The post deleted at Eliyah's Forum...

Yes, Old Shep, Paul persecuted the Jews who believed in Yahushua's doctrines and had them killed and put in prison, father, mother and children. He dragged them out of their houses. He even cross the border into another country to have them kidnapped and brought to Jerusalem for imprisonment.
Read all about it!
It is in the NT.

PS/ Historically, Christians were at each other's throat ever since Christianity was invented. There is hardly any record of Jews persecuting Christians.

-30-

No-Stranger,
"Take a closer look, Old Shep, This matter of flogging needs to be looked at objectively. It was a most benign form of persecution ever recorded in history that any human being can possibly tolerate. It is nothing like the Christian progroms, the holocaust and what have you that killed Jews by the millions."

The typical Lou response! Irrelevant, does the fact of "pogroms", etc, somehow negate the fact that Jews did persecute Christians in the early years? Ignore the blatant misquoting of scripture, the deliberate misrepresenting what the scripture says, and ricochet off the wall on a completely irrelevant issue.
"So honestly, Old Shep, what is the truth in the NT?"

It certainly isn't in any of your chopped up, misquotes, quotes attributed to the wrong person, omitted verses, etc. When I see you deal with the two blatant errors I pointed out above then I might start to believe that you have any interest in the truth.

Where is the truth in the NT?

Hi Old Shep,

Were these prophesies fulfilled? In the book of Acts I see a lot of flogging, stoning, and being turned over to the authorities! The writings of the early church also speak about persecution. Sure looks like it was fulfilled to me.

Take a closer look, Old Shep, This matter of flogging needs to be looked at objectively. It was a most benign form of persecution ever recorded in history that any human being can possibly tolerate. It is nothing like the Christian progroms, the holocaust and what have you that killed Jews by the millions. In fact, those who were supposed to be the most avowed enemies of Yahushua the Pharisees where the ones most sympathetic to the Christians. So something is not computing right and needs to be investigated. The following speech by Gamaliel sheds a lot of light on the behavior of the Pharisees. Remember that they also helped Yahushua escape danger in spite of the fact that Yahushua is allegedly attacking them without mercy, according to the Christian writers or editors of the NT. If you analyze Gamaliel’s speech you will discover that the Pharisees were HaTorah observant Jews waiting for HaMaschiach and that they had their eyes on several postulants, including Yahushua. They were Jewish patriots. All of them sharing the same expectation.

Acts 5:34 (NIV) But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while.
35 Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men.
36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing.
37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.
38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.
39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
40 His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

The only card flashing Pharisee registered in the NT as having killed a Christian was Paul of Tarsus. He assumed a Pharisee Jew identity and had the first Greek Christian killed. So it is not Yahushua’s Jewish apostles who were really persecuted, but the first martyr was a Greek Christian that was killed by the Jews under Paul’s supervision, if you will. At least that is what Luke is saying. And give me a break here, too. Just think what you are reading, this Greek fellow Steven is about to be stoned and yet he is allowed to preach a long sermon to the ultra orthodox members of the sanhedrin including Paul, just like that. Steven is said to have been “full” of the holy spook, or holy ghost, or what have you. However, his sermon was full of errors, too. He is attacking the Jews right and left. Just imagine, a Goy preaching a long sermon attacking the Jews. This blows my mind. I even question the jurisdiction of the Sanhedrin over the rights of the Greek citizens living in Jerusalem regardless of their background. We mustn’t forget that Paul played politics on his Roman citizenship to save his skin, too. So one’s citizenship in those days could buy you the next morning’s cup of coffee. Maybe Steven's error that cost his life was to imply that he was a Jew. Anyway, the grand finale of the Steven story is a pageantry of Christian fantasy. Let’s be real! It is much easier to believe in a 2 part Yahushua messianic mission than to believe the Steven story. Especially when I consider the fact that the “Jews” who delivered Yahushua to the Roman authorities did so saying that it was unlawful for them to execute anyone. So honestly, Old Shep, what is the truth in the NT?

John 18:31 (NIV) Pilate said, "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law." "But we have no right to execute anyone," the Jews objected.

