Why The Passover Lamb?

[Spying]

Hi Everyone,

The New Testament Scriptures clearly state that Messiah Yahushua is the Passover Lamb. Paul states it thusly:

1 Cor 5:7
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us: (KJV)

After the Exodus, Israel celebrated the Passover only once in the wilderness, that is, discounting the celebration of the Passover of the second month and the Passover celebrated as Israel began to take possession of the promised land. So, the celebration of the Exodus 12 Passover was a one time event which was never again fully duplicated in the religious practice of Israel. The blood of the Passover was never again painted upon the door posts of the houses of the people of Israel.

What did the Israelites do with all the blood of the Passover Lambs? The Passover Lamb was offered as a peace offering. So, if you read about the law of peace offerings in Leviticus 3, you can gain some sense of what happened with all the blood of the lambs.

Now, all the animal sacrifices are shadows. What does the Passover Lamb picture? Why must this lamb die, and why must we kill it? How does it make peace, and why must we eat of it?

What is it that must die within us if we are to have peace with YAHWEH ELOHIM? What is it that must die within us before we can leave Egypt? Sin and the sinner within us must die. I submit that the death of the Passover Lamb is symbolic of the death of the sinner and of our sin within us. I submit that the death of the Lamb is symbolic of the death of our submission to sin and Satan. The slave to Egypt must die before we can leave Egypt and serve YAHWEH ELOHIM and have peace with HIM. With regard to Satan, the meek little lamb in submission to him must die in all of us. Through Messiah Yahushua, this is exactly what happens. When Messiah died, we died. This is why the New Covenant was instituted on the night that Messiah was betrayed. Through this covenant, Messiah made us one with himself. Messiah made us one with the Passover Lamb. Now, Satan must deal with a new creature, the first born of YAHWEH ELOHIM. Now, Satan must deal with you and me. We no longer believe "THE LIE". We have the power to resist evil if only we believe. We have the power to do what is good and right. ADONAI, I believe, help thou my unbelief!

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

When death "passes over".

Spying writes;

What does the Passover Lamb picture? Why must this lamb die, and why must we kill it? How does it make peace, and why must we eat of it?
What is it that must die within us if we are to have peace with YAHWEH ELOHIM? What is it that must die within us before we can leave Egypt? Sin and the sinner within us must die. I submit that the death of the Passover Lamb is symbolic of the death of the sinner and of our sin within us.


...YHWH "doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel". {Ex. 11: 7} The passover lamb is used to mark the difference between YHWH's people and all other people. It has nothing to do with sin. In the morning, the peoples sin is still with them. In the wilderness they practice it. The blood on the doorposts and over the windows, seals the openings of the houses that the seed of Jacob occupy. Because no stranger is included with YHWH's people except for those who are joined to them, no stranger is allowed to eat of the passover lamb.


And YHWH said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: Ex. 12: 43


...Note that no stranger is to eat of the passover lamb. This is the first mitzvah of the passover ordinance. The distinction between YHWH's people and all others, is reinforced.

..."What must die before leaving Egypt", is the firstborn of the Egyptians. No sin is expiated by eating the passover lamb.


Spying writes;

The blood of the Passover was never again painted upon the door posts of the houses of the people of Israel.


...The idea of death passing over the houses of the Israelites, is symbolized by Isaiah in his writings.

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Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

For, behold, YHWH cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Isa. 26: 20,

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...Passover is deliverance from ones enemies. It is YHWH delivering his people from those stronger than they. The words, "transgression" or "sin", are not used in conjunction with the passover. Passover is not for expiating sin or transgression. It is used to symbolize the deliverance from Egypt, by YHWH, of his people. Passover is eaten in haste, with the people fully prepared for their upcoming journey. Unleavened bread is prepared in haste. There is no time for the bread to rise. None of the passover feast is left for others to consume. Nothing remains of it. The "passover" is not an offering at all. It is all about remembering that a covenant of blood, has cemented YHWH's people, to himself, and that YHWH delivers his people from their enemies.


