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  • beseder
    Hail to the sage

    Hi thummim
    either you are saying that all of us religious Jews that know our language are dumb- or you are saying that you know more than we do.
    Why is it that i havent dropped on in to the "context" bid, we Jews dont read like that. Well maybe most of the ones here in the US do, however the ones in Israel do not.
    They do not read certain passages in their synogogues either.
    They skip some on purpose. I ask them why they(the rabbis in israel) do that and they cannot give an answer.
    Wow thummim, you even break law to glorify all jews- I however do not, one that breaks law on purpose to scorn Yah or that doesnt even acknowledge him is outside our/HIS camp... and thats the eternal law, unless that person makes himself right with GD, for even Isaiah speaks against the wicked ones, the hypocrites, the strong men, and the ones in deep sleep.
    and not all of these reffer to the leaders on Israel alone- they apply to the whole bunch.

    I have seen the Peace that Messiah brings, to bad you have not. I have seen PLACED amoungst the arabs and Jews together, I witness it almost everyday.

    You can show your Americanized view of TNCH, I'll of course bring the Moshiach centered portion. Learn from the learned that have their eyes open.
    And on this whole letter, i judge myself on


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  • Thummim
    My rock is the stone of David, and it is in my sling!

    beseder/AntotiYah writes;

    Thummim, are you still trying to figure out what ytou believe?
    If we prove Messiah , which you will ardently contest that we cannot, will you recieve him?


    ...and if I prove him false, will you take correction? How many times have I shown that someone who occupies the time that "Jesus" occupies, cannot claim to be the messiah. Now I will go verse to verse with you. You try to connect him to the tanakh and I will again and again, show you that all such attemps to make a messiah of "Jesus", will fail. You will have to read a whole paragraph and chapters of text in order, and not just a single verse out of context. We can start with Mat. 3: 3 and see if we can find a time without warfare where the transgressions of YaHudaH are forgiven. We can next go to Zechariah to see if a "pierced" servant has liberated Jerusalem in the fashion of Josiah {by war}. We can go on and on. I love doing it. The further we go, the more apparent it will be that "Jesus" isn't the messiah and that he hasn't delivered his people from oppression. Knowledge cuts both ways.


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  • beseder
    Matthew 23

    Maybe you can enlighten us as to where we should go with this?
    I think all the "answers" are given with the combining of our threads.
    However, where can we take it?
    Are you still trying to figure out what you believe?
    Thimmim, are you still trying to figure out what ytou believe?
    If we prove Messiah , which you will ardently contest that we cannot, will you recieve him?

    We will see


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  • beseder
    what thummim ahd to say about this topic

    Senior Member

    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Washington State
    Posts: 567
    Were both still trying to figure out what to believe.
    ...AntotiYah, I'm always glad to hear from you. Ah Ha, the book of Danial. How shall I approach it? The time table that you speak about, I've known of for many years. Its chief weakness is that either end of this dating sequence can be moved. That voids the whole thing. We can start at 586 BCE and begin a count of years. (Seventy years to end the captivity-{we only need to come to a command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem after this} We ask, how many years after the release of the captives, do we add to the seventy years, to come to our declaration to rebuild? From my dating, the captives are freed closer to 49 years after our starting date. I haven't been able to get it to seventy years of captivity. Then I'm fixed upon Cyrus, whom YHWH calls his shepherd of declaration in Isa. 44: 28. Do you anole this verse of text? We can use either the proclamation of Cyrus (Isa. 44: 28) of which YHWH declares that he will give the command to rebuild the foundation of the temple {directly after the captivity}, or we can use Artaxerxes. If we use a date that corisponds to a decree of Cyrus, then all the dating you give me, falls apart. On the other end, When is (jesus) born? Most dating systems have it sometime between - 7 BCE and - 4 BCE. The system that I have heard in the past, liked to use the year (0) which doesn't exist. We also loose our constant in this dating system that you write of. 70 X 7 is 490 years. I do not believe that this will work, beginning in the year of 444 BCE. (The last seven cannot fit the same formula.) Do we date to a birthdate, or do we date to arrival at Jerusalem, and to the temple? Isa. 40: 1 - 3 says that we also need a time of peace to work with. Had not the author of Mathew not confirmed this in Mat. 3: 3, we could have just skipped it. These verses occur after warfare has ended, and pursuant to peace. The account of Zech. 12: 6 - 14 have Jerusalem coming under the control of the JEWish people, after the nations surround it and YHWH vents his wrath on them. This would seem closer to the right time {captivity now by Rome} Obviously it doesn't fit the context of the Zechariah texts. Are you willing to say that the (pierced) one isn't (jesus)? This too, must have something to do with dating, if Jerusalem is to be in the hands of the JEWs afterwards. Nothing works for (jesus), if we try to put everything in the proper context.