IMA,
"I thought I might express to you a little of how I am thinking, is that all right? You know I have a great deal of respect for you and TSA (and consider you both Brothers), even if I do not agree with some of your doctrine. You post very accurate posts with respect to research, and you do not make many mistakes."

As Arnold would say, "No problemo."
"On the other hand, Stranger does have the tendency to make a few mistakes in his quotes, and at times appears to do so on purpose (at least from how some people think)."

If the individual in question were a young (relatively) believer with little or no formal Bible training I might understand and overlook his "few mistakes." However, this person has a Masters of Divinity, from Moody Bible Institute (MBI), a major accredited institution of Christian learning. That, requires a minimum of three years of intensive study. MBI is not some fly by night diploma mill. Anyone who continually made the number and type of errors No-"Stranger" does, would never have received a diploma. He knows better! He was also an independent Baptist and a Full Gospel minister, for a number of years. He knows better, 2X, ! The errors I pointed out above, are only two of several, in this one post.

Any adolescent who has been a believer for a year or so, with a simple, inexpensive, center/margin/footnote reference Bible would not make those "few mistakes." They were so glaring that only Bartimaeus, Stevie Wonder, or Ray Charles wouldn't have seen them. And I don't even want to talk about Augustine.
"You and TSA have failed to change Stranger with your well documented arguments based upon the traditional view."

I cannot speak for TSA, but I had long since given up on trying to "change", No-Stranger. My purpose was to expose, what can only be, his deliberate errors, falsehoods, and misrepresentations, to inform others so some unsuspecting person wouldn't be deceived.

Shalom Old Shepherd,

I thought I might express to you a little of how I am thinking, is that all right? You know I have a great deal of respect for you and TSA (and consider you both Brothers), even if I do not agree with some of your doctrine. You post very accurate posts with respect to research, and you do not make many mistakes. On the other hand, Stranger does have the tendency to make a few mistakes in his quotes, and at times appears to do so on purpose (at least from how some people think). Stranger recognizes some very fundamental discrepancies within the traditional view of "Christianity," especially with Paul's writings. Now, I am not in agreement with Stranger's degradation and open disdain for Paul and the NT, but I do recognize where he is coming from, and agree with his bottom line---things just do not add up when you destroy the Torah, and allow commandment breaking to rule. This is the traditional view of how Paul is interpreted, and for most who believe like that, the Torah is done away with, making it of no effect. So, from their perspective, if one is trying to fulfill or DO Yahweh's commands, it is as if one is spitting in the face of "Jesus."

My goal is to convince Stranger that his aversion for Paul and the NT is wrong. To do this, I will have to expose traditional "Christianity's" error with respect to Paul and the NT. You and TSA have failed to change Stranger with your well documented arguments based upon the traditional view.

I hope that Stranger and I can have a peaceful attempt to persuade one another to the proper way of understanding Yahweh. One of the key features in understanding Yahweh is to attain to a knowledge of how the "physical" teaches us about the "Spiritual." I would hope that you and TSA join in and help in that understanding, instead of trying to use all of the old traditional thinking.

Be assured though, that you can speak your mind, and try to get your point across.

No Stranger, same old Lou!

Stranger,
"I honestly give credit to those Jews who believed in Yahushua because after they did that they were called, "sons of the devil." Read the whole context.

John 2:23 (BBE) Now while he was in Jerusalem at the feast of the Passover, a great number of people (i.e. Jews) came to have faith in his name, after seeing the signs which he did.
24 But Jesus did not have faith in them, because he had knowledge of them all.
John 8:30 (NIV) Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said…
John 8:44 (NIV) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

While Stranger invites us to "read the whole context" and lists verses, I assume, to show us that context, notice that vs. 31 speaks of the Jews who had believed on Jesus. And the verse which calls some group "sons of the devil" is vs. 44. "Stranger" alleges that Jesus without any rhyme or reason insults and slanders those who believed on Him. However if we read the 13 intervening verses we see a completely different picture.
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

If those in vs. 31 are the same as those in vss. 37, and following, they may have expressed some belief, at some time, in Jesus but those whom He called "sons of the devil" had tried to kill Him. Is "Strangers' statement, above, "honest", sincere, and truthful?

