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Hi gang!
I am one of the exiled ones from the Eliyah Forum. I also want to post here the last message that I pinned at the Eliyah's "True Faith" forum, but it was removed without any explanation. I'm not in the business of promoting any faith, church, synagogue, idea, or way of life. As an ex Christian I am in search of something that can truly satisfy my soul. The "Jesus saves" bit doesn't compute with me anymore. Christianity is very subjective to the NT. That is the biggest problem that I have to get the truth from a Christian. I fear Yahweh. The Christians need to twist the Scriptures to make them fit their faith. All that I was getting from Eliyah was evasive answers. I am very objective and serious about my quest for the truth. Any answer that I get from any Christian defender or challenger operating in this forum will help me to strengthen my conviction either way. I want to be saved someday. Any try is worth the effort. Very few Christians quit the faith altogether, they rather move the membership to another church. I have no church to move to because I cannot accept the Christian faith anymore. I can clearly see that it is based on major forced interpretations of the Tanakh.
I can assure you that I bear no message from the devil. I never spoke to him and I never met him. I am not trying to convert anyone to atheism, either. Eliyah was very concerned about it. I believe that I am an intelligent person with an adequate IQ and sufficient maturity to tell myth from truth. I see a great deal of truth in the Tanakh. I also see a great deal of incoherence and contradictions in the NT. Christians are very gullible and do not question their faith. They are brainwashed that way. I am not blind and I want to make sure what is that I believe. Eliyah was telling me on several occasions that it was a waste of time to deal with me. I wanted to quiz him on several issues that Christians take for granted, but he had no patience with me. He was trying to scare me into submission to his faith, but he failed to realize that his catechism was not set to answer the kind of questions that I have. So I hope that the replies that I get to my questions will help everybody even if I don't believe what you are telling me. Anybody can tell if I'm an idiot for not believing what you are telling me to believe. So I hope you won’t mind me operating in this forum. The day you get tired of me I quit. However, if you do not have the answers to my questions I hate to think that you would apply the Christian method of ending any argument by putting me to the torch. Anyway, all the readers should know what is that keeps Tanakh knowledgeable people from accepting the Christian faith.
This was posted a few days ago at the "The True Faith" section of the Eliyah Discussion Forum. The first part is a rebuttal to his previous answers. I would like to have your replies to any of the points that I'm bringing up in my post. Eliyah gave up on me without answering my questions. I'm did a bit of editing to clarify the text.
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Shalom Eliyah,
If anyone wants to be an atheist, I am sure that he/she can become one without my help. "I know that my Redeemer liveth!" "As for me and my house we will serve Yahweh!" Hey, I agree with the 2 verses that you quoted…
but none of them say that I must believe in those saviors to obtain eternal life. I can see how you can apply Isaiah 50 to Yahushua only because you want it to fit the Yahushua or "Jesus" profile. Did he ever do any blackening of the skies, drying the seas, and the rivers, and so on? Prophecies need to be 100 per cent true. I didn't find any place in the Tanakh SPECIFICALLY saying that I must believe in a human suffering or even a victorious savior to have all my sins forgiven and have an unconditional entry into the world to come. I do know that only Yahweh can forgive sins. "Like a sheep for the slaughter" doesn’t mean to me that the messiah IS a sheep to be slaughtered and I must believe it. It is used as a description of the Jews in most of the last 2 millenia, I think.
Psalms 44:22 * Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
I can take some of your quotes around, too…
Isaiah 50:10 " Who among you fears Yahweh? Who obeys the voice of His Servant? Who walks in darkness And has no light? Let him trust in the name of Yahweh And rely upon his Elohim. 11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled -- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment.
The first verse is my testimony, the second one looks like the description of Christians celebrating Christmas. So I won't go back to this subject, and you did well to tell me to stop discussing it.
BTW, I do obey Yahushua's teaching. When a young rich ruler asked him what must he do to earn eternal life, Yahushua said to keep the commandments. He didn't tell him, "and believe in me!" Although "Jesus" said that castration is a sure way to be saved, too. I draw the line here. Are you castrated for the kingdom sake? Are you planning to? Hardly any Christian talks about it, and it is something that "Jesus" said.
