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  • The Wave Sheaf


    First I will thank ImAHebrew for inviting me to this forum. I would like to see discussion concerning the wave sheaf. There seems to be division among those that keep the feasts when to start counting the omer(50 days) to first fruits. The real prob is the word "Sabbath" in Lev 23:11:

    11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

    Is this the weekly sabbath or the feast of unleavened bread ? Should we start counting the omer from abib 16 or from the first day of the week that falls during the feast of unleavened bread ? I am seeking truth that I may worship YAH in spirit and in truth. I am intersted in you views. Thankyou in advance for your reply.

    Your Brother in Messiah Yahushua,
    Yahnathan

  • #2
    Welcome and Shalom Yahnathan,

    Thank you for coming here and joining with us as we endeavor to unite in Yahushua.

    Your E-mail to me was right on in how one should view the fulfillment of Yahweh's Torah. Yahushua IS the Passover, and therefore He would need to have been offered AT the appointed time, and that is why your reasoning was correct concerning the timeframe you presented (Yahushua dying at the time the Passover was to be slaughtered).

    The question concerning the timeframe of the Wave Sheaf is also answered by looking at the Spiritual fulfillment involved WITH Yahushua. There are several different explanations concerning the day of the week that Yahushua was sacrificed on. Traditional "Christianity" feels it was on Friday, other's feel it was on Thursday, but I am of the opinion that His death occurred on Wednesday. Wednesday would have been the 14th of Nissan, and then the 15th would have been the High Day Shabbat (Thursday), making the morrow after that Shabbat fall on Friday the 16th of Nissan. Now, when you look to the Spiritual fulfillment of these events, the wave sheaf is the FIRSTFRUITS, and it must be waved on the morrow AFTER Shabbat. Didn't Paul say that Yahushua IS the Firstfruits of those who have RISEN from the dead:

    1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    When was Yahushua RISEN? When was Yahushua WAVED? If you realize that He was placed in the tomb on Wednesday at sunset, then three days and three nights later would be Shabbat at sunset. His resurrection took place right at the end of the weekly Shabbat. Then the morrow (the first day of the week) after this Shabbat, His waving/being presented before the Father would take place. The account of Mary Magdalene encountering Yahushua in the garden shows us that He was planning to be appear (be waved) before the Father some time very soon:

    John 20:17 Yahushau saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my Elohim, and your Elohim.
    His ascending to the Father was THE waving of THE Firstfruits of those who had risen from the dead. His request to Mary, appears to be made, so that His waving would not be defiled OR hindered. But then later that evening He tells Thomas to reach out and touch Him:

    John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    So something must have taken place between the time of Him meeting Mary, and then later that evening with Thomas. I would propose that it was THE waving of the Firstfruits that took place, and this occurred on the morrow AFTER the weekly Shabbat, NOT the High Shabbat. I hope this does make some sense to you, and that we will agree on it?
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols
    (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

    Comment


    • #3

      Yes ImAHebrew, we agree. I too feel that messiah died prob on a Wed Abib 14 at 3pm and rose either shortly before sunset or at the moment of sunset(As is the case according to the tradition when the wave sheaf should be harvested). I too agree the sabbath in question in Lev 23:11 is the weekly sabbath. This explains how messiah could have died on passover and stayed 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. This also agrees with the account in Joshua 5:10-11 where it is clear that the wave sheaf was waved on the first day of unleavened bread, which would only be poss if Passover Abib 14 fell on a weekly Sabbath that year. This teaches us that the sabbath itself does not have to fall during the feast but the day the sheaf is waved must fall during the feast of unleavened bread. The Karaites also agree with this assessment of the wave sheaf.

