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  • #61
    Righteousness Comes Not By Decree!

    Hi Ben YAHWEH and Thummim,

    Well, it does seem that you two do agree concerning the righteousness of Israel that it is by decree. I would have you look at another possibility, and this is not easy to teach or explain so bear with me.

    Abraham's belief was credited to him as righteousness. Thus, the act of belief is like unto righteousness, but belief is not righteousness. Righteousness is the commandments of YAHWEH ELOHIM. One can only have righteousness by doing righteousness. James expresses it in this manner:
    James 2:19-24
    19 Thou believest that there is one ELOHIM; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ELOHIM, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of ELOHIM.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (made righteous), and not by faith only. (KJV)
    Paul made this statement about becoming righteous:
    Rom 2:13
    13 For not the hearers of the law are just before ELOHIM, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (KJV)
    This statement by Paul is 100% in agreement with James, and both James and Paul are 100% in disagreement with your idea of anyone being justified by decree.

    On the other hand, there is a righteousness that is a gift (Romans 5:17). Even if this righteousness is a gift, this still does not rule out the possibility that all of us have been given a gift or grace of doing the commandments of YAHWEH through Messiah Yahushua, does it not? Do you see the distinction that I am asking you to make in your minds? You think that YAHWEH will decree to the each of you, righteousness, or you think that YAHWEH has decreed to you righteousness. I am asking you to consider the circumstances whereby YAHWEH can make you righteous by actually giving to the both you, as a gift, a doing of the Law. If YAHWEH gives to us a doing of HIS commandments, and when we examine the issue, we see that we have actually done as commanded, then we actually are righteous, are we not? And this righteousness is not by decree. It is by doing. Do you grasp with I am saying here or the distinction that I am attempting to make?

    Sincerely, Spying
    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

    Comment


    • #62
      The theif cometh to kill, rob and plunder the people.

      Spying writes;

      This statement by Paul is 100% in agreement with James, and both James and Paul are 100% in disagreement with your idea of anyone being justified by decree.

      ...Do you realize how foolish you sound? Are you trying to tell me that YHWH cannot declare his people to be righteous? But he did exactly that. Trying to gain your righteousness only out of keeping the law, is doomed to fail if all men are sinners through it. Who is he that hasn't sinned? He who gives the law, is the only one who can forgive it's lawbreakers. And he has.


      23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ELOHIM, and (**it was imputed unto him for righteousness**): and he was called the Friend of ELOHIM.

      ...By whom was it imputed unto him for righteousness? Do you mean that YHWH decreed Abraham to be righteous? But how can he do that with the limitations that you impose upon YHWH. Either he can decree righteousness, or he cannot.

      ...YHWH's decree of righteousness, is the only key to the prison of the law. His people were set free!


      Rom 2:13
      13 For not the hearers of the law are just before ELOHIM, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (KJV)

      ...But who justifies? Isn't it he who declares one to be righteous? The decree is more than the law. Without the key, you are trapped in the prison.

      I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions (**for mine own sake**), --> and will not remember thy sins. Isa. 43: 25

      (**I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins**): return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa. 44: 22


      ...It all seems very plain to me. YHWH has vindicated his people, by his own decree.


      Spying writes;

      Even if this righteousness is a gift, this still does not rule out the possibility that all of us have been given a gift or grace of doing the commandments of YAHWEH through Messiah Yahushua, does it not?

      ...What you don't seem to get, is that (jesus) did not make his people righteous with his knowledge. He instead deemed them unrighteous. His words are not "all righteous", neither is he in the right time to open the two leaved gates of Babylon, to release the prisoners.

      ....Michael

      Comment


      • #63
        THE JUST ONE

        Hi Thummim,
        Trying to gain your righteousness only out of keeping the law, is doomed to fail if all men are sinners through it. Who is he that hasn't sinned? He who gives the law, is the only one who can forgive it's lawbreakers. And he has.
        This is your thinking and reasoning, Thummim, and your reasoning is only partially correct. This is not the full perspective of YAHWEH ELOHIM. HE said:
        Isa 45:23
        23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness,..... (KJV)
        To be sure, as you note, according to the scriptures, all men have sinned. On the one hand, the whole nation of Israel became sinners after the giving of and acceptance of the Law. Did Israel ask for the Law? No, they did not. Did Israel command YAHWEH concerning which commandments they be given? No, they did not. So, Israel was given righteousness to perform solely at the discretion of YAHWEH when Israel was given the Law (Moses did have some later input). Accordingly, this righteousness to perform is in the nature of a gift. You could call it a marriage gift if you are so inclined. With the acceptance of this righteousness, this gift, Israel almost immediately sinned. So, we can readily state and conclude as you have above that "all men are sinners through it (the Law)." Thus, the Law gives both righteousness and sin. Why would YAHWEH ELOHIM give Israel the gift of sin? Has HE not sworn by HIMSELF?

        Under the right circumstances, sin can become righteousness if all men are sinners save for one. It is written:
        Hab 2:4
        4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the Tzaddik shall live by his faith. (KJV)
        It is also written:
        Ezek 18:20
        20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die..... (KJV)
        In the right hands, our prison becomes freedom if there is only one who should take the Law to heart and believe that the Law can be kept. Now, there is a danger here. Let's say that I fully believe from the beginning that I can keep the Law. What do I have? I have life and righteousness if I should do so, but what good does this life and righteousness do for me if I remain alone? Living forever by yourself is also a prison. So, if I am the one who can accomplish the Law, then I must guard against having a soul which is lifted up against my people. I must work to make my people righteous. This takes faith. The Tzaddik believes that He can help the sinner become a saint. The Tzaddik actually believes that the sinner can repent and live as YAHWEH does teach us all through his servant Ezekiel. This is the fundamental role of the Messiah, and this role is accomplished in righteousness. The Jewish Messiah is the JUST ONE, and it was with great expectation that the Jews were looking for his coming two thousand years ago.

        Now, if you are the Just One, what is it that you can do for me, the sinner? Well, Thummim, it just so happens that I have need to come before YAHWEH ELOHIM with a burnt offering for my atonement. You see, I didn't believe, I didn't keep the Law. I sinned. So, I need to offer a sacrifice. For my atonement, I need a whole burnt offering, and for my purification, I need a Red Heifer. Where in all the world am I going to find these things. By myself, I have sworn. What are the chances that YAHWEH ELOHIM just might provide me with these sacrifices? The chances are very good if I like Abraham have faith in HIS word and place my trust and hope in YAHWEH. In order to be my sacrifice, this Just One is going to suffer a tremendous amount of abuse. It is horrible to contemplate all of the things required by the Law happening to one human being, but it is necessary if I am to have atonement and peace.

        So, I can believe, can I not, that I can bring a sacrifice through faith in the Just One if and when the Just One does manifest himself?

        Now, why is this faith necessary? This is no atonement without the death of the sinner. There is no peace without the death of the sinner. I cannot become truly one with an animal, but I can become one with another human being. Through the sacrifice of the JUST ONE (sacrifice is also the righteousness of ELOHIM), I can prove to YAHWEH ELOHIM that I, the sinner, have died. If I have truly died, then there is peace. So, what do I need? I need several things. I need the Just One. I need the Law, and I need faith. I need all these things to work together for my good. There is one other thing that I need: I need to be a sinner, don't I? So you see, through the work of the Just One, it can be seen that YAHWEH ELOHIM has given to me the gift of righteousness at the very same time HE gave to me the gift of sin through the Law. Thanks be to Messiah Yahushua that HIS heart was upright in him!!

        Have a good Sabbath Day, Thummim.

        Sincerely, Spying
        The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

        Comment


        • #64
          Misunderstandings.

          Hab 2:4
          4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the Tzaddik shall live by his faith. (KJV)

          ...He righteous shall live by "their own" faith. They do not live by the faith of the unrighteous man. This is a mistake that is often made by those who only read the KJV. The author makes a scathing accusation of this corrupt leader. As to the altar, we must remember that there is no atonement for intentional sin. This fact skews our understanding of sin offerings. It is YHWH that makes the transgressor righteous by forgiving his sin. If he sins unintentionally, he can bring his offering to the priest. {assuming he is bound to the covenant}

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          Spying writes;

          I must work to make my people righteous.

          ...Spying, only YHWH can make a person righteous by forgiving their transgression. A forgiven person is a righteous person. An unforgiven person is always due YHWH's angst. There is one people who cannot be in the wrath of YHWH. It's for you to figure out why.

          9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. Isa. 54: 9

          The waters of Noah come with YHWH's promise. Never again

          If you doubt this author, then doubt him also in the case of Isaiah's fifty-third chapter.

          ...No more anger, infers righteousness. The author tells you which people are found righteous forever, unto the end of the world. And this vindication takes place in the time of Cyrus. See, a knowledgeable servant of YHWH, can prove a righteous people, (all) righteous!

          17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and (**every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn**). (**This is the "heritage" of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is of "me", saith YHWH**). Isa. 54: 17

          ...You really hate the righteousness of this people. But YHWH wants them to be righteous, so he makes them righteous. Is forgivness of sin, for the righteous? Does the righteous man need forgiveness? Moses certainly did. But he was still righteous. YHWH makes him righteous. But you say, "how can the sinner be righteous? I say, the forgiven of YHWH, are (all) righteous. YHWH said that he has vindicated the sinners and transgressors amoung his people, in Isa. 44: 22. Who then is left unforgiven of YHWH's people? The clouds of of YHWH {the name} surrounds YHWH's righteous servant. {so I've been told} He will make the multitude of YHWH's people, righteous by his knowledge. This (jesus) didn't do. You are proof of that.

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          Spying writes;

          Now, if you are the Just One, what is it that you can do for me, the sinner? Well, Thummim, it just so happens that I have need to come before YAHWEH ELOHIM with a burnt offering for my atonement. You see, I didn't believe, I didn't keep the Law. I sinned.

          ...and if you are in covenant to YHWH, your atonement will take care of the sins that you did not intend. But without YHWH's forgiveness, your atonement will do you no good. To think, you have disallowed this blanket of forgiveness for the covenanted ones. They are forgiven, but you are not. Isn't this what (jesus) teaches in the NT? And to think, you didn't believe him.

          XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

          Spying writes;

          I need a Red Heifer.

          ...Have you touched death? Perhaps you have. But a red heifer will do nothing for your unintentional sins. These ashes are for intentional impurity that comes from having touched death. This impurity you cannot bring back into the camp of the righteous ones. To enter the camp, is to defile the sanctuary of YHWH. For unintentional sin {if this is what you are interested in atoning for}, you will need more than a red heifer {red female cow}, you will need many other offerings. Still, you will have to deal with your intentional sins, afterwards. For these, there is no atonement.

          28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before YHWH, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

          29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

          30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

          31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 28 - 31

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          Your pascel offering

          16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of YHWH.

          17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

          18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:

          19 But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto YHWH; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish:

          20 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram;

          21 A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs:

          22 And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.

          23 Ye shall offer these beside the burnt offering in the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering.

          24 After this manner ye shall offer daily, throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto YHWH: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering. Nu. 28: 16 - 24

          ...Your messiah is supposed to be a "pascel offering", isn't he?

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          5 O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; (**that ye may know the righteousness of YHWH**).

          6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

          7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

          8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

          9 YHWH'S voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy "name": hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it. Mi. 6: 5 - 9

          ...I really wish that you could understand. Baruch Hashem,

          ....Michael

          Comment


          • #65
            I Have Weakness And Many Needs!

            Hi Thummim,

            Good morning, and thank you for your well intentioned wishes! My Just One, Messiah Yahushua, is the fulfillment of every sacrifice required of me by the Torah. How this fulfillment all works together timewise and with respect to location is beyond my understanding; eventhough, I have been seeking to understand exactly how everything works together for most of my adult life. You are extremely perceptive to recognize my weakness in this area?

            And so, yes, I do have many other needs besides the ones that I have already listed for you. I need many things. I need an altar. I need a high priest. I need a priesthood. I need a Holy Place. I need an inner Altar. I need a Holy of Holies. I need a Mercy Seat. I have need of many other things too numerous to mention in this post. Thus, I do have need of a source of grace and mercy greater than myself. "By myself I have sworn!"

            You, on the other hand, have need of none of these things so why do you even waste any brain power concerning them or place them on your lips? You and your fellow Jews were made righteous long ago by a decree of YAHWEH so you no longer have need of the provisions of the Covenant that bring sanctification, purification, atonement, forgiveness, and remission for and of sins. As far as I can tell from your knowledge, you and the Jews have been personally pardoned and this grace and mercy belongs to you and yours forever simply because you are Jews and in spite of what you do with your life and walk. I have not this awareness or consciousness.

            So, I will pursue those things which you have cast aside and no longer need or value. I have and will pursue as a dog (celeb) the crumbs that you have let fall from your table.

            You see, I do have a sense that I am going to die. This means that death has already touched me. I have already been defiled by death through the power of sin. The Law is the power of sin. Now, I want to live, and it is very difficult for me to understand why no one anymore desires to live? I don't understand why we all so meekly go to our graves, but that is my problem. You have not that problem because it does not matter if a Jew sins. You have been declared righteous. You no longer have need of a Savior, a Messiah. You have your name, and that is your salvation. Humm, so I suppose that Jews no longer die unless they are led to the slaughter?

            As for me and my family, I will seek the help that comes through "By myself I have sworn!" I will seek HIS lawful, spiritual purification from sin and death, and I will seek the knowledge and understanding that the Just One, Messiah Yahushua, brings to me through this purification. After all, purification from death is possible or it would not be the Law! So, I seek life! I seek to live!

            Sincerely, Spying
            The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

            Comment


            • #66
              Righteous, but not without sin.

              Spying writes;

              You and your fellow Jews were made righteous long ago by a decree of YAHWEH so you no longer have need of the provisions of the Covenant that bring sanctification, purification, atonement, forgiveness, and remission for and of sins. As far as I can tell from your knowledge, you and the Jews have been personally pardoned and this grace and mercy belongs to you and yours forever simply because you are Jews and in spite of what you do with your life and walk.

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              ...I think that the difficult thing to get past in your faith, is that a sinner can be righteous. This does not mean that one has impunity to transgress the will of YHWH. Moses was righteous. Moses also sinned and offended YHWH to the point that he was left standing on the wrong side of the Jordan river. While he watched his people crossed the river without him, his people learned how important it was to "sanctify" YHWH's name. This name would be their defense against their enemies.

              10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of YHWH; and they shall be afraid of thee. Deut. 28: 10

              ...The people who crossed the river were also righteous. Yet they too, offended their Eloheem on what seems to be a regular basis. Even so, YHWH refused to allow them to be cursed. {by Balaam, as Malak sought} While maintaining the prison that existed for the lawbreakers, {Deut. 28}, YHWH showed that this people were righteous, though still transgressors. The unintentional sins could be dealt with by Aarons priesthood, but it took YHWH's own righteousness to heal his people. {keeping the law is always important} You have permission to believe in a people's righteousness while seeing their transgressions surround them. This is what our righteous GD see's in all of us. If he see's our transgressions, but wants to separate us as righteous, he must also see righteousness through the haze of our shortcomings. All Israel is righteous to him, even though all Israel isn't free of sin. But being righteous is the "key" to the prison door. Isa. 53 asks of it's servant, that he makes (all) Israel's seed, righteous. There is no option for this servant to fail. {even if rejected by men} He is to inherit those, whom he makes righteous. {Isa. 53: 12} While this all happens in the time of Cyrus, your messiah (jesus), as a renewed image of his predesessor, must do the same. YHWH want's his servant to prove his people righteous by his (knowledge). For this is what is wrong in this world. The world's people do not (know) that Israel is a righteous people. They treat JEWs as unrighteous. And yet, every tongue is to swear to this righteousness. What happens to those who contend with Israel's righteousness? Doesn't time, {the moth} eat them up? And when the valley of decision fills with the worlds peoples, isn't it so that YHWH can show his peoples righteousness, in the time of their oppresson? What have they done to this people, "YaHudaH", that YHWH is now called upon to make an appearance, on this day of his wrath? That YHWH clears his people every fifty years, of the debt's that have accumulated against them, is the fly in Jeremiah's ointment. They do not leave Babylon after seventy years in the prison, but rather after serving fifty years under YHWH's imposed imprisonment, within his law. It is fifty years that pass, until Cyrus makes his decree to rebuild Jerusalem. -586 BCE until - 536 should be the correct count of years. This is an example of righteous by the law. The thirty-fourth chapter of Jeremiah will explain why this year was the exceptable year of YHWH's redemption. It tells us that YHWH was upset when his captives were not set free, as they should have been. There is seven sevens to the fiftieth year, and there are fifty fifties until Israel re-inhabits the land of Israel forever. I think this is what you have been looking for, to validate Israel's renewed claim upon the land. {one by law} Wouldn't YHWH do it this way? After a very long time, Israel is again, a nation. Though a little naked, {Israel without knowledge of their GD's name} he that owns the red thread can claim the name of GD, {YaHudah}, and wrap all Israel in it. {a garment of "praise"} This garment of "praise" is very precious. Understanding the "book", only comes in understanding the name of YHWH. Through his name, he {YHWH's righteous servant} will end the assault that all JEWs have endured against themselves, some by moslems, but most by christians. The root of Jesse is Yahudah, the tribe that "bears" the name of "YHWH". The banner of Yahudah is raised in the name of GD.

              10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, {one of twelve} which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the "nations" {of Israel "vs. 12"} seek: and his rest shall be glorious. {as the name of YHWH is shown as glory in Ex. 34} Isa. 11: 10

              5 We will rejoice in thy salvation, and (**in the name of our God we will set up our banners**): YHWH fulfil all thy petitions. Isa. 20: 5 KJV.

              ....Michael

              Comment

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