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  • Let's make a deal...

    OK, Michael,
    I opened another thread because I think that we are changing the subject of the previous one. I am getting back to "our" discussion regarding Jephthah. Regardless of what you and I believe, the record speaks for itself. Jephthah was not asked to sacrifice anyone. I can tell that. But in spite of having the "Spirit" of Yahweh come upon him ("wisdom" "counsel" "knowledge" and so one) he was not prevented from vowing and sacrificing anyone. Even after he made the vow. They even issued an "ordinance" (Strong #2706) in Israel endorsing Jephthah’s action!

    Judges 11:39b …And it was a “custom” (#2706) in Israel,

    BDB/Thayers # 2706
    02706 choq {khoke} from 02710; TWOT - 728a; n m
    KJV - statute 87, ordinance 9, decree 7, due 4, law 4, portion 3, bounds 2, custom 2, appointed 1, commandments 1, misc 7; 127
    1) statute, ordinance, limit, something prescribed, due
    1a) prescribed task
    1b) prescribed portion
    1c) action prescribed (for oneself), resolve
    1d) prescribed due
    1e) prescribed limit, boundary
    1f) enactment, decree, ordinance
    1f1) specific decree
    1f2) law in general
    1g) enactments, statutes
    1g1) conditions
    1g2) enactments
    1g3) decrees
    1g4) civil enactments prescribed by God


    It was a civil ordinance for all the women in Israel to observe the burning offering of Jephthah’s daughter. It was like a national holiday. The KJV says "custom" but the word is "choq" "ordinance” or “law". The commemoration of the girl's sacrifice was made into an ORDINANCE for all the women in Israel to observe in a 4 day yearly celebration. I am sure that the ordinance was issued by the "elders" of Israel that we are supposed to listen to and obey them. Even Jesus Christ said to obey and do all that the Pharisees (teachers of the Law) tell you. So the whole vow was a very sacred deal. Would you object your daughter from observing the yearly 4-day moed of a human sacrifice to Yahweh? It must have gone on for many years.

    I didn't say that Yahweh prompted Jephthah to sacrifice anyone, but the whole record implies that Jephthah was acting under the MIGHTY POWER of the Spirit of Yahweh! Now if you think that Jephthah did something improper on his own, then I wonder what good is it to be indwelled by all the MIGHTY POWER of the Spirit of Yahweh and still goof!

    I don't believe that I goofed that badly yet. Hey, Survivor, what do you think? Talking about child abuse! Using one’s own daughter for a burnt offering! How would you have prevented that?

    Anyway, Michael, I really believe that a lot of what we have in the Tanakh is not an infallible record. I thought that the NT had a lot of glitches, but I am finding out that the full Bible has a lot of glitches.

    I am sure that we are all searching for the truth. I can't overlook to agree with you and DeAnna,
    >>"DeAnna, in my understanding, true JEWs are those who take shelter in the name of Yahudah. No one is JEWish for genetic reasons. <<"

    Well, Thummin... we are of the same mind here. I too believe the Israelites are those who take shelter in the name (Power/authority) of YHWH (The Existing One).
    I am very happy to be in such a good company! Now I want to give you some documentation about it so you know where we are all coming from.

    Take Jacob. He is the first Israelite ever. Actually his name was changed to Israel. Jacob is so much like Jephthah! He bargained in a vow to the “MIGHTY ONES” (i.e. Elohim) – I wonder if he knew more about Elohim than we DARE to know today. Anyway, the point that I want to make is based on Jacob’s experience.

    Genesis 28:20-21 * Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If Elohim will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear so that I return safely to my father's house, then Yahweh will be my Elohim…”

    Jacob put Yahweh to the acid test! Unless Jacob had a solid response from Yahweh, Jacob would not trust in Yahweh. He made a vow to Yahweh. A vow is a solemn agreement in the Scriptures. Jacob personally and of his own free choice EMBRACED the Elohim of his grandpa Abraham only after putting him to the test. WE can all do the same thing! I have a secret desire in my heart known only to Elohim. If Elohim grants it to me then Yahweh will be my Elohim. In the meantime I just watch ‘n’ wait ‘n’ pray and so on… I don’t see anything wrong with that…

    Jacob didn’t go for the promises that Elohim made to Abraham. He wanted something tangible NOW! If Yahweh fails to deliver… Jacob would most likely keep searching for another Elohim who can deliver on a bargain… Did Yahweh favor Jacob as a result of the vow? Was Yahweh in search of clients to worship him? Was Jacob a disinterested worshipper? I don’t think so. We certainly think that Yahweh is more intelligent than that. But regardless of what we think, the record is clear on Jephthah and on Jacob. They both bargained and put Yahweh on the spot and they both won! Isn’t that a challenge? Wowww that opens so many windows of opportunity...!!!
    "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

  • #2
    Infallible?

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    STRANGER WRITES;

    I didn't say that Yahweh prompted Jephthah to sacrifice anyone, but the whole record implies that Jephthah was acting under the MIGHTY POWER of the Spirit of Yahweh! Now if you think that Jephthah did something improper on his own, then I wonder what good is it to be indwelled by all the MIGHTY POWER of the Spirit of Yahweh and still goof!

    I don't believe that I goofed that badly yet. Hey, Survivor, what do you think? Talking about child abuse! Using one’s own daughter for a burnt offering! How would you have prevented that?

    Anyway, Michael, I really believe that a lot of what we have in the Tanakh is not an infallible record. I thought that the NT had a lot of glitches, but I am finding out that the full Bible has a lot of glitches.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    ... I agree with you, Stranger. A lot of the tanakh is the work of an author's mind, his imagination put on paper. The story of Noah comes to mind. Who is the author who writes down this story and how has it come to be known by the tanakhs author? It's hard to imagine that this story can last from the time that only eight people were alive upon the earth. {Tsk, tsk ...} But such stories have value for other reasons. The author of this story has chosen the names for his characters, to match his reasoning. Those names mean, Expansion - Hot - and Name. There is a little reasoning going on here. Who settles the hot places? This is where Hams relatives settle. Who settles the other places? Jepheth fills in here. And who is the main character whose line that we will follow. Why it's Shem, who will discover through his ancestors to be, the name of YHWH. I doubt very much, that the story of Jephthah is even true. Yet we can argue the facts of the story as though it were. Not to say that daughters haven't been burned by zealous fathers, I'm sure that many have. On the question of whether a person can do wrong under the spirit of YHWH, I'm sure that many people have done many obscene things in the name of their (gods). YHWH can only be infallable when infallable men do not interpret his reasoning. You see Stranger, we really pretty much agree here, but from our own viewpoints. There is lots of infallibility were men (and women) live.

    Baruch hashem, ....Michael

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