      Your Friend in Messiah Yahushua,
      Yahnathan

      Comment


      • #4

        Shabbath Shalom All. ImaHebrew I am very happy to learn that YAH has also called you to help create unity among YAH's people. Messiah said that we are to be Echad(unified) just as the Father and Son are Echad(unified). This will never happen until we stop relying on human reasoning and humble ourselfs and except the fact that only YAH can teach us how he intends his torah to be fulfilled. It is very intersting how neither the Saducees nor the Pharacees could have undertood the proper fulfill ment of Passover and Firstfruits without messiah's example. Whom will we put our trust in the Saducees and Pharacees or in Messiah ? When I speak of unity I am not speaking of an organization created by men. I think it is clear YAH has shown us we are not to unite into one organization but rather to be in unity in doctrine. We being scattered and under no authority of man is a good thing. YAH has shown we will be more effective this way. However we need unity in doctrine. I would like to have open discussion on some doctrine among us that is unscriptural. In the Past we have put too much authority in organizations of men. YAH's people are of no one organization of men but are scattered all over the earth. When will we stop putting faith in men and have faith in YAH ?

        With Love in the Service of Yahushua,
        Yahnathan

        Comment


        • #5
          Shalom Yahnathan,

          We have much in agreement. It is very important to have unity. Have you ever considered some of the more unifying circumstances that bring people together. One that I have seen at work is the unity brought about through war. War helps a nation to set aside their internal differences as they join together to defeat their enemy. If it works along physical lines, then it should also work Spiritually.

          The war that we need to join together in is the war against sin and deception. Being unified in doctrine and faith will help us all work together in defeating the sin and deception in our lives. You are so right. We need that unity of doctrine, but sometimes there does need to be a difference of opinion so that the Truth can be made manifest to all. Bringing up doctrines that are wrong, and trying to correct someone's thinking about them, is all what this forum is about. So feel free to correct or expose anything you feel is false. Everyone associated with the Tzaddikim has the attitude that we can be wrong, and we want to be corrected when we are.
          Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

          Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
          Abstain from meats offered to idols
          (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
          So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ImAHebrew
            Welcome and Shalom Yahnathan,

            Thank you for coming here and joining with us as we endeavor to unite in Yahushua.

            Your E-mail to me was right on in how one should view the fulfillment of Yahweh's Torah. Yahushua IS the Passover, and therefore He would need to have been offered AT the appointed time, and that is why your reasoning was correct concerning the timeframe you presented (Yahushua dying at the time the Passover was to be slaughtered).

            The question concerning the timeframe of the Wave Sheaf is also answered by looking at the Spiritual fulfillment involved WITH Yahushua. There are several different explanations concerning the day of the week that Yahushua was sacrificed on. Traditional "Christianity" feels it was on Friday, other's feel it was on Thursday, but I am of the opinion that His death occurred on Wednesday. Wednesday would have been the 14th of Nissan, and then the 15th would have been the High Day Shabbat (Thursday), making the morrow after that Shabbat fall on Friday the 16th of Nissan. Now, when you look to the Spiritual fulfillment of these events, the wave sheaf is the FIRSTFRUITS, and it must be waved on the morrow AFTER Shabbat. Didn't Paul say that Yahushua IS the Firstfruits of those who have RISEN from the dead:

            1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

            Sandy replies:
            Messiah was not the first risen from the dead.
            Matthew 27:52-53
            52) And the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
            53) And coming forth out of the tombs after their resurrection they entered into the holy city and were revealed to many.


            When was Yahushua RISEN? When was Yahushua WAVED? If you realize that He was placed in the tomb on Wednesday at sunset, then three days and three nights later would be Shabbat at sunset. His resurrection took place right at the end of the weekly Shabbat. Then the morrow (the first day of the week) after this Shabbat, His waving/being presented before the Father would take place. The account of Mary Magdalene encountering Yahushua in the garden shows us that He was planning to be appear (be waved) before the Father some time very soon:

            John 20:17 Yahushau saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my Elohim, and your Elohim.

            Sandy replies:
            How do you decide if that is the truth. Matthew gives a completely different account (as well as does Mark and Luke).
            Matthew 28:1, 6-10
            1) But after the Sabbath, at the dawning into the first of the Sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to view the grave.
            6) He is not here, for he was raised, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
            7) And go quickly and tell his disciples that he was raised from the dead. And, behold, he goes before you into Galilee. You will see him there. Behold, I told you.
            8) And going away from the tomb, with fear and great joy they ran to tell his disciple.
            9) But as they were going to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And coming near, they seized his feet and worshiped him.
            10) Then Jesus said to them, Do not fear. Go tell your brothers that they may go into Galilee and they will see me there.