    Thummim, read the gospels again, ( it should strike your mind) and you will see where Yehushua actually gives the pardon for Israel.

    ...But I don't see it. Please give me chapter and verse so I can look it up. I know that Isa. 53 releases (all) the seed of Israel. If (jesus) is messiah, he cannot fail in this. The messiah does not come, condemning his people. He cannot pick and choose. I also have to ask you something. How many JEWs are saved of those who will not, or have not confirmed (jesus) as messiah? Why should there be any such need, if the intercessor is to be unknown? (Isa. 53: 3)

    ...Did you know that you can be righteous, though still a transgressor? Moses was. He stood in the wrath of YHWH, watching his people cross the Jordan without him. If he had been forgiven, then he would have been with his people. He died without a sacrifice, in sin and still ended up in YHWH's heaven according to the NT. Wasn't he seen in the transformation? Do any of us doubt his righteousness? Even a transgressor can be found righteous, though still in his sin. How long does a sacrifice carry the righteousness of the people? If one of the thousands of Israel, were to sin only ten minutes after the sacrifice for sin, is the hole now unrighteous? Or does YHWH's call, carry his people until he reasons them unrighteous again? YHWH can even redeem the least of Israel. All righteous is more than simple words. It's the intended outcome for (All) Israel, to be found righteous.

    so did Daniel prophecy accurately
    which includes The coming of Messiah
    death of Messiah Destruction of Jerusalem and the temple
    and the third part of prophecy pertaining to the seventieth week which is yet to happen?

    ...To this date (the time of Rome) there have been two temples. One is destroyed , and one yet stands. Does messiah come to the temple of captivity to Rome? If so, the peacemaker would not fit here. Your messiah would loose most of the textual support of Isaiah, which speaks of Peace for Jerusalem. (--> in messianic times)

    ...Messiah must come in the purpose to his existance. What is that? Is there a reason that the JEWish people need (jesus) at all? All of his {messiah-ing work} must exist in the nether, nether land. He is not an ambasador bringing peace to his people. (Isa. 40: 2) He is not a king liberating Jerusalem. (Zech. 6, 7 --> {9 Rome?}) --> whom they pierced = Jerusalem liberated. The pierced king belongs to the liberation of Jerusalem. (jesus fails to fit here) Neither is the time of (jesus), a time of peace. What about the following verses of text? These say that (jesus) cannot fit here either, for there is no help to come from her sons. Read verse 18.

    17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of YHWH the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.

    18 (**There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up**)

    19 These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: (*by whom shall I comfort thee?*)

    20 Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of YHWH, the rebuke of thy God. {they recieved double for their sin Isa. 40: 2}

    21 Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine:

    --> {most likely drunken with terror}

    22 Thus saith Adonai YHWH Elohenu, that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; (**thou shalt no more drink it again:**) --> {not ever?}

    --> {Yahudah's time of warfare is now over}

    23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over. Isa. 51: 17 - 23

    --> {Whom is the author speaking about? These texts speak of an even that already occured, and likely date Isa. 53 to this same time.}