Yahushua never said that he was going to die for anyone, either. I believe in a mighty messiah to come, not for one that will die for me. There are plenty of prophecies to that effect. When the real messiah comes EVERYBODY better be ready to obey him, but we are nowhere told to believe in one who already came or in one that will come be crucified and resurrected as a requirement for having all our sins forgiven. I hope you understand me clearly. Sheep are not crucified, they are roasted at the stake. Yahushua was not roasted unless he symbolically or spiritually went to the Heathen Hell. My greatest concern now is that as a savior, Yahushua or "Jesus" didn't seem to have come on a mission of salvation for Israel as outlined in the Tanakh. In the Tanakh it says that Yahweh shall save his people, but Yahushua came to damn the Jews in more than one way. I won't quote now all the many passages in the Tanakh that promise salvation to Israel without the shedding of innocent human blood, or believing in a suffering "savior," but only in a merciful Yahweh. I sense a lot of ignorance among the Christians about what the Tanakh says.
According to the record of the NT, "Jesus" is quite a damning "savior." I'm thinking of the drowning person story that is traditionally used by the Christians to illustrate how salvation is accomplished by believing in "Jesus" as savior. I don't know if you use the same illustration to "win souls," but you must have heard about it. They say that a person that is drowning ("in sin") needs a savior. When the savior comes by, the drowning person needs to volunteer out of his/her own free will to reach out to be saved. A person in that condition usually doesn’t have the time to ask many questions about the savior's credentials and so on but believes in the power that he has to save. So salvation here is dependent on a person's willingness to reach out and to cooperate to be saved. The only gross problem with this illustration is that not all the drowning persons act in the same manner. Not all of them have a chance to pick saviors. Depending on the person that is drowning, he/she may act irrationally and fight senselessly for his/her own life even to the point of endangering the "savior's" life. Fair weather "Jesus" is saying to such a drowning or lost person, "ah, ah, nothing doing, you have to believe in me, otherwise you won't get saved!"
So this whole story about "Jesus saves" is so phony. If you know that a person is drowning and you want to save him/her, don't give up in the middle of it. Can you imagine watching the news on TV and hearing the firemen spokesperson report that they are giving up in the rescue of a person because it is a waste of time? You can only hear this in Christianity and everybody gets a big pat on the shoulder for giving it an initial try. What's time vs. eternity, anyway? I guess that spiritual stuff is more serious than that, though. I clearly see that "Jesus saves" doesn’t fit with the way of salvation that I see in the Tanakh. The more I look at it the more convinced I am and cannot believe what you are saying. You are not trying to be too convincing, either. You are quoting passages of Scripture that need to be interpreted in a special mostly denominational way to mean what you want. I quote clear passages that say that only Yahweh saves, period. I'm talking about the kind of salvation and savior that will get me into the Olam HaBa without any hustle. If Yahweh needed a helper in this area, he would have said so, too! Clearly, of course!
In his confessions of a true lover of his chosen people Yahweh says…
Isaiah 54:4-9 * "Do not be afraid; you will not suffer shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5 For your Maker is your husband-- Yahweh Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the Elohim of all the earth.
6 Yahweh will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit-- a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your Elohim.
7 "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says Yahweh your Redeemer.
9 "To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.
55:11 * …so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
While "Jesus" of the NT says…
Matthew 15:24 (NIV) He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
John 1:11 (NIV) He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
John 6:15 (NIV) Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
Luke 19:27 (WEY) But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.'"
Wow! I see a total disconnection here between Yahweh's love for Jacob and "Jesus'" revengeful and deceptive disposition any Jew. Eliyah, what are you talking about rejection and suffering? Yahushua was so popular that they wanted to make him king by force! Then "sweet Jesus" turns around and treacherously damns them all under the false charges that they refused to accept him as king. Wow! What a savior!
"Jesus" seems to disassociate himself from his own people that he came to save. How cruel can you get? Nowhere in the gospels you read that Yahushua ever prayed for his own people, the Jews. NOWHERE! He lamented himself that they wouldn’t allow themselves to be gathered like chicks under his wings, but that's about it. He never prayed for that to happen! At least that is not on the NT record, and yet that was his coming objective, I guess. Are we learning a lesson here? If you don't pray for an objective you don't get an answer, or was the answer one of condemnation?
Yahushua seems to view Yahweh's Law as a Christian Gentile and not as a Jew. If there was a trace of love in his verbiage, he would have said, "but in our Law it is written…" or, "in my Father's Law…" but no way… oh well. On a second thought, I think that he lied here, even, misrepresenting and disassociating himself from Yahweh's Law.
John 8:17 (NIV) In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
John 10:34 (NIV) Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?