            His ascending to the Father was THE waving of THE Firstfruits of those who had risen from the dead. His request to Mary, appears to be made, so that His waving would not be defiled OR hindered. But then later that evening He tells Thomas to reach out and touch Him:

            John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
            So something must have taken place between the time of Him meeting Mary, and then later that evening with Thomas. I would propose that it was THE waving of the Firstfruits that took place, and this occurred on the morrow AFTER the weekly Shabbat, NOT the High Shabbat. I hope this does make some sense to you, and that we will agree on it?
            Sandy

            Comment


            • #7
              Shalom Sandy,

              I hope everything is found well with you. You have brought up some interesting rebuttals. If I may quote you:

              Sandy replies:
              Messiah was not the first risen from the dead.
              I can understand how you made that statement considering Matt 27, but do you feel those who were resurrected at that time were given eternal life? I look at those who were resurrected in Matt 27 as I look at Lazarus. Did Lazarus continue on living forever, or did he die again? When I stated that Yahushua is the Firstfruits, I meant the Firstfruits unto Eternal Life. Sorry I did not have that clarified. And if Yahushua is NOT the Firstfruits of those risen from the dead UNTO Eternal Life, how do you answer the following Scriptures:

              Acts 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

              1 Cor 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

              Col 1:18 And he (Messiah) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

              Rev 1:5 And from Yahushua Messiah, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
              Now Sandy, concerning Yahushua's waving before the Father on the morrow after the weekly Shabbat as The Firstfruits, what is your explanation of the events? We feel Matthew's account of the women holding His feet can be explained in light of John's account. I would first like to hear your explanation, and I would also like to hear how Luke's and Mark's version gives a different account as to what took place? You made it appear as if Luke and Mark spoke about this encounter, and that they had a different version of the "holding/not touching." Could you elaborate on how you were thinking?

              I am not saying that all of this is easily understood, but if we work together IN the Spirit, we can come together in Truth.
              Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

              Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
              Abstain from meats offered to idols
              (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
              So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hello Spying
                I really hope you are not going to get so upset with me that you will be sorry you invited me to join your forum. I am not attempting to be difficult or to cause trouble, I am sincerely looking for truth. So it is my hope that you as well as others here will not become upset and tired of me.

                I will attempt to answer your questions.

                You wrote:

                And if Yahushua is NOT the Firstfruits of those risen from the dead UNTO Eternal Life, how do you answer the following Scriptures:

                Acts 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
                Let's look at Acts 26:22 and 23 together
                • Acts 26
                  22) Then obtaning help from God, I stand until this day, witnessing both to small and to great, saying nothing else than what both the prophets and Moses said was going to happen;
                  23) that Messiah was to suffer, that first by a resurrection of the dead, a light he shall proclaim to the people and to the nations.

                I can find no verification in the Hebrew Scriptures to this statement as indicated by Paul.
                1 Cor 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

                Col 1:18 And he (Messiah) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
                Rev 1:5 And from Yahushua Messiah, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
                Daniel 12:1-3
                1) And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the existence of a nation until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book.
                2) And many of those sleeping in the earth's dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting loathing.
                3) And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righness as the stars forever and ever.

                Psalm 58
                10) The upright shall rejoice when he sees vengeance; he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
                11) And man shall say, Truly, fruit to the upright; truly there is an Elohim judging in the earth.[/list]
                Where in the Hebrew Scriptures does it say or indicate that our sins will be washed away by the blood of the Messiah.


                Sandy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sandy surly in your study of the talmid you have come accrose the the discussion of the Rabbis concerning the Yahushua ben David and Yahushua ben Joseph. Here we see the allusion even ageed to by many rabbis that the messiah will take the form of both a suffering servent unto death and a Anointed king. How do you explain it. It is my understanding you coralate these messianic prophecys to Israel itself even though Israel is always refered to in scripture as a bride(female) and the Messiah is refered to as Masculine. The key to understanding the the way in which the parts of Yahushua ben Joseph and Yahushua ben David are played out are found in the prophectic nature of the feasts.
                  Here we see Yahushua ben Joseph portrayed as the seffering sevent and is pictured by the Passover lamb that is slain its blood covers the sins of Israel and protects them from the Angel of Death. Later in the picture of the feasts after a long pause between the spring and fall festivials Yahushua ben David appears at the last trumpet blast to set up the kingdom of Israel forever on earth. Please concider this possibility.