    ...This says that the liberty of Jerusalem has nothing to do with (jesus) --> who is one of Jerusalems sons. (vs. 18 above) This text should help to define when there can be a (jesus). Peace for Jerusalem, follows these verses of text. They go with Isa. 40: 1 - 3, leaving the author of Matthew in error. Also (jesus) cannot be the pierced servant of Zechariah if this speaks of the same time, with Jerusalem finding her peace. I really want to define the time of (jesus) to see where he fits within the text, and what he is to accomplish. The NT's author's like to link all texts to (jesus) This cannot possibly work. He can only fit one time. {two if we believe in a second coming} Can we exclude him from any time that does not reflect the time of Rome? If peace does not come for Jerusalem, then we must disclude him from all the redemption texts that conclude in Jerusalems peace.


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  • beseder


    There are 3 specific parts(concerning Mesiah) that our brother Daniel spoke about
    the 70 weeks(of years), or 490 yrs. The first part states that at the end of 69 "weeks"
    or sevens, the Messiah will come to Jerusalem (the seven and 62 sevens are understood as 69 sevens.
    The egnition of the 69 weeks multiplied by 7 years equals 483 yrs. the decree to restore jerusalem found in v25
    the second part shows that after messiah comes, He will be cut off, then the prince to come will destroy jerusalem and temple and complete the 70 x 7, or 490 yrs with a final seven yr period.
    (Daniel 9:24-27)
    with Messiah dying and the prince and destruction, takes place after the 69 weeks of years. so there is one more week left...(7+62+1), not just 69 . he final week is described in 9:27 , and since we know that double reffrences are common in Prophecy( like how a reffrence may reffer to David but later it is also reffers to Christ) , daniel 9:27 speaks about a different prince that is to come than the prince in verse 26.
    The prince in verse 27 forces Jewish temple practices to stop, but the prince in 9:26 has just destroyed the temple and v27's prince must come later, after the temple is rebuilt, which has not yet occured.

    whats a week?
    hmmm, with this no Yehudi or secular person can stand against, well, they can if they wanted too
    Our Jewish concept of week:
    week=shabua which lit. means a "seven", then in hebrew, the idea of seventy weeks is seventy sevens
    Us yehudiim are and were familiar with a "seven" of both days and years.
    Leviticus 25:2-4 shows that there was a multiple of a week of years.
    so with what has already been said how could the seven weeks in Daniel be seven years?
    Daniel had been thinking in terms of years and multiples of seven earlier in the chapter(Dan 9:1-2)
    Daniel knew that the Babylonian captivity was based on violation of the Sabatic year , and since they were in captivity for seventy yrs.
    The context is consistent and makes sense when we understand the seventy weeks as yrs

    but ultimately,if it meant a mere "weeks" as we understand, we know that nothing was happening 2 years after the decree to rebuild jerusalem...ummm soooo, how could Messiah come then...the temple wasnt even built yet...lets say 10 years, 15?
    the timing would be off greatly, wouldnt it???
    how would it be off if we dont know the date when the decree was declared...
    well now we have it
    The decree is reffered to in Nehemiah 2, it was in the 20th year of Artaxerxes. The words of the decree are not given, but its matter can easily be seen.Nehemiah hears the desolate condition of Jerusalem. he is deeply grieved.the King asks the reason. Nehemiah replies, "the city , the place of my father's sepulchers . lies in waste, and the gates tereof are consumed with fire." The king bids him to make a request. He does so , asking an order from the king that" i be sent to the city that i may build it." And it says that he was sent and he rebuilt jerusalem.
    this decree is the commandment to restore other decree authorizes the restoration...and Nehemiah tells us how it was done...all other decrees were to rebuild the temple.
    This decree was given in 444BC based on this:
    1.In the month of Nisan, in te 2oth year of king Artaxerxes(neh2:1)
    2.Artaxerxes' accession was in 465 BC
    3, there is no SPECIFIED date, so according to Jewish custom is was placed on the first day of Nisan 444 BC which is March 5 444BC corresponding with our calendar.

    It took 49 years to restore the city(v 25)
    the close of Hebrew prophecy and of the Tan''kh canon in Malachi is cool,marked forty nine years after 444BC
    if daniel is correct , the time from decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (nisan 1444BC) to the coming of the Messiah to Jerusalem is 483 years(69 x 7)
    the great event of the 69 weeks by seven years for each week is the presentation of Messiah himself to Israel as Jesus, as predeicted in Zech 9:9

    so did Daniel prophecy accurately
    which includes The coming of Messiah
    death of Messiah Destruction of Jerusalem and the temple
    and the third part of prophecy pertaining to the seventieth week which is yet to happen?

    Thummim, read the gospels again, ( it should strike your mind) and you will see where Yehushua actually gives the pardon for Israel. and this stands forever.
    His words will never pass-- that means even from among us Yehudiim, believers in Him or not, even if we "snarl and growl" and "frown and spit" at him. His word stands no matter how much we push it away.
    Understand Him-- because yoou would be a liar if you say that you do understand Him... especially if you say you "understand" Messiah.
    I know that i am still trying to understand

    she Elohim evareh aleichem

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  • beseder
    From Yahshua, Yah or not Yah?

    Be blessed Matthew 23
    I totally agree
    Senior Member

    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: in the heart of G-D YehsooH
    Posts: 103

    a lack of understanding
    Hi thummim

    I stand here for my brother, my friend, father, wonderful conselor, the brach of David, the root of David, the first and the last, the aleph and thav, My Yehushua--the Yehudi, heir to the royal throne of Yehudah. If you can prove at least by royalty and blood(geneaology) how Yehushua CANNOT be the heir to the throne of Yehudah... please speak.
    you have had me Really test Messiah Much more thatn the way I have done before...i thank you for it!
    Yah bless you for your opposition...
    However, now, I stand affirmed by each and every way and step, that Yehushua had the right to "condemn" us.Funny thing is, most of Us, MUCH of us are blinded to the "why's" and the "how's" of Yehushua's Condeming of us Yehudiim. He was right to do it by Tan''kh alone. And yes, Michael, you are right Yah has set a place to forgive us after the exile from Babylon. The redemption happened to us about 2000 yrs ago. I know deep down, that you disagree, your heart is set on something different.
    But i will let you know this, we are a blind people for the moment. ( i know you disagree) Our eyes will be opened one day, and soon.
    But Ishmael must be born first. and us Yehudiim are against that.
    Let him come out the womb... I am Israel... and I actually look foward to the day of Ishmaels birth. I am more enthusiastic about ishmaels birth more than i am for Yaacov for right now... we are already a blessed and promised seed.
    But here, THE AFFIRMATION of Yehushua...You can excuse it away all you want, but it is truth! His truth! You can find ways to speak against it, and you are even probably familiar with it, but here Thummim. Understand Yehushua Mashiyakh.
    Thank you again for your opposition, be blessed:

    The removal of the scepter
    Gen 49:10
    the word for scepter here means "tribal staff"
    Each of the 12 tribes had there own particular staff with it's name inscribed on it.
    So the identity and the "tribal staff" of Yehudah, and its lawgivers, is not to pass away until the coming of Shiloh.We Jews and christians know "shiloh" as a name for Messiah.
    we rememeber that Yehudah was deprived of "national" soverienty during the babylonian captivity for 70yrs. However, the tribal staff and identity did not depart from us during that time. We still possesed our own Law givers and judges even while in captivity(ezra 1:5-8)
    We know of 2 signs that were to rake place soon after the advent of Messiah:
    1.Removal of the scepter and identity of Yehudah and 2. Suppression of the judicial power
    the first visible sign of the removal of the scepter from Yehudah was when Herod the greta , who had no jewish blood , succeeded the Maccabean princes that belonged to the tribe of levi and who were the last Jewish kings to have reign in Yerushalom

