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  • The personal pardon.

    ...I've been trying to think of who, among the characters of the tanakh, recieved individual pardons from YHWH. The first name that comes to mind is Noah. Among a multitude of people, he alone is said to have found grace in YHWH's sight. This grace seems to work for his family and so it may not qualify as an individual pardon. The Blanket pardon that YHWH seems to prefer, suggests that YHWH doesn't concern himself with individual sin, as much as with communal sin. The next person that I can think of, who seems to have gained an individual pardon, is David. Chapter 12 of II Samuel, tells the story of Nathan the prophet telling David that he has offended YHWH in taking Uriah's wife to himself. For this sin, YHWH did not make only David suffer, but he made his throne suffer with him. Even this pardon seems incomplete, because (II Sam. 12: 10) makes the debt of this sin, an everlasting debt.

    10 Now therefore (*the sword shall never depart from thine house*); because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against YHWH. And Nathan said unto David, (*YHWH also hath put away thy sin*); thou shalt not die. YHWH spares the (--> life) of David, but does not completely pass over his sin.

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    ..."The sword shall never depart" from Davids house, seems like a sentence being given for an incompletely pardoned sin. But I must take YHWH at his word, that David sin is (*put away*) from YHWH. The next individual pardon that I can remember, belongs to Manasseh. II Chr. 33: 13 gives the account of Manasseh intreating YHWH through prayer and being returned to Jerusalem and to his throne afterwards. Perhaps others can add to this list of individual pardons. They do seem rare. The blanket pardon reigns as YHWH's chosen method of pardoning his people. After the Babalonian captivity, such a pardon was given. (Isa. 44:22) None of these people had to save their souls. Soul-saving seems out of place in the tanakh. So the New Testement represents a new aspect of YHWH's faith. The salvation of the tanakh is about saving the (*living persons*) that YHWH favors. The NT now makes its mantle, saving the (souls) of the people, far more important than saving their lives. The man, (jesus) does not play savior to the lives of Israel or to the tribe of Yahudah. He introduces something new. Because he can't, and didn't become a savior to the "living" of Israel, he now becomes the savior of the dieing in Israel. Well sort of anyway. He actually seems to fail in this venture also, if you ask the x-tians. {are JEWs saved?}Isn't the promised salvation which is to follow the Babylonian captivity, one of saving lives? Again and again, Isaiah talks of what is to become of Jacob's enemies, and how his people are to be redeemed. In part, this redemption is the fall of Babylon. I think that all of Israel was found righteous by YHWH, but the rest of the world hasn't caught on yet. This really reflects sorely on the claims of (jesus) to be any kind of messiah. He should have comforted his people and proclaimed their pardon from YHWH, as it is written. (Isa. 40: 1-3) But he instead, was the ambassador of destruction. (Lk. 19: 43, 44) Hasn't it occured to anyone, that people love their own salvation, more than they do righteousness? They still will not let the innocent go free. So, who is Pharaoh now?

    ....Michael

  • #2
    The Shadow

    Peace Mr. Thummim,

    You bring a couple good points up, most of which highlight errs of 'xtianity'.

    People of the world are to caught on 'I am saved', look at me, you can to, just BELIEVE. "Yeah, you don't even have to follow commandments", many seem to say.

    According to 'xtians' they Jews are not saved. They will 'burn in hell' forever. Strange wouldn't you say? The New Testement states that the Jews minds have been 'blinded' from seeing the Hebrew Bible. Then 'xtians' will say that because YHWY has done this, he will also make them suffer for ever and ever.

    I often think of 2Kings 17...where the People learn to fear YHWH, then still do all the things they used to do. Bummer.

    Who is Pharoah? A thought I think I will think about.

    Sincerely,
    Robert
    Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

    Comment


    • #3
      Can We Have Some Of Your Blanket?

