The first sacrifice...

[Matthew23]

Just exactly WHEN and by WHOM was the first sin sacrifice performed? Was it before Moses gave the law? After? I have an idea, but I want to know what some of you think about it.

[Thummim]

No offering exists for intentional sin!

Matthew23 writes;

Just exactly WHEN and by WHOM was the first sin sacrifice performed? Was it before Moses gave the law? After? I have an idea, but I want to know what some of you think about it.

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...This question requires some thought and and a little further qualification. Since there is no sacrifice for intentional sin, the real purpose seems to be keeping the camp, where YHWH and his people dwell, free of the imperfections of unintentional sin. Who is offended by unintentional sin? Because the people are holy {as YHWH is holy}, it seems to me that keeping the whole congregation free of all sin {like YHWH} must be the goal of the law that is written for unintentional sin. I want to address something that needs to be addressed. Cains offering is not unexceptable to YHWH, because it is of the fields. If this were the case, then the people of Israel wouldn't be asked to bring agricultural gifts along with their firstfruits to the priests. YHWH excepts agricultural offerings. YHWH just prefered the lamb that Abel offered, over the offering from the fields that Cain brought to YHWH. No sin is expiated by this gift. YHWH shows that Cain is guilty of deliberate sin, in imposing his sentence upon him. Neither can the first slaughter of mankind, excepting Noah and his family, be considered a sin offering, because judgement is passed. {no one is vindicated} For a sin offering to be valid, there must be a remission of sin involved, just as an intercessor must intercede with success, to be called an intercessor. Failure does not make either function valad. Since we already know that YHWH handles deliberate sin very well on his own {see Isa. 44: 22}, a sin offering {unintentional sin} must be deligated to the priesthood as a ritual. This offering is about cleansing, and not vindication from ones sin. All Israel is cleansed on Yom Kippur, the whole congregation not knowing what each person's sin may be.

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24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto YHWH, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto YHWH, and their sin offering before YHWH, for their ignorance:

26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.

27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before YHWH, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously {intentionally}, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

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...as there is a strong effort being made, in getting this message across to its readers. It is unlikely that any offering for "intentional" sin can exist beyond a broken spirit and a broken and a contrite heart {Ps. 51: 16, 17}, which is wholy submissive and repentent to YHWH. The fabled sin offering must take a backseat to YHWH's own grace.

....Michael

[Matthew23]

I ask one simple question, and Michael has to write a book! Thanks for the reply, Michael. Help me understand something...
If I sin unintentionally, how am I supposed to even be aware that I have committed the sin? I guess what I'm asking is: What is the difference between the two sins-unintentional and intentional? I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, I guess I'm just a little bit dull.

[Scarlet]

he he...

Matthew, if you're dull,

You should see my bowling ball...

scarlet

[Thummim]

By choice.

...Unintentional sin is not born of rebellion. It is unintentional and is treated so, only because is brings uncleanness into the camp of YHWH. No one is guilty of "unintentional" sin. It is dealt with by the priests, for those who have erred. One who "chooses" to sin, does so in the face of YHWH. That's like sticking ones tongue out at YHWH. He's been known to slap a few faces, because of those tongues. The true sin is found in the choices that we make. All our other sins are purged for us. Can a person choose to sin, and have a contrite heart?

....Michael

[Matthew23]

Let's say there was a man named Joe. Joe lived a life of sin for many years. He knew about G-d's laws, but chose not to obey them. Then one day, something happens to Joe that makes him want to keep the L-rd's commandments. He decides that he no longer wants to live a life of sin. Is it still then, impossible for the sins of Joe's past to be forgiven, since the sins of Joe's past were committed defiantly? Does Joe's guilt remain on him forever?

I don't want to get too far away from my original question (that which started this thread). Please keep the question in mind and let me know some more of your thoughts. All thoughts are welcome! I like it when many others respond to my threads, it makes me feel loved!

[Thummim]

A sacrifice will not help.

