Announcement

**Spying** · 05-28-2002, 11:55 AM

A Righteous People Should Live!

Hi Thummim,

Here's the deal:

Ezek 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (KJV)

YAHWEH does not declare the wicked righteous, and neither does YAHWEH declare the righteous wicked; rather, YAHWEH requires repentance from the wicked:

Ezek 18:21-23
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith ADONAI ELOHIM: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?(KJV)

YAHWEH very plainly here says that the only way to live and not die is through repentance and the performance of righteousness! If YAHWEH will not accept substitutional righteousness which is further stated here in this manner:

Ezek 14:20
20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith ADONAI ELOHIM, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. (KJV)

Why would you have me believe, that YAHWEH will now so easily deem wicked Jews and Christians righteous simply by decree? You make YAHWEH ELOHIM speak with forked tongue through your unrighteous teaching!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 05-28-2002, 12:44 PM

Forgiving the sins of the righteous, doesn't work!

Spying writes;

YAHWEH does not declare the wicked righteous, and neither does YAHWEH declare the righteous wicked; rather, YAHWEH requires repentance from the wicked:

...Are all men (and woman), guilty of sin? So the sinner is a sinner, until YHWH esteems him righteous. If he can't do this, then who can be righteous? But YHWH declares his people righteous, by his own righteousness. Either both are righteous together, or both are unrighteous together. Believe that the place that you deem righteous, can be swallowed up in YHWH's wrath, and that he can make the place of the unrighteous {and his people} righteous like him. For his righteousness endures forever. He will let no one take his people from him, because they bear his name. Where his name dwells, is where you will find YHWH. In his image is where his name resides.

Spying writes;
YAHWEH very plainly here says that the only way to live and not die is through repentance and the performance of righteousness!

...But all men {and women} die. Is death an obstacle to YHWH? So you are now speaking of life, and of flesh? If YHWH makes his people righteous, then they are righteous upon his own righteousness. Again and again, the only key to this prison is YHWH's to use. No matter how well you keep the law, you are not righteous until YHWH says that you are. Of his people, he says that they are a righteous people. Where does he proclaim gentiles to be righteous? Please give me some examples, so I can believe in your righteousness. But please use the tanakh. The law was given to Moses and his people. Show me where YHWH says that Gentiles are to keep his law. So, is the law given, only to make unrighteous, his own people?

Spying writes;

Why would you have me believe, that YAHWEH will now so easily deem wicked Jews and Christians righteous simply by decree? You make YAHWEH ELOHIM speak with forked tongue through your unrighteous teaching!

...Once more, Spying;

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, (**every tongue shall swear**). {what shall they swear, that all the seed of Israel is righteous?}

24 Surely, shall one say, (**in YHWH have I righteousness and strength**): even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be (**justified --> Tzadek --> "righteous"**), and shall glory. {glory in YHWH's name, and in his righteousness!}

--> (all the seed of Israel, righteous?) {how many is that?} Is it (all the seed) that passes through the "cut" in the flesh of Israel's males?

10 I will greatly rejoice in YHWH, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; (**so Adonai GOD will cause righteousness and praise**) to spring forth before all the nations. Isa. 61: 10, 11

...Praise Yah, for YHWH's righteous people.

....Michael

**Spying** · 05-30-2002, 06:02 AM

Only For Israel?

Hi Thummim,

Isa 45:22-25
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am ELOHIM, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in YAHWEH have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In YAHWEH shall all the seed of Israel be justified (made righteous), and shall glory. (KJV)

Righteousness is whatever YAHWEH ELOHIM commands. The ten words spoken from the mount are righteousness. They were spoken to Israel, but they were meant for everyman. The Law is light. Israel is to carry this light to the nations. This light should not be hid. It must be held high and lived. It must be practiced. Hypocrites are those who say but do not. So, Israel must not just tell the world to do righteousness, but Israel must also do righteousness in order to be a living light.

Everything really begins with confession through the spoken word. Would ELOHIM command anyone to do anything without somehow giving them the means to accomplish the task? Implicit in the command is the notion that righteousness will be accomplished; otherwise, ELOHIM is nothing more than a hypocrite who also says but does not do. What I am attempting to communicate is that ELOHIM is not just "a do as I say" type of parent.