"Stranger" also posted,
"Luke 11:49 (NIV) Because of this, God in his wisdom said ( Baloney! SHOW ME WHERE does it say so??? --Honestly, nobody can make the rules as the game is played! But even this one doesn’t square with the facts at hand because "Jesus" was helped to escape an alleged plot against his life. So he is a false witness against his own brethern), `I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'
50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all."

You are no "Stranger", but I'll gladly show you where it says so. You posted it further down in you own post, Matthew 23:34 and following, see below. Even a six year old child can read the passage in John (Corrected by OS. should read, "Luke") and Matthew and know beyond any doubt they are the same, without any appreciable differences. John Matthew quotes Jesus in the first person, "I am sending", Matthew Luke adds "God in His wisdom", indicating that Jesus' prophesy, that His followers would be persecuted, was from God.
"Matthew 10:17 (NIV) "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.
Matthew 23:33 (NIV) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Were these prophesies fulfilled? In the book of Acts I see a lot of flogging, stoning, and being turned over to the authorities! The writings of the early church also speak about persecution. Sure looks like it was fulfilled to me.

In ImAHebrew's response above he speaks of the "deception and hypocrisy of tradition(al) Christianity." That is strange in response to a post like yours which, as I have shown is filled with "deception and hypocrisy." I cannot see truth, or a search for it, in your post! I debated Lou at that other forum. The great majority of his posts were filled with this same kind of deception, hypocrisy, misquoting, quoting out of context, and deliberate misrepresentation. And he was shown his deliberate errors not only by Eliyah, but The Seventh Angel, the ancient sheepherder, and others and never once recognized or admitted that he was in error. Those who want to praise him and pat him on the back for his "great posts" please feel free to do so. I'll have no more to do with his writings, which are not fit for a cesspool.



[Edited by OldShepherd on 01-15-2001 at 09:57 PM]

Shalom Stranger,

Isn't it nice...the Shabbat? I am just winding down from a week of starting a new job, and totally rebuilding my hard drives.

The new job is in a related field to what I have been doing for the last 27 years(carpenter)...I am going to be a salesman for a construction company here in St. Louis (selling kitchens and baths). So the pressure is on to learn some new things, hopefully I will do well, and your prayers are welcomed.

This new job requires that I install a program for designing kitchens and baths, and my laptop hard drive did not have enough room on it. So I upgraded, and everything I tried (ghosting, imaging, tape backup) failed to get the transfer of my prior hard drive configuration to the new one. This is why it has taken so long to respond to you, I finally had to reinstall all of my applications from scratch, and it was really a pain. So, the Shabbat is really welcomed, the sun has set, and I am responding to you now.

I anxiously await your response for your understanding of Yahweh's sacrificial system.

As for as Isaiah 53 is concerned, I have been involved with extended conversations on the understanding of this chapter. Most of those who feel that this chapter points to Yahushua, use it in a very substitutional manner, and I have argued against that belief. Does this mean I would deny that Isaiah is speaking of someone other than the Messiah? No, I would not. When Peter closely quotes this chapter in his letter:

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

It appears He feels that Yahushua is referred to, and I must agree. But the PROOF that I would use to convince you that Isaiah is speaking of Yahushua, is not here, but rather in the Torah. So I await your response, and I hope that we can have a breath of fresh air together and explore Yahweh's Torah.

Shalom aleichem!

Hey ImAHebrew, I'm glad that you asked that question. I'm glad that we can work together digging the truth from a desire to make sure that what we believe is flawless.

I don't believe that I shared to a great extent with anyone my findings about all the animal sacrifices that are mentioned in HaTorah. This subject is still under my investigation and I believe that my comments or observations should be taken seriously because they are heavily based on Scriptural examples of "cause and effect" -- Hey, I really love your slogan!

Anyway, I hope to post my reply to your question by the end of next Shabbat. I need time to set my thoughts in order.