...Matthew23, does Joe have a broken spirit and a broken and contrite heart? YHWH doesn't forgive the righteous. He's used to forgiving sinners. He doesn't need a sacrifice to forgive, just a truly repentant sinner who is in covenant to him. When one chooses to live in his house, the rules of the house must be followed. YHWH can even forgive Manasseh. {II Chr. 33: 13} The sins of Manasseh are legendary.

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16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Ps. 51: 16, 17

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6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps. 40: 6

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6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mi. 6: 6 - 8

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6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos. 6: 6

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...It doesn't take a sacrifice for unintentional sin {the only kind of sacrifice that exists for sin} to deal with ones sins. Not even ones firstborn is enough to vindicate oneself of sin. A broken spirit and a broken and contrite heart is required. So how sincere is Joe?

....Michael

[Matthew23]

ohh sooo weird!

I went to bed last night thinking about my "Joe" message, and I was thinking to myself that I should have stated that Joe DOES have a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 51 is one of my favorite pieces of scripture by the way). Michael, were you reading my mind?

So then, would Joe be forgiven? Would he have to take any further steps?

[Thummim]

Put good things in your heart, because you will follow it no matter what.

...No, forgiveness is not Joes to give when he is the sinner. Its what is in the heart that counts. If YHWH likes what he sees, he will make friends with it.

25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

....Michael

[Matthew23]

When Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was this a sin of defiance, or was it an unintentional sin?

Matt

[Thummim]

Intentional sin comes only by choice.

...Defiance is an intentional sin. Both had the option of "choice". Both "chose" to ignor YHWH's warning. There is no "choice" involved with unintentional sin.

....Michael

[Matthew23]

You're not taking the bait man, so here goes...

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam knew exactly what NOT to do, and we all know what he did do:

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

YHWH said they would die as a result of their sin. Not only did He say they would die, He said they would die in the day that they ate of the tree. Well, did they die that day? Of course not! They went on to have children and were allowed to live out their lives. Does this mean, then, that YHWH does not mean what He says? No. Well, why didn't they die that day then?

First, they tried to cover up their own sin:
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

This wasn't good enough for YHWH apparently:
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the L-RD G-d make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Hmmm. Interesting. Where did these "coats of skins" come from?... This was before the Law was given to man, yet we have here in the third chapter of Genesis the first substitute that would die in the place of a man. And YHWH provided the substitute Himself (also see Genesis 22:14). He is so merciful.

Praise the Name!
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Thummim]

The grave is created on this day. {Gen. 3: 19}

Matthew23 writes;

Hmmm. Interesting. Where did these "coats of skins" come from?... This was before the Law was given to man, yet we have here in the third chapter of Genesis the first substitute that would die in the place of a man. And YHWH provided the substitute Himself (also see Genesis 22:14). He is so merciful.

...From the fig trees on which the leaves for making them grows?

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen. 3: 7

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19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen. 3: 19

The birth of the grave?

...I presume that death was born to Adam and Eve on the day that the grave gained power over them. That would be verse 19.

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....Michael

[Matthew23]

Why didn't they die that day as YHWH had told them they would? Doesn't He keep His word? Yes He does keep His word. Some kind of animal must have been killed in their place. That is the best explaination for two things: why thy didn't die that day, and how YHWH replaced their fig leaves with "skins."

And...
Consider Cain and Abel. Why did YHWH accept Abel's offering and not accept Cain's offering? How were they supposed to know what He would accept in the first place? Perhaps they had been taught by their parents, who had witnessed an acceptable sacrifice, what kind of offering YHWH accepts.

[Be still..I am]

Sins

Dear Matt.:23,

Joe's OK. Yes, all sin (intentional and unintentional) condemns all mankind to separation from God (meaning death and then at the resurrection if Joe has not repented and accepted God's plan of redemption for all mankind -- eternal, everlasting death, which I believe is the total absence of God' love and presence for us). However, Joe is saved through grace which he receives through faith (in God's mercy, through His Son, Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit), it is a gift of God so that Joe cannot run around and tell everyone how terrific he is because he follows all the laws or is better than all the rest of humanity.

Blessings, Be still...I am