John 15:25 (NIV) But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
"Jesus" continues to vent his disassociation with the Jews saying that they are the children of the devil. So "their" Law must be the law of the devil. Anyway, he used the occasion in which MANY Jews believed in him to tell them that their father was the devil and that they really wanted to do their father's wishes. He called them liars and murderers, of course. He made them responsible for all the murders in the world, too. I honestly give credit to those Jews who believed in Yahushua because after they did that they were called, "sons of the devil." Read the whole context.
John 2:23 (BBE) Now while he was in Jerusalem at the feast of the Passover, a great number of people (i.e. Jews) came to have faith in his name, after seeing the signs which he did.
24 But Jesus did not have faith in them, because he had knowledge of them all.
John 8:30 (NIV) Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said…
John 8:44 (NIV) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Also, "Jesus" has it all wrong as far as Jerusalem killing prophets and so on… Granted that King Herod wanted to kill Yahushua like he did the pseudo Eliyah (i.e. John the Baptist), but the Jews that "Jesus" were supposed to hate the most were actually helping him to run away from King Herod. BTW, King Herod was not a Jew, but an Edomite who was put in charge of that region by the Romans.
Luke 13:31 (NIV) At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
Luke 11:49 (NIV) Because of this, God in his wisdom said ( Baloney! SHOW ME WHERE does it say so??? --Honestly, nobody can make the rules as the game is played! But even this one doesn’t square with the facts at hand because "Jesus" was helped to escape an alleged plot against his life. So he is a false witness against his own brethern), `I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'
50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
Hey, what do you know? I just learned that "Jesus" damnation of the Jews as responsible for all the murders in the world is based on a bogus prophecy! This is a great Shabbat for me! Halleluyah! I really love you, Eliyah! I learned a lot of things in or because of your forum! So don't give up on me, please!
Yahweh is so positive. He says that his word will never return void and here is "Jesus" saying that there will be a lot of trouble with the Jews. BTW, a lot of these "Jesus" prophecies never happened, and most likely never will. Like the whipping of Christians in the Synagogues. I think that the early church fathers felt that a backlash was forthcoming, and very rightly so, and that a prophetic word about it was in order… Oh well… The Tanakh says that a prophet has to be 100 per cent correct… and it doesn't say, "some of the time." Actually, what really happened is that the Christians were torching the Jews by the millions. So it is no small wonder that the Jews are men acquainted with suffering and grief, just like Isaiah said it.
Matthew 10:17 (NIV) "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.
Matthew 23:33 (NIV) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
I read your comment justifying Yahushua for going on a whipping spree around the temple chasing the buyers and sellers, and so on. You must remember that the Temple of Jerusalem was in a rather small area. The "market place" must have been operating outside the temple grounds. There must have been a proper order in the temple area because they wouldn't allow any Gentile inside. If there was a "market place" inside the temple, I'm sure that Paul would have mentioned it. So I still find it hard to believe that Yahushua actually made himself a whip before going on a rampage turning over tables, chairs, cash registers, and so on. It really hurts my heart to think about those Jews who came to Jerusalem for the Passover feast in fulfillment of Yahweh's HaTorah and were met there by a whip wielding "Jesus" chasing them away from the temple. Only Christians who hate Jews can love that story. Your catechist explanation opens the door for so many more questions, but I rather stop here and move on to another subject.
Your interpretation of the case of Abraham sacrificing Isaac is not the same one that I see when I read the Tanakh. Nowhere does it say that Yahweh will get his Son or messiah to be sacrificed instead of Isaac, and much less for the sins of the world. I learned that in the story about Abraham and Isaac, Yahweh doesn’t want a human sacrifice like the Heathen do to pacify their idols. Yahweh provided himself a ram for the sacrifice, instead. In that he taught us what is that he really wants for sacrifice. So why do you make the passage say something that is not there? The Christians do that to fit the human sacrifice of "Jesus" for the sins of the world, otherwise there is no other reason that I know.
I think that you failed to point out to me where the Scriptures clearly say that Yahweh demands a human sacrifice for the atonement of the sins of the world. You are quoting a few passages about figures of speech that hardly prove anything except by interpretation. One has to be heavily biased about "Jesus" and be pretty blind to history and the Jews to believe what you are saying. Anyway, I am still studying about this subject.
