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**Antotiyah** · 09-23-2002, 03:22 PM

more on LOVE now

blessings to all
I have given up the Truth of love , of the heart for a little while to set things beseder(in order)
is everything beseder now?
If not, AntotiYah will go back to beseder.

I hate the knowledge of the head! it puffs! and thats what has been happening. So beseder came in as "mr.knowledge man" fighting against puffyness to show one of us here that has not offended but pushed AntotiYah to be beseder.

One may have suggested that love is weak, or blind.
yes, in some cases, However, with the direstion of HAshem, and not ourselves, LOVE is truth!
I dont need a book to read about Hashem, I dont need a book to know hashem. ALL i need is His Spirit, then Love Him, and He will guide me by the hand of my heart. TRUE WISDOM will seep in there.
A wisdom that holds back the destruction of peoples souls and gives them truth.
However, many people's consciences are ceared, not listening to the heart- nor anyone else that is trying to help them listen to it.
NO! they are led by their own ignorant logic.
If they understood anything, they would not speak
However, these people see themselves waaay high, over people, thinking they KNOW because either they have lived longer or because they "KNOW" things to be a certain way.
OH, limited human brain that its capacity is to fit not even one grain of dust, give up, and let your limitness soul know the truth and let that speak- not your foul stenched mind.

shalom all
MTZVA

**Thummim** · 09-23-2002, 07:32 PM

Don't trust pointing fingers.

antotiyah "or beseder",

...To you, the JEWs did it. But I really think that they had it done to them by the faith of christians who put together a book, supposedly having the honor afforded the tanakh by YHWH, that didn't even include the name of YHWH in its pages, even once. Was this a conscious choice by {all} of the NT's authors? Hashem to christianity, is the name of "Jesus". Is that because it is so obvious, that the letters "Y"-"H"-"W"-"H" come from the name of YaHudah, making the name of the GD of all JEWs, a little too JEWish? Jesus was executed for violating Roman law, something he chose not to fight. From what I infer from reading the christian book, he could have beaten the charges if he had wanted to. After all, Pilate was convinced that he was innocent. Did Jesus know what hurt he would put upon the JEWish people with his lust for the title of "Messiah". And still he couldn't deliver Jerusalem, which is what the "pierced servant of Zech. 12: 8 - 14 does. A blessing for a blessing, a curse for a curse. Which of these did "Jesus" give to the JEWish people, if in fact he was even a real person, and not just a story told by mostly gentiles? There were many messiahs running about at that time. Given a righteous people {Isa. 44: 22} whose Eloheem promises to never be wroth with them again, {Isa. 54: 9} what then was the purpose of "Jesus"? I look, and I see a curse! I wait for a blessing in my messiah.

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And I will encamp about mine house because of the army, because of him that passeth by, and because of him that returneth: and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes. Zech 9: 8

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...Did YHWH have to be convinced of the hurt of his people? Where does his blindness come from? Can YHWH have a revelation concerning his people?

...A revelation like, "they are now righteous" must follow the messiah {one who comes to a kingdom upon the earth to reign upon Davids throne} in every text that I read from the tanakh. {"reading Isa. 53", that the people are made righteous is an intercessors purpose, isn't it?} Did it ever occur to you, that the Romans {and the christians} might be far more guilty than the JEWish people, of the slaughter of JEWs? Of course, one could choose to die, but most didn't. I do agree that not refutting "Kinghood" would make the Romans madder than hell. But it is simple enough to escape this charge. Perhaps that was Pilates amazment, that "Jesus" chose not to refute it. So why are all JEWs accused by a multitude of christians, of being guilty in causing the death of "Jesus"? Is this what the churches teach? What I think, Antonio, is that you have fallen in with the wrong crowd. You are on the wrong end of the pointing finger. A little love would show you which end, is the righteous end of the finger.

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25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mat. 22: 25

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15: 6

---> So the christians wrote, and so they did.

....Michael

**Antotiyah** · 09-24-2002, 07:35 AM

ROMANS! BUT christians?? and Jews??

Hi thummim, i see it is VERY EASY for you to put the blame on what you call "christians" and what you see as "christianity".
You indeed have been blinded.
A jew is a jew you say.
As i have asked you before, "who is a jew?"
your answer seems to include all, even those athiest who are no where near as "good" as some gentiles.
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW who a jew is!
Thats a shame! WHY??
Because you are infected tremendously by the affect of the BY NAME given to our people.
jews believing in Homosexuality, that Hashem is beseder with such a thing? HA! They are NO TRUE Yehudim at all!
it is one to know that homosexuality is wrong and that a jew has a problem fighting it off- and trying totally to change his ways before hashem. However, to engage, and to indulge in such an act saying to yourself while pounding your chest before everyone, " Hashem is not against us!"
You have a problem! and this is the thought of the many "JEWS" here today. MISHKENOT!
............................................
Christians:
I know what a moslem is, a moslem is one that follows their book.
I dont call all people who call themselves moslems, Moslems.
sure, they can call themselves that- that is what they are mostly affiliated with, but is it who they are, thummim?
These people are not governed by that title, "moslem"= one who submits.
No! they themselves govern the title to what they want it to be.
The same with these so-called Jews!
OPEN YOUR EYES!
NOT ALL who are christian are Christian
CANT YOU UNDERSTAND?
HAshem was filled with greif because He made adam. However, wasnt adam made in his image? and ALL of man carried the title man- however, there were the righteous ones amoung them. NOACH was one, and he and his family was saved.BUT IT WAS MAN, that brought down his race and name because of his collective wickedness. The same with Yehudah v'Israel.
HASHEM was infuriated with Isra'el and Yehudah and he carried out his plans with them. however, he did not destroy them because of what Thummim??
Because of his promise to Avraham.
And there will arise a righteous people out of the Israelis and yehudim he spared.
I like the way you go for hayehudat bTNch Thummim, however, you go to far in your "interpretation". you judge by mere human intellect what is of the SPirit... and even this concept your human logic fails to understand.
Who twisted up the view you hold of christianity that is also shared with so many? these pseudo christians, the same as with these pseudo-jews.
Messiah was not a mere man(note to SPYING) "if he could be called a man"(FLAV.JOSEPHUS). His flesh did not decay as by means of death. NOPE! He "is only sleeping"(he had to die however the process through out the WHOLE thing was and still is abnormal)...the same as with Lazarus back to Dovid back to Avraham- they are sleeping.
their bodies have been affected by where they are sleeping, however, Messiah's body has not- what does that mean about his "flesh"? it is not "human" it is devine. You fail in scripture too many times thummim.
You can sure hold up your breasts(girdle- arrogance) thummim, but even tanach slaps you in the face. You are a jew?? well then stay in your rebellion. How many times have Jews have hated jews and stood against every one else thummim. hmmmm?
MANY TIMES! A jew doesnt even know who a jew is and are quick to talk about them. OUR people have formed a religion of rebellion.
at least if they had stayed with only the writtings of Hillel they ould have had a chance. but no, they even twist this good pharisee's name by the way they act and what they follow.
THIS IS how a name is twisted, BY ITS OWN PEOPLE!
the Jews have MADE themselves a BY NAME from all that are wicked amoungst us. EVERYONE looks at us and see's a liar, and a theif...at least the arabs do and they have reason. It was hard for me to gain the trust of a few arabs because of that reason, they put me as an exception, however, they still have the same view about jews when i was hoping to change their view about us.
So you easily blame Messiah, ok
I could blame Hillel for one, but i wont. he was a good man.
and the world will blame ELOHEINU(our GD)
You get it?

YOU twist the name!
not christianity. and those peoples(christians, moslems and even us ) put more twistings to our good word.
all it does is show HOW WEAK you Jews are...while on Hashems side We Hebrews are strong! I will hold on to the BY NAME no longer, I SEE!
MTZVA!

So twist my words as how you have been affected first by psedo-christianity and then psedo-tanach, the rebellion of us.
You under estimate messiah, and you under estimate ha'kadoshim melechot shomayim, thummim. We are no one, but you really under estimate us. Yuo dont even understand tanach as you should, the rabbis over in Yisrael know the truth, they just cant seem to break free. i pitty them. the people the rabbis teach dont know the truth, i pitty them because they hold strong to what the rabbi's say and to what the rabbi's have written. Thye dont read tanach themselves. But the rabbis know- concerning this, RAbbis in Israel will school you! concerning this, we kadoshim will reveal them.
You , along with all these zealous gentile converts to judaism need alot to learn if you are to call yourself "wise" at least in human knowledge.

**Thummim** · 09-24-2002, 11:27 AM

JEWs?

Antotiyah,

...You wrant about my misuse of scripture. And yet you do not use a single scriptural reference above. I seek only to defend the JEWish people from the assault against our name. I put the name of YHWH between our enemies and ourselves. I trust that there is justice in discovering just where the name of YHWH comes from. While christians love to divide themselves up into many {separately saved} sects, Most of us JEWs are content to be survivors of the constant assault upon our name. How many ways have you yourself, to divide us up? You seem to know who isn't JEWish. Has your Eloheem taught you this bit of reasoning? Deciding to become a JEW is a much more difficult choice than deciding to become a christian. I except that those who find it good to be JEWish have certainly looked deeper into their souls than a man {or woman} would in deciding to be a christian. Your words sound like those of one who doesn't want to be JEWish, you yourself trying to disolve the JEWish people with your intelect rather than celebrating anything JEWish. I also asked you to define {who is a JEW} after answering this question for you. As I recall, you never answered me unless your answer is that no one is JEWish. Has your faith convinced you that only good christians can be true JEWs? Or do you believe that JEWs who don't believe in "Jesus", cannot be saved, as do many christians? If so, we've found someone who we can be sure isn't JEWish. This view would exposes a curse carried in your heart, against the JEWish people. {whomever you think we are}. I confess that the answer is not in our genes. It seems that we come together through mutual needs, somewhat like christians do. I believe that walking in the name of YHWH will yeild a blessing to all JEWs through finding the name of the JEWish soul to be a little higher than all other names through the name of YHWH. {something that is missed by this worlds peoples} But you can walk in the name of "Jesus" rather than the name of YHWH, if it pleases you.

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5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of YHWH Elohenu for ever and ever. Mi. 4: 5

4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of YHWH, in the majesty of the name of YHWH Elohenu; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Mi. 5: 4

--> {this isn't talking about "Jesus" who himself doesn't build upon the name of YHWH, like 65 of the 66 books of the tanakh do}

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...I work to make this vision a reality. Millions of JEWs died only because of "our" name {you're a JEW!, spoken with a pointing finger at them}. I do believe that those of us on this end of the pointing finger are indeed JEWs. Now I have found a name for all JEWs to defend themselves with when charged by name. If christianity had any salvation for the JEWish people in the name of "Jesus", it would have been seen working when needed. We have all seen the truth about this faith! Christianity be damned in anytime of JEWish need.

...AntotiYah, do you even know if you yourself are a JEW?

**Antotiyah** · 09-24-2002, 01:45 PM

YHWH

I use no scriptual refference huh?
I guess you dont know tanach- cuz scriptual reffrerence is just about in everything I write. See, I have many scriptures in mind and wont write them down sometimes- this is alluding to scriptures, im trying to hint you at them without making it obvious, that way its much more appreciated.

*********A jew is one who lives Torah, point blank! All of this goes in todays meaning of a jew.
I dont want to be Jew?
haha, you misinterpret me as you do tanach.
back then it was just a tribe. Now its a 'by name' for all hebrews.
Do you even know what a by name is?
truth is, i dont care for the by name- i know of which tribe i am from, and no it isnt by some "human" revelation that i know this.
Since we have no records the hebrews have lost their toldot(geneologies). However, Hashem is awakening all HIS people to their tribe. we called ourselves jew because everyone else called us that- not us. But we hebrews have destroyed our name.
im sticking to one core scripture for the moment, do you know what it is?
What has Jesus done for us Jews is another question i havent answered for you, i havent answered many questions because I want hashem to show you himself. Intellect, is another thing that you reffer too thummim. You fail to realize that intellect is something I am not for. I would rather be the dumbest man ever to live to tell the truth- just as long as I am connected to Hashem in the purest of faith's.
If i were like this, i could easily talk with hashem, grow and grow, I would hear his voice much more than i would listen to my own.
I would stop when he just whispers "be still" and move when he says move.
you have no idea of what is sound orthodox torah, as hardly does any "jew" save for chassidim, and not all of them either.
sound orthodox torah is Moshiach's torah, and this is correct messianic torah. We "jew's" divide ourselves as does any other religion thummim. "I am Reform". "oh yeah, well i am orthodox", "well, i am conservative", "well, i am athiest and do not believe in your elohim", "well i am mr.zen master bhuddist jew."
So we jews see ourself one huh?
hmm, how about the many that would call me "mamzeer gadol"
we are at war against either thummim. YOU FAIL to realize this.
yes thummim, how about the house at war against eachother will be divided, what do you think has happened with this Judaism of jews and the Jews of Judaism??

The Chofetz Chaim has stated and proven beyond any doubt that the sin of loshon hora, which was the cause of the Second Temple’s destruction, is the factor which up to this day has prevented us from being redeemed through Moshiach’s arrival. The question is, why? How could this one sin be so destructive?
To understand the severity of loshon hora and its ramifications, one must first understand the judicial system in Heaven through which the Jewish People are judged. The Chofetz Chaim explains that the Heavenly judicial process is initiated by words which Jews speak on this world. Our negative conversations are the key which opens the door for Satan to prosecute.

The Chofetz Chaim offers a second reason why loshon hora is so damaging. Because loshon hora utilizes the power of speech to do its damage, it corrupts this faculty and prevents our Torah and tefillah (prayer) from ascending Heavenward. The Chofetz Chaim envisions the sacred words that pour forth from a mouth corrupted by loshon hora. He sees them heading upward toward our “Heavenly bank accounts,” but never quite getting there. We believe we have accomplished something spiritually, but that’s not what happened. The Chofetz Chaim says, “All the words of Torah and tefillah are hanging somewhere between heaven and earth, suspended in the air.” He concludes: if our Torah and tefillah are not being credited to us, then, “From where will we acquire the necessary merit to bring Mashiach and the Final Redemption?”

Us hebrews KNOW that something is wrong thummim, however, you say that all is well. We are forgiven huh? since the time of Cyrus huh? Go and debate with our fellow jews on this- maybe they will agree with only when i am present. maybe they will agree with you if they know that this is a fight against kehillim Moshiach.
I find that we have been forgiven through Moshiach, and yes, even the tsaddukim(sadducees) that crucified Moshiach. You just fail to see how.

lastly
I dont hold on to the name huh?
You seem to think that hashem is a jew? or that he is Jewish- thats what i read from the first times you have written, on Yah or not yah.
That Hashems name is the basis for YHWDH, well, you seem to want to fight the fact that Jesus name in the hebrew has the same factions to the name. [email protected] i dont care to stress this even further- if you dont wish to see then stay blind.
and one more thing
what name delivered the people of Israel many times. Who was the deliverer(men)?

MTZVA

**Thummim** · 09-24-2002, 10:50 PM

If the name is JEW {Judah?}

AntotiYah writes;

That Hashems name is the basis for YHWDH, well, you seem to want to fight the fact that Jesus name in the hebrew has the same factions to the name. [email protected] i dont care to stress this even further- if you dont wish to see then stay blind.

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...On the name of Hashem, first comes the name that it is taken from, which is "YaHudaH". An incomplete name does not pre-exist the complete name. And "Jesus" is only a man of whom, had he not been born, the JEWish people would have been a lot better off. Even molech hasn't burned as many JEWish children as "Jesus". Our rabbi is convinced that a messianic JEW is a christian. In your case, I am certainly convinced as well. You have about as much concern for we who call ourselves JEWs, as any New Testement reading christian usually does. You blame the JEWish people for our own hurt at the hands of those who call themselves "good christians". But good christians have a long history of spilling JEWish blood. Of all the faiths in this world, none can compete with christian history in this endeaver. As to blindness, you cannot tell the difference between a curse and a blessing. What your faith brings to us JEWs, is not a blessing. I wouldn't trade my idea of what a messiah is, for yours, for anything that your faith can give you. I cannot bear the shame of what the christian faith is to me. Once having touched it in the middle sixties, I shake it off like filth. I shudder to think that I once believed as you. {well not quite, I held the JEWish people in higher esteem than you seem too, or I might have continued in that faith} I can see how a christian becomes a JEW, but how does a JEW ever become a christian? Its like sticking out ones tongue at the many JEWs that die by professed christian hands, while still thinking that it is ok for their executioners go home to celebrate christmas. I honestly think that I am more righteous than "Jesus", no matter what my worst sin might be. Do you know that some A..H's try to convince me that hitlers JEWs were not JEWs at all.

....Michael

**Antotiyah** · 09-25-2002, 11:30 AM

HUH

Thummim, are you saying that because i am a CHRISTIAN, another by name made for haAm b' Hashem, I dont have esteem for my people. haha, thummim you are indeed in great error. You have no idea about my personal dealings with my people.

I have no one, not even these christians, wanna know why?
I dont see any good 'christians' that abound in number.
I see a handful(literally) out of the many 'christians' that exist.
I speak with many messianics, it looks like their in the right spot, however, they are not, their love is gone, their too focused on knowledge while these christians are too focused on either knowledge or faith without works.

You dont know who a Christian is the same way you dont know who a jew is.
These things you fail to understand.
You are a GER thummim, not a Jew.
and you call yourself Jew, it just shows that you dont know what a jew is. Im glad that you have love for us, greater than you do your own kind. But a JEW is a JEW, you reformed judaic judaism people changed the whole faith after the destruction of the temple- YUP- after the first generation of those that survived it died out, you with my brothers(JEWS) changed the whole structure, so your belief falls flat on face...
well, since you do say that you read tanach, i'll let you be exepmt
However, i know your rabbi was taught by a rabbi and did not have his personal study to KNOW before this, so he is one that has changed his HILLEL like belief and has went HELLEN-SHAMMAI.
PLEASE thummim, you really under-estimate me and the kadoshim.
REALLY. Too bad we wont dish out everything we have- our love prevents us too. And you dont understand the factions of this love.
You can twist it too, as you always do.
BUT, i love the jewish people, unbelievers and believers alike, hehe, it is the unbelievers that push me and kick me down without me even saying anything. they call me MAmzer gadol in the bad context, and i didnt even open my mouth. All we do is discuss torah and all of a sudden here comes the insults. Such a shame on who's part? not on christianities part by us Yehudiim.

and you must be speaking of the greecian-romanized "christians" that spilled blood, against who??? ARABS, YES US JEWS, and who else, hmmmmmm, all those that didnt believe in JESUS the same way they did. How many christians fled to lebanon when the crusades arrived, they hid everything they had in lebanon, etc. And the same with Jews, they fled to lebanon. There werent any fights in lebanon between the True christians and jews that were there. These christians and jews fled those fake christians that were more in abundance that the jews and christians in lebanon combined.
Who is on a blaming trip here, hmmmm, it looks like thummim is the winner! You blame every body thummim, hmmm, well who knows you are probably a descendant from those that crucified Jesus. well guess what GER, you are at blame too.
All these GERim want to be Jews then have the odacity to say that there is no jewish blood and to somehow place themselves higher than us. Misken misken thummim
You misunderstand Tanach BIG TIME

NO MORE that is need to be said

MTZVA- if you even follow this mr. rabbinical ger

**Thummim** · 09-25-2002, 12:09 PM

Trading insults?

...AntotiYah, enough insults. We could go on shouting at each other in our posts, but all we would accomplish is making noise along with teasing up many hard feelings.

AntotiYah writes:

You misunderstand Tanach BIG TIME

...Why then don't you use the tanakh and correct me? That's what I wait for. Show me how much I misunderstand. I always lay a foundation to my thoughts, with many scriptural references drawn from the tanakh. Anybody reading my posts will notice this difference between your posts and mine. Mine are full of scripture as I use them to make my case. What do I misunderstand? Prove to me that your understanding is better than mine. Your greatest weakness is in not using the tanakh to back up your arguments. Anyone can waggle their tongue.

....Michael

**Antotiyah** · 09-25-2002, 02:44 PM

Thanks, I was waiting for you to say that, all of that
hehehe
be back soon
MTZVA

**Thummim** · 09-25-2002, 09:56 PM

Twisting it?

AntotiYah writes;

You can twist it too, as you always do.
BUT, i love the jewish people, unbelievers and believers alike, hehe, it is the unbelievers that push me and kick me down without me even saying anything. they call me MAmzer gadol in the bad context, and i didnt even open my mouth. All we do is discuss torah and all of a sudden here comes the insults. Such a shame on who's part? not on christianities part by us Yehudiim.

...Are we talking about proving lineage through Jewish blood? What will the genetic markers be? I do not want to say that anyone who calls themselves a JEW is not one. Proving lineage through such tests only show a few genes traceable. There are not a lot of "JEWish" genes about that are not in the blood of all other people. Either we are all mamzirs {bastards} or none of us are. As to doing the will of YHWH, which people do it better than the JEWish people? Was the law given to the world? I think not. So if a goy {non JEW} believes himself to keep the law better than a JEW, so what? But a ger {proselyte} is also a stranger asked to keep the law of YHWH.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. Ex. 12: 49

22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am YHWH your God. Lev. 24: 22

...But there is a warning not to persue another faith given in the tanakh. To me, that includes christianity. I could give the benifit of the doubt to christians, if I could believe that the tanakh sanctioned "Jesus" as a GD to follow. But it doesn't. There are so few arguments that can support the words of the NT, that I would feel as though I had turned to worshiping the baal's or some even lesser god. You ask me, "who is a JEW" and I ask you the same question. Does that mean that I'm calling you a bastard? Is a christian a JEW? Can a JEW also be a christian or a Moslem? When is it ok to choose another faith and still be considered a JEW? When you tell me that a JEW is only one who keeps the law, I am reminded that no one has really shown themselves to be perfect in this respect. You cannot possibly believe that a goy serves YHWH's law better than a JEW, do you? Not called to the law, he is hardly required to keep it. The law belongs to the covenant that YHWH makes with his people, through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I do believe that all righteousness counts towards healing in this world. But not towards the covenant with YHWH.

...You say that I don't know who a JEW is. I say that only a JEW has a part in GD's name. I would agree that YHWH is GD of all this world, but he didn't make a covenant with it as made with the forefathers of Israel. Since the law makes no one perfect, the name of YHWH will have to merit righteousness. This must be the idea behind the words of Isaiah which declare that YHWH enters a covenant with his people like that which he made with Noah, and promises never to be angry with his people again. All Israel being righteous and the idea of everlasting salvation are only further concepts of Isaiah's logic. If you read the end of the many prophetic books of the tanakh, you will find simular sentiment. If every pot in Jerusalem is to become holy, than those who use them must be holy as well. {Zech. 14: 20, 21} That makes YaHudah a holy people. The swallowing up of the tribes of Israel {Eze. 37: 32} makes all Israel, the tribe of YaHudaH. That means all Israel is Holy as well. Zech. 14: 9 gives the name of YHWH to all in covenant with YHWH. {now only one name}

9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. Isa. 54: 9

...I assume that YHWH knows who his people are, just like the world knows "who is a JEW". Its only JEWs who fight with this question. Hashem knows his own name, and that's all that is necessary. As for me, I am told to cover a people with the name of YHWH, and I know which people I am to cover. This does not come without tremendous persuasion to me. No prophet has been told more loudly than I, of that which I am to do. I put my faith into the name of YHWH. All must be in the knowledge that the letters of Y- H- W- H come from the name of YaHudaH. The name is a righteous robe which is chosen to cover all JEWs. A garment of righteousness has been prepared. Do not be surprised if this world does not like the name of YHWH. Only the true friends of YaHudaH will.

...How we became enemies, I dont understand. At first I thought we had something in common. Perhaps it is because the name of "Jesus" cannot be defended by me. But the name of YHWH is a very jealous name and will not share a house with a competitor. We each reason differently our faiths. I doubt that we can both be right in what we believe. We will each have to wait to see which Eloheem is YHWH. {Hehehe}, are you happy because of what I said or what you reasoned that that I have said?

....Michael

**Antotiyah** · 09-26-2002, 07:13 AM

You have never had an enemy in me thummim
hehe(it seeems like everyone is using "hehe" now, good, either for mocking to a sence or in good motive)
I provoke people, sometimes i do it and dont know that i am.

as far as what you have said, you have calmed the waters that currents between our shores. I'll be setting them up under a storm again. haha
(in person, you and i probably wouldnt be going through such dialogues- just wanted to say that)
You believe that YH is GD , He is Hashem and all, He is one.
GOOD!
I believe the same- its just understanding how he is echad.
You and I have different beliefs about the PERSON of the same GD we serve, Hashem Yisroel. and indeed, in the wnd, we will see.

its cool at least that you see, using your words, how "Jesus makes himself a gd". You could teach the many christians that dont believe that.

oh well oh well, like i said, i'll be back(terminator, haha)

MTZVA

**Thummim** · 09-26-2002, 11:11 AM

Friend talk is easier.

...AntotiYah, It is good to know that we can persue our dialog with each other as friends. That is how our relationship started. Hey, the terminator lost in the end. -- tsk, tsk.

..., but there follows sequels!

....Michael

**Antotiyah** · 09-27-2002, 03:53 PM

"COME with me if you want to live" Terminator

I am terminator 2. terminator 1 died a long time ago.
and i will give myself up one day for my friends and human kind.

"The Messiah-Priest that King David foretold in Psalm 110
"N'um HaShem leAdoni" ("HaShem said to my L-rd")..."Atah
Kohen l'Olam al-Devrati Malki-Tzedek" ("You [Moshiach] are a Kohen
forever after the order of Melchizedek") Psalm (Tehilim) 110:1-7,
See especially verse 4. Moshiach is called Adoni (my L-rd here) Just
as L-rd here) just as Moshiach is called L-rd in Malachi 3:1.
This means Adon Kol Ha'aretz, L-rd of the earth (see Zechariah4:14).
the portentous priest Zechariah also identified with the name of Moshiach in Zechariah 3:8, especially "Yehoshua...ki
anshei mofet hemah ki hineni mevi es 'avdi Tzemach"
("Yehoshua...you are portentous sign-men for, behold, I will
bring forth My Servant, BRANCH.")
[See Zechariah 6:12-13]--the very name Ezra called Yeshua (Aramaic form of Yehoshua) in the book of Ezra 3:8
Zechariah 6:12-13, especially "hinei ish Tzemach shmo" ("behold the man [Yehoshua/Yeshua] his NAME is BRANCH [of David, i.e. MOSHIACH]").

Ezra 3:8. Notice that "Yehoshua" is here given in its
Aramaic form, "Yeshua."

The Jewish Bible Must Interpret Itself
The history of the Exodus is given to us in the Torah of Moses.
There we read that a whole rebellious generation passed away
leaving only a righteous remnant of two holy survivors of the
Exodus to inherit the promised life in the Holy Land: Yehoshua
(or Joshua--the Aramaic form is Yeshua--see Nehemiah 8:17) and Caleb.
This is paradigmatic history, for it provides a prophetic model
as a sign of things to come, as does the prophecy about Moshiach found in the reference to the two ominous olive trees in the book of Zechariah 4.11-14. This passage is about the two olive branches, which stand for the kingly Davidic heir (Zerubbabel) and the priestly ruler (Yehoshua or Yeshua) who together are a sign of the coming King-Priest Moshiach in Psalm 110:4.

In fact, Yehoshua (or Joshua) is himself a sign of the Moshiach, as we shall see. The fact that the Aramaic form of Yehoshua or Joshua is Yeshua [see Nehemiah 8:17] will prove very significant later when we see that the Tanakh teaches this name is to become Moshiach's personal name. "Joshua/Yeshua" is indeed one of the portentous and ominous names of "anshei mofet" ("sign-men) in the Hebrew Scriptures. [Zech 3.8]

" A rabbi might challenge this and say, "This is like telling an American that something which happened to the Pilgrims is paradigmatic of American history. Or, again, this is like saying that George Washington is a prophetic sign of the last and greatest American President! Why is one necessarily the predictive model of the other?"

Why? Because the Jewish Bible must be allowed to interpret itself. And, in the Jewish Bible, Yeshayah 49:8 is a prophecy about the coming "Yom haYeshua" ("Day of Salvation") and the new Joshua/Yeshua Moshiach who will bring it.

infers that Yehoshua or Joshua/Yeshua is in fact a sign of the
Moshiach. It was Joshua who assigned the land of the promised inheritance to the individual tribes and families. Isaiah 49:8 alludes to this activity. This key verse infers that King Moshiach, the Servant
of the L-rd, is the new Joshua, for in his own person the Moshiach
will bring the promised new life for the people, which is their
covenant inheritance.

Or a rabbi might say, "If in fact it is the one you say who is
the Prince of Peace, the new Joshua, as it were, to bring the
people out of the Golus (Exile) and into the land of eternal
Sabbath rest, then where is all the world peace the Prophets said the Moshiach would bring?" Answer: G-d did not promise peace to a world that rejects him, Rabbi. But those who receive the spiritual bris milah (covenant of circumcision) and the
justification peace the Moshiach brings are in actuality raised
to a new spiritual existence with Moshiach in anticipation of the
Olam haBa (the World to Come), and in anticipation of the
Resurrection Age and its peace. But how can we have the latter
if we refuse the former? How can we have the Olam haBa of Moshiach if we reject Moshiach's New Covenant life in the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit)?

This righteous-remnant-of-one motif reappears later in the
Servant Songs of Yeshayah (Isaiah) chapters 42-53, where an idealized Israel is called Yeshurun
Isaiah 44:2 shows that "Yeshurun" is a poetic name for Ideal
Israel.

and then is seen in counterpoint to a suffering, dying and death-conquering Moshiach, the Servant of the L-rd.
Isaiah 52:10-53:12 should be studied at length. It shows
that the Moshiach is the very "arm of G-d" and is not recognized or appreciated by Israel, but is instead cut off, pierced, and sheds his blood like a lamb of redemption, like a Pesach/Passover lamb [our Moshiach did in fact die on Pesach], making kapparah as an asham guilt offering for the people. Later, when he rises to life (the Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah 53:11 says he sees the "light," indicating resurrection from the dead), he is vindicated and G-d's people are justified, because Moshiach is G-d's righteous servant and his priestly sacrifice is accepted.

Proof of this last statement will be offered presently, when we see how the Jewish Bible ties all these prophetic strands together.

Yehoshua is a Symbol of King Moshiach
Yehoshua (Joshua, Yeshua) is called "the servant of the L-rd"
in the book of Joshua. (Joshua 24:29 calls Joshua the 'eved HaShem, the Servant of the L-rd.) (Nehemiah 8:17 calls Joshua/Yehoshua by the Aramaic form of his name, "Yeshua"). Putting these two verses together with Zechariah 3:8 we have Yeshua, the 'eved like Caleb, Joshua is also a sign-man, an ominous mofet of the King Messiah, for Joshua is an agent of chessid (e.g. in the case of the prostitute Rahab) and of wrath and judgment or condemnation, in the holy war of G-d against the seven wicked nations in the Promised Land. The prophet Daniel, who also speaks of both the chessid of chayei olam (eternal life) as well as judgment and condemnation, (Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to chayei olam (eternal life), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (i.e. Gehinnom, damnation)." See Rosh HaShanah 16B in the Talmud.) gives us a glorious apocalyptic picture of this coming King, this Moshiach of the Clouds. (Daniel 7:13-14 "Visions I saw in the night, and, behold, one like a son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages, should worship him [i.e. give divine reverence to Moshiach, who is not an idol, for Daniel's companions refuse to give divine reverence to idols--using the same verb in Daniel 3:18]: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom which shall not be destroyed." So this passage shows that Moshiach is not a mere man, for Moshiach is reverenced as deity, even though idols are not so treated ...see the exact same word in Daniel 3:18 and Daniel 7:14. For Talmudic indications that Daniel 7:13-14 is a prophecy about Moshiach, see Sanhedrin 96b-97a, 98a, etc.)
Furthermore, Devorim (Deuteronomy) 18:15-19(This prophecy shows that Moshiach will be a Prophet like Moses.)
foretells the prophet like Moses that G-d will raise up in the Promised Land, the Prophet-Moshiach.
A rabbi might interrupt right here and say, "Wait! This reference to a Moses-like prophet who is to come is not necessarily referring to the Moshiach!"
Again, let the Jewish Bible interpret itself: Yeshayah(Isaiah 42:15-16; 49:9-10 The author of Chronicles shares the same heightened expectation of the coming of Moshiach that we find in other post-Exilic Biblical authors like Haggai and Zechariah. The chronicler's use of Torah allusions describing Moses and Joshua, especially his use of these as a paradigm for his portrait of David and Solomon-- their idealized portrait itself fraught with Messianic expectation--further substantiates the claim that the Tanakh teaches this: the Moshiach will be a new Moses, an even greater successor to Moses than was Joshua to Moses or Solomon to David. So the Brit Chadasha (New Covenant Jewish Scriptures) correctly follows the teaching of the Tanakh that Deuteronomy 18:15-19 finds its ultimate reference in the Moshiach. See Acts 3:22-23.)infers that the Moshiach will be a new Moses. Therefore, don't argue with man, argue with G-d's Holy Word. Argue with Isaiah 42:15-16;49:9-10.

The immediate (not final) fulfillment of the Deuteronomy 18:15-19 prophecy is Yehoshua (Joshua/Yeshua). The Sages (Avot 1:1) tell us that Moses accepted the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua/Yeshua. Not only that, Joshua/Yeshua is indeed a Moses-like prophet, because it was to Joshua and not to Moses that G-d gave the revelation of the boundaries of the tribal portions of Eretz Yisrael. Moses died in the wilderness because he angered G-d, but Joshua led the people victoriously to the promised new life in the Holy Land. Thus, Joshua (the Aramaic form of whose name is Yeshua--see Nehemiah 8:17) is a prophetic sign of the King Moshiach, the ruler from among his brethren who, like Moses would lead Israel's true faithful remnant all the way from the rebellious unbelief resulting in death in the wilderness to the eternal salvation and Messianic deliverance foreshadowed in the book of Joshua.

I have much much more comming
"Im moving across the Atlantic and im only getting my feet wet"
(Tito Arturo)

MTZVA

**Antotiyah** · 09-27-2002, 04:03 PM

That the rabbis were not ignorant of the Messianic interpretation of the Torah given above is shown in the Midrash on the Psalms (translated by Rabbi William Braude, Yale University Press, 1959, Volume 1, pages 4-7). In this rabbinic work we find Dovid explicitly likened to Moses and, on the same page, Devarim (Deuteronomy) 18:15 is quoted, `A prophet will the L-rd thy G-d raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me (Moses).That Deuteronomy 18:15, then, is a Messianic prophecy fulfllled ultimately in the Moshiach, the Son of Dovid, should be clear enough. Confirmation comes in II Samuel 7:16 and in Isaiah 11:1-5 which tell us that David's "house" will bring the Moshiach, and also in Ezekiel 37:25, which gives us the title of Moshiach, "David my Servant".

The deduction of the thoughtful, then, is that Rashi's interpretation of Deuteronomy 18:19 is all the more frightening. According to Rashi, the text of this passage means that unbelievers will be put to death. So it is no light thing to refuse to believe in the divine clues to the identity of the Moshiach set forth in the Tanakh. That is why the following material should be read prayerfully, with careful study of each Biblical reference in the Tanakh. Tanakh-refusers, take heed!

Attempting to Evade the Jewish Bible Is Futile
Those who use the Holocaust to justify either their atheism or
their tendency to devalue the authority of the Jewish Bible
should remember that Satan, not G-d, is the author of Nazism and anti- Semitism. But when Jewish men like Karl Marx and Trotsky laughed at the Biblical prospect of a future punishment (in spite of the doctrine of Gehinnom or hell indicated by texts like that of Daniel 12:2 ), and when they ridiculed Holy Scripture like Deuteronomy 18:19 , such folly (by more than a few who were ostensibly Jews) contributed, in league with the universal Marxist cry for bloody revolution, to give many Europeans dangerous misperceptions about the Jewish people as a whole. The erroneous but nonetheless terrifying specter of Tanakh-rejecting Jews in control of the Communist Parties together with the Right-wing European reaction to this, fueling latent Western anti-Semitism, helped provide Hitler with his demonic opportunity and Satanic rationale.

And, pardon the Biblical Jewish expression, but it was particularly here that many of the clergymen of the world and even many of the rabbis of the shul were all too often worthless prophetic "watch dogs," as it says, "mute [watch] dogs that cannot bark," that "lie around and dream."
Isaiah 56:10
While the coming storm of "the time of trouble for Jacob".( Jeremiah 30:7) threatened ominously on the horizon, many of the clergymen of the world and many of the rabbis of the shul spent more effort meditating on extra-Biblical thought than on the Jewish Prophets. G-d says, "I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock. (Ezekiel 34:10) The point is not that proper rabbinic Biblical exegesis and homiletics would have averted the Holocaust or that the 6,000,000 somehow could have escaped Hitler's Satanic trap. The point is that prophets and preachers are given by G-d for giving warning, and the warning is in the Jewish Scriptures and not in the tradition or theology of men. And woe to the preacher, Jewish or not, who does not preach the Jewish Scriptures. This also applies to those who claim to know the Moshiach but do not love his ancient people and pay only
empty lip service to the task of feeding his Jewish lambs the
pure milk of the Word of G-d.

To illustrate this point, if one's loved one is standing on the train tracks, one may not be able to prevent disaster, but one certainly cannot justify not even shouting, "Here comes the train!" The Tanakh speaks about the Holocaust "train" coming in Deuteronomy and Jeremiah and many other places, but there is a famine of hearing the Word of G-d, because preachers and rabbis have not carried out their responsibility to preach the Word, especially the word of warning regarding the coming Messianic tribulation.

Those who say they are "orthodox" because they ascribe to the "Principles of the Faith" of Maimonides should remember that Maimonides didn't exposit the pure Torah and the Prophets; Maimonides attempted to syncretize Biblical and Aristotelian thought. Are we required to believe that this Maimonidean hybrid, even if it contradicts the Jewish Bible, is, in any sense of the word, "representative" of Judaism?

Instead of preaching the pure apocalyptic Torah Judaism of Moses and the Prophets, the clergymen of the world and the rabbis of the shul have too often retreated to the liberal seminaries and the Talmudic yeshivas. Instead of warning the Jewish people (like Jeremiah and Esther's Mordecai) of the coming tribulation, the blind go leading the blind, even in the face of Satan's yawning pit. Thank G-d that Jeremiah foresaw the end-time fulfillment of the true trans-cultural Judaism of Moshiach and the eschatological leaders that G-d would raise up in the latter days: "Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding“. [22] Jeremiah 3:15
Are not terrifying Torah readings like Deuteronomy 18:19
and 28:15-68 with their horrifying modern historical illustrations enough to wake up anyone, even liberal clergymen, even their liberal congregants, even "orthodox" clergy and rabbis?
At just this point someone might try to "strain out a gnat,"
charging us with misconstruing the Biblical context. Someone
might then "swallow the camel" by pretending that this betrayal
of the Jewish Bible by religious leaders has not happened or that
there have not been horrendous consequences. Or someone might smile and say, "I don't believe that G-d would allow people
to throw themselves into eternal torment in Gehinnom. Nor, for
that matter, do I believe that the Bible, with its absolutes,
means what it says."
Marx didn't believe Biblical absolutes, either. Neither did Trotsky, nor Hitler, nor Pontius Pilate. Pilate says to Moshiach, "What is Emes (Truth)?" according to John 18:38.
Would anyone like to share their willfully wicked opinion (and their company) forever? Here a rabbi might say, "If there is anyone 'willfully wicked,' it is those so-called `church members' who stood by silently as Jews went to the Holocaust." True, but
Corrie ten Boom (see The Hiding Place, Fleming Revell, 1971)
didn't stand by silently. Nor did others. As far as the fate of
those who died in the Holocaust is concerned, G-d knows those who are his. You can be sure of that. And as far as the true followers of Moshiach are concerned, it is clear that there are "weeds" marked for Gehinnom, even among the "wheat" of Moshiach's true followers (see Mt.13:24-30; 7:21-23, etc). All will have to stand before the Moshiach (Rom.14:10), who endured his own personal Holocaust for the salvation of his Jewish people. But we're dealing with a different problem here. We're dealing with the issue of the reality of a Holy G-d and the reality of Satanic evil and hellish curses, using the Holocaust to refute scoffers and doubters, and with all severity urging everyone, Jew and non-Jew alike, clergyman and rabbi alike, to take a more serious look at the Biblical Moshiach in the Tanakh, knowing that many will casually ignore the Word and not even deign to look up the Tanakh references , so willfully wicked is the world.

"But wait," you say. "Now you're bringing in original sin (`Willfully wicked'), aren't you? I don't believe in it! What kind of Gd would let the whole of humanity corrupt itself?" Read Psalm 51:5(7), 10(12)
on natural, fallen, human depravity and the needed spiritual bris milah of regeneration and complete inward spiritual change. Gd is perfect and He created mankind good in His perfect image. It was no fault of Gd's that a free humanity used its freedom (both primordially and perennially) to corrupt itself. Gd has fully revealed a new humanity not only in the historic people (in whom his Word has been enfleshed), but also in his incorruptible, G-d-mediating, Word. The Holy One of Israel commands us to yield to the new creation of his personal Word, his Moshiach, by a new spiritual birth into Moshiach's new humanity, the people of the Malchut haShomayim (the Kingdom of Heaven). "What about the good and innocent people who never even heard about the Moshiach?" you ask.
This is a loaded question, assuming as it does (and the Jewish Bible does not) that good and innocent people exist, and, since they presumeably are so good and innocent, don't need to hear about any Redeemer anyway, really, since they are not themselves sinful either in what they do or in what they are, and do not need redemption from sin's bondage and penalty. See, however, Psalm 14:3, which says, "there is no one that does good."Psalm 14:3

However there is Rummin 2.12-15
|12|GD will punish the gentiles when they sin, even though they never had GD’s written law. And he will punish the Jews when ` they sin, for they do have the law.
|13| For it is not the Shomei HaTorah (hearers of the Law of Moshe Rabbeinu) who are the tzaddikim who are accounted to be YITZDAK IM HASHEM ("justified with G-d" IYOV 25:4). It is the Shomrei HaTorah (the keepers of the Law of Moshe Rabbeinu) who will be counted to be YITZDAK IM HASHEM.
|14| For when Goyim, who have not the Torah, do by nature what the Torah requires, they not having the Torah are the torah for themselves,
|15| in that they demonstrate the Torah at work [YIRMEYAH 31:33], the Torah written in their levavot, their matzpun (conscience) also bearing witness, while their thoughts bring accusation or even make defense among themselves

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