And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to YHWH throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. Ex. 12: 14


...This day is to be remembered. It sanctifies YHWH as the deliverer and only savior of his people. The man, {jesus}, wrought no deliverance of YHWH's people. They still had to face an unmerciful enemy.


....Michael

[israelthebride]

MICHAEL,
Your responses are correct with no fulfillment in them.

________________________

MICHAEL:

...YHWH "doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel". {Ex. 11: 7} The passover lamb is used to mark the difference between YHWH's people and all other people. It has nothing to do with sin. In the morning, the peoples sin is still with them. In the wilderness they practice it. The blood on the doorposts and over the windows, seals the openings of the houses that the seed of Jacob occupy. Because no stranger is included with YHWH's people except for those who are joined to them, no stranger is allowed to eat of the passover lamb.


And YHWH said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: Ex. 12: 43


...Note that no stranger is to eat of the passover lamb. This is the first mitzvah of the passover ordinance. The distinction between YHWH's people and all others, is reinforced.

..."What must die before leaving Egypt", is the firstborn of the Egyptians. No sin is expiated by eating the passover lamb.

______________________

RICOEL:

The "wilderness" (the world ways) must die in US. That is the "sin".

Sin is anything (thought, action, response, living) without YH'SHWH (HIS WORD/LAWS and WAYS). YH'SHWH is our LIFE.

ONE who submits to YH'SHWH's WAYS is not a stranger,
but a FRIEND.

_______________________

MICHAEL:

...The idea of death passing over the houses of the Israelites, is symbolized by Isaiah in his writings.

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Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

For, behold, YHWH cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Isa. 26: 20,

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...Passover is deliverance from ones enemies. It is YHWH delivering his people from those stronger than they. The words, "transgression" or "sin", are not used in conjunction with the passover. Passover is not for expiating sin or transgression. It is used to symbolize the deliverance from Egypt, by YHWH, of his people. Passover is eaten in haste, with the people fully prepared for their upcoming journey. Unleavened bread is prepared in haste. There is no time for the bread to rise. None of the passover feast is left for others to consume. Nothing remains of it. The "passover" is not an offering at all. It is all about remembering that a covenant of blood, has cemented YHWH's people, to himself, and that YHWH delivers his people from their enemies.


And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to YHWH throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. Ex. 12: 14


...This day is to be remembered. It sanctifies YHWH as the deliverer and only savior of his people. The man, {jesus}, wrought no deliverance of YHWH's people. They still had to face an unmerciful enemy.

_________________________

RICOEL:

Again, you are right. The PASSOVER LAMB's SACRIFICE is a deliverance from our enemy.

Who is your enemy?

My enemy is me.

If it were up to me, to live my life, I would destroy myself. I would probably live a life away from YH'SHWH.

Beacause of YH'SHWH's SACRIFICE, I AM FREE.
Anyone can kill me, destroy my way of life, take my family, and drive me insane, but where I AM, in my standing (relationship) with YH'SHWH, will determine who I AM and where I AM to exist.

YH'SHWH's SACRIFICE has delivered me from this enemy. I can live with HIS SPIRIT in me. I, now, know how to LIVE HIS WAY of LIFE by following (submitting) to HIS SPIRIT and HIS WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation).

I AM FREE.

__________________________

MICHAEL,
all you have to do is believe that HIS SPIRIT descended onto earth and into HIS PEOPLE on that fateful FEAST of WEEKS. Accept YHWH's SPIRIT into you, as DAVID and the PROPHETS did, and you will
BE.

LOVE, RICOEL

[Thummim]

To be fulfilled later?

Israelthebride writes;

Your responses are correct with no fulfillment in them.

...Fulfillment? Did YHWH say "to be fulfilled later"?

Ex. 12: 27?

That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of YHWH's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped, because they now realized that this passover existed so it could be "fulfilled" at a later date.