Jews have made it quite clear to me over the years that the world is not to be given their covenant. So, they neither say nor do. So, they suffer. The light cannot be hid. ELOHIM has made it so. So, their suffering is also light for the world. This is true of Jews either individually or collectively. It is far better to be a light through saying and doing than to be a light for not saying and doing. There is suffering both ways, but only in the saying and doing is their peace. There is no inner peace for those who do say, but do not do. This I know because I have been one who has often said, but has not done.

It is written and spoken in righteousness:

Lev 1:2
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto YAHWEH, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. (KJV)

Under the covenant that YAHWEH ELOHIM made with Israel, am I, a Gentile, one who has a strange tongue, am I allowed to bow my knee to this commandment and bring my offering or is this righteousness only for Israel?

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 05-30-2002, 09:15 AM

Severed from other people.

Whose salvation do these verses of text imply?

Isa 45:22-25
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am ELOHIM, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in YAHWEH have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In YAHWEH shall all the seed of Israel be justified (made righteous), and shall glory. (KJV)

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15 Thou hast increased --> the nation, {of Israel} O YHWH, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far (**unto all the ends of the earth**). Isa. 26: 15

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8 But thou, {Israel}, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

9 Thou whom I have taken from the (**ends of the earth**), and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. Isa. 41: 9

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6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from (**the ends of the earth**);

7 Even (every one that is called by my name): for I have created him (**for my glory {his name}**), I have formed him; yea, I have made him. Isa. 43: 6, 7

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, (when YHWH shall bring again Zion).

9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for (YHWH hath comforted his people), he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

10 YHWH hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations {of Israel}; and (**all the ends of the earth** "where they are scattered"**) shall see the salvation of our God.

11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, (that bear the vessels of YHWH). Isa. 52: 8 - 11

...Israel is scattered to the four corners of the earth. Salvation is to come to Israel, (to the ends of the earth), where they are to be found.

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Spying writes;

Righteousness is whatever YAHWEH ELOHIM commands. The ten words spoken from the mount are righteousness. They were spoken to Israel, but they were meant for everyman.

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...Show me where it says that the goy'im are bound to YHWH's laws, in the tanakh. The law is a part of the covenant that YHWH makes with his own people. The law is not given to be a curse to YHWH's people. Every law needs a prison to be effective. YHWH did not choose a people out of the earth, to curse them, while letting all the other peoples of the world be blessed, because they were not chosen by YHWH. The blessing is in GD's name. [Y-H-W-H] is the blessing of the people of Israel. The name of GD does not perish. Neither do those who are attached to it. YHWH is their life. So he has a reward for all of his people. {life, and the land of Israel}

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Spying writes;

Israel is to carry this light to the nations.

...While the nations which are to see salvation being talked about, are the nations of Israel, the story of Jonah does speak of YHWH as saving Ninevah from his own wrath. YHWH is the GD of the world and does direct nations of his concern, in righteous directions. Ninevah, while not bound to YHWH's law, becomes a nation of violence (Jo. 3: 8), but repents. No attempt is made to bring Ninevah under the law of Moses, but that a law is in effect, is shown in Ninevah's repentance. So the nations of Israel can be a light of righteousness to the nations of the world.

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Spying writes;

Under the covenant that YAHWEH ELOHIM made with Israel, am I, a Gentile, one who has a strange tongue, am I allowed to bow my knee to this commandment and bring my offering or is this righteousness only for Israel?

...Your offering is likely to be refused. YHWH makes a distinction between his people, and the worlds peoples. Why would he take your offering? You refuse to bless his name, or except the righteousness that he grants his people. Neither do you acknowledge that he has given the land of Israel to his people.

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23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am YHWH your God, which (**have separated you from other people**).

25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

26 And (**ye shall be holy unto me**): for I YHWH am holy, (**and have severed you from other people**), that ye should be mine. Lev. 20: 23 - 26

...YHWH calls his people holy. Doesn't that also include "righteous"? If YHWH makes his people righteous, for his own sake, are they not righteous? He can be his peoples righteouusness, if he chooses their righteousness through his own vindication of them, can't he? Baruch Hashem.

....Michael

**Thummim** · 05-30-2002, 10:02 AM

All righteousness counts.

...Spying, what YHWH has revealed unto me, is that all the righteousness of all the world's peoples, aids the worlds healing, but that a little unrighteousness distroys a whole lot of the of the fruits righteousness. All righteousness counts.

