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**Thummim** · 07-14-2002, 09:43 AM

Forgotten Sins.

Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.

For they have devoured Jacob, and laid waste his dwelling place.

O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.

9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. Ps. 79: 6 - 9

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...Ricoel, it seems that YHWH has forgotten his people's sins forever, and has cast them into the depths of the sea. Now all Israel is righteous, though they fall upon their faces now and then, as did David. For GD's namesake, all Israel is righteous, dating from the time of Cyrus.

....Michael

**Spying** · 07-14-2002, 10:07 AM

Power From On High

Hi Israelthebride,

Good morning to you! I really like your post,

I mean I really like your post! I have a host of questions for you, and do not think in any fashion that I am coming at you in the asking, but I am trained to argue and debate about the truth, and usually, I do not open my mouth without knowing where I stand on any issue. In others words, when I write on an issue, I usually know where I stand concerning what I write. You, however, have made such an interesting post that I am totally disarmed, and I am placed in an investigative mode so my guard is down.

The disciples of Messiah were individually chosen by Yahushua. They numbered twelve:

Matt 19:28-30
28 And Yahushua said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. (KJV)

My Messiah, I have been jealous of the opportunity and position given to the Twelve. What about us?

I believe that the regeneration spoken about is the Resurrection of Messiah. Of the Twelve, one was a devil. I believe that in appearance that he looked almost identical to Messiah in a physical sense. In other words, he could have passed for a twin. I believe that the scapegoat is a picture of him. Reuben I believe is also a picture of him as Saul does also appear to be. Consider these sets of correlating circumstances about Reuben and Judas and Saul:

Gen 49:3-4
3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch. (KJV)

At the supper in which Messiah instituted the New Covenant with his disciples, who was it that defiled this intimacy?:

Mark 14:18
18 And as they sat and did eat, Yahushua said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. (KJV)

I hope that you can follow me here. This eating of which Messiah speaks at the supper is actually the doing of the will of his father (YAHWEH ELOHIM) and finishing HIS work. So, Saul does also fit into this picture. Saul took to his ownself work not befitting him as did Judas. Both Reuben and Saul are shadows of Judas, and Judas is a shadow of a certain one today. Judas defiled the couch of Messiah. He was a guilty sotah. This is why he is given over to Satan who always stands as a ready man. Sotahs often take their own lives. Some are in denial. "Unstable as water" when I read this description, I worry about myself!

These eleven were scattered when the shepherd was killed. After Messiah's resurrection, the reconstituted twelve were again gathered to receive power, that is, the Holy Spirit. Why was Paul added? Perhaps, Paul was added because there are really thirteen tribes since Joseph has a double portion? Perhaps, Paul was added because twelve disciples must sit with Messiah at the throne judging? What does it mean to judge?

I am a part of Israel. How is it that they do now judge me or rule over me?

I ask all: Where did you get your power, the spirit, and from whom did you get it? If the same spirit is given to both of the Temples, then we share in their judgment, and I can see how the first shall be last and the last shall be first. We are one! I have felt for a long time that I have been given in a certain sense a sharing in the same spirit that Paul was given. In other words, we did both receive, and we both have utilized the same power.

Now, why is the glory of the second Temple, that is, the Body of Messiah today, less initially than the first Temple, the Body of Messiah, two thousand years ago? If we have the same spirit, if we are given the same gifts from Messiah and from the twelve, why are we less? I have grown to believe that one of the disciples, the disciple whom Yahushua loved (What is it that YAHUSHUA loves?), is still alive, and I have been seeking him. Now, that should make you laugh!

We have less glory because we do not share in all the power. John still retains his power (and perhaps, Mary, also), and he has been waiting a long time to give it up with us!

Sincerely, Spying

**israelthebride** · 07-14-2002, 09:55 PM

WE are not less.

My FRIEND,

WE are not less.

It is not our time, yet.

Remember,

"...a woman will surround a man..."

I know that it is not our time yet,
but HOLY SPIRIT said for US to remember
"...a woman will surround a man..."

Do you think that it is SHE WHO surrounds the MAN---HIS BODY?

I don't know.

LOVE, RICOEL

________________

I am editing this in, I forgot.

SAUL is CHOSEN by YH'SHWH HIMSELF.

It is good you remember that there are 13 tribes.