In the meantime I would like to ask you, How much of Isaiah 53 is in reference to a messiah, whoever he may be? Just for added thrill, pretend that you are reading that chapter in the Book of Isaiah the first Shabbat afer he wrote it.

Wow... I can breath fresh air in here...!

[Edited by Stranger on 01-10-2001 at 08:54 PM]

Shalom and Welcome Stranger,

It is good to have you here. Your insight into the deception and hypocrisy that tradition "Christianity" has used is similar to some of our feelings. Believing in an Elohim that REQUIRES the shedding of divine/human blood so that He can forgive, is something that we oppose. But we do believe that there is a "cause and effect," so to speak, in the shedding of blood.

One thing I would like to discuss with you is the apparent misuse of the sacrificial system that the Prophets of old spoke about. The Prophets of old were moved by Yahweh to declare to the Jewish people that their sacrifices were meaningless. The people of Israel and Judah used the sacrificial system in much the same way as traditional "Christianity" uses it...in a substitutional manner. They felt that Yahweh would be pleased with them IF they shed the blood of an innocent animal, as a substitute in their place. But Yahweh told them THROUGH the Prophets that sacrifice is not what pleased Him. There wasn't ANYTHING that they could GIVE to Yahweh that would move Him to forgive, except a contrite heart and broken spirit. To the Tzaddikim, the "cause and effect" of shedding innocent blood, IS a broken spirit and contrite heart. This is how sacrifice can work, and if the Jewish people had been moved to the position of a broken spirit and contrite heart THROUGH animal sacrifice, then the New Covenant spoken of by Yeremiah would not have been necessary.
Your post that EliYah deleted is a good summary of the objections you have raised over the last year at his forum. Those who espouse substitutionalism will not be able to answer some of your objections, but hopefully we can (through the Spirit) show you a Messiah that completely lines up with everything that is written in the Tanakh.

Can I ask you a question? What do you think the purpose of animal sacrifice was/is?

[Stranger]

Hi gang!

I am one of the exiled ones from the Eliyah Forum. I also want to post here the last message that I pinned at the Eliyah's "True Faith" forum, but it was removed without any explanation. I'm not in the business of promoting any faith, church, synagogue, idea, or way of life. As an ex Christian I am in search of something that can truly satisfy my soul. The "Jesus saves" bit doesn't compute with me anymore. Christianity is very subjective to the NT. That is the biggest problem that I have to get the truth from a Christian. I fear Yahweh. The Christians need to twist the Scriptures to make them fit their faith. All that I was getting from Eliyah was evasive answers. I am very objective and serious about my quest for the truth. Any answer that I get from any Christian defender or challenger operating in this forum will help me to strengthen my conviction either way. I want to be saved someday. Any try is worth the effort. Very few Christians quit the faith altogether, they rather move the membership to another church. I have no church to move to because I cannot accept the Christian faith anymore. I can clearly see that it is based on major forced interpretations of the Tanakh.

I can assure you that I bear no message from the devil. I never spoke to him and I never met him. I am not trying to convert anyone to atheism, either. Eliyah was very concerned about it. I believe that I am an intelligent person with an adequate IQ and sufficient maturity to tell myth from truth. I see a great deal of truth in the Tanakh. I also see a great deal of incoherence and contradictions in the NT. Christians are very gullible and do not question their faith. They are brainwashed that way. I am not blind and I want to make sure what is that I believe. Eliyah was telling me on several occasions that it was a waste of time to deal with me. I wanted to quiz him on several issues that Christians take for granted, but he had no patience with me. He was trying to scare me into submission to his faith, but he failed to realize that his catechism was not set to answer the kind of questions that I have. So I hope that the replies that I get to my questions will help everybody even if I don't believe what you are telling me. Anybody can tell if I'm an idiot for not believing what you are telling me to believe. So I hope you won’t mind me operating in this forum. The day you get tired of me I quit. However, if you do not have the answers to my questions I hate to think that you would apply the Christian method of ending any argument by putting me to the torch. Anyway, all the readers should know what is that keeps Tanakh knowledgeable people from accepting the Christian faith.

This was posted a few days ago at the "The True Faith" section of the Eliyah Discussion Forum. The first part is a rebuttal to his previous answers. I would like to have your replies to any of the points that I'm bringing up in my post. Eliyah gave up on me without answering my questions. I'm did a bit of editing to clarify the text.


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Shalom Eliyah,

If anyone wants to be an atheist, I am sure that he/she can become one without my help. "I know that my Redeemer liveth!" "As for me and my house we will serve Yahweh!" Hey, I agree with the 2 verses that you quoted…

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be Yahweh's.

Isaiah 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto Yahweh of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto Yahweh because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

but none of them say that I must believe in those saviors to obtain eternal life. I can see how you can apply Isaiah 50 to Yahushua only because you want it to fit the Yahushua or "Jesus" profile. Did he ever do any blackening of the skies, drying the seas, and the rivers, and so on? Prophecies need to be 100 per cent true. I didn't find any place in the Tanakh SPECIFICALLY saying that I must believe in a human suffering or even a victorious savior to have all my sins forgiven and have an unconditional entry into the world to come. I do know that only Yahweh can forgive sins. "Like a sheep for the slaughter" doesn’t mean to me that the messiah IS a sheep to be slaughtered and I must believe it. It is used as a description of the Jews in most of the last 2 millenia, I think.

Psalms 44:22 * Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

I can take some of your quotes around, too…

Isaiah 50:10 " Who among you fears Yahweh? Who obeys the voice of His Servant? Who walks in darkness And has no light? Let him trust in the name of Yahweh And rely upon his Elohim. 11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled -- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment.

The first verse is my testimony, the second one looks like the description of Christians celebrating Christmas. So I won't go back to this subject, and you did well to tell me to stop discussing it.

BTW, I do obey Yahushua's teaching. When a young rich ruler asked him what must he do to earn eternal life, Yahushua said to keep the commandments. He didn't tell him, "and believe in me!" Although "Jesus" said that castration is a sure way to be saved, too. I draw the line here. Are you castrated for the kingdom sake? Are you planning to? Hardly any Christian talks about it, and it is something that "Jesus" said.

Yahushua never said that he was going to die for anyone, either. I believe in a mighty messiah to come, not for one that will die for me. There are plenty of prophecies to that effect. When the real messiah comes EVERYBODY better be ready to obey him, but we are nowhere told to believe in one who already came or in one that will come be crucified and resurrected as a requirement for having all our sins forgiven. I hope you understand me clearly. Sheep are not crucified, they are roasted at the stake. Yahushua was not roasted unless he symbolically or spiritually went to the Heathen Hell. My greatest concern now is that as a savior, Yahushua or "Jesus" didn't seem to have come on a mission of salvation for Israel as outlined in the Tanakh. In the Tanakh it says that Yahweh shall save his people, but Yahushua came to damn the Jews in more than one way. I won't quote now all the many passages in the Tanakh that promise salvation to Israel without the shedding of innocent human blood, or believing in a suffering "savior," but only in a merciful Yahweh. I sense a lot of ignorance among the Christians about what the Tanakh says.

According to the record of the NT, "Jesus" is quite a damning "savior." I'm thinking of the drowning person story that is traditionally used by the Christians to illustrate how salvation is accomplished by believing in "Jesus" as savior. I don't know if you use the same illustration to "win souls," but you must have heard about it. They say that a person that is drowning ("in sin") needs a savior. When the savior comes by, the drowning person needs to volunteer out of his/her own free will to reach out to be saved. A person in that condition usually doesn’t have the time to ask many questions about the savior's credentials and so on but believes in the power that he has to save. So salvation here is dependent on a person's willingness to reach out and to cooperate to be saved. The only gross problem with this illustration is that not all the drowning persons act in the same manner. Not all of them have a chance to pick saviors. Depending on the person that is drowning, he/she may act irrationally and fight senselessly for his/her own life even to the point of endangering the "savior's" life. Fair weather "Jesus" is saying to such a drowning or lost person, "ah, ah, nothing doing, you have to believe in me, otherwise you won't get saved!"

