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**Spying** · 08-26-2002, 01:18 PM

Our Head!

Hi Scarlet,

Blessings to you through ADONAI Messiah Yahushua! Thank you for your question.

The Jews are under the Law because they rejected the rule of Messiah Yahushua:

John 1:11
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Messiah was their husband. The Jews killed their husband. Before his death, they made a vow for themselves:

Matt 27:25
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (KJV)

Messiah heard this vow, and the question becomes: Did Messiah make void their vow? Yes, I believe that Messiah did do so through his death and resurrection, and not only that, but I believe that Messiah forgave them their hostility and mistreatment of him. Even so, there is a real catch here: The Jews do not believe that Messiah is alive. For those who think him dead, their vow does stand against themselves. As it is written:

Num 30:6-9
6 And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;
7 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect (Messiah did this through his resurrection): and YAHWEH shall forgive her.
9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her. (KJV)

All those Jews who refuse Messiah as their head (I dare not make mention here of all of lost Israel who is a divorcee), they are now collectively a widow, and their vow stands against them. This means that they cannot come to repentance for HIS blood must be upon their head. So, the Jews, they and their children, are under this Law until Messiah chooses otherwise (Romans 11:32).

Hope this has been helpful as a beginning.

Sincerely, Spying

**Matthew23** · 08-26-2002, 04:14 PM

Scarlet, I wanted to make a quick response to something that you said:

Looking at the view point of 'Christianity', I see why Faith in his death is so important for salvation. They say the physical blood is what appeases the Father, and not the contrite heart.

We Christians believe that "without the shedding of blood there is not forgiveness." We also believe that the "broken spirit and contrite heart" is a testimony to the genuineness of the sinner who is sorry for what he has done. So...

It takes both the blood, which is required by the law, and the contrite heart. Who, may I ask, has been telling you what the Christians believe? Or where did you read that?

**Thummim** · 08-26-2002, 05:31 PM

A tongue that bites!

Spying writes; {Sorry, it was Matthew23's comment}

The Jews killed their husband.

...The JEWs killed their husband {GD?}. How many JEWs had their hands on the hammer? How many JEWs did it take to carry the nails used in executing another three JEWs? By this time, killing JEWs was something that Rome was very good at. And you want to blame the JEWish people for their own hurt. And where were the Romans at, who decided themselves that execution was the right penalty for these JEWs to pay, for having comitted their offences? Why would the Romans even care who offends the covenant of Abraham? Romans execute people for violating their own law.

...There is not a single spoken passage of the words of "Jesus" written down in the NT. Where are the witnesses to the spoken words of "Jesus"? This book is the opinion of its authors, who wrote the books without truly even seeing the man that they are writing about. Most of the NT gospel texts are written hundreds of years after the fact. The words of Paul seem to be the closest to the time of "Jesus". But even these words are written many years after the fact, and without witness to the event that took place. I have to doubt that anyone saw GD when "Jesus" walked by. It is Rome who had the letters of Paul archived somewhere. How do you suppose that the Roman church came by these letters and when did they decide to include them in their anti-JEWish book? The NT is literally put together by the church of Rome, after the conversion of Constintine. Do you really want to speak against the name of YaHudaH, in supporting the faith of Rome? You speak as a convinced German in the time of Hitler. These people also knew how to accuse JEWs. What they didn't realize, was their own complicity in the events that were taking place. They instead prefered to believe in the culpability of the JEWish people, like you do. The JEWish people didn't kill "Jesus". There wasn't one out of 100,000 JEWs present at this defiling of the name of YaHudaH. The assault that was carried out, was the idea of Rome. It wasn't the JEWish people who carried out these murders. It was done to the JEWish people, and not done by them. {us}. Stop waggling your tongue at the JEWish people, through your careless words. You do a great deal of hurt to the innocent.

....Michael

**Thummim** · 08-26-2002, 05:44 PM

Does bloodshed equate to forgiven sin?

Spying writes;

We Christians believe that "without the shedding of blood there is not forgiveness."

...How does shed blood vindicate the guilty? You already know that there is no forgiveness of intentional sin, through the shedding of the blood of any sacrificed animal given to the alter. {see Nu. 15: 22 - 32} So, on what scripture of the tanakh is this idea based? Show me someone who is forgiven his sin through shed blood. {other that that of the guilty who obviously isn't forgiven}

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16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

....Michael

**Scarlet** · 08-27-2002, 03:53 AM

Spp...

Thummim,

That was Matthew who quoted that...

I'll be back later.

What is today? Tuesday?

Scarlet...

**Thummim** · 08-27-2002, 09:44 AM

Sorry

...Sorry, I was a little too tired last night and didn't catch the quote in Spying's post. My complaint still go's though. {now redirected} We didn't kill our husband, he is alive and well.

....Michael

**israelthebride** · 08-27-2002, 11:41 PM

SUBMITTED

I AM SUBMITTED to YH'SHWH's SPIRIT,
WHO naturally LIVES YH'SHWH's WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation).