....Michael

**Spying** · 05-31-2002, 09:01 AM

Every Knee, Every Tongue!

Hi Thummim,

Thank you for your responses. The issue before us is whether YAHWEH ELOHIM has made provision for the whole world in the Covenant. If I am allowed to bring an offering, then HE at least has made provision for me unless, of course, you desire to appeal to the Jews' racist argument that Gentiles are not men, but rather cattle! Whether or not my offering would be accepted is not up to you, but, rather, this is up to ELOHIM:

Lev 1:3-5
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before YAHWEH.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5 And he shall kill the bullock before YAHWEH: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. (KJV)

If YAHWEH should create the circumstance whereby the whole world voluntarily brings their burnt offering, has not the whole world bowed the knee to YAHWEH?

I am not arguing here that the Jews' Covenant is my covenant. I am merely arguing that YAHWEH has decreed that provision for me be found in HIS Covenant with the Jews. If this is the case, and it is, then how am I to learn of this provision, and not only that, but how am I to grow to believe in this provision unless the Jews should carry this light to me. YAHWEH has said "every knee, every tongue". Who, then, is to be left out?

So, if the Jew brings to me the knowledge that I can make atonement with YAHWEH, what is the first question that I am going to ask the Jew? I am going to ask him why it is that they should think that I have need to make atonement? I will bet you at this point that the Jew will begin quoting the ten words to me, or should I say seven? It is for certain that I will not bow the knee to the Jew until the Jew properly becomes a light to me.

This is in accordance with the words of YAHWEH through Isaiah:

Isa 42:5-6
5 Thus saith ELOHIM YAHWEH, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I YAHWEH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; (KJV)

Now, that is a decree that I will bow the knee to whenever YAHWEH should bring it about! Here is a decree that I like every bit as much

Isa 49:6-7
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith YAHWEH, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of YAHWEH that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. (KJV)

Of course, since all of these things occurred at the time of Cyrus, what is keeping the Jews from occupying and inheriting the Land and rebuilding the Temple right now so that I might voluntarily bring my offering? Of course, we all know that Arafat and the Palestinians have bent the knee to the salvation of the Jews, don't we?

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 05-31-2002, 11:38 AM

...Spying, It's good to get back to the priesthood again. This is the area that always needs the most work.

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1 And YHWH said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.

2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.

3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: (**only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar**) {like the stranger}, that neither they, nor ye also, die.

4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: (**and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you**).

5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel.

6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for YHWH, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the veil; and ye shall serve: (**I have given your priest's office unto you as a service of gift**): (**and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death**). Nu. 18: 1 - 7

...There is no atonement for anyone who is not attached to the people that the priesthood serves. It is always the covenant of YHWH, made with Abraham {through Isaac}, that the altar serves. It is the priesthood, that bears the iniquity of the people. (vs. 1) They do not bear the iniquity of the worlds people. No stranger may even approach the altar. The altar serves the house of Israel. Only those attached to this covenant, have need of the priesthood of Aaron. I doubt that your gifts would be excepted by a Levitical priest. They would no doubt, be seen as defiling of the altar of Israel. Spying, there is no provision for you to use the altar of Israel, unless you are attached to Israel.

....Michael

**Thummim** · 05-31-2002, 08:01 PM

The author is writing of his peoples liberation.

Spying writes;

Isa 42:5-6
5 Thus saith ELOHIM YAHWEH, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I YAHWEH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; (KJV)

...The next verse of text helps to explain what the author is talking about.

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7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. Isa. 42: 7

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Isa. 42: 18

8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Isa. 43: 8

...The author is talking about a single event. He is talking of how YHWH will use Cyrus to deliver his people from the prison of Babylon.

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...and who are the prisoners, and where is the prison? This is not out of context with the succeeding chapters. The next chapter of text tells us that Israel will be gathered from the places were they were scattered. (Isa. 43: 5, 6)

14 Thus saith YHWH, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. Isa. 43: 14

...This leads us to a forgiven people, whose transgressions have been pardoned, and who will now leave the place{s} of their captivity.

25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isa. 43: 25

...The later to come (jesus), is not the deliverer that the author is speaking of. He names his deliverer in Isa. 44: 28, and in Isa. 45: 1, as the messiah and shepherd, "Cyrus".