      Hi Thummim,

      The New Testament Scriptures speaks of your blanket pardon in this manner: First Messiah says:
      Matt 12:31
      31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (KJV)
      Then Peter says:
      Acts 3:19-21
      19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of YAHWEH;
      20 And he shall send Yahushua Messiah, which before was preached unto you:
      21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which ELOHIM hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (KJV)
      Later Paul says:
      Rom 11:32
      32 For ELOHIM hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (KJV)

      Gal 3:22
      22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Yahushua Messiah might be given to them that believe. (KJV)
      Thummim, you want to selectively give the marvelous and all encompassing mercy of YAHWEH only to Johnny Come Lately successive generations of the Children of Israel. You condemn me and others for cursing Jews whenever we say that they have need to repent of their sins. Yet, you are very happy and rejoice when the sins of the Goyim are listed and proclaimed and punished. Arafat is to me a leader of his people. He deserves your respect, but to you he is a bum. Sharon is a leader of your people. He has your respect. His sins are pardoned. He is a hero.

      You have a very limited sense of the fairness of YAHWEH, and you have a very biased sense of HIS mercy and pardon. If YAHWEH has concern for cattle, why would he not have concern for all of us Goyim and also give to us HIS pardon?

      In the reckoning, the Children of Israel, who were not pardoned for their sins, many of them were cast aside by YAHWEH and cut off from Israel, they will speak against your false teaching about YAHWEH that he would give a blanket pardon to the Jews who do now disobey YAHWEH. That is spiritual drunkenness. This understanding is thoroughly condemned by Yahweh through Moses:
      Deut 29:18-20
      18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from YAHWEH our ELOHIM, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
      19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
      20 YAHWEH will not spare him, but then the anger of YAHWEH and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and YAHWEH shall blot out his name from under heaven. (KJV)
      The reason why there exists a blanket pardon for all men through Messiah Yahushua is because all men have died in Messiah's crucifixion. Those who have died have paid for their sins. This is why YAHWEH is able to pardon all because all have died (I know that this appears to be a make believe death, but this is exactly the teaching of Paul!) Anyone, who continues in their sin after learning that sin kills, commits murder and suicide. They will not be pardoned again.

      So, Thummim, all of us had best be repenting, and this includes the Jews. Have a good Sabbath Day!

      Sincerely, Spying
      The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Separating the living, from the dead.

        Gal 3:22
        22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Yahushua Messiah might be given to them that believe. (KJV)

        ...I take exception with Paul. If all are under sin, to what purpose is the Levitical Priesthood? Is it just YHWH's foolishness? Then also, Paul would have to denigh YHWH's ability to forgive the transgressions of his people. If you and Paul believe that a state of sin ruled over the holiness that YHWH prefered for his people, then YHWH is made a fool by Paul. For holiness and sin do not make friends easily. The blanket pardon is what YHWH was after. He wants his people to be a holy people, just like he is holy. I've been trying to think of others whom, after they have offended YHWH, got his personal pardon. These pardons are very rare. But I know that a people can become guilty for the sin of its leader. A blanket conviction meets a blanket pardon.


        6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

        7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that YHWH hath said will we do, and be obedient.

        8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant {brit}, which YHWH hath made with you concerning all these words. Ex. 24: 6 - 7

        ---------------------------------------------------------

        ...The word translated covenant is "brit". The blood of these animals that are sacrificed, is used to serve the "brit". The brit does not cover the worlds people. The brit is cut into the flesh of YHWH's people. Why are you always trying to move the "brit" to cover all people's? The priesthood serves the "brit". Outside of the "brit", the priesthood has no reason to exist. If YHWH wanted to include all people's, there wouldn't need to be a "brit" cut into the flesh of Israel. You are one person, who truly has indignation against the holy covenant between YHWH and his people. That YHWH has chosen his people and made them his personal "jewels", seems to offend you. A thief, is a thief, is a thief. I've no doubt that (jesus) will return as a thief, if he returns at all. Thieves are what the people who follow him, really are. Now, most of the time YHWH considers his people holy. That is without sin, like him. These are the pictures of redemption that Isaiah represents in many of his verses of text, which grant his people a "blanket" pardon.