Two are in the land (Yehudah and Benjamin).

Ten are still in the "wilderness"

and one of the tribes (the one with the "serpent" as it's symbol) will be the "judge" of the world.

The one not listed in Revelation.

RICOEL

**Thummim** · 07-15-2002, 10:08 AM

A Family Affair.

Ricoel writes;I know that it is not our time yet,
but HOLY SPIRIT said for US to remember
"...a woman will surround a man..."

...The JPS writes, "A woman court's a man." The subject is The two houses of Israel. This verse gives us a clue to what the author means.

And there is hope in thine end, saith YHWH, that thy children shall come again to their own border. Jer. 31: 17

...YHWH's people are not in their land.

24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks. Jer. 31: 24

...Neither is Jerusalem occupied. So, who is the woman between YHWH's people, and the land of Israel? The JPS refers to "maiden Israel" in verse 21. So I conclude that, "maiden Israel" will court the land of Israel again. The biblical authors like to be poetic. This material is dated by the location and situation of YHWH's people.

....Michael

**Spying** · 07-15-2002, 11:11 AM

NOW!

Hi Israelthebride,

How do you know that it is not time yet? Over the years in Sabbath Assembly if a sermon was preached amongst the Tzaddikim concerning the building of the spiritual Temple or House invariably this song would be requested to be sung:

Ps 127:1-2
1 Except YAHWEH build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except YAHWEH keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.
2 It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep. (KJV)

The feeling was that we have worked and worked and worked with no result so I would say that the consensus was that the time had not yet arrived; although, we were not certain. I am now more optimistic. Why?

This is not easy to explain. The New Moon teaches me that right now we are a little over one hundred years early. How does one in his fifties consider adding over a hundred years to one's life span? That is a big hill even for those who can climb. So, we need a little help, don't we?

I can remember years ago when I began studying the Word of ELOHIM that some books seemed very mysterious to me especially Daniel and Revelation. I read where it took wisdom to understand the Revelation of Yahushua to John so I sat the book aside to seek wisdom first. Where did I go? I went right to the Torah for it is written concerning the Law:

Deut 4:6
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. (KJV)

To make a long story short, I have really never left the Law in order to go back to concentrate on Daniel or Revelation. I am still seeking wisdom and understanding. I find the Law fascinating.

Concerning a woman surrounding a man, this occurred two thousand years ago through the Cross. Messiah said:

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (KJV)

Right now, Messiah is encompassed by a mountain of flesh. Most of this flesh is dead flesh because the whole world died with Messiah. Now, what is it that Messiah can do with flesh? Can he not fashion or shape a helpmate for himself? He sure can, and Messiah began this creation with the building of first Apostolic Assembly or Temple. One woman has duplicate of many things, but she has one spirit and one voice. If we are one with the first assembly, then the time is now and not a hundred years from now.

Life or power or spirit is again being given to dead flesh. This is why many of us are coming alive to the doing of the Law and why many of us have sought to bury our dead flesh in baptism which is immersion in the doing of the Word. Seeing this things, I arise to do a spiritual work in order to arouse Messiah. Let others sing the old song.

Concerning the Cross, Messiah also said:

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. (KJV)

I could be sarcastic here, and ask you what it is about the word, now, that you do not understand? But I won't be so mean.

If judgment was established in the earth through the Cross, then through union with Messiah Dan has fulfilled that part of his mission, has he not? The snake in the path is interesting to me? Sounds a little bit like the Cross to me also. The Cross was a big ambush. Do you have any alternative insight on either the judgment or the snake. I suppose I need to go back and study the history of Dan. Being from Missouri, I fully expect to be shown many things!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 07-15-2002, 05:57 PM

But what does the author say?

...Context, context. Why do some people refuse the truth for lies? The hebrew word "sabab" implies some attachment as in bordering or surrounding something. There is a joining of two things. A woman and a man. But who is the woman and who is the man? We have in the context of this compassing or surrounding the man by the woman, the separation from the land of Israel, of both houses of Israel. We know of the marriage of the people of YHWH, to the land of Israel as fortold by Isaiah. This marriage was not forthcoming in the time of {jesus}, for the people already lived in their land. The people were separated from their land by their circumstance, in the time of these prophets. So I ask both of you, Ricoel and Spying, to feed the truth a little bit from your table of spiritual understanding. Do you ever put anything into its proper context? Read the complete chapter of Jeremiah 31, before you expound a single verse of text with your knowledge. Ask yourselves, "what is the situation of the author's people as he writes his text"? Just what does the authors opinion involve, anyway"? Spiritual interpretation should hold more of the truth in it, unless you are serving the wrong spirit.