YH'SHWH's WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation) is HIS CHARACTER.
HIS WORD/LAW is WHO HE is.
HIS WORD/LAW is YH'SHWH describing HIMSELF.

YH'SHWH does not expect me to live HIS WORD/LAW,
but HE knows HIS SPIRIT will.

Now, HE tells me to submit to HIS SPIRIT, WHO can and will LIVE HIS WORD/LAW through ME.

_______

No one killed YH'SHWH when HE was here on earth as human. HE gave HIS LIFE. HE laid down HIS LIFE.

HE came to die.

Death (separation from HIM) had been introduced into HIS CREATION by sin,
now, through HIS SINLESS death we are redeemed from this death.

I will LIVE FOREVER with YH'SHWH.

I will experience what we call "death" (the process in which we change from this body to HIS),
but I will not experience the death YH'SHWH redeemed us from (total separation from HIM).

YH'SHWH and I are ONE.

I AM speaking in "first person", but HIS SALVATION is for all who want it.

"For GOD so LOVED the world..."

Many are called to be SAVED, but few choose to be.

LOVE,

RICOEL

**Rovivrus2** · 08-28-2002, 07:59 AM

To all:

If one grants forgiveness, it is done in order to redeem oneself. Forgiveness is not granted for the sinner, but for the one who has been wronged. I truly believe this. Imagine the impact that forgiveness has on the two parties involved. If I were to forgive Uncle X, it wouldn’t change his life one bit. But my life---I would be set free! I’m not sure how to apply this to the scriptures that you all have been discussing, sorry. Dad, you could help me out. Yes?

Peace,
Rovivrus2

**Thummim** · 08-28-2002, 10:12 AM

The "choice" to forgive?

...Rovivrus2, Does forgiveness need to be a conscience act? Must we "deliberatly" forgive someone? Doesn't healing, sometimes just take place? Forgiveness as a conscience act, seems to contain an alterior motive. What might it be? The choice to forgive someone seems different from a passive forgiveness that can come through the passing of time. I question which type of "forgiving" contains the most healing. If one gets something out of "forgiving someone", is that "forgiveness" compromised in some way? Can't forgiving one be like tossing a stone at them?

....Michael

**Spying** · 08-29-2002, 08:12 AM

Denial!

Hi Rovivus,

I approach forgiveness from the standpoint of the suffering and death of Messiah Yahushua. All of mankind is responsible for that death. Messiah was beaten to a pulp, whipped and flayed, thorns were smashed into his skull, nails were driven through his hands and feet, and Messiah was affixed and hung from a tree until he died. Messiah was an innocent man. He absolutely did not deserve this treatment and sentence.

Now, I know that our Heavenly Father has forgiven all of us for our complicity in the death of HIS Son. If forgiveness is totally accomplished for the sake of the one that forgives as you do say, then I must argue that YAH forgives for HIS own sake, and you know what, I think that you are on the right track. I am certain of the existence of this principle: We reap what we sow. We get what we give. If we forgive, we will be forgiven. Everything is like a boomerang. Now, why would YAH be concerned about being forgiven? Think about it. The spirit that is within you, the spirit that is within me, the spirit that is in all of mankind is the spirit of YAH. Forgiveness is necessary in order for this spirit to become truly one again. So, YAH does have a ulterior motive in forgiving us our transgressions against HIMSELF. Forgiveness is a form of submission, and through submission we are made free.

Now, here are a few other things to consider concerning forgiveness. We all once were little children. When we got in trouble as little children, and when we were punished by our parents, did we not always desire to be forgiven? Did we not always desire assurance that everything was again ok? Sure, we did! So, the sinner does have need of the assurance of forgiveness, that is, if the sinner does desire to restore the relationship that existed before the sin was committed with the individual that was sinned against.

Not all things are forgiven. There is one thing that is not forgiven. So, I suppose that if we are to be consistent, there is a behavior that is outside of the oneness of YAH that is determined to be incapable of being reconciled and restored. Thus, forgiveness is withheld. So, not forgiving is also done for the sake of YAH, for the sake of our oneness. I may be justifying myself here because as I write this, I am also thinking of my brother, your Uncle X.

I am glad that you entered this conversation. Yesterday, I had written a post which thoroughly lambasted Thummim and Isrealthebride for their denial of any complicity in the murder of Messiah. No one desires to take credit for shedding innocent blood. There is a ritual that is required by those who claim that they have not shed innocent blood. Pilate knew of this ritual:

Deut 21:5-9
5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them YAHWEH thy ELOHIM hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of YAHWEH; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:
6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
7 And they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, neither have our eyes seen it.
8 Be merciful, O YAHWEH, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.
9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of YAHWEH. (KJV)

Matt 27:24-25
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (KJV)

Now, I know that you do not understand these things, Rovivus, but you must seek to understand them. Messiah Yahushua is the Red Heifer. Messiah Yahushua is the HEAD of the Heifer. Mankind is the body of the Heifer both the quick and the dead. Messiah, our head, was cut off from the Land of the Living by my sin and by your sin. I am guilty of his blood. We are all guilty of HIS blood. I have been instructed to repent and be baptized for the remission (cessation) of my sin. This is the manner in which the quilt of his innocent blood is removed from me. This repentance and baptism is active. It is on going. I must be living and doing the Word of YAH (immersion in water) in order to cover the blood that was upon my head. I must also flee to a city of refuge and be judged not a deliberate murderer. I must remain in the city because my High Priest, my Head, Messiah Yahushua, lives forever. These things I know.

Now, there exists much denial concerning who exactly is responsible for the death of Messiah. You have Jewish denial, and you have Gentile denial.

All I can say to you that deny is this: Go ahead, wash your hands in water. As soon as you remove your hands from the water, you are cutting off your HEAD, and your hands are again dripping with innocent blood! This is irrespective of all the innocent blood that has been sprinkled on your body, and irrespective of the innocent blood that covers your own head especially for all those that deny Messiah is the Head. How shall you escape the wrath and revenge of YAHWEH ELOHIM?

Sincerely, Spying

**Rovivrus2** · 08-29-2002, 09:14 AM

Thummin, I am still pondering your questions. Do you question whether my perspective on forgiveness is authentic or not? Because I assure you that it is the most powerful thing that I have begun to comprehend in my journey, thus far.

Dad, I have found my own way to “escape it”. And you may be right about me having innocent blood on my hands. I sit in puddles of innocent blood when I do my work, so to speak. I work very hard to clean them up. As you know, I do help to restore lost innocence. I thank you and mom for giving me the strength to do so.

That’s all I have for now,
Peace and Love,
Rovivrus2

**Thummim** · 08-29-2002, 09:57 AM

Am I really free to choose the time of forgiveness?

Rovivrus2 writes;

Do you question whether my perspective on forgiveness is authentic or not?

...I question the forgiveness of a person as either a duty or as a means to another purpose other than forgiving a transgression. I somehow doubt that we can "choose" to forgive. How do we know that we are sincere? What has really changed? I believe that forgiveness is really something that belongs to our emotions. Can you subdue your own heart, or does it always win the arguments that you make against it?

....Michael

**Matthew23** · 08-29-2002, 05:01 PM

Does bloodshed equate to forgiven sin?

Let's continue with Psalm 51...

Psalm 51:7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;

What is the hyssop for?

**Thummim** · 08-29-2002, 08:30 PM

Cleansing vs forgiveness.

Matthew23 asks,

What is the hyssop for?

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...Lets see if there is any understanding to be found in attaching Psalms 51 to the context given.

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To the chief musician, a psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. {The introduction to Ps. 51}

II Sam. Chapter 12, verses 1 - 23

1 And YHWH sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.

2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:

3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.

4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As YHWH liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:

6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith YHWH God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of YHWH, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

11 Thus saith YHWH, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against YHWH. And Nathan said unto David, YHWH also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of YHWH to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And YHWH struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of YHWH, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

...The author of this psalm has David speaking for the dead child concieved in iniquity. {Davids sin with Bathsheba}

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps. 51: 5

...Davids child with Bathsheba is concieved in the sin of Davids transgression against Uriah, having him killed by the sword of YHWH's enemy. {vs. 51: 9}

...I assume that no sacrifice is asked by YHWH because it wouldn't do any good. YHWH forgives Davids transgression in part {vs. 51: 13}, but also forces David to live the consequences of his sin for having given occasion to Davids enemies {the ammonites} to blaspheme YHWH by his transgression. {so Davids vindication is not complete} David has touched death though, he being with the child until it dies. The law requires that he be cleansed from having touched his dead child. I'm sure that the hyssop is refering to the ashes of separation {the red heifer} being used to cleanse him from the death of the child. But David confesses that his sins require a change of heart. Forgivness from sin doesn't come from the ashes, it comes solely from YHWH, sacrifices not being required. The hyssop then pertains to being cleansed from defilement, but not to the remission of sin. In cleansing from death or disease, hyssop is used. But I doubt that ones sins can be covered by any ritual. David cannot rejoin the congregation of Israel until being cleansed from death. One is not allowed to lie to himself and say, "I am not guilty of this sin". This attitude would not yeild forgiveness. But David has pleaded and mourned for his child, throughout its entire life. He has no faith whatsoever, that YHWH will resurect him from death. {vs. 51: 23} There will be no resurrection of this childs life, and the ashes of the red heifer will not awaken him. They are solely for cleansing oneself from having touched death.

...The answer then, to your question, "what is the Hyssop for?" must be to apply cleansing to oneself from being a defiling element to others. Sin though, must be washed from the heart. That cannot be done with hyssop. Being clean and white, does not refer to being forgiven of ones sins.

....Michael

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