        ...Spying writes;
        In the reckoning, the Children of Israel, who were not pardoned for their sins, many of them were cast aside by YAHWEH and cut off from Israel, they will speak against your false teaching about YAHWEH that he would give a blanket pardon to the Jews who do now disobey YAHWEH.

        ...Spying, I think that you are confusing the salvation of the living, with the pardoning of the dead. It is the living that the brit serves. It is kept in this life. The bloodless cannot inherit the land of Israel. Neither have they flesh to circumcise. You trip over your own ideas of salvation. The land beyond this life, all belongs to YHWH. As to Arafat, he assaults the name of Yahudah. He is assaulting the name of my Eloheem. I have permission to defend both the name of my Eloheem, and also his covenant with his people. Why do you think it bad to defend the covenant of YHWH? When Moses drew the line in the sand, calling all who would defend the name of YHWH, to take his side, you clearly wouldn't have been on his side of the line. You instead, would have been complaining that the enemies of Israel were being treated unfairly. You are reading the wrong book. I read ahead, and the land of Israel is given to Jacob and YHWH is on Jacob's side.

        ....Michael

        Comment


        • #5
          YAHUDIM, YAHWEH'S EXCEPTIONS

          Hi Thummim,

          Taking exception with Paul, here is the scripture which you must except:
          Ps 14:1-3
          1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no ELOHIM. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
          2 YAHWEH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek ELOHIM.
          3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)

          Ps 53:1-3
          1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no ELOHIM. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
          2 ELOHIM looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek ELOHIM.
          3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)

          Isa 41:26
          26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words. (KJV)

          1 Sam 2:2
          2 There is none holy as YAHWEH: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our ELOHIM. (KJV)

          Isa 53:6
          6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YAHWEH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)

          Jer 50:6
          6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. (KJV)

          Jer 2:13
          13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.(KJV)

          Jer 17:13
          13 O YAHWEH, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken YAHWEH, the fountain of living waters. (KJV)

          Lev 19:2-3
          2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I YAHWEH your ELOHIM am holy.
          3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am YAHWEH your ELOHIM. (KJV)
          There are many scriptures which command holiness for Israel. Atonement is commanded because there is a lack of holiness. Sanctification is commanded because there is a lack of cleanness. Purification is commanded because there is defilement through sin and death. The Levitical priesthood existed to convey these things for Israel. You are teaching against the covenant when you teach that pardon can come without purification:
          Num 19:20
          20 But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of YAHWEH: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean. (KJV)
          Has YAHWEH cast the words of HIS Covenant behind HIS back? You have need of a priest, Thummim, and so do your YAHUDISH brethren, that is, unless you are all truly as holy as YAHWEH?

          Sincerely, Spying
          The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

          Comment


          • #6
            An ashem? - oops!

            1 Thus saith YHWH, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? {does YHWH say that an offering is needed?}

            2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith YHWH: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

            3 (***He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations***).

            --> {Sacrifice}, don't put your faith into such things! (jesus) wants to make himself the only door to the throne of YHWH. Why do you suppose that he wants to do such a thing? Your anti-christ might be the one that you are already worshiping. It's only a few who find the path of righteousness, by his own words. Christianity is very many. Perhaps christianity will find the fire of YHWH's altar yet. Justice is dealing with those who have harmed YHWH's people. Isn't this what the valley of decision is about?

            4 (**I also will choose their delusions**), and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

            5 Hear the word of YHWH, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, (***that cast you out --> for my name's sake***), said, Let YHWH be glorified: (**but he shall appear to your joy**), --> and they shall be ashamed. Isa. 66: 1 - 5

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            6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

            7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

            8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mi. 6: 6 - 8

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            6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; (***mine ears hast thou opened***): burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps. 40: 6
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            16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

            17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise {me}. Ps. 51: 16, 17

            ---------------------------------------------------------

            17 The righteous cry, and YHWH heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.

            18 YHWH is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

            19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but YHWH delivereth him out of them all. Ps. 34: 17 - 19
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            6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and {*the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings*}. Ps. 6: 6

            ---------------------------------------------------------

            ...Spying, you know that a sacrifice for sin or guilt can only be made by fire. If the altar has no fire, how can it be called an altar of YHWH's? Even the children of strange gods put fire to their altars. You have no fire for your altar. At least we {the JEWish people} have a name to trust in. Baruch Hashem!