....Michael

**Spying** · 07-15-2002, 09:55 PM

Context!

Hi Thummim,

Thank you for your admonition. Peter said

2 Pet 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of ELOHIM spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

And these men spoke not in or for their own context. They spoke to Messiah, and through his spirit, they speak to us:

1 Pet 1:10-12
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Messiah which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Messiah, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. (KJV)

I am sorry that you cannot see these things in their writings, but of course you are looking at the context which the authors were only using as a tool to convey information to us. No doubt, you will someday see this truth. Whether it be now or later is according to the will of Messiah, but in seeing, you will see, and in knowing, you will know. Until that time, I know full well that you will continue to complain about the context, and you know what, I do not blame you.

Sincerely, Spying

**israelthebride** · 07-15-2002, 11:58 PM

WE, YH'SHWH's BODY, need each other

TRUTHFULLY, I know I don't know everything. I need you and all of YH'SHWH 's BODY because, through HIS SPIRIT, WE will know the complete TRUTH.

Here's another thing I wonder about. If one of you know Daniel's timing help me.

The abomination was set when the temple was set over the TEMPLE ROCK of YH'SHWH. They are trying to make us worship their god. WE will claim that ROCK one day the way ISRAEL, HIS PEOPLE, did Jericho. WE will knock the abomination down by HIS SPIRIT.

It will start with the "mark", the only way YH'SHWH will get HIS PEOPLE out of this society and to count on HIM. When was the last time any of you prayed for food from YH'SHWH? WE are counting so much on ourselves. Without the "mark", one cannot but or sell anything.

WE will gather HIS PEOPLE; start to build HIS TEMPLE like NOAH built the ark. The times are like NOAH's time. WE will wander towards the land that is promised to US.

Here is the part I don't know. I don't know how WE will get to the land, but WE will.

After the wandering, WE will be accepted into the land only because WE call ourselves ISRAEL and WE have no where to go. WE will be as the ISRAEL of old. WE are the remnant. The day WE enter the land will be the day WE all remember "...the ONE that was pierced for US..."

Together (EPHRAIM, YA'HUDAH, and all the tribes with them) WE will have our time of mourning.

Then, after mourning, WE will be ONE. The TWO PEOPLEs (TWO WITNESSES) come out of the wilderness in sackcloth.

The first thing in order is the abomination.

This is the first time I have ever made this public. My wife and son are the only ones that has heard this.

HOLY SPIRITED BODY of YH'SHWH help me with this.

LOVE, RICOEL

**Spying** · 07-17-2002, 06:30 AM

The Removal!

Hi Israelthebride,

Thank you for your intimate sharing. I appreciate so much your attitude, action and desire, and I also have much to share in reply.

I agree with Thummim that the Abomination first begins with a removal. I am quoting here the LXX because it is for me a viable manner in which to approach the original words of Daniel:

Daniel 8:11-13
11. And this shall be until the chief captain shall have delivered the captivity: and by reason of him (the) sacrifice was disturbed, and he prospered; and the holy place shall be made desolate.
12. And a sin-offering was given for the sacrifice, and righteousness was cast down to the ground; and it practiced and prospered.
13. And I heard one saint speaking, and a saint said to a certain one speaking, How long shall the vision continue, even the removal of the sacrifice, and the bringing in of the sin of desolation; and how long shall the sanctuary and host be trampled? LXX Brenton

Daniel is clearly here speaking about the removal of the daily sacrifice, and a sin offering being offered in its place.

I want you to know that I am approaching all of these things from a spiritual perspective. Thus, when I read above, the sacrifice, I am not thinking about the physical Temple in Jerusalem or about the physical lambs that were offered in daily physical sacrifice two thousand years ago except in this manner: Those physical things were all shadows of what Daniel is speaking about above. There is a spiritual counterpart for everything physical as I know that you yourself do recognize. So, there does exist some manner of spiritual daily sacrifice that is pleasing to YAHWEH ELOHIM that we need to identify or locate before we can begin to look at the spiritual Abomination that stands in its place.