...Ricoel, you and Spying "make up" much of your faith. You cannot except anything at face value. You twist all texts to fit your worthless "for the JEWish people" shepherd, who abandons his flock without delivering them from the wolves. Whether you add to the texts, added lines of written words, or write those texts in your minds as you go along, you are rewarding your own deception. A passover lamb has nothing to do with "sin". It is not an "atonement". Numbers {Chapter 28} tells you that all the offerings that are made for unintentional sin are still required. The obvious escapes you. {--> the passover lamb is not an offering for sin}

...Ricoel, my enemy is the bold lies that are told to cover up the light of truth. Anyone can say, "this is what the text means", to fit their own lean too their own personal faith. {what they want the text to read} But he that reads the text, and believes what he is reading, has an advantage in understanding what was on the authors mind. "Fulfilling" text is subverting it.

....Michael

[Spying]

Redemption?

Hi Thummim,

I am wondering at this point if you yourself know the difference between a peace and a sin offering? No where did I make claim that the Passover Lamb is a sin offering. Why in your arguments do you argue as if I am saying that a peace offering expiates for sin? If I tell you that the Passover Lamb is a peace offering, why do you insist that I am somehow saying that the Passover Lamb is a sin offering?

What is it that makes peace with ELOHIM in you mind? And please don't dare tell me that it does not matter what we do! Right now, Thummim, you yourself are in spiritual Egypt. I know that I cannot prove that to you so I will ask you about the original physical Exodus from Egypt. YAHWEH ELOHIM commanded that Israel kill the Passover Lamb and eat it before they left Egypt, did HE not? If you were an Israelite, and if you choose to ignore this commandment, what happened to you and your household? The firstborn in your household died, did they not? Indeed, if you were a firstborn, you died, didn't you? When you died, what were you considered to be in the sight of ELOHIM? Were you considered to be an Israelite, a son of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, or were you considered to be an Egyptian? If you died, you were an Egyptian in the sight of ELOHIM. You were the firstborn of Egypt, were you not?

Now, YAHWEH ELOHIM redeemed the firstborn of Israel with the Passover Lambs. Redemption involves buying back to yourself something that you previously owned. What is it about each of us that YAHWEH ELOHIM has a desire to redeem? Is it not the spirit that he has placed within us?:

Gen 6:3
3 And YAHWEH said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (KJV)

So, it is through death that YAHWEH takes back his spirit, and through the death of the Passover Lamb, this same YAHWEH redeems HIS spirit from Pharaoh and Egypt. How does this redemption work?

When the death angel passed over all the houses of Egypt, what did this angel look to see upon the doors of the houses? Blood!! The life is in the blood. The blood is not the life; rather, the life is in the blood. So whenever the blood is shed, the life or spirit is released, and YAHWEH receives back HIS spirit. If, and I do know that this is a big if, but if YAHWEH does look upon the Lambs as also being the firstborn of Egypt, then when HE sees the blood of the Passover, YAHWEH can pass over that household because the firstborn of Egypt has already been slain in that particular household through the death of the Lamb. THIS DEATH IS NOT A SUBSTITUTIONAL DEATH. The Lamb was a vehicle whereby you could prove to YAHWEH that all the servants of Pharaoh and Egypt had already died in all the households that did kill and eat the Lamb. Your obedience to this commandment proves to YAHWEH that you the sinner have died, and thus you have been redeemed from sin through the death of the Lamb.

In a spiritual sense, the only manner that the sinner can be redeemed from sin is through obedience. If we kill our Lamb, sin is paid his price, which is the death of the sinner, and we are released from our slavery to sin. Sin was our prison. Thus, through the Lamb, we died to sin. Now, we are free to serve YAHWEH ELOHIM. Thank you, Yahushua for this peace offering. Thank you for releasing me from prison as Isaiah said that you would do!

Perhaps, Thummim, you would kind enough to explain to me how you Jews have been redeemed from sin, and how it is that you do now serve YAHWEH ELOHIM and not Pharaoh?

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

Obiedient sinners?

Spying writes;

When you died, what were you considered to be in the sight of ELOHIM? Were you considered to be an Israelite, a son of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, or were you considered to be an Egyptian? If you died, you were an Egyptian in the sight of ELOHIM. You were the firstborn of Egypt, were you not?