            ....Michael

            Comment


            • #7
              Isaiah's 53 chapter is a blanket pardon that belongs to YHWH's people.

              ...Not even Isa. 53 offers up a personal pardon, belonging to an individual. The pardon is offered to YHWH's {now righteous} people. He who works for this peoples pardon, inherits the now righteous multitude. It is by his {knowledge}, that this servant justifies the many {JEWish, all tribes included} people. Even Isaiah 11: 4 says that his weapon is in the words of his mouth. When did (jesus) justify his people? Quote me some verses. I know where he speaks in condemnation of his people, but where does he defend them? He who curses the JEWish people, curses the name of YHWH. The servant of Isa. 53 is {*included*, vs. 12} in this people. He makes intercession for this people. Your messiah (jesus) has no intercesary words to speak for YHWH's people. I want him to defend the house of Yahudah.

              ....Michael

              Comment


              • #8
                Speckled and short of perfection, but with a blanket pardon.

                ...It occurs to me that a decree of righteousness must carry some sin along with it. Knowing what we do, about the nature of people, we can assume that such a decree must allow some sin also. The righteous ones are righteous by decree, but individually unrighteous. A person who does not meet righteousness perfectly, may still be a servant of YHWH's. This certainly meets who David is, as well as the proclaimed followers of YHWH. We are all speckled like the flock of Jacob. David has a few sins, but is always considered righteous. Moses and Aaron also are righteous sinners. Can we assume that YHWH already knows of our inability to be perfect in righteousness, but covers us in his righteous decree anyway? Can a people commit sin and yet be a righteous people? This is certainly the case for the seed of Jacob. When YHWH decrees them righteous, they are righteous to YHWH. The nature of the heart seems to be YHWH's real concern. Its not how righteous we are, but the nature of our own hearts, that goes before the judge. To decree YHWH's people, as unrighteous to YHWH, is to expose our own heart to YHWH's judgement. The judgement that we render, we also recieve.

                --------------------------------------------------------

                For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos. 6: 6


                16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

                17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Ps. 51: 16, 17

                ---------------------------------------------------------

                6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

                7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

                8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mi. 6: 6 - 8

                ---------------------------------------------------------

                ...Sometimes the altar is not enough.

                ---------------------------------------------------------


                ....Michael

                Comment


                • #9
                  Speak Now Or Forever Hold Your Peace!

                  Hi Thummim,

                  Whenever you speak of being individually unrighteous, but nonetheless individually righteous by the decree of YAHWEH, you are beginning to sound more Christian than the Christians. If this teaching is representative of Jewish thinking, then I can full well see from whence Christianity received its teaching about substitutional righteousness. While you may not give recognition to the name of the false Christian Messiah, you seem to fully believe what they believe. The only difference is that you are expecting this pardon to occur in the future. They believe in a blanket pardon irrespective of individual merit. You believe in a blanket pardon irrespective of individual merit. They believe in pardon through substitutional sacrifice. You believe in pardon without sacrifice depending solely on the mercy of YAH. Both are contrary to the Scriptures. No where do the prophets speak against sacrifice as you do now speak. No where do the Prophets of YAH speak of the mercy of YAH coming to men despite HIS Covenant. They do however speak against the sinner bringing his sacrifice in a state of sin thinking that the sacrifice does in some fashion provide substitutional righteousness and/or atonement before YAHWEH. This was the fallacy of their false salvation. Now, you are much bolder. You strongly affirm the scriptures which point to the mercy of YAH; yet, you speak against the righteousness of YAH (all the commandments to sacrifice) as somehow being contrary to HIS mercy. If, in your mind, sacrifice is no longer required by YAHWEH. How do you deal with these scriptures:
                  Isa 8:20
                  20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (KJV)

                  Deut 4:2
                  2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YAHWEH your ELOHIM which I command you. (KJV)

                  Deut 12:32
                  32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)
                  Now, I fully agree that YAH can offer a New Covenant to a new wife, but it is not reasonable or righteous to affirm that YAH would not live by the terms and conditions of any Covenant that HE establishes. So, you and the Jews must sacrifice, that is, unless you can prove that all of you have somehow entered into a New Covenant with YAHWEH.