    the legal power of the sanhedrin is restricted 23 years before the trial of Jesus. this restrivtion involved the loss of power to pass the death sentence(Jus gladii)
    this occured after Archelaus, the son and succesor of herod . (ad 11 or 7)
    so Romes procurators took the supremem power to exercise the jus gladii from the sanhedrin, and it was only they(the romans) themselves that could exercise this in any and every nation they overthrew. Israel- no exception.
    The romans reserved for themselves the right of the sword, and neglected all else.
    Sanhedrin could do this though
    excommunication(john 9:22) Imprisonment(acts5:17-18) Corpral punishment(Acts 16:22)
    Talmud itself testifies that a "little more that 40yrs befor ethe destruction of the temple, the power pronouncing capital sentences was taken away from us jews. however, it hardly seems possible that the jus gladii remained in the Jews hands until that time. It probably ceased at the time of Coponius(ad7)

    Rabbi rachmon says " when members of the sanhendrin found themslevesdeprived if their right over life and death , a general consternation took possesion of them ; they covered their heads with ashes , and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming: 'Woe unto us, for the scepter has departed from Judah , and the Messiah has not come!'"

    there is much more that us Yehudiim said then. I can get a little deeper, but Im just giving an over view right now.

    But, The Talmud
    states " since the sanhedrin no longer had jurisdiction in capital offenses, there is no practical utility in this ruling, which can become effective only in the days of the Messiah. So once the Judicial power was suppressed, the sanhedrin ceased to be. The scepter was removed and Judah lost its royal or legal power. And us Jews knew it...those unbelievers knew it too!
    "woe unto us, for the scepter has been taken from Judah, and the Messiah has not appeared". They really did not pay attention to Yehushua, a young nazarine walking amoung them.

    And the Lord, whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple(mal.3:1)
    thise verse along with others in Tan''kh claerly show that Messiah is to arrive while the temple was still standing before the destruction of it in 70ad
    (ps118;26,dan9:26,hag2:7-9, zech 11:13)
    hmmmmm, well the temple has NEVER been rebuilt since...sooooooooooooooo....
    And after 62 weeks Messiah will be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(dan 9:26)

    we see that 1 Messiah comes(assumed) 2 Messiah is cut off(dies) 3. DEstruction of Jerusalem and the temple
    The temple and Jerusalem was detroyed by Titus and his army in 70 AD, therefore either Messiah had already come or this prophecy was a false.


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  • Matthew23
    started a topic a prophesy fulfilled...

    a prophesy fulfilled...

    I usually don't just copy and paste stuff from other sites, but I thought this was very cool...

    Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected
    Bible passage: Daniel 9:24-26
    Written: about 530 BC
    Fulfilled: about 33 AD
    The prophet Daniel was a Jew who lived during the time of the Babylonian Captivity, about 500 years before the birth of Jesus. During Daniel's lifetime, the Babylonians had destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and had taken many Jews as captives to Babylon. Daniel, while in Babylon, delivered a prophecy of what would happen during the centuries that followed. Here is our summary of Daniel 9:24-26:

    1. There would be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
    2. Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt.
    3. Then an anointed one (messiah) would be "cut off" (an idiom for "rejected" or "killed").
    4. Then Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed again.

    All of these events later happened, in the same order in which they are described in Daniel 9:24-26:

    1. After the Medo-Persians had conquered the Babylonian empire about 2540 years ago, they ruled a vast empire that included the land of Israel. About 2446 years ago (about 445 BC), Persian king Artaxerxes gave permission to the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem, which was still in ruins after having been destroyed earlier by the Babylonians.
    2. The Jews rebuilt the Temple and the city of Jerusalem.
    3. Then, about 2000 years ago, Jesus entered Jerusalem as the Messiah who had been promised by Old Testament prophets. But, many people rejected Jesus as the Messiah and He was crucified by the Romans.
    4. About 40 years after Jesus was crucified, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. (The Temple has not been rebuilt since then).
    Here is Daniel 9:24-26
    "Seventy `sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
    "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven `sevens,' and sixty-two `sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
    After the sixty-two `sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

    taken from