?"

Sincerely,
Valid Name

[Spying]

Ordination!

Hi Scarlet,

Thank you for your comments and your question! I like to think that Messiah Yahushua started "a Church of G-d". Actually, since I left a Church of G-d, I have encountered your mother's attitude about authority just about every where I have gone.

This has always been my perspective: Each of us have a one on one relationship with Messiah Yahushua. It is his spirit that draws us, and it is through his spirit that we are confirmed in the faith. We need no human agency or individual between Messiah and ourselves. Messiah gives his spirit to those who obey him. This reasoning is based upon the story of Eldad and Medad (Numbers 11:29). YAHWEH ELOHIM did pour out HIS spirit upon all flesh (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:16-17). The Saints or the Elect are the first to obey. Can we obey without the spirit? No, we cannot. So, the giving of the spirit is first, then comes obedience. All eventually will be given the spirit so ultimately all will obey.

Think of our world in this manner. It is the sleeping body of Messiah. This body is once again beginning to awaken from a deep sleep. Right now the body is sluggish. Right now the body is just beginning to stretch, but we are not yet fully awake. It is still twilight zone for the body. Some of the cells in the body are more active than others, but each cell is controlled by the head through the spirit of the body. So, your authority in the body comes from Messiah and not from anyone else. You will accomplish the work that Messiah has ordained that you accomplish in the body, and no man can hinder that work so as to make it void. In other words, I don't have the authority to make your work void, and you do not have the authority to make void my work.

Now, while the above is true, we must all remember that we are a part of a body. The body does have organization and structure with a role for every part of the body, and Messiah has given his body instructions which involve a vast amount of authority. Each cell is awakened in order to help awaken other cells. This is why we teach and preach. We sprinkle the spirit when we teach and preach. Do you get a sense of how the sprinkling works? You should know because it happened to you, and it also happened to me. I do actually understand very little about the laying on of hands. I suspect that it is part of the ritual of sacrifice by which the offerings were offered upon the altar by the priesthood. Maybe the laying on of hands is our being salting with salt (Leviticus 2:13)? This could account for the gifts of the spirit that come to us with the laying on of hands.

Each believer has the authority from Messiah to baptize, and every believer is a priest. You position in the body is based upon your work, and your authority comes through and in your service to the body. In other words, your shoes identify your work. All have been ordained by Messiah to accomplish HIS work (John 15:16), and Messiah Yahushua is once again ordaining.

Sincerely, Spying

[Scarlet]

Meeting the Approval

Greetings Spying,

Thank you for the reply. I believe the problem we have is that 'Christianity' doesn't see the apostacy. So they all seem to claim authority directly from the apostles.

I have always thought: If a man were stranded on a desert Island with a bible, would he be taught by Messiah? Well, Messiah is the Word, so yes indeed eh?

This Story of the Pharisees comes to mind often:

John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

Well, tommorrow I meet with them again, it should be fun. Hey, job interview tommorrow as well...neat.

About the Laying on of hands; Perhaps it has something to do with the laying of hands on the head of the sacrifice. Who knows...

Speaking of LDS, have you seen the error in 3 Nephi 8:5? I showed this to my visitors...I don't think they are going to like me for long...

Peace,
Valid Name

[Spying]

Be Blessed In Your Meetings!

Hi Valid Name,

May the spirit of YAHWEH be with you in your discussions with the Mormons. Remember to be gentle with them so that perhaps you can pull them from the fire, and remember to be as humble as possible with them since they are sent forth not to be taught, but to teach (Doctrine & Covenants 43:15)!

No, I did not notice the "fourth day" in 3 Nephi 8:5 as opposed to the fourteenth day before you called it to my attention. I hope this is what you are referring to?

Here is some more ammo from 3 Nephi which you can humbly question them about. Tithing is commanded in the Law of Moses. 3 Nephi states in a number of places that the whole law is fulfilled in Messiah:

3 Nephi 15:4
4. Behold, I say unto you that the law is fulfilled that was given unto Moses.

3 Nephi 15:5
5. ..........the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfill the law; therefore, it hath an end.

3 Nephi 15:8-9
8. For behold, the covenant which I have made with my people is not all fulfilled; but the law which was given unto Moses hath an end in me.
9. Behold, I am the law,......

The above quoted words are attributed to Messiah Yahushua. Now, turn to 3 Nephi 25:4

4. Remember ye the law of Moses, my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

These words are also attributed to Messiah as he supposedly taught the Nephites the words of Malachi. Now, why, Mr. Mormon, this particular teaching? If all the law hath an end in Messiah, why must you remember any part of it?

It is not by coincidence that Mr. Mormon wants the book of Malachi given to the Nephites through Messiah Yahushua (3 Nephi 24 & 25). How else would future Mormons be motivated to bring their tithes and offerings for the building of their temples and the maintenance of their priesthood if the whole law has an end in Messiah? There is one part of the Torah of Moses that most churches deem essential in some fashion. Please, little children, bring your tithes and your offerings.

Messiah Yahushua is the EliYAH spoken of by the prophet Malachi. That prophet (EliYAH) is not Joseph Smith, nor is Joseph Smith, the Prophet! Messiah did come to turn our hearts to our Fathers, and their hearts to us. There are two Fathers: YAHWEH ELOHIM and Satan (John 8:44, John 17:25-26). The Mormons learn very little about these Fathers being baptized for their dead relatives all the time believing that Joseph Smith is the Prophet!

Sincerely, Spying