                  Sincerely, Spying
                  The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Righteous to whom, (jesus) or YHWH?

                    Spying says; The only difference is that you are expecting this pardon to occur (in the future).

                    ...Not in the future, the pardon has already been given in the past. It belongs to the people released from Babylon. (jesus) faced a righteous people, declared so by YHWH.

                    21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

                    22 (***I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee***).

                    23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: (***for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel***). Isa. 44: 21 - 23

                    ---------------------------------------------------------

                    28 That saith (*of Cyrus --> sets the date), He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Isa. 44: 28

                    ---------------------------------------------------------

                    ...These verses of text are in the same chapter of Isaiah. The people who come out of Babylon are righteous by decree of YHWH. Being righteous by a proclamation of YHWH, counts. It is one way of being a righteous people. This is a blanket righteousness for all of YHWH's people. It is the same "blanket" kind of righteousness offered by Isa. 53, except that Isa 53 uses substitution to cover (all) of the "author's" people.

                    Spying says; You believe in pardon without sacrifice depending solely on the mercy of YAH. Both are contrary to the Scriptures. No where do the prophets speak against sacrifice as you do now speak.

                    ...Didn't I list chapter and verse concerning the nature of sacrifice? These are not my opinions. They are real verses of text taken from the tanakh. Do you disagree with these authors? How are these authors, contrary to scripture? They make scripture as they write.

                    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

                    For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos. 6: 6


                    16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

                    17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Ps. 51: 16, 17

                    ---------------------------------------------------------

                    6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

                    7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

                    8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mi. 6: 6 - 8

                    ---------------------------------------------------------

                    ...Sometimes the altar is not enough. (my opinion)

                    ---------------------------------------------------------

                    Spying references these verses;

                    Isa 8:20
                    20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (KJV)

                    Deut 4:2
                    2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YAHWEH your ELOHIM which I command you. (KJV)

                    Deut 12:32
                    32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)

                    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

                    ...Your complaint is with the authors of the texts, that I quoted above. They faced a time of missing sacrifices and made their conclusions based on their own times. I don't disagree with them.


                    Spying says;

                    Now, I fully agree that YAH can offer a New Covenant to a new wife, but it is not reasonable or righteous to affirm that YAH would not live by the terms and conditions of any Covenant that HE establishes. So, you and the Jews must sacrifice, that is, unless you can prove that all of you have somehow entered into a New Covenant with YAHWEH.

                    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

                    ...It seems to me, that the new covenant belongs to those who leave Babylon, and whom YHWH declares righteous.

                    ...You can sacrifice a man for your sin, if you like. But I have a decree of righteousness from YHWH. (You shouldn't think that a righteous Eloheem, would require a righteous man be executed for the guilty) This approach, Moses tried out, but YHWH refused him. Can't you figure it out, that righteousness doesn't come from sacrifice's? If YHWH should decree his people to be righteous, why wouldn't that be enough? Your problem is that (jesus) cannot be a messiah when YHWH is the righteousness of his own people. (Isa. 54 --> read it!) The messiah should say something like this, "your warfare is over!". (Isa. 40: 1 - 3) Ending warfare is a talent that is messianic. Salvation brings peace. We still await our messiah. In the meantime we still have our Eloheem.

                    6 For YHWH hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. (*--> he takes back his wife*)

                    7 (*For a small moment*) have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will (*I gather thee*).