Let me tell you that I still giving Yahushua a fair chance for vindication. I have the impression that he really existed, but that he never did or say a lot of the things that are attributed to him. Maybe he was a messiah. I'm still investigating this possibility because of the 70 week prophecy in Daniel. Jeremiah came up with a prophecy of 70 years and it was fulfilled, and later Daniel came up with one of 70 weeks. I wonder about the meaning of the 70 week of Daniel. The floating one week that we all hear about doesn't make much sense except to justify the extension of the original 70 weeks. BTW, in that floating week is when the Jews will suffer like never before, according to the Christians who expect to be rapture just before it happens. So I'm still looking into this. I'm in a very early stage of study so I don't have any worthwhile statement yet. I'll post my findings in due time. I wonder if anyone posted anything about the 70 week of Daniel in the main forum of knows of any web site that is worthwhile considering.
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Thus endeth my last post that was deleted at the Eliyah's Forum. I want to discuss the points that I'm raising in my post. Please don't give up on me!
I am one of the exiled ones from the Eliyah Forum. I also want to post here the last message that I pinned at the Eliyah's "True Faith" forum, but it was removed without any explanation. I'm not in the business of promoting any faith, church, synagogue, idea, or way of life. As an ex Christian I am in search of something that can truly satisfy my soul. The "Jesus saves" bit doesn't compute with me anymore. Christianity is very subjective to the NT. That is the biggest problem that I have to get the truth from a Christian. I fear Yahweh. The Christians need to twist the Scriptures to make them fit their faith. All that I was getting from Eliyah was evasive answers. I am very objective and serious about my quest for the truth. Any answer that I get from any Christian defender or challenger operating in this forum will help me to strengthen my conviction either way. I want to be saved someday. Any try is worth the effort. Very few Christians quit the faith altogether, they rather move the membership to another church. I have no church to move to because I cannot accept the Christian faith anymore. I can clearly see that it is based on major forced interpretations of the Tanakh.
I can assure you that I bear no message from the devil. I never spoke to him and I never met him. I am not trying to convert anyone to atheism, either. Eliyah was very concerned about it. I believe that I am an intelligent person with an adequate IQ and sufficient maturity to tell myth from truth. I see a great deal of truth in the Tanakh. I also see a great deal of incoherence and contradictions in the NT. Christians are very gullible and do not question their faith. They are brainwashed that way. I am not blind and I want to make sure what is that I believe. Eliyah was telling me on several occasions that it was a waste of time to deal with me. I wanted to quiz him on several issues that Christians take for granted, but he had no patience with me. He was trying to scare me into submission to his faith, but he failed to realize that his catechism was not set to answer the kind of questions that I have. So I hope that the replies that I get to my questions will help everybody even if I don't believe what you are telling me. Anybody can tell if I'm an idiot for not believing what you are telling me to believe. So I hope you won’t mind me operating in this forum. The day you get tired of me I quit. However, if you do not have the answers to my questions I hate to think that you would apply the Christian method of ending any argument by putting me to the torch. Anyway, all the readers should know what is that keeps Tanakh knowledgeable people from accepting the Christian faith.
This was posted a few days ago at the "The True Faith" section of the Eliyah Discussion Forum. The first part is a rebuttal to his previous answers. I would like to have your replies to any of the points that I'm bringing up in my post. Eliyah gave up on me without answering my questions. I'm did a bit of editing to clarify the text.
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Shalom Eliyah,
If anyone wants to be an atheist, I am sure that he/she can become one without my help. "I know that my Redeemer liveth!" "As for me and my house we will serve Yahweh!" Hey, I agree with the 2 verses that you quoted…
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be Yahweh's.
Isaiah 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto Yahweh of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto Yahweh because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Isaiah 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto Yahweh of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto Yahweh because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Psalms 44:22 * Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
I can take some of your quotes around, too…
Isaiah 50:10 " Who among you fears Yahweh? Who obeys the voice of His Servant? Who walks in darkness And has no light? Let him trust in the name of Yahweh And rely upon his Elohim. 11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled -- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment.
The first verse is my testimony, the second one looks like the description of Christians celebrating Christmas. So I won't go back to this subject, and you did well to tell me to stop discussing it.
BTW, I do obey Yahushua's teaching. When a young rich ruler asked him what must he do to earn eternal life, Yahushua said to keep the commandments. He didn't tell him, "and believe in me!" Although "Jesus" said that castration is a sure way to be saved, too. I draw the line here. Are you castrated for the kingdom sake? Are you planning to? Hardly any Christian talks about it, and it is something that "Jesus" said.