It seems you have rejected Him already, it sure sounds like it. If that be the case, I am sure I'm wasting my time with you Lou.

So this whole story about "Jesus saves" is so phony. If you know that a person is drowning and you want to save him/her, don't give up in the middle of it. Can you imagine watching the news on TV and hearing the firemen spokesperson report that they are giving up in the rescue of a person because it is a waste of time? You can only hear this in Christianity and everybody gets a big pat on the shoulder for giving it an initial try. What's time vs. eternity, anyway? I guess that spiritual stuff is more serious than that, though. I clearly see that "Jesus saves" doesn’t fit with the way of salvation that I see in the Tanakh. The more I look at it the more convinced I am and cannot believe what you are saying. You are not trying to be too convincing, either. You are quoting passages of Scripture that need to be interpreted in a special mostly denominational way to mean what you want. I quote clear passages that say that only Yahweh saves, period. I'm talking about the kind of salvation and savior that will get me into the Olam HaBa without any hustle. If Yahweh needed a helper in this area, he would have said so, too! Clearly, of course!

In his confessions of a true lover of his chosen people Yahweh says…
Isaiah 54:4-9 * "Do not be afraid; you will not suffer shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5 For your Maker is your husband-- Yahweh Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the Elohim of all the earth.
6 Yahweh will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit-- a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your Elohim.
7 "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says Yahweh your Redeemer.
9 "To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.
55:11 * …so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

While "Jesus" of the NT says…
Matthew 15:24 (NIV) He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
John 1:11 (NIV) He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
John 6:15 (NIV) Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
Luke 19:27 (WEY) But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.'"

Wow! I see a total disconnection here between Yahweh's love for Jacob and "Jesus'" revengeful and deceptive disposition any Jew. Eliyah, what are you talking about rejection and suffering? Yahushua was so popular that they wanted to make him king by force! Then "sweet Jesus" turns around and treacherously damns them all under the false charges that they refused to accept him as king. Wow! What a savior!

"Jesus" seems to disassociate himself from his own people that he came to save. How cruel can you get? Nowhere in the gospels you read that Yahushua ever prayed for his own people, the Jews. NOWHERE! He lamented himself that they wouldn’t allow themselves to be gathered like chicks under his wings, but that's about it. He never prayed for that to happen! At least that is not on the NT record, and yet that was his coming objective, I guess. Are we learning a lesson here? If you don't pray for an objective you don't get an answer, or was the answer one of condemnation?

Yahushua seems to view Yahweh's Law as a Christian Gentile and not as a Jew. If there was a trace of love in his verbiage, he would have said, "but in our Law it is written…" or, "in my Father's Law…" but no way… oh well. On a second thought, I think that he lied here, even, misrepresenting and disassociating himself from Yahweh's Law.

John 8:17 (NIV) In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
John 10:34 (NIV) Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?
John 15:25 (NIV) But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

"Jesus" continues to vent his disassociation with the Jews saying that they are the children of the devil. So "their" Law must be the law of the devil. Anyway, he used the occasion in which MANY Jews believed in him to tell them that their father was the devil and that they really wanted to do their father's wishes. He called them liars and murderers, of course. He made them responsible for all the murders in the world, too. I honestly give credit to those Jews who believed in Yahushua because after they did that they were called, "sons of the devil." Read the whole context.

John 2:23 (BBE) Now while he was in Jerusalem at the feast of the Passover, a great number of people (i.e. Jews) came to have faith in his name, after seeing the signs which he did.
24 But Jesus did not have faith in them, because he had knowledge of them all.
John 8:30 (NIV) Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said…
John 8:44 (NIV) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Also, "Jesus" has it all wrong as far as Jerusalem killing prophets and so on… Granted that King Herod wanted to kill Yahushua like he did the pseudo Eliyah (i.e. John the Baptist), but the Jews that "Jesus" were supposed to hate the most were actually helping him to run away from King Herod. BTW, King Herod was not a Jew, but an Edomite who was put in charge of that region by the Romans.

Luke 13:31 (NIV) At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
Luke 11:49 (NIV) Because of this, God in his wisdom said ( Baloney! SHOW ME WHERE does it say so??? --Honestly, nobody can make the rules as the game is played! But even this one doesn’t square with the facts at hand because "Jesus" was helped to escape an alleged plot against his life. So he is a false witness against his own brethern), `I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'
50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Hey, what do you know? I just learned that "Jesus" damnation of the Jews as responsible for all the murders in the world is based on a bogus prophecy! This is a great Shabbat for me! Halleluyah! I really love you, Eliyah! I learned a lot of things in or because of your forum! So don't give up on me, please!

Yahweh is so positive. He says that his word will never return void and here is "Jesus" saying that there will be a lot of trouble with the Jews. BTW, a lot of these "Jesus" prophecies never happened, and most likely never will. Like the whipping of Christians in the Synagogues. I think that the early church fathers felt that a backlash was forthcoming, and very rightly so, and that a prophetic word about it was in order… Oh well… The Tanakh says that a prophet has to be 100 per cent correct… and it doesn't say, "some of the time." Actually, what really happened is that the Christians were torching the Jews by the millions. So it is no small wonder that the Jews are men acquainted with suffering and grief, just like Isaiah said it.

Matthew 10:17 (NIV) "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.
Matthew 23:33 (NIV) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

I read your comment justifying Yahushua for going on a whipping spree around the temple chasing the buyers and sellers, and so on. You must remember that the Temple of Jerusalem was in a rather small area. The "market place" must have been operating outside the temple grounds. There must have been a proper order in the temple area because they wouldn't allow any Gentile inside. If there was a "market place" inside the temple, I'm sure that Paul would have mentioned it. So I still find it hard to believe that Yahushua actually made himself a whip before going on a rampage turning over tables, chairs, cash registers, and so on. It really hurts my heart to think about those Jews who came to Jerusalem for the Passover feast in fulfillment of Yahweh's HaTorah and were met there by a whip wielding "Jesus" chasing them away from the temple. Only Christians who hate Jews can love that story. Your catechist explanation opens the door for so many more questions, but I rather stop here and move on to another subject.

Your interpretation of the case of Abraham sacrificing Isaac is not the same one that I see when I read the Tanakh. Nowhere does it say that Yahweh will get his Son or messiah to be sacrificed instead of Isaac, and much less for the sins of the world. I learned that in the story about Abraham and Isaac, Yahweh doesn’t want a human sacrifice like the Heathen do to pacify their idols. Yahweh provided himself a ram for the sacrifice, instead. In that he taught us what is that he really wants for sacrifice. So why do you make the passage say something that is not there? The Christians do that to fit the human sacrifice of "Jesus" for the sins of the world, otherwise there is no other reason that I know.

I think that you failed to point out to me where the Scriptures clearly say that Yahweh demands a human sacrifice for the atonement of the sins of the world. You are quoting a few passages about figures of speech that hardly prove anything except by interpretation. One has to be heavily biased about "Jesus" and be pretty blind to history and the Jews to believe what you are saying. Anyway, I am still studying about this subject.

Let me tell you that I still giving Yahushua a fair chance for vindication. I have the impression that he really existed, but that he never did or say a lot of the things that are attributed to him. Maybe he was a messiah. I'm still investigating this possibility because of the 70 week prophecy in Daniel. Jeremiah came up with a prophecy of 70 years and it was fulfilled, and later Daniel came up with one of 70 weeks. I wonder about the meaning of the 70 week of Daniel. The floating one week that we all hear about doesn't make much sense except to justify the extension of the original 70 weeks. BTW, in that floating week is when the Jews will suffer like never before, according to the Christians who expect to be rapture just before it happens. So I'm still looking into this. I'm in a very early stage of study so I don't have any worthwhile statement yet. I'll post my findings in due time. I wonder if anyone posted anything about the 70 week of Daniel in the main forum of knows of any web site that is worthwhile considering.

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Thus endeth my last post that was deleted at the Eliyah's Forum. I want to discuss the points that I'm raising in my post. Please don't give up on me!