                    8 In (*a little wrath*) I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with (*everlasting kindness*) will I have mercy on thee, saith YHWH (*thy Redeemer*). Isa. 5: 6 - 8


                    5 For (***thy Maker is thine husband***); YHWH of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa. 54: 5
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                    ....Michael

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thummim
                      ...Not even Isa. 53 offers up a personal pardon, belonging to an individual. The pardon is offered to YHWH's {now righteous} people. He who works for this peoples pardon, inherits the now righteous multitude. It is by his {knowledge}, that this servant justifies the many {JEWish, all tribes included} people. Even Isaiah 11: 4 says that his weapon is in the words of his mouth. When did (jesus) justify his people? Quote me some verses. I know where he speaks in condemnation of his people, but where does he defend them? He who curses the JEWish people, curses the name of YHWH. The servant of Isa. 53 is {*included*, vs. 12} in this people. He makes intercession for this people. Your messiah (jesus) has no intercesary words to speak for YHWH's people. I want him to defend the house of Yahudah.

                      ....Michael
                      Not even Isa. 53 offers up a personal pardon, belonging to an individual.

                      Isaiah 53 may not, but Isaiah 55 certainly does, as well as several other verses in the Tenakh.

                      Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he (singular) that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
                      7 Let the wicked forsake his (sing.) way, and the unrighteous man his (sing.) thoughts: and let him (sing.) return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him (sing.); and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


                      Zech 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father (singular) , so also the soul of the son (sing.) is mine: the soul (sing.) that sinneth, it (sing.) shall die.
                      5 But if a man (sing.) be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
                      6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his (sing.) eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
                      7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his (sing.) bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
                      8 He (sing.) that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his (sing.) hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
                      9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he (sing.) is just, he (sing.) shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
                      10 If he (sing.) beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
                      11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
                      12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
                      13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he (sing.) then live? he (sing.) shall not live: he (sing.) hath done all these abominations; he (sing.) shall surely die; his (sing.) blood shall be upon him.


                      Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he (singular) looketh upon it, shall live.
                      9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he (sing.) beheld the serpent of brass, he (sing.) lived.


                      Individual sins, and personal pardons belonging to the individual. And these are only a few verses off the top of my head.

                      When did (jesus) justify his people? Quote me some verses. I know where he speaks in condemnation of his people, but where does he defend them?

                      I was not aware that when a person switched religions from Christianity to Judaism that they were instantly struck with spiritual and Biblical amnesia.

                      Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

                      Of whom is Jesus, speaking?

                      Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

                      John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
                      21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

                      Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Lu 13:34)

                      And for all who were responsible for his death, Romans, Jews, etc,

                      Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

                      Your messiah (jesus) has no intercesary words to speak for YHWH's people. I want him to defend the house of Yahudah.

                      And let us not forget the beatitudes. Even baby Christians 4 and 5 years old know these.

                      Mt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
                      4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
                      5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
                      6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
                      7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
                      8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
                      9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
                      10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
                      11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

                      To whom was Jesus speaking, gentiles? Not hardly!Great multitudes from Galilee, Jerusalem, and Judea.” Jesus used the word blessed nine times. But they were not blessed simply because they were physical Yehudim.

                      Mat 4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

                      Again these are only a few off the top of my head. A person who claims to have been a Christian would certainly know these passages. Can you explain why these are not blatant, knowingly false statements, and allegations?
                      Nullus Frigidus Auxilium Gratia
                      Zaqunra'ahyahuw

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Thummim
                        ... ...You can sacrifice a man for your sin, if you like. But I have a decree of righteousness from YHWH. (You shouldn't think that a righteous Eloheem, would require a righteous man be executed for the guilty) This approach, Moses tried out, but YHWH refused him. Can't you figure it out, that righteousness doesn't come from sacrifice's? If YHWH should decree his people to be righteous, why wouldn't that be enough? Your problem is that (jesus) cannot be a messiah when YHWH is the righteousness of his own people. (Isa. 54 --> read it!) The messiah should say something like this, "your warfare is over!". (Isa. 40: 1 - 3) Ending warfare is a talent that is messianic. Salvation brings peace. We still await our messiah. In the meantime we still have our Eloheem.
                        More lies about what the N.T. says. Since you have posted this dog puke back it up from the N.T., please show any verse anywhere that that states that a “man” was sacrificed for anyone’s sin. Or that Elohim “requires” a righteous man be executed for the guilty.
                        Your problem is that you are continuously puking out lies about the N.T. as if you had never read it. But we have had this discussion before and you thought it was perfectly acceptable to insult me but when I responded you tucked your tail between your legs and ran crying over to Juanita’s forum where you knew you could post anything anti-N.T. and anti-Christian and she would delete any response she didn’t like.
                        Nullus Frigidus Auxilium Gratia
                        Zaqunra'ahyahuw

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We are still talking about a blanket pardon.