Do you have any ideas or insights into what or whom this spiritual daily sacrifice which is pleasing to YAHWEH could actually be?

I see that Thummim thought this topic sufficiently important to establish a separate thread for it. I will follow your lead here. If you want to keep it here, that is find with me. If you want to move it there, that is find with me.

Sincerely, Spying

**israelthebride** · 07-17-2002, 03:03 PM

The SACRIFICE

SPYING,

The SACRIFICE that pleases YH'SHWH is the SACRIFICE of ABEL.

The first man and woman went their own way (sinned) and the consequence was death according to the WORD of YH'SHWH.

YH'SHWH put "skin" on them to hide their shame. Why were they still living? YH'SHWH's LOVE and GRACE. But, what about HIS WORD? Did that become void?

No, I believe a lamb died.

Where did the "skin" come from? Something had to die to be able to use the "skin".

I believe the "skin" came from and 'INNOCENT" SACRIFICE for the "sin" that would cause death.

I believe YH'SHWH SACRIFICED an INNOCENT LAMB for the sake of HIS LOVED ONE.

When the time came to offer SACRIFICES to YH'SHWH, Cain gathered things that he had done for YH'SHWH. ABEL, on the other hand, offered what YH'SHWH had done for US.

HIS PEOPLE started misusing HIS SACRIFICE.

YH'SHWH came, HIMSELF, to pay for the death of the lamb that was SACRIFICED for our sin. Death had been introduced into CREATION and death needed to be undone.

(There is death the natural physical cycle of life to get to YH'SHWH
and then there is the death that means complete separation from YH'SHWH)

Now, I can offer the SACRIFICE of ABEL by taking MY "CROSS", the "CROSS" of YH'SHWH that HE has given to ME, and offering it back as MINE because I believe what HE has done for ME.

HIS "CROSS" (HIS DEATH) is my "CROSS" (my death).

HIS PEOPLE are misusing HIS SACRIFICE.

LOVE, RICOEL

**Thummim** · 07-18-2002, 10:18 AM

Cursed for spilling innocent blood?

Ricoel writes;

The SACRIFICE that pleases YH'SHWH is the SACRIFICE of ABEL.

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...Ricoel, may the mark of Cain, protect your life!

....Michael

**Spying** · 07-19-2002, 08:33 AM

The Living Sacrifice!

Hi Israelthebride,

Thank you for your reply! I would have you for the moment look elsewhere as you attempt to understand the Sacrifice and its removal.

Why does YAHWEH ELOHIM say that HE is not pleased with sacrifice in some places, and then in other places state that it is a pleasing aroma to HIM? I want to first approach sacrifice from the latter! What is it about sacrifice that is pleasing to YAHWEH? This is easy for me to look into, but it is hard for Thummim and other Jews.

I will first turn to the NT and read several scriptures:

Rom 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of ELOHIM, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto ELOHIM, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of ELOHIM. (KJV)

Paul then goes on in twelfth chapter to describe what a living sacrifice should be like. I presently fall way short of this sacrifice, but it is my goal to live up to it through the tender mercies of ELOHIM.

If such a sacrifice is the reasonable service of the servants, that is, you and me, we should be able to look at the MASTER and see this sacrifice in full operation and display, should we not? Absolutely!

Matt 3:17
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (KJV)

Matt 17:5
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (KJV)

YAHWEH ELOHIM was pleased with the life of HIS Son. Messiah Yahushua did not depend upon a declaration of YAHWEH ELOHIM centuries before for his own righteousness; rather, Messiah worked to make his Father happy with him:

John 8:29
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (KJV)

Always! That sounds like daily to me! So, what should we think would be the attitude of YAHWEH ELOHIM if this life that is pleasing to HIM is removed from the world? What must happen in order for this life to be removed from the world?

Sincerely, Spying

**Spying** · 07-20-2002, 08:03 AM

A Mountain Of Flesh!

Hi Israelthebride,

I give thanks to ELOHIM, our Father, and to Messiah Yahushua that you are now considering for the moment the possibility that the Cross of Messiah is the removal of the spiritual daily sacrifice that is pleasing to ELOHIM; nay, the Cross is not pleasing to ELOHIM; it is the removal of everything pleasing to ELOHIM.