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Spying writes;

Of course, since all of these things occurred at the time of Cyrus, what is keeping the Jews from occupying and inheriting the Land and rebuilding the Temple right now so that I might voluntarily bring my offering? Of course, we all know that Arafat and the Palestinians have bent the knee to the salvation of the Jews, don't we?

...A question that Isaiah asks of his readers is, "to whom has the arm of YHWH been revealed"? Apart from the author who writes of Cyrus, delivering YHWH's people, {he knows what YHWH's plan, concerning his own people, is}, the larger question is "where does YHWH keep his strength"? I really believe that the darkness that covers the earth, is the total forgetfulness of the sacred name. The glory of YHWH's name cannot rise upon his people, until someone learns his name again. Then the light of understanding will again fill our world, and the tanakh will be read with understanding.

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How does one serve GD's name, if no one knows what it is?

10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH will I destroy them.

11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH I will destroy them.

12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of YHWH I will destroy them.

13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but YHWH helped me.

14 YHWH is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. Ps. 118: 10 - 14

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7 Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.

8 Our help is in the name of YHWH, who made heaven and earth. Ps. 124: 7, 8, ...Baruch Hashem,

....Michael

**Spying** · 06-02-2002, 07:48 AM

Time To Restore!

Hi Thummim,

YAHWEH teaches through Isaiah that the Messiah would open the blind eyes (the Gentiles). Isaiah also in the same context teaches, even almost boasts that the Servant of YAHWEH is blind:

Isa 42:18-23
18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as YAHWEH'S servant?
20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
21 YAHWEH is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? (KJV)

Did Cyrus cure the darkness of the Gentiles? No, he did not. If Cyrus is the Messiah, the Servant, then he is also blind (verse 19), and thus, by your teaching, we can conclude that the blind have given sight to the blind. Who did Cyrus serve and deliver? Cyrus delivered the Jews. So, then, in actuality are not the Jews really the ones who are blind? Unfortunately, for most of them, this is yet their circumstance unto this day. They, the perfect ones, that is, the Jews according to your teaching, see without seeing, and they hear without hearing. If this is not so, then why did the Jews become a prey to the Romans? Why did they become a prey to Nazi Germany? Did not this all happen for the sake of righteousness so that the Jews could be a light to the Gentiles, so that the blind could also serve and be a light until it is time to restore sight to them? Of course, for that we need another Messiah other than Cyrus, don't we? I hate to say this because of all the trouble that it is going to cause me, but the Jews do again have need of a Gentile Messiah!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 06-02-2002, 09:40 AM

And who is the light of the time?

Spying writes;

Did Cyrus cure the darkness of the Gentiles?

...Forget using the english word "gentiles" as the prefered translation of the hebrew word, "goy'im". It should be translated "nations". This is the revision used in most new english texts. The nations of Israel, that are in darkness {they have been locked in a prison} now can see the light of their Eloheem's salvation through Cyrus. He does open the two leaved gates of Babylon (Isa. 45: 1) for the people to pass through on the way back to Jerusalem. This herolds the "redemption" of YHWH, of (all) Israel.

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8 (**He is near that justifieth me**); {that makes me righteous} who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.

9 Behold, Adonai GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

10 Who is among you that feareth YHWH, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, (**that walketh in darkness, and hath no light**)? (**let him trust in the name of YHWH, and stay upon his God**). Isa. 50: 8 - 10

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...The blind servant is Israel, YHWH's people that have lost the hope of salvation. But YHWH is telling his plan of salvation to them, through the writings of Isaiah. The servant is a people, identified in vs. 22 of Isa. 42, as the prisoners who are to be released from their prison. It is to the tribe of Yahudah, that all Israel is gathered. Do you gather Yahudah from all directions {north, south, east and west}? Or do you gather Israel {the blind servant of YHWH}, from the ends of the earth? (All) of YHWH's people go free in his year of release.

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5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

7 Even (**every one that is called by my name**): for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

8 (**Bring forth --> "from their prison"**) the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Isa. 43: 5 - 8

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...everyone that is called by YHWH's name, is called from the four directions to which they have been scattered.