Yahushua never said that he was going to die for anyone, either. I believe in a mighty messiah to come, not for one that will die for me. There are plenty of prophecies to that effect. When the real messiah comes EVERYBODY better be ready to obey him, but we are nowhere told to believe in one who already came or in one that will come be crucified and resurrected as a requirement for having all our sins forgiven. I hope you understand me clearly. Sheep are not crucified, they are roasted at the stake. Yahushua was not roasted unless he symbolically or spiritually went to the Heathen Hell. My greatest concern now is that as a savior, Yahushua or "Jesus" didn't seem to have come on a mission of salvation for Israel as outlined in the Tanakh. In the Tanakh it says that Yahweh shall save his people, but Yahushua came to damn the Jews in more than one way. I won't quote now all the many passages in the Tanakh that promise salvation to Israel without the shedding of innocent human blood, or believing in a suffering "savior," but only in a merciful Yahweh. I sense a lot of ignorance among the Christians about what the Tanakh says.
According to the record of the NT, "Jesus" is quite a damning "savior." I'm thinking of the drowning person story that is traditionally used by the Christians to illustrate how salvation is accomplished by believing in "Jesus" as savior. I don't know if you use the same illustration to "win souls," but you must have heard about it. They say that a person that is drowning ("in sin") needs a savior. When the savior comes by, the drowning person needs to volunteer out of his/her own free will to reach out to be saved. A person in that condition usually doesn’t have the time to ask many questions about the savior's credentials and so on but believes in the power that he has to save. So salvation here is dependent on a person's willingness to reach out and to cooperate to be saved. The only gross problem with this illustration is that not all the drowning persons act in the same manner. Not all of them have a chance to pick saviors. Depending on the person that is drowning, he/she may act irrationally and fight senselessly for his/her own life even to the point of endangering the "savior's" life. Fair weather "Jesus" is saying to such a drowning or lost person, "ah, ah, nothing doing, you have to believe in me, otherwise you won't get saved!"
It seems you have rejected Him already, it sure sounds like it. If that be the case, I am sure I'm wasting my time with you Lou.
In his confessions of a true lover of his chosen people Yahweh says…
Isaiah 54:4-9 * "Do not be afraid; you will not suffer shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5 For your Maker is your husband-- Yahweh Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the Elohim of all the earth.
6 Yahweh will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit-- a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your Elohim.
7 "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says Yahweh your Redeemer.
9 "To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.
55:11 * …so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
While "Jesus" of the NT says…
Matthew 15:24 (NIV) He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
John 1:11 (NIV) He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
John 6:15 (NIV) Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
Luke 19:27 (WEY) But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.'"
Wow! I see a total disconnection here between Yahweh's love for Jacob and "Jesus'" revengeful and deceptive disposition any Jew. Eliyah, what are you talking about rejection and suffering? Yahushua was so popular that they wanted to make him king by force! Then "sweet Jesus" turns around and treacherously damns them all under the false charges that they refused to accept him as king. Wow! What a savior!
"Jesus" seems to disassociate himself from his own people that he came to save. How cruel can you get? Nowhere in the gospels you read that Yahushua ever prayed for his own people, the Jews. NOWHERE! He lamented himself that they wouldn’t allow themselves to be gathered like chicks under his wings, but that's about it. He never prayed for that to happen! At least that is not on the NT record, and yet that was his coming objective, I guess. Are we learning a lesson here? If you don't pray for an objective you don't get an answer, or was the answer one of condemnation?
Yahushua seems to view Yahweh's Law as a Christian Gentile and not as a Jew. If there was a trace of love in his verbiage, he would have said, "but in our Law it is written…" or, "in my Father's Law…" but no way… oh well. On a second thought, I think that he lied here, even, misrepresenting and disassociating himself from Yahweh's Law.
John 8:17 (NIV) In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
John 10:34 (NIV) Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?
John 15:25 (NIV) But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
"Jesus" continues to vent his disassociation with the Jews saying that they are the children of the devil. So "their" Law must be the law of the devil. Anyway, he used the occasion in which MANY Jews believed in him to tell them that their father was the devil and that they really wanted to do their father's wishes. He called them liars and murderers, of course. He made them responsible for all the murders in the world, too. I honestly give credit to those Jews who believed in Yahushua because after they did that they were called, "sons of the devil." Read the whole context.
John 2:23 (BBE) Now while he was in Jerusalem at the feast of the Passover, a great number of people (i.e. Jews) came to have faith in his name, after seeing the signs which he did.