                  With Love in the Service of The Salvation of YAHWEH,

                  Yahnathan

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Yahnathan
                    Sandy surly in your study of the talmid you have come accrose the the discussion of the Rabbis concerning the Yahushua ben David and Yahushua ben Joseph. Here we see the allusion even ageed to by many rabbis that the messiah will take the form of both a suffering servent unto death and a Anointed king. How do you explain it. It is my understanding you coralate these messianic prophecys to Israel itself even though Israel is always refered to in scripture as a bride(female) and the Messiah is refered to as Masculine.
                    Sandy replies:
                    Surely you are mistaken. Israel is NOT ALWAYS referred to in Scripture as a bride (female).

                    Israel as YHUH'S son:
                    Exodus 4
                    22) And you shall speak to Pharaoh, So says YHUH, Israel is my son, my firstborn.
                    23) And I said to you, Send my son away and let him serve me; and you refused to send him. Behold, I am about to kill your son, your firstborn.

                    Hosea 11:1
                    When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and I called my son out of Egypt.

                    Israel as YHUH'S servant
                    Isaiah 41:8
                    But you, Israel, are my servant; Jacob whom I have chosen; the seed of my friend Abraham;

                    Isaiah 44
                    1) And now listen, my servant Jacob, and Israel whom I have chosen.
                    21) Remember these, Jacob and Israel. For you are my servant; I have formed you; you are my servant, Israel; you shall not forget me.

                    Isaiah 48:20
                    Go out of Babylon; flee from the chaldeans. Tell this with the voice of rejoicing; let this be heard, let it go out to the end of the earth; say, YHUH has redeemed his servant Jacob.

                    Jeremiah 30:10
                    And you, my servant Jacob, do not fear, says YHUH. Do not be terrified, Israel.

                    Ezekiel 37:25
                    And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, where your fathers dwelt. And they shall dwell on it, they and their sons and the sons of their sons, forever. And my servant, David (this is speaking of the Messiah) shall be a ruler to them forever.


                    The key to understanding the the way in which the parts of Yahushua ben Joseph and Yahushua ben David are played out are found in the prophectic nature of the feasts.
                    Here we see Yahushua ben Joseph portrayed as the seffering sevent and is pictured by the Passover lamb that is slain its blood covers the sins of Israel and protects them from the Angel of Death. Later in the picture of the feasts after a long pause between the spring and fall festivials Yahushua ben David appears at the last trumpet blast to set up the kingdom of Israel forever on earth. Please concider this possibility.

                    I will address this half in a separate post.

                    With Love in the Service of The Salvation of YAHWEH,

                    [/B]
                    Sandy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ImAHebrew
                      Shalom Sandy,

                      I hope everything is found well with you. You have brought up some interesting rebuttals. If I may quote you:

                      Sandy replies:
                      Messiah was not the first risen from the dead.
                      =snip=

                      Now Sandy, concerning Yahushua's waving before the Father on the morrow after the weekly Shabbat as The Firstfruits, what is your explanation of the events?


                      Passover has nothing to do with the waving of the sheaf.
                      The purpose of the Passover is this:
                      Exodus 4
                      22) And you shall speak to Pharaoh, So says YHUH, Israel is my son, my firstborn.
                      23) And I said to you, Send my son away and let him serve me, but you refused to send him. Behold, I am about to kill your son, your firstborn.

                      Exodus 12
                      26) And it shall be, when your sons say to you, what is this service to you?
                      27) Then you shall say, It is the slaughter of the Passover to YHUH, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt, when he struck Egypt and he delivered our houses...

                      The wave offering:
                      Leviticus 23
                      9) And YHUH spoke to Moses saying,
                      10) Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving to you, and have reaped its harvest, and have brought in the sheaf, the beginning of your harvest, to the priest,
                      11) Then he shall wave the sheaf before YHUH for your acceptance; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
                      12) And you shall prepare a lamb in the day you wave the sheaf, a perfect one, a son of a year, for a burnt offering to YHUH.