...When bad things happen to good people, it does not mean that YHWH favors the evil, and in some way justifies it. Yes, christianity has defiled the name of the JEWish people by making them the killers of their messiah. And yes, christians have made the "JEWS" pay for this. But the real weakness of the JEWish people, has been the separation from the name that protects them. When one calls out "JEW!", they are not thinking of GD's name. Ignorance infects christians. That's why YHWH needs a servant of "knowledge" to make "JEWs" into a righteous people, which they are. {perhaps the only righteous people!}

....Michael

**Spying** · 06-05-2002, 10:20 AM

A Single Event?

Hi Thummim,

The heat and humiditity of St. Louis weather has exhausted my strength the past several days, and I have had to start my physical work early in the morning in order to attempt to beat the heat. This is why I have been unable to reply to you sooner. You know my pattern. I do my best work in the mornings. I know, I must learn to also write at night when I am dog tired. The heat, however, has given me more opportunity to think about what you are saying.

Several posts above, you made these comments:

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. Isa. 42: 7

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Isa. 42: 18

8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Isa. 43: 8

...The author is talking about a single event. He is talking of how YHWH will use Cyrus to deliver his people from the prison of Babylon.

Now, I see that you are willing to admit that Isaiah is rather speaking about the gathering of the blind Israelites among the nations the whole world over:

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...The blind servant is Israel, YHWH's people that have lost the hope of salvation. But YHWH is telling his plan of salvation to them, through the writings of Isaiah. The servant is a people, identified in vs. 22 of Isa. 42, as the prisoners who are to be released from their prison. It is to the tribe of Yahudah, that all Israel is gathered. Do you gather Yahudah from all directions {north, south, east and west}? Or do you gather Israel {the blind servant of YHWH}, from the ends of the earth? (All) of YHWH's people go free in his year of release.

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5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

7 Even (**every one that is called by my name**): for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

8 (**Bring forth --> "from their prison"**) the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Isa. 43: 5 - 8

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I actually agree with you latest telling of Isaiah's story except for your apparent reversal concerning the blindness of YAHUDAH. Just as all Israel is to be gathered so also is all Israel blind. If all Israel (all the tribes) the world over are made righteous at the time of Cyrus, why must the tribes be gathered to the blind tribe YAHUDAH? Obviously, all Israel was not gathered at the time of Cyrus. So, there is more than a single event here, and it is not just yours truly that has difficulty with timeline of Isaiah.

All Israel is gathered not to YAHUDAH unless YAHUDAH refers to Messiah Yahushua as you are unwilling to admit, but rather to YAHWEH ELOHIM. We return to HIM and HIM only!

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 06-05-2002, 09:34 PM

Two exiles are addressed simultaneously.

...Spying, sorry to hear about the heatwave in St Louis's and how it has dogged you out. Here in Washington State, in the south hill area of Puyallup, we haven't recieved our share of global warming, as yet. I doubt that we ever will. We are hopefully waiting though. I would like to be able to grow mellons here.

Spying writes;
I actually agree with your latest telling of Isaiah's story except for your apparent reversal concerning the blindness of YAHUDAH.

...What reversal? The author sees the hand of YHWH moving, while those he represents have no clue that their salvation is in the works. All the seed of Israel (YaHudaH included) are blind servants of YHWH. {The phrase, "to whom is the arm of YHWH revealed", indicates the blindness of all Israel to their redemption.}

5 And now, saith YHWH (**that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him**), Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of YHWH, and my God shall be my strength. {the author may be putting words in the mouth of Cyrus.}

...Israel, the twelve tribes identified as so, by the author's using the term "Jacob", to indicate that the "whole house of Israel" will be gathered in this year of release. We are told that Israel is not yet gathered from the four corners of the earth, but YaHudaH's release is eminant.

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6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, {nations} that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. --> {to light the way home for the ungathered of Israel}

--> I reason Cyrus to be the servant being spoken of here, from the following verses of text.

25 I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon mortar, and as the potter treadeth clay.

26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words. {is Cyrus a righteous man?}

27 The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth (**good tidings**). Isa. 41: 25 - 27

28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: (**even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built**); and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Isa. 44: 28

--> (**even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built**) = good tidings

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Isa. 46: 11

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH of hosts. Isa. 45: 13

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7 Thus saith YHWH, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of YHWH that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he {YHWH} shall choose thee. Isa. 49: 5 - 7

1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and (**Israel, whom I have chosen,**): Isa. 44: 1 {addressed as one}

--> as in the chosen people!