In order for the removal to take place, truth was literally cast to the ground, and I am not just speaking of all the false testimony that was witnessed against Messiah or that is now constantly preached about Messiah; although, that does apply, but I am primarily speaking of the uniting of all things, the heavenly with the earthly, that Paul speaks about in this place:

Eph 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (KJV)

through the Cross of Messiah.

This uniting, the gathering of all flesh, the gathering of all men, transferred the very seat of all power and authority from heaven to the earth. The effect of the Cross is like lightening falling from heaven. Even those powers disguised as angels of light could not escape the pull of this falling. I can use physical analogy to best describe the Cross. It is like the black holes that we can now see in the universe. Truth is cast to the ground, and the heavenly is united with the ground, and the spiritual HOLY PLACE is firmly established in the earth through the uniting of good and evil in one flesh. This has all the ring of abomination to me.

If this be true (

it is true), and the Cross is the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15), and the spiritual HOLY PLACE is now this present age (Hebrews 9:9), then when Messiah is speaking in Matthew 24, Messiah is speaking about the perception of spiritual things and not about physical things. Thus, when Messiah instructed those in Judaea to flee, Messiah is speaking about a spiritual people in a spiritual Judaea. This is why it is woeful if the Sabbath should arrive or if the winter should be in place before you flee. Messiah is speaking about the spiritual Sabbath, the Millennium, and the spiritual winter. There is no harvest on the Sabbath or in the winter. It is too late to flee. From what must we flee? Brothers and Sisters, we must flee from sin. How do we accomplish that task, and to what or whom do we flee? We must look up to the hills from whence comes our help, and we must flee to the mountains?

Ps 72:3
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. (KJV)

Ps 133:1-3
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there YAHWEH commanded the blessing, even life for evermore. (KJV)

Thank you for allowing me to bend your ear this Sabbath morning, Israelthebride, and thank you for considering the thoughts of one who is seeking to be a part of the restored daily sacrifice though becoming one with men of good will as you yourself. The mountains rise up from the plain.

Sincerely, Spying

**Spying** · 07-22-2002, 08:58 AM

The Worm!

Hi Israelthebride,

Again, thank you for listening! I get excited with I am contemplating the issues which surround this Mountain of Flesh. Who is it that will consume this flesh? Thummim knows Isaiah. Thummim knows about the worm (Isaiah 41:14-20). I know that I need to write about the sin offerings and their requirements, but first I want to show you, if the spirit is willing, something about peace offerings. The Passover Lamb is a peace offering:

Lev 7:15-18
15 And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning.
16 But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:
17 But the remainder of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burnt with fire.
18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity. (KJV)

Notice the difference amongst the peace offerings. Those of thanksgiving must be eaten before the morning following their offering. The Passover Lamb is of this type. Indeed, the Passover Lamb must be consumed before the morning. If it is not all eaten, then the Lamb must be burned with fire. Burning with fire is a shadow or symbol for suffering and death. This burning with fire happened to the Apostolic Assembly. The vast majority of the first Temple did not survive the first century because of persecution and death. Which is better? Is it better to consume the flesh of the peace offerings through eating or is it better to burn them with fire. I suppose that this depends upon the worm.

If we look closely above, there exist peace offerings which can be eaten on the second day, but no peace offering could be eaten on the third day. A third day eating is an ABOMINATION. This is one of the reasons that I insisted to you above that the time is NOW. The worm had best not be found eating on the third day, that is, if you desire to avoid being a crispy critter.

We are discussing here eating the flesh of our spiritual peace offering which we did all bring through our sin. This peace offering, right now, is still a huge Mountain of Flesh. The days in Leviticus 7 are also spiritual days. How long are they? I see two possibilities: When I am considering the days of the moon or month, I am viewing a day as being a hundred years in length. When I am considering the days of the week, I am considering each day as being a thousand years in length. So, some eating may still be possible?

How do we know which concept of the day applies to us here and now? This is why we all have need for Messiah to establish the Great Sanhedrin in our time. We need to make some decisions as we flee.

I wonder what it means to eat the flesh of the peace offerings?

John 6:53-54
53 Then Yahushua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

Sincerely, Spying

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