Announcement

**OldShepherd** · 03-29-2002, 04:42 AM

Pierced-The Rest of the Story!

Thummim,

"The translation here is in fault. The picture here, is of lions pulling the man apart in four directions. A combination of two words is being used by the author. The words are Ka'ah, Strongs 3512 and ariy, Strongs 738. The author writes K-ariy (lions break), the act of which he refers to elsewhere in the 22nd chapter of Psalms. Ariy means "lion". Ka'ah means "broken", or mauled. The author shows lions, dogs and bulls, like wild animals, are pulling the man apart, as though he were a piece of meat. He shows that he is really talking about men when he refers to these animals as casting lots for his clothes. Using {pierced} as the translated word in english, does not fit the context of what is written. The tanakh says "like lions [theymaul] my hands and feet". This translation fits the context of what is written in the rest of the psalm."

Many modern Jews would agree with this post. This view has been taught since the 11th and 12th century, when the famous Rabbinic scholars Rashi and Rambam reinterpreted many previously Messianic prophecies, in the Tenakh, so that they now refer to the Nation of Israel, David, or other kings and prophets.

Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac (or: Shlomo Yitzhaki) is known by the acronym: RaSh"I. 1040-1105. Troyes, France.

Rambam Mai-mon-I-des(born Moses ben Maimon) 1135-1204; Sp. rabbi, physician, & philosopher, in Egypt

However, for 1300 years or more, prior to the middle ages, these passages were understood as the Messiah being pierced. Talmudic references, below.

Does “Ka'ah means "broken", or mauled.”, as stated above? Note, Strong’s definition, “disheartened, cowed, sad”. It does not mean broken or “mauled” in a physical sense. This is truly a desperate grasping at straws for translators to try to twist the meaning of the word this way.

Strong’s 03512 ka'ah kaw-aw'

a primitive root; TWOT - 941; v

AV - sad 1, broken 1, grieved 1; 3

1) to be sad, be disheartened, be cowed

1a) (Niphal) to be disheartened, be cowed

1b) (Hiphil) to make sad

This word occurs three times in the Tenakh, Ps 109:16, Eze 13:22, and Dan 11:30. The one time it is translated “broken” it refers to a broken heart. It cannot be translated as being bitten, mauled, or torn by lions!

Ps 109:16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken <03512> in heart.

Eze 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad <03512>, . . .

Da 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved <03512>, . . .

Below, quotes from the Septuagint (LXX) and John Gill’s, “Commentary on the Whole Bible”, and Albert Edersheim’s, “The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah”, both which cite the Talmud.

Note, the LXX, translated by Jewish scholars, about 200 years BC, translates Ps 22:16, “pierced my hands and feet.” This clearly proves that the translation “pierced” was not some dastardly Christian plot.

(LXXE) Ps 22:16 (21:16) For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.

(Gill) Zec 12:10 and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced;

We Christians can have no doubt upon us that this passage belongs to Christ, when it is observed, upon one of the soldiers piercing the side of Jesus with a spear, it is said, "these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled; they shall look on him whom they have pierced"; . . .yea, the Jews themselves, some of them, acknowledge it is to be understood of the Messiah.

In the Talmud {f}, mention being made of the mourning after spoken of, it is asked, what this mourning was made for? and it is replied, R. Dusa and the Rabbins are divided about it: one says, for Messiah ben Joseph, who shall be slain; and another says, for the evil imagination, that shall be slain; it must be granted to him that says, for Messiah the son of Joseph that shall be slain; as it is written, "and they shall look upon whom they have pierced, and mourn", &c. for, for the other, why should they mourn? hence Jarchi and Kimchi on the place say, our Rabbins interpret this of Messiah the son of Joseph, who shall be slain; and the note of Aben Ezra is, all the nations shall look unto me, to see what I will do to those who have pierced Messiah the son of Joseph.
{f} T. Bab. Succah, fol. 52. 1.

Grotius observes, that Hadarsan on #Ge 28:10-16 understands it of Messiah the son of David. The Jews observing some prophecies speaking of the Messiah in a state of humiliation, and others of him in an exalted state, have coined this notion of two Messiahs, which are easily reconciled without it. The Messiah here prophesied of appears to be both God and man; a divine Person called Jehovah, who is all along speaking in the context, and in the text itself; for none else could pour out the spirit of grace and supplication; and yet he must be man, to be pierced; and the same is spoken of, that would do the one, and suffer the other; and therefore must be the theanthropon, or God-man in one person.