                      Yahshua was crucified at Passover. If he were to be a part of the wave offering he would have had to be killed the day after the sabbath as indicated in verse 12.

                      The Passover sacrifice was eaten and any remaining was burned (Exodus 12:9-10). No part of it is ever waved or brought to the priest.


                      We feel Matthew's account of the women holding His feet can be explained in light of John's account. I would first like to hear your explanation, and I would also like to hear how Luke's and Mark's version gives a different account as to what took place? You made it appear as if Luke and Mark spoke about this encounter, and that they had a different version of the "holding/not touching." Could you elaborate on how you were thinking?


                      I was stating that each account was different.

                      Matthew 28:1, 6-10
                      1) But after the Sabbath, at the dawning into the first of the Sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to view the grave.
                      6) He is not here, for he was raised, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
                      7) And go quickly and tell his disciples that he was raised from the dead. And, behold, he goes before you into Galilee. You will see him there. Behold, I told you.
                      8) And going away from the tomb, with fear and great joy they ran to tell his disciple.
                      9) But as they were going to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And coming near, they seized his feet and worshiped him.
                      10) Then Jesus said to them, Do not fear. Go tell your brothers that they may go into Galilee and they will see me there.

                      Mark 16
                      1) And the Sabbath passing, Mary the Magalene and Mary of James and Salome bought spices that coming they might anoint him
                      2) And very early at the rising of the sun on the first Sabbaths they came upon the tomb,
                      6) ...He was raised; he is not here...
                      7) But go, say to the disciples and to Peter, He goes before you into Galilee. You will see him there, even as he told you.
                      8) And going out quickly, they fled from the tomb...and they told no one...
                      9) And rising early in the first of the Sabbaths, he appeared first to Mary the Magdalene...
                      10) She having gone reported to those having been with him, who were mourning and weeping.
                      11) And those hearing that he lives and was seen by her, they did not believe.

                      Luke 24
                      1) And indeed they rested on the Sabbath according to the command, but on the first of the Sabbaths dawn deeping, they came on the tomb carrying spices which they prepared...
                      6) He is not here; he was raised...
                      9) And returning from the tomb, they reported all these things to the eleven...
                      10) And they were Mary the Magdalene, Joanna and Mary of James...who told these things to the apostles.
                      11) And their words seemed like foolishness to them and they did not believe them.
                      13) And, behold, two of them were going on the same day to a village being sixty furlongs distance from Jerusalem...
                      15) And it happened, as they talked and reasoned, coming near Jesus himself traveled with them,
                      16) But their eyes were held so as not to recognise him.

                      John 19
                      1) But on the first of the Sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene comes at dawn, darkness yet being on the tomb, and sees the stone had been removed from the tomb.
                      2) Then she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciples...
                      4) And the two ran together...
                      10) then the disciples went away again to themselves.
                      11) But Mary stood outside at the tomb, weeping...
                      14) ...she turned around and saw Jesus standing and did not know that it was Jesus.
                      16) Jesus said to her, Mary!...
                      17) Jesus said to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my father, but go to my brothers...
                      18) Mary the Magdalene came bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord...

                      None of the accounts agree. In Matthew they seize his feet and worship him. In John he says "do not touch me". Mark and Luke have neither.


                      I am not saying that all of this is easily understood, but if we work together IN the Spirit, we can come together in Truth.
                      Sandy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Shalom Sandy,

                        I hope that you are doing just fine. My days are still very hectic.

                        It appears your view of Passover and Firstfruits is strictly from a "historical" perspective. When you look at Passover, you see a historical event that transpired in the past, which found it's fulfillment when Yahweh deliver Moses and the Children of Israel out of Egypt, don't you? You should also look at Firstfruits the same way, for it was WHEN they ENTERED into the land that they could then harvest the firstfruits and wave them. What you do today is just a reminder or memorial of those events that were fulfilled way back when. Now, the Tzaddikim look at those events that transpired with physical Israel in a much different fashion. We look at what happened to physical Israel as just a "picture" or "shadow" of a much grandeur fulfillment of "leaving Egypt" and "waving the Firstfruits."