24 But Jesus did not have faith in them, because he had knowledge of them all.
John 8:30 (NIV) Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said…
John 8:44 (NIV) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Also, "Jesus" has it all wrong as far as Jerusalem killing prophets and so on… Granted that King Herod wanted to kill Yahushua like he did the pseudo Eliyah (i.e. John the Baptist), but the Jews that "Jesus" were supposed to hate the most were actually helping him to run away from King Herod. BTW, King Herod was not a Jew, but an Edomite who was put in charge of that region by the Romans.
Luke 13:31 (NIV) At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
Luke 11:49 (NIV) Because of this, God in his wisdom said ( Baloney! SHOW ME WHERE does it say so??? --Honestly, nobody can make the rules as the game is played! But even this one doesn’t square with the facts at hand because "Jesus" was helped to escape an alleged plot against his life. So he is a false witness against his own brethern), `I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'
50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
Hey, what do you know? I just learned that "Jesus" damnation of the Jews as responsible for all the murders in the world is based on a bogus prophecy! This is a great Shabbat for me! Halleluyah! I really love you, Eliyah! I learned a lot of things in or because of your forum! So don't give up on me, please!
Yahweh is so positive. He says that his word will never return void and here is "Jesus" saying that there will be a lot of trouble with the Jews. BTW, a lot of these "Jesus" prophecies never happened, and most likely never will. Like the whipping of Christians in the Synagogues. I think that the early church fathers felt that a backlash was forthcoming, and very rightly so, and that a prophetic word about it was in order… Oh well… The Tanakh says that a prophet has to be 100 per cent correct… and it doesn't say, "some of the time." Actually, what really happened is that the Christians were torching the Jews by the millions. So it is no small wonder that the Jews are men acquainted with suffering and grief, just like Isaiah said it.
Matthew 10:17 (NIV) "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.
Matthew 23:33 (NIV) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
I read your comment justifying Yahushua for going on a whipping spree around the temple chasing the buyers and sellers, and so on. You must remember that the Temple of Jerusalem was in a rather small area. The "market place" must have been operating outside the temple grounds. There must have been a proper order in the temple area because they wouldn't allow any Gentile inside. If there was a "market place" inside the temple, I'm sure that Paul would have mentioned it. So I still find it hard to believe that Yahushua actually made himself a whip before going on a rampage turning over tables, chairs, cash registers, and so on. It really hurts my heart to think about those Jews who came to Jerusalem for the Passover feast in fulfillment of Yahweh's HaTorah and were met there by a whip wielding "Jesus" chasing them away from the temple. Only Christians who hate Jews can love that story. Your catechist explanation opens the door for so many more questions, but I rather stop here and move on to another subject.
Your interpretation of the case of Abraham sacrificing Isaac is not the same one that I see when I read the Tanakh. Nowhere does it say that Yahweh will get his Son or messiah to be sacrificed instead of Isaac, and much less for the sins of the world. I learned that in the story about Abraham and Isaac, Yahweh doesn’t want a human sacrifice like the Heathen do to pacify their idols. Yahweh provided himself a ram for the sacrifice, instead. In that he taught us what is that he really wants for sacrifice. So why do you make the passage say something that is not there? The Christians do that to fit the human sacrifice of "Jesus" for the sins of the world, otherwise there is no other reason that I know.
I think that you failed to point out to me where the Scriptures clearly say that Yahweh demands a human sacrifice for the atonement of the sins of the world. You are quoting a few passages about figures of speech that hardly prove anything except by interpretation. One has to be heavily biased about "Jesus" and be pretty blind to history and the Jews to believe what you are saying. Anyway, I am still studying about this subject.
Let me tell you that I still giving Yahushua a fair chance for vindication. I have the impression that he really existed, but that he never did or say a lot of the things that are attributed to him. Maybe he was a messiah. I'm still investigating this possibility because of the 70 week prophecy in Daniel. Jeremiah came up with a prophecy of 70 years and it was fulfilled, and later Daniel came up with one of 70 weeks. I wonder about the meaning of the 70 week of Daniel. The floating one week that we all hear about doesn't make much sense except to justify the extension of the original 70 weeks. BTW, in that floating week is when the Jews will suffer like never before, according to the Christians who expect to be rapture just before it happens. So I'm still looking into this. I'm in a very early stage of study so I don't have any worthwhile statement yet. I'll post my findings in due time. I wonder if anyone posted anything about the 70 week of Daniel in the main forum of knows of any web site that is worthwhile considering.
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Thus endeth my last post that was deleted at the Eliyah's Forum. I want to discuss the points that I'm raising in my post. Please don't give up on me!
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