                          Old Shepherd's demeanor;

                          More lies about what the N.T. says. Since you have posted this dog puke back it up from the N.T.,

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                          Michael states;

                          The messiah should say something like this, "your warfare is over!". (Isa. 40: 1 - 3) Ending warfare is a talent that is messianic. Salvation brings peace. We still await our messiah. In the meantime we still have our Eloheem. Here I am refering to Mat. 3: 3

                          1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

                          2 Speak ye --> comfortably to Jerusalem, and (**cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished**), that (**her iniquity is pardoned**): for she hath received of YHWH's hand double for all her sins.

                          3 The (**voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God**). Isa. 40: 1 - 3 The context here is preparing a path through the wilderness to return to Jerusalem for the vindicated people of YHWH.

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                          3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, (**The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight**). Mat. 3: 3 The context of this passage of text, is overlooked by its author.


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                          43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

                          44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

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                          ...This is not a decree of peace. These are not comfortable words. He is not declaring his people to be righteous.

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                          What's the name of the individual who was pardoned?

                          1 Ho, (**every one that thirsteth**), come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

                          2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which isgood, and let your soul delight itself in (*fatness*).

                          3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make (**an everlasting covenant**) with you, even (**the sure mercies of David**). --> David = Yahudah = Jerusalem

                          --> Sure mercies?, this does not sound like (jesus)

                          4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

                          5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not {thee} shall run unto (**thee**) because of YHWH thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; (**for he hath glorified {thee}**).

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                          7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

                          8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the (*fatness*) of thy house; and (*thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures*).

                          9 For with thee is (*the fountain of life*): in thy light shall we see light.

                          10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart. Ps. 36: 7 - 10

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                          26 Bless ye God in the congregations, even the Lord, from the fountain of Israel.

                          27 There is little Benjamin withtheir ruler, the princes of Judah and their council, the princes of Zebulun, and the princes of Naphtali.

                          28 Thy God hath commanded thy strength: strengthen, O God, that which thou hast wrought for us.

                          29 Because of thy temple at Jerusalem shall kings bring presents unto thee. Ps. 68: 26 - 29

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                          YHWH is a fountain of life to his people, they being a nation of individuals, who were pardoned prior to leaving Babylon. But what does this have to do with an individual pardon? Aren't all freed?

                          ....Michael
                          Last edited by Thummim; 04-01-2002, 10:00 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A declaration of righteousness?

                            Old Shepherd,

                            ...I want to read where (jesus) declares either Israel or Jerusalem to be righteous. What you have posted does not do what I have asked. If (jesus) is the messiah, let him declare his people righteous. Let him deliver them as their leader, from the stranglehood of Rome.

                            ....Michael

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              People like to avoid dog puke!

                              Old Shepherd writes;

                              Your problem is that you are continuously puking out lies about the N.T. as if you had never read it. But we have had this discussion before and you thought it was perfectly acceptable to insult me but when I responded you tucked your tail between your legs and ran crying over to Juanita’s forum where you knew you could post anything anti-N.T. and anti-Christian and she would delete any response she didn’t like.

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                              ...How many times did I answer you? You certainly had at least ten answers from me. I answered you on both forums. Your [dog puke] attitude is what causes everybody to dislike you. As far as I know, Spying is the only one who likes you. Yes, posts were deleted from the Qumran forum. But they weren't mine! Nor were they Spyings posts either. And you still cannot figure out why your posts were deleted.

                              ....Michael

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