                        King David prayed to Yahweh asking that his "eyes" be "opened" so that he could behold the wondrous things veiled within the Torah:
                        Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy Torah.
                        The whole Torah has "wondrous things" veiled within it. Do you believe that we should ONLY view the events and instructions of the Torah along "physical" lines? Haven't you tried to understand what the "figure" or "type" of what the Torah was truly pointing to?

                        Just consider the "land" that was promised to the children of Israel. Is the inheritance of Yahweh's people just a strip of real-estate in the Mediterranean? No. That Land is symbolic of an eternal inheritance, which is Eternal Life itself. This is what Yahweh is accomplishing in a grandeur fashion. His purpose is to deliver mankind (both Jew and Gentile) out of their sin (Egypt). In the process of delivering us OUT of sin, He has allowed us to wander a little in the wilderness of this physical life. His goal is to bring us INTO His Land, where He resides, and that is Life everlasting. Everlasting life IS the abode of Yahweh, in it you will find the DOING of His judgments and His commands. It is not like Egypt, for in Egypt there is nothing but hard bondage, a slavery to sin. By the mighty Hand of Yahweh, He is delivering His people OUT of sin, and bringing them to a Land that is flowing with milk and honey. This land is also watered by rain from HEAVEN itself. Consider the following verses:
                        Deu 11:10 "For the land, into which you are entering to possess it, is not like the land of Egypt from which you came, where you used to sow your seed and water it with your foot like a vegetable garden.
                        11 "But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven,
                        12 a land for which Yahweh your Elohim cares; the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim are always on it, from the beginning even to the end of the year.
                        That rain from Heaven itself is the rain of Yahweh's Word falling on us with it's Spiritual meaning or understanding. But it takes, as King David said, for one's eyes to be opened to see it.

                        Ezekiel gives us some insight into WHEN Yahweh's people will truly INHERIT the promised land:
                        Ezek 37:12 "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, 'Thus says Yahweh, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
                        13 "Then you will know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
                        14 "And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, Yahweh, have spoken and done it," declares Yahweh.'"
                        Coming forth OUT of the GRAVE is WHEN Yahweh brings His people INTO the LAND. This is WHEN the waving of the Firstfruits MUST occur according to the "Spiritual" fulfillment of the Torah. Yahushua was the FIRST to rise from the grave UNTO Eternal Life. He has entered the Land, and He has been waved AS the One who was first harvested from Mankind. Sandy, does this make any since to you at all?
                        Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                        Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                        Abstain from meats offered to idols
                        (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                        So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ImAHebrew
                          Shalom Sandy,

                          I hope that you are doing just fine. My days are still very hectic.

                          It appears your view of Passover and Firstfruits is strictly from a "historical" perspective. When you look at Passover, you see a historical event that transpired in the past, which found it's fulfillment when Yahweh deliver Moses and the Children of Israel out of Egypt, don't you? You should also look at Firstfruits the same way, for it was WHEN they ENTERED into the land that they could then harvest the firstfruits and wave them. What you do today is just a reminder or memorial of those events that were fulfilled way back when. Now, the Tzaddikim look at those events that transpired with physical Israel in a much different fashion. We look at what happened to physical Israel as just a "picture" or "shadow" of a much grandeur fulfillment of "leaving Egypt" and "waving the Firstfruits."

                          King David prayed to Yahweh asking that his "eyes" be "opened" so that he could behold the wondrous things veiled within the Torah:
                          Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy Torah.
                          The whole Torah has "wondrous things" veiled within it. Do you believe that we should ONLY view the events and instructions of the Torah along "physical" lines? Haven't you tried to understand what the "figure" or "type" of what the Torah was truly pointing to?