...Many of Jacobs seed had died in the four hundred and thirty years that they dwelled in Egypt. Who were these to you? Were they Egyptians because they had died in Egypt? And the bones of Joseph, were they also Egyptian. Did Joseph himself become an Egyptian? He ruled under pharoah. One who sins does not loose their claim to their ancestry, because they die or have sinned. YHWH makes his people righteous. He does not cast the sin of the righteous, into the sea. If so, it would make a very small splash. YHWH makes a distinction between his people, and the Egyptians. All are spotted with sin, when they leave Egypt. All are still the seed of Jacob.


Spying writes;

So, it is through death that YAHWEH takes back his spirit, and through the death of the Passover Lamb, this same YAHWEH redeems HIS spirit from Pharaoh and Egypt. How does this redemption work?


...Are you telling me that the passover lamb gave title to YHWH, to his own people? Without a passover lamb, all YHWH's people would have be Egyptian? I think that YHWH's people were his before the passover lamb came into existance.


And YHWH said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; Ex. 3: 7

--> this is before there is any passover.

...The seed of Jacob are YHWH's people by his own words. YHWH speaks of the people who have been afflicted, as being his own. This claim is before there is any passover lambs. So the question of "who are YHWH's people", has nothing to do with the passover lamb. Israel would still be YHWH's people, and not Egyptians, if they died in Egypt.


Spying writes;

The Lamb was a vehicle whereby you could prove to YAHWEH that all the servants of Pharaoh and Egypt had already died in all the households that did kill and eat the Lamb. Your obedience to this commandment proves to YAHWEH that you the sinner have died, and thus you have been redeemed from sin through the death of the Lamb.

--> "all" did not die, "all" were not firstborn.

...Are all the "firstborn", guilty of being firstborn? It was only the firstborn who died. The sinners who were not firstborn, lived. Even of the Egyptians, they lived. Because Israel is called the firstborn of YHWH, do you think that all Israel would have died, without the function of the passover lamb? Then the status of the Egyptians would have been better that that of YHWH's own people. I think that only the firstborn of Israel would have died, should Israel have ignored the call to "passover". But more "firstborn" would have been born, in due time.


Spying writes;

In a spiritual sense, the only manner that the sinner can be redeemed from sin is through obedience.

...Spying, sin belongs to the disobedient. There are no obedient sinners. It takes an act of YHWH to make the sinner into a righteous person.

...Michael

[Antotiyah]

hey guys just wanted to drop by and say hi
i miss you all and hope all of you are doing well and growing not only in knowledge and intellect but growing in wisdom and understanding of Yah in Yah.
Be blessed dear Allen and friends...i havent forgotten any of you, especially you thummim.
I'll be back another time and share what i have recieved.
until then, be encouraged and continue in the way-

Antonio-Antotiyah

[Thummim]

...Antonio, it is a wonderful blessing to hear from you. I have missed you. I look forward to exchanging knowledge with you. YHWH bless you in his name. Baruch hashem,

....Michael

[Spying]

Making A Name!

Hi Thummim,

Concerning the people of YAHWEH, it has been said:

Exod 6:6-8
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am YAHWEH, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a ELOHIM: and ye shall know that I am YAHWEH your ELOHIM, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am YAHWEH. (KJV)

Clearly, YAHWEH took the children of Israel to HIMSELF collectively as a people for HIS wife. This people is chosen by YAHWEH:

Deut 7:7-8
7 YAHWEH did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because YAHWEH loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath YAHWEH brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (KJV)

David says concerning this people:

2 Sam 7:22-24
22 Wherefore thou art great, O YAHWEH ELOHIM: for there is none like thee, neither is there any ELOHIM beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom ELOHIM went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their elohim?
24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, YAHWEH, art become their ELOHIM. (KJV)

Before this people could enter into a covenant relationship with YAHWEH, they were redeemed from Egypt and the nations and their elohim. This means that all the people were redeemed through the Passover Lambs and not just only the physical firstborn of the children of Israel. This is indicated through the Passover command itself:

Exod 12:3-6
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (KJV)

So, yes, I am telling you that YAHWEH did take title or ownership of all the children of Israel through the redemption provided by the Passover Lambs. The firstborn of either Egypt or Israel are a symbol for the strength of both. They stand for the whole of both: The sons of disobedience and the sons of obedience. Conversion is the death of disobedience and the birth of obedience. Technically, Ephraim is the firstborn of YAH. This is why today that you see Gentiles more concerned and more zealous with the keeping of the Torah than you see Jews concerned with keeping of the Torah! So, yes, without redemption, whether we be Jew or Gentile, we are Egyptian.

Thummim, I have been redeemed from Egypt through the work of Messiah Yahushua. I have been bought with a price. That price was the life of an innocent man. This man was killed through my sin. So, through my sin, I have obeyed the command to kill my lamb. This lamb stands for me. It is me! So, the Egyptian in me died with the lamb. Now, I have the duty and the honor to be a son of obedience and help make a name for YAHWEH. Of course, as Israelthebride has been relating to you, that name has already been made, has it not?

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

He is Israel's Eloheem before Pesach.

Spying writes;

So, yes, I am telling you that YAHWEH did take title or ownership of all the children of Israel through the redemption provided by the Passover Lambs.

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4 And, behold, the word of YHWH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. {of what?}

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in YHWH; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

7 And he said unto him, I am YHWH that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8 And he said, Adonai Elohenu, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {confirming this covenant}

18 In the same day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Gen. 15: 4 - 18


...Here YHWH, as El Shaddai makes a covenant with Abraham, and creates "heirs" for him to inherit the land of Israel after 400 years in bondage. But from the day that this covenant is entered into, the land is Abrahams inheritance, and his seed through Isaac, already has their Eloheem.


7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17: 7


...The passover lamb does not circumvent this covenant where YHWH creates a people to be a GD to them. YHWH doesn't await a passover lamb to make him a GD to Abrahams seed. The passover lamb is only an afirmation of this very covenant. The blood of circumcision is smeared over all openings that death could come through. The lives of the "firstborn" are spared. It is only the lives of the "firstborn" that are at threat. The rest of this seed of Abraham are not "saved" by the passover lambs blood.


....Michael

[Spying]

YAHWEH'S People Are Obedient!

Hi Thummim,

Good day to you and thank you for your reply! You are beginning to sound like my mentor, the Apostle Paul! Paul basically uses the same argument against the unbelieving Jews (Galatians 3) that you are attempting to use here against me. The argument works in Paul's hands. It does not fit your hand.

You said:

He is Israel's Eloheem before Pesach.

And then you appeal to the Covenant which YAHWEH ELOHIM made with Abram as if you yourself and the Jews are the Seed promised to Abram. How do you know that you and the Jews are the Seed of Abraham to whom the Land is promised? What is it that makes you today any more qualified to be the Seed than Ishmael and Esau of yesterday? Indeed, Genesis 17 actually condemns anyone who should lay claim to being the Seed of Abraham without humbly walking before their ELOHIM in perfection beginning with the circumcision of their flesh as did Abraham. This Israel did not accomplish in Egypt as commanded (Genesis 17:14), and this disobedience disqualifies them from being the Seed until they are enabled by ELOHIM to perform the terms of the Covenant as fully outlined in Genesis 17. This enabling took place at the first Passover through the ordinance of the Passover:

Exod 12:43-50
43 And YAHWEH said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as YAHWEH commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they. (KJV)

The ordinance of the Passover requires circumcision. Uncircumcision is called the reproach of Egypt at the circumcision of the children of Israel when they entered the promised land (Joshua 5). This reproach was first removed at the original Exodus Passover, and then this reproach was again removed at the Passover upon entering the Land:

Josh 5:2
2 At that time YAHWEH said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. (KJV)

Clearly, the Covenant of YAHWEH requires that the Seed be circumcised on the eight day. This, the children of Israel did not do in Egypt, let alone in the wilderness, so how can you even begin to make a case that the children of Israel are Abraham's Seed before their circumcision that comes with and through Passover? One can only qualify to be the Seed through obedience. There is no other way!

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

430 Years?

Hi Thummim,

You have said:

Many of Jacobs seed had died in the four hundred and thirty years that they dwelled in Egypt.

Clearly, the Seed of Abraham should dwell in a land of affliction for 400 years, that is, according to YAHWEH ELOHIM:

Gen 15:13
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; (KJV)

YAHWEH says 400. Will the real Seed of Abram please stand up? If the children of Israel did actually dwell in Egypt 430 years, then, obviously, they are not the Seed to which YAHWEH refers. It is possible here that YAHWEH is speaking about the length of time that spiritual Israel (Messiah and those who belong to him) would dwell in this world. I wonder, Thummim, how long the children of Israel did actually dwell in Egypt?

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

YHWH's people!

Spying writes;

I wonder, Thummim, how long the children of Israel did actually dwell in Egypt?

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...Is this a trick question?

40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.

41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of YHWH went out from the land of Egypt. Ex. 12: 40, 41

Spying writes;

Clearly, the Covenant of YAHWEH requires that the Seed be circumcised on the eight day. This, the children of Israel did not do in Egypt, let alone in the wilderness, so how can you even begin to make a case that the children of Israel are Abraham's Seed before their circumcision that comes with and through Passover?

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4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.

5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of YHWH: unto whom YHWH sware that he would not shew them the land, which YHWH sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way. Josh. 5: 4 - 7

...Joshua disagrees with you Spying. He says that the males who came from Egypt were circumcised. Only those who were born in the wilderness were not. If you argue "uncircumcision" as cutting off YHWH's people from himself, what about all of the females who are not circumcised? Aren't females also a part of YHWH's people?

....Michael

[Spying]

430 Years From The Promise!

Hi Thummim,

Yes, it can be a trick question, but only for those who answer before thoroughly examining the issue. The scripture does not say that the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt for four hundred and thirty years. The scripture does say that the "sojourning" of the children of Israel was 430 years from a specific point in time. The children of Israel also sojourned in the land of promise just like their fathers. Now, I know that you are very strong on the time in which the author is speaking, Thummim. What is that specific point in time to which the author here refers? What is "the selfsame day"? (It does appear, does it not, that the author includes the fathers in the sojourning of the children of Israel?)

And if you should answer this question, then you will know that the children of Israel did not dwell in Egypt 430 years!

Gal 3:17-18
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of ELOHIM in Messiah, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but ELOHIM gave it to Abraham by promise. (KJV)

How about that! You see, you were using Paul's argument. Your were correct; a later covenant should not in any manner void a previous promise or covenant made by ELOHIM. Now, Thummim, have at it, prove Paul wrong if you will! Prove to me that the children of Israel did dwell in Egypt for 430 years from the promise given to Abraham!

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

Agreeing with Paul?

...Does YHWH lie? So a people do dwell in Egypt for 430 years. Which people are they? Remember to connect them to Abraham. Was it the seed of Ishmael? Or was it the seed of Isaac? Which people left Egypt after 430 years of (guwr); Strong's 1481

Guwr, goor ; a prime root; prop. to turn aside from the road (for a lodging or any other purpose), ie. sojourn (as a guest)

This Abrahams seed did do. Afterward they came out of Egypt with many possessions.

36 And YHWH gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians. Ex. 12: 36

...YHWH did not promise Abraham that the seed of Isaac would dwell in Egypt as a sign of a covenant to be made. The covenant is already made. YHWH "prophecied" what would become of Isaac's seed "which did not exist at the time". But afterwards this seed of promise would come out with great posessions. They did spoil Egypt. Pesach is not a covenant that a people are entered into. It is a sign given to memory, that YHWH did what he promised Abraham and redeemed the lives of the "firstborn" of his people. Now the seed of Isaac will inherit the land of Israel forever. The promise is made to Abraham, and it is fulfilled. There has been no time that the land of Israel has been without a JEWish population since they took possession of the land. The JEWish population that remained after the Romans, wrote some very important books on the JEWish faith. Granted, the JEWish population was small at times, but it was there. All accounts of the moslem people tell of a JEWish population being present in Israel. There has always been a JEWish presence in the land of Israel since its initial occupation.

...Spying, you could do me a favor and tell me what is your point. Are you telling me that YHWH got it wrong in what he told Abraham? You know how I hate to agree with Paul on anything.

...Michael