20 (**Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans**), with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, {utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, (**YHWH hath redeemed his servant Jacob, {second exile telling the first exile of YHWH's salvation = we are all redeemed}**). Isa. 48: 20

--> Jacob is redeemed from Babylon. But Israel {the first exile} is not gathered yet. {though redeemed} The Yahudeem {second exile} are a light for the nations of Israel, {first exile} to find their way home.

...Hopefully these verses of text will help you understand the authors words concerning the two different exiles that he addresses simultaneously.The author really invisions a rebuilding of (all) the tribes. All are to come to either Jerusalem, or the surrounding "desolate" lands, to re-people them, with Jerusalem as its head. It seems obvious to me, that all the seed of Jacob is gathered at the same time. All are redeemed in Isa. 44: 21, 22.

8 But (**thou, Israel, art my servant**), (**Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend**). {both exiles addressed together, both peoples as one}

9 Thou (**whom I have taken from the ends of the earth**), and called thee from the chief men thereof, (**and said unto thee, Thou art my servant --> Isa. 44: 21?**); I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. Isa. 41: 8, 9 {Doesn't the author address both exiles at the same time?}

--> Aren't the peoples of both exiles, the chosen people?

11 Behold, all (**they that were incensed against thee {see Isa. 49: 7 above}**) shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Isa. 41: 11 {incensed as those who make war with YHWH's people.}

--> I believe that the author changes his "tense" from before, to after YHWH works his deliverance from Babylon. ie. ( I have redeemed you, in contrast to the coming redemption of YHWH's people. {I shall deliver you})

13 For I YHWH thy God (**will hold thy right hand,**), saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.

14 (**Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel**); I will help thee, saith YHWH, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isa. 41: 13, 14

--> The author is addressing "both" exiles simultaniously again.

...Hopefully something here will help you understand the later Isaiah's text. As you can see, it is difficult, because the author is addressing two exiles at once, while, at the same time, we are reading it in a different language than it was written in. A man who writes himself to have lived during the later time of the second exile, would have both exiles equally upon his mind, and need salvation for all the seed of Israel. And if that author actually lived after the time he represents himself to have lived in, then he might change back and fourth, from before, to after the exile in Babylon, addressing his hope of the gathering of the {first exile} from the unknown nations to which they were scattered. {one redemption would already be in his mind, though incomplete.} The author didn't know in which nations that Israel was held captive. The Assyrians were also eliminated as a nation, and where they resettled the followers of Pekah, isn't told.

....Michael

**Spying** · 06-07-2002, 07:14 AM

Dyslexia!

Hi Thummim,

Good morning! Pullallup, I like that.

My fourth daughter, who is very gifted in art, came home yesterday from a college class fairly well convinced that she has dyslexia. She has always had difficulties in perception, but she has never before been diagnosed with that gift. This would account for her abilities in the creative arts. She doesn't see objects in the same manner that others do.

After listening to her, I am fairly well convinced that I have dyslexia of the scriptures. When I look at the scriptures, all that I can see is Messiah Yahushua. Where others see Jerusalem, and Jew, and nations (gentiles), and Israel, and Cyrus, and Jacob, and north, and south, and east, and west, and up, and down, I see Messiah. I am sorry, but I can't help it. I see Messiah!

So, where you see "all Israel", I see Messiah. Now, how in all the world does "all Israel" receive its sight? What do you see when you picture all Israel being righteous? If the seed of Israel has been scattered throughout the nations, then the whole world is secure because ELOHIM will not destroy the world for the sake of the righteous, correct?

Thummim, "all Israel" includes all the seed who have lived and died since the time of Isaiah, does it not? How does Cyrus serve them? How does Cyrus serve you and me today? How does Cyrus serve the generations to come? Who is the light of the whole world? Who gathers both the living and the dead, and makes them one? Who is it that has such authority? Who is it that is the servant of YAHWEH ELOHIM?

Let's say for the sake of argument that the YAHUDIM are the light of the world. How many of the seed of Israel do they gather through their light? How many of us can they gather through their light? They can only give light to others while they live. After they die, they pass the torch to next generation of YAHUDIM who must now serve as the guide to the blind. So, even the generations of YAHUDIM are not gathered all at once! Who is it that will bring all of us together again? Whose light is sufficient for that task?

This is why I see Messiah Yahushua in everything.

Sincerely, Spying

**Thummim** · 06-07-2002, 10:10 AM

Isaiah is not a christian.

Spying writes;

Thummim, "all Israel" includes all the seed who have lived and died since the time of Isaiah, does it not? How does Cyrus serve them? How does Cyrus serve you and me today? How does Cyrus serve the generations to come? Who is the light of the whole world? Who gathers both the living and the dead, and makes them one? Who is it that has such authority? Who is it that is the servant of YAHWEH ELOHIM?

...Saving lives and saving souls, are very different faiths. YHWH is the Eloheem of the living. Nowhere is a soul saved in the tanakh. There is no need for saving souls. The soul is YHWH's domain, and not mans. But YHWH saves the lives of his people. This is what Cyrus is all about. He is the tool that YHWH will use to rebuild the hope of a people, who are facing the loss of their name. When you have no country, how do you stay a people? In the authors time (that which he writes of), his people are on the extinction list. This is gross darkness. How will YHWH renew this people? Where hopelessness reigned, a new light is seen. YHWH will be the hope of his people's existance. In this year of release, all Israel is now past their Eloheems rage at them. They are (all) righteous by the law of return, and the author writes that YHWH will save this people with an everlasting salvation. He clears the record with the decree of YHWH, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee". This is the authors Israel. He believes in one people, under YHWH, with YaHudaH as head, the way it was meant to be. Jerusalem and all its residents will be a light to illuminate the way home, for those who are scattered throughout the world. The author only surmises these people to exist. He doesn't know where they reside, but trusts that YHWH has kept them as a people. Looking through the authors eyes at his world, helps to understand his writing. He is not trying to save the dead. That is christianity. Ones soul is already in the hands of YHWH, if dead. The author wouldn't trade the salvation of the living (body), for the salvation of the (soul--> "spirit"). Isaiah wants his people to escape extinction. He want them back in their own land.

...The link between GD and people, require the people of YHWH to be righteous. Being holy, and being righteous, is the same thing. Even unintentional sin must be dealt with. And so Aaron is given a priesthood. This people are a part of YHWH, his people called out of this world, to be his own people. This Eloheem has a family of his own. He has a people, pecular unto himself. YHWH isn't out to save the world, he is out to save his own people, from it. Who serves YHWH, but his own people, and those he calls out of it to do his bidding? Cyrus is his messiah and shepherd. He will set YHWH's people free and through him, Jerusalem and its surrounding lands which were left desolate, will be repopulated. YHWH has not forgotten his people.

Spying writes;

Let's say for the sake of argument that the YAHUDIM are the light of the world. How many of the seed of Israel do they gather through their light? How many of us can they gather through their light? They can only give light to others while they live. After they die, they pass the torch to next generation of YAHUDIM who must now serve as the guide to the blind. So, even the generations of YAHUDIM are not gathered all at once! Who is it that will bring all of us together again? Whose light is sufficient for that task?

...The darkness in the world of Isaiah, is the death that a tumult of nations brings into the world of YHWH's people. It is YHWH's rage at the nations of the world, that casts a shadow over it. All hope must come from YHWH. He is the light of hope. When the darkness is moved, the lion lays down with the lamb. His people have peace, their warfare having ended. Isaiah says, in the fifty-fifth verse of his fifty-third chapter, "the chastisement of our {Peace} was upon him". Peace is the end to the darkness that fills Isaiah's world. The distinction between YHWH's people and the people of the world, is always kept by Isaiah. As to the ingathering of YHWH's people, where does Isaiah appoint its end? As long as the name of YaHudaH grows, the ingathering is maintained. One people gather to the name of YHWH (YaHudaH), while another gather to the name of Jesus (Yeshua). I can see why the christians have keep pointing their finger at the JEWish people. They {the christians} are not the chosen people. When the seats of honor are awarded, someone will have to ask the christians, to get up and move. If you want to live in YHWH's house, you must move into his name. Of the multitude of christians, who are the few, that find the door? To love the name of Yahudah, is to knock upon the door. Remember that the day of YHWH comes, to bring justice to those who have mistreated YHWH's people.

....Michael

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