                          Just consider the "land" that was promised to the children of Israel. Is the inheritance of Yahweh's people just a strip of real-estate in the Mediterranean? No. That Land is symbolic of an eternal inheritance, which is Eternal Life itself. This is what Yahweh is accomplishing in a grandeur fashion. His purpose is to deliver mankind (both Jew and Gentile) out of their sin (Egypt). In the process of delivering us OUT of sin, He has allowed us to wander a little in the wilderness of this physical life. His goal is to bring us INTO His Land, where He resides, and that is Life everlasting. Everlasting life IS the abode of Yahweh, in it you will find the DOING of His judgments and His commands. It is not like Egypt, for in Egypt there is nothing but hard bondage, a slavery to sin. By the mighty Hand of Yahweh, He is delivering His people OUT of sin, and bringing them to a Land that is flowing with milk and honey. This land is also watered by rain from HEAVEN itself. Consider the following verses:
                          Deu 11:10 "For the land, into which you are entering to possess it, is not like the land of Egypt from which you came, where you used to sow your seed and water it with your foot like a vegetable garden.
                          11 "But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven,
                          12 a land for which Yahweh your Elohim cares; the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim are always on it, from the beginning even to the end of the year.
                          That rain from Heaven itself is the rain of Yahweh's Word falling on us with it's Spiritual meaning or understanding. But it takes, as King David said, for one's eyes to be opened to see it.

                          Ezekiel gives us some insight into WHEN Yahweh's people will truly INHERIT the promised land:
                          Ezek 37:12 "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, 'Thus says Yahweh, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
                          13 "Then you will know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
                          14 "And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, Yahweh, have spoken and done it," declares Yahweh.'"
                          Coming forth OUT of the GRAVE is WHEN Yahweh brings His people INTO the LAND. This is WHEN the waving of the Firstfruits MUST occur according to the "Spiritual" fulfillment of the Torah. Yahushua was the FIRST to rise from the grave UNTO Eternal Life. He has entered the Land, and He has been waved AS the One who was first harvested from Mankind. Sandy, does this make any since to you at all?
                          Each of these appointed feasts was to be keep as never-ending statutes, so I hardly think that I believe as you have implied
                          It appears your view of Passover and Firstfruits is strictly from a "historical" perspective.
                          I stand by what I have already presented, which I believe is self explanatory.

                          The Passover:
                          • Exodus 4
                            22) And you shall speak to Pharaoh, So says YHUH, Israel is my son, my firstborn.
                            23) And I said to you, Send my son away and let him serve me, but you refused to send him. Behold, I am about to kill your son, your firstborn.

                            Exodus 12
                            26) And it shall be, when your sons say to you, what is this service to you?
                            27) Then you shall say, It is the slaughter of the Passover to YHUH, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt, when he struck Egypt and he delivered our houses...


                          The wave offering:
                          • Leviticus 23
                            9) And YHUH spoke to Moses saying,
                            10) Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving to you, and have reaped its harvest, and have brought in the sheaf, the beginning of your harvest, to the priest,
                            11) Then he shall wave the sheaf before YHUH for your acceptance; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
                            12) And you shall prepare a lamb in the day you wave the sheaf, a perfect one, a son of a year, for a burnt offering to YHUH.


                          Yahshua was crucified at Passover. If he were to be a part of the wave offering he would have had to be killed the day after the sabbath as indicated in verse 12.

                          The Passover sacrifice was eaten and any remaining was burned (Exodus 12:9-10). No part of it is ever waved or brought to the priest.

                          I feel that there is way too much spiritualizing of the Scriptures and not enough of taking them at face value.


                          Sandy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Shalom Sandy,

                            Thanks for your response. You're right, there is quite a bit of Spiritualizing by us, and hopefully it's something that you may want to look at differently someday.

                            What's the alternative? Taking everything at face value would present some problems for us. Just consider the Passover? Do you travel to Jerusalem every spring and select a lamb as your Passover, and then slaughter it on the 14th of Abib? According to the face value of the Torah, you would have no other choice, that is unless you somehow try to "spiritualize" away the clear command of Yahweh. Let me present to you the "face value."

                            1. Every family was to select a lamb and kill it themselves. They could share with another family if their family was too small:
                            Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
                            4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
                            2. It was to be a "forever" requirement for all of the generations to come:
                            Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to Yahweh throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
                            Exodus 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
                            3. The Passover was to be offered in the PLACE that Yahweh chose to place His Name:
                            Deuteronomy 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim, of the flock and the herd, in the place which Yahweh shall choose to place his name there.
                            4. Now, just where IS the place that Yahweh has chosen to place His Name?
                            1 Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
                            So let's recap here. Each family (or several familles together) are required to set aside a lamb on the 10th of Abib, and they are to then slaughter that lamb themselves at the place that Yahweh chooses to place His Name (which NOW is the city of Jerusalem) on the 14th of Abib. It is a perpetual statute for all of the generations to come. In fact, if one fails to offer Yahweh's offering at it's appointed time, that person must be cut off:
                            Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of Yahweh in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
                            So Sandy, if we look at all of these requirements strictly at face value, then there are a whole bunch of sinners bearing their sin. Do you take the requirements of the Passover at face value, or do you spiritualize them away? And take special notice of this face value--there was no temple required nor a priesthood in the offering of the Passover at it's appointed time. In fact, there wasn't even an altar.

                            I would sure appreciate if you could give me some of your thoughts concerning these things.
                            Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                            Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                            Abstain from meats offered to idols
                            (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                            So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ImAHebrew
                              Shalom Sandy,

                              Thanks for your response. You're right, there is quite a bit of Spiritualizing by us, and hopefully it's something that you may want to look at differently someday.


                              No, that is not something that I want to look into. The excessive spiritualizing of everything is what I have worked to overcome. That is exactly what Christianity does. If you don't want to face or accept the truth of something just spiritualize it away.

                              What's the alternative? Taking everything at face value would present some problems for us. Just consider the Passover? Do you travel to Jerusalem every spring and select a lamb as your Passover, and then slaughter it on the 14th of Abib? According to the face value of the Torah, you would have no other choice, that is unless you somehow try to "spiritualize" away the clear command of Yahweh. Let me present to you the "face value."

                              1. Every family was to select a lamb and kill it themselves. They could share with another family if their family was too small:
                              Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
                              4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
                              2. It was to be a "forever" requirement for all of the generations to come:
                              Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to Yahweh throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
                              Exodus 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
                              3. The Passover was to be offered in the PLACE that Yahweh chose to place His Name:
                              Deuteronomy 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim, of the flock and the herd, in the place which Yahweh shall choose to place his name there.
                              4. Now, just where IS the place that Yahweh has chosen to place His Name?
                              1 Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
                              So let's recap here. Each family (or several familles together) are required to set aside a lamb on the 10th of Abib, and they are to then slaughter that lamb themselves at the place that Yahweh chooses to place His Name (which NOW is the city of Jerusalem) on the 14th of Abib. It is a perpetual statute for all of the generations to come. In fact, if one fails to offer Yahweh's offering at it's appointed time, that person must be cut off:
                              Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of Yahweh in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
                              Do you honestly believe the Jerusalem of today is a place in which YHUH chooses to put his name? The very city that forbids anyone to even speak his name. I don't think so. The Scriptures tell us that a time will come in which Jerusalem will again be the place of YHUH, but it certainly is not in this day and at this time.
                              • Jeremiah 26
                                5)...but you have not listened
                                6) so I will make this house (the House of YHUH) like Shiloh and will make this city a curse (Jerusalem) to all the nations of the earth.


                              Also, do you believe that as long as Israel is dispersed from one end of the earth to the other, among all their enemies, they are in a postion to keep the Feasts according to the directions given in the Scriptures?


                              So Sandy, if we look at all of these requirements strictly at face value, then there are a whole bunch of sinners bearing their sin. Do you take the requirements of the Passover at face value, or do you spiritualize them away? And take special notice of this face value--there was no temple required nor a priesthood in the offering of the Passover at it's appointed time. In fact, there wasn't even an altar.

                              Yes, you are absolutely right. The Passover has nothing to do with the priesthood, Temple or any altar. Also, just as you stated, specific instructions were given concerning it. BUT, where are the instructions from YHUH to Israel saying, While you are dispersed among the nations, your enemies, and find that you are unable to keep the Passover as instructed you can spiritualize it. Just crucify a Messiah and he will take the place of the Passover and all the sin offerings. Then write about it in a book and call it the New Testament. It will take precidence over the Torah because it is spiritual. For Israel is spiritual while living among her enemies.

                              Actually he said,
                              • Exodus 12:25 And it shall be, when you come into the land which YHUH shall give to you, as he has spoken, you shall observe this service (the Passover).

                              Is the nation of Israel in the land as promised by YHUH at this time?


                              I would sure appreciate if you could give me some of your thoughts concerning these things. [/B]
                              Sandy

                              Comment

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