As to what a Jewish writer {g} objects, that this was spoken of one that was pierced in war, as appears from the context; and that if the same person that is pierced is to be looked to, then it would have been said, "and mourn for me, and be in bitterness for me"; it may be replied, that this prophecy does not speak of the piercing this person at the time when the above wars shall be; but of the Jews mourning for him at the time of their conversion, who had been pierced by them, that is, by their ancestors, hundreds of years ago; which now they will with contrition remember, they having assented to it, and commended it as a right action; and as for the change from the first person to the third, this is not at all unusual in Scripture:
{g} R. Isaac Chizzuk Emunah, par. 1. c. 36. p. 309.

and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for [his] only [son]; or, "for this" {h}; that is, piercing him; for sin committed against him; because of their rejection of him, their hardness of heart, and unbelief with respect to him; and on account of their many sins, which were the occasion of his being pierced; which mourning will arise from, and be increased by, a spiritual sight of him, a sense of his love to them, and a view of benefits by him. Evangelical repentance springs from faith, and is accompanied with it; and this godly sorrow is like that which is expressed for an only son; see #Am 8:10 Lu 7:12 and indeed Christ is the only begotten of the Father, as well as the firstborn among many brethren, as follows:

and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn; sin is a bitter thing, and makes work for bitter repentance.
{h} wyle "super hoc", Junius & Tremellius; "propter hoc", Gussetius; "super illo", Piscator, Cocceius.

“(Edersheim, Life and Times, app. IX.)Zech. Xii. 10 is applied to the Messiah the Son of Joseph in the Talmud (Sukk. 52 a), and so is verse 12, there being, however, a difference of opinion whether the mourning is caused by the death of the Messiah the Son of Joseph, or else on account of the evil concupiscence (Yetser haRa).”

- Christian Classics Ethereal Library

http://www.ccel.org/e/edersheim/lifetimes/htm/VI.ix.htm#VI.ix

(To Be Continued)

**OldShepherd** · 03-29-2002, 04:49 AM

Pierced-The Rest of the Story Pt II!

(Gill) Ps 22:16 they pierced my hands and my feet;

In this clause there is a various reading; in some copies in the margin it is, "as a lion my hands and my feet", but in the text, "they have dug" or "pierced my hands and my feet"; both are joined together in the Targum, "biting as a lion my hands and my feet"; as it is by other interpreters {c}; and Schultens {d} retains the latter, rendering the preceding clause in connection with it thus,

“the assembly of the wicked have broken me to pieces, as a lion, my hands and my feet.”

In the Targum, in the king of Spain’s Bible, the phrase, "as a lion", is left out. The modern Jews are for retaining the marginal reading, though without any good sense, and are therefore sometimes charged with a wilful and malicious corruption of the text; but without sufficient proof, since the different reading in some copies might be originally occasioned by the similarity of the letters y [yod] and w [waw]; and therefore finding it in their copies, or margin, sometimes wrak, and sometimes yrak, have chose that which best suits their purpose, and is not to be wondered at; however, their "masoretic" notes, continued by them, sufficiently clear them from such an imputation, and direct to the true reading of the words; in the small Masorah on the text it is observed that the word is twice used as here pointed, but in two different senses; this is one of the places; the other is #Isa 38:13; where the sense requires it should be read "as a lion": wherefore, according to the authors of that note, it must have a different sense here, and not to be understood of a lion; the larger Masorah, in #Nu 24:9; observes the word is to be found in two places, in that place and in #Ps 22:16; and adds to that, it is written wrak, "they pierced"; and Ben Chayim confirms {e} this reading, and says he found it so written in, some correct copies, and in the margin yrak; and so it is written in several manuscripts; and which is confirmed by the Arabic, Syriac, Ethiopic, Greek, and Vulgate Latin versions; in which it is rendered, "they dug my hands and my feet"; and so took it to be a verb and not a noun: so Apollinarius in his metaphrase; and which is also confirmed by the points; though taking yrak for a participle, as the Targum, that reading may be admitted, as it is by some learned men {f}, who render it "digging" or "piercing", and so has the same sense, deriving the word either from rak or rwk, which signify to dig, pierce, or make hollow; and there are many instances of plural words which end in y [yod], the m [mem] omitted, being cut off by an apocope; see #2Sa 23:8 #2Ki 11:4,19 La 3:14 Eze 32:30; and either way the words are expressive of the same thing, and manifestly point to the sufferings of Christ, and that kind of death he should die, the death of the cross, and the nailing of his hands and feet to it, whereby they were pierced. This passage is sometimes applied by the Jews {g} themselves to their Messiah.
{c} Amamae Antibarb. Bibl. p. 743.
{d} Origin. Heb. l. 1. c. 12. s. 8. Vid. Jacob. Alting. Dissert. Philolog. 5. s. 27-34.
{e} In Maarcath a, fol. 10. 2. ad Calc. Buxtorf. Bibl.
{f} Pocock. Miscell. c. 4. p. 59, 60. Pfeiffer. Exercitat. 8. s. 37. Carpzov. Critic. Sacr. p. 838, 839. Alting. ut supra. (Dissert. Philolog. 5.) s. 48, 49.
{g} Pesikta in Yalkut, par. 2. fol. 56. 4.

(Edersheim, app. IX)”On Ps. xxii. 7 (8 in the Hebrew) a remarkable comment appears in Yalkut on Is. lx., applying this passage to the Messiah (the second, or son of Ephraim), and using almost the same words in which the Evangelists describe the mocking behaviour of the Jews at the Cross.
“Ps. xxii. 15 (16 in the Hebrew). There is a similarly remarkable application to the Messiah of this verse in Yalkut.”

(Gill) Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

The Jewish doctors {n} themselves own that these words respect the Messiah, though they pretend that Messiah ben Joseph is meant, who shall be slain in the wars of Gog and Magog; for since their disappointment, and the blindness and hardness of heart which have followed it, they feign two Messiahs as expected by them; one Messiah ben David, who they suppose will be prosperous and victorious; and the other Messiah ben Joseph, who will suffer much, and at last be killed.
{n} T. Bab. Succa, fol. 52. 1. & ex codem R. Sol. Jarchi, R. David Kimchi, R. Aben Ezra, & R. Sol. ben Melech. in Zech. xii. 10.

Note Zech 12:3 proves that this passage is not speaking of some past event which affected Israel and one of her kings. Unless there is a time in history in which all the people of the earth, not just her neighbors, were gathered against Israel.

Zech 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

The below from a website which lists and compares all the Tenakh scriptures quoted in the N.T., to the LXX, and Masoretic Text (MT). While the N.T. writers usually quoted the LXX, in the case of Zech 12:10, the N.T. is closer to the M.T.

(NT) John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

(LXX) Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved friend, and they shall grieve intensely, as for a first-born son.

(MT) Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

http://arts-sciences.cua.edu/ecs/jdk/LXX/NTChart.htm

(Gill) Zech 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

in the Talmud {o} it is said, this is the mourning of the Messiah, that is, on his account:
{o} T. Hieros. Succah, fol. 55. 2.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Kimchi and Ben Melech, by "the house of David", understand the King Messiah {e}, who was to be of the seed of David;
{e} R. Isaac Chizzuk Emunah, par. 1. c. 36. p. 307.

Zech 12:8 is another verse, in this passage, which provides evidence that the one who was pierced was not an ancient king or prophet. When during the times of the kings and prophets did all the land mourn every family apart, men and women apart, for one who they, themselves, had pierced?

In view of the documented evidence cited, the allegations, above, that Psalms 22 and Zech 12 have been mistranslated by Christians, is patently false. Easily verifiable ancient Hebrew sources, prove the words used in the original mean that the Messiah was “pierced. Thus saith D’bar Ha’ Elohim!

One final interesting fact about the crucifixion. When Yeshua spoke the words of Psalm 22, from the cross ,“Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani?”, all who knew him, and heard Him, would have known the rest of that sentence, “why are you so far from Yeshua? The Hebrew word Yeshua translated “helping me”, in English Bibles, is pronounced exactly the same as Jesus’ name in Hebrew, Yeshua.

**Thummim** · 03-29-2002, 09:37 AM

Ancient hebrew sources can be right, or wrong.

Old shepherd writes;

In view of the documented evidence cited, the allegations, above, that Psalms 22 and Zech 12 have been mistranslated by Christians, is patently false. Easily verifiable ancient Hebrew sources, prove the words used in the original mean that the Messiah was “pierced. Thus saith D’bar Ha’ Elohim!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

How many hebrew translators are there? Your one is all approach misleads people.

...Ps. 22 needs to be read in context. The hebrew word "ariy" {lions} is used elsewhere in this chapter, --> {KJV, vs's 13, 21} along with the hebrew words "par" --> bulls, {vs 12} and "keleb" --> dogs {KJV, vs 16}

Strongs 3611 keh-leb from an unused root meaning to yelp, or else to attack; a dog

The picture is of wild animals pulling a man apart. Wild animals do not pierce. They maul, or tear. Your (son of GD) is no authority. He's an author, who wrote many years after the fact.

Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] {the choice of this JPS translater} my hands and feet. Ps. 22:17 JPS

-The above is at least as good of a translation, as any.

As to Zech. 12: 10, the author of this verse of text gives Josiah as an example in the very next verse {vs 11} to define what he is talking about. This account is found in II Chr. 35: 24, 25. This example, is not of a soul saver, but of a warrior, who is killed in battle. (Josiah)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

In that day I will all but annihilate all the nations that came up against Jerusalem. But In will fill the House of David and the inhabitance of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a firstborn. In that day, the wailing in Jerusalem shall be as great as the wailing at Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddon. JPS {Zech. 12: 9 - 11}

...I really don't agree with this translation, in that it disrespects the authors own comparison sited in verse 11. It is interesting that the translators here, have the Jerusalemites mourning for their enemies.

Your dissatisfaction with this translation, you needn't voice to me. But this translation is that of those who speak hebrew as a first language. It's a very interesting translation. My comments are valid. I infer the translators of the KJV, to be christian. {a logical assumption} Perhaps some of them might not have been.

....Michael

**Thummim** · 03-29-2002, 11:40 AM

Long odds.

Old Shephard writes,

(Gill) Ps 22:16 they pierced my hands and my feet;

In this clause there is a various reading; in some copies in the margin it is, "as a lion my hands and my feet", but in the text, "they have dug" or "pierced my hands and my feet"; both are joined together in the Targum, "biting as a lion my hands and my feet"; as it is by other interpreters {c}; and Schultens {d} retains the latter, rendering the preceding clause in connection with it thus,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

...My problem with this, is that the word ariy (lions) is used many times within the tanakh, as refering to "lions". There is not a single case where the word is used in this fashion (ca' ru) within the text of the tanakh, (excepting our debated use), that I can find. With the word ariy used twice elsewhere in chapter 22 of Psalms, it seems likely that this same author wouldn't have chosen a rarely used word (which is unused elseware in the tanakh) to tranfer his thoughts, given his use of the word ariy in this same text. Most cases that translate as, "pierced", will list the more likely translation in a footnote. I except your argument, but think it unlikely.

....Michael

**OldShepherd** · 04-04-2002, 05:52 AM

Re: Long odds.

Originally posted by Thummim ...My problem with this, is that the word ariy (lions) is used many times within the tanakh, as refering to "lions". There is not a single case where the word is used in this fashion (ca' ru) within the text of the tanakh, (excepting our debated use), that I can find. With the word ariy used twice elsewhere in chapter 22 of Psalms, it seems likely that this same author wouldn't have chosen a rarely used word (which is unused elseware in the tanakh) to tranfer his thoughts, given his use of the word ariy in this same text. Most cases that translate as, "pierced", will list the more likely translation in a footnote. I except your argument, but think it unlikely.

....Michael

Unless the word in question is karah, to dig or pierce as shown in Strong's and as translated by the Jewish sources I quoted. And as I have proven it was translated by Jewish scholars 200 years +/- BC as pierced in the LXX and was never translated "lions" until the time of Rashi about 1100 AD.

03738 hrk karah kaw-raw’
a primitive root; TWOT - 1033,1034,1035; v
AV - dig 12, make 2, pierce 1, open 1; 16
1) to dig, excavate, dig through
1a) (Qal) to dig
1b) (Niphal) to be dug
2) (Qal) to give a banquet or feast
3) (Qal) to get by trade, trade, buy

Second problem with this comment. The words highlighted above. Your interpretation is based on your feelings not scholarship. "I think" "it seems".

**Thummim** · 04-04-2002, 08:32 AM

Animals without hands, do not use nails.

Old Shepherd,
...Strongs lists Ariy, {lions} 738 when one looks up the word pierced, and posts no numerical listing as to the word that the letter {Kaph}, preceding the hebrew word {ariy} represents. Somehow I do not see lions handling nails. These animals drag the body by the hands and feet, in four directions, as a pack of wild animals would. It seems obvious to me, what the author is talking about.

Old Shepherd writes;

Second problem with this comment. The words highlighted above. Your interpretation is based on your feelings not scholarship. "I think" "it seems".

...{I think and it seems} that this comment is also based on feelings. Who is being more offensive to the reader? I get your goad!

GOAD: a long, pointed stick for prodding animals

Michael

Announcement

Piercing

Piercing

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment