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Incest And Other Illicit Sexual Relationships Revisited!

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  • Incest And Other Illicit Sexual Relationships Revisited!

    Hi Everyone,

    By now everyone should realize that war has broken out among the Tzaddikim. While the war revolves around sexual misconduct, the basic issue is one of leadership. Who do we follow in these matters? Who do we support? Do we support the abuser, or do we support the Elder who is guiding and directing the abuser and the other members of his flock?

    I am the Elder, and no one desired to follow my guidance so I left fellowship with the Tzaddikim. Right now, I view them as a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites, and I don't like them. Now, I am old and wise enough to realize that this is actually an indictment of my leadership. Normally, the flock can be no different than the shepherd who guides them. If sin exists within the Tzaddikim, it is because of leadership or is it because of the flock? Who stops the buck?

    This is my view of how this issue developed within the Tzaddikim. It should supply you with additional background information concerning what was related on the first thread. I wish I could say that I have changed the names to protect the innocent, but there are no innocent ones in this discussion as of yet. This account is actually taken from a private e-mail from me to DeAnna. This e-mail has been edited, and the names have be changed to pseudonyms which follow the pattern set by Rovivrus on the parent thread:
    Thank you very much for your e-mail encouragement and inquiry. It has been a very stressful and difficult time for all of us since my daughters, Rovivrus and "L" came forward with the information about my brother's sexual molestation of them. Elder "X" was confronted by Elders ImAHebrew and Hyssop, and he confessed to his molestation of "L". He denied that he sexually molested "B", my oldest daughter, and Rovivrus.

    DeAnna, my brother actually engaged in sex play sessions in which he used a vibrator on "L" until she experienced an orgasm. She was nine years old at the time. "X" also used the vibrator on "B" (now 30 years old) who is two years older than "L". He also used the vibrator on Rovivrus (now 25 years old). "B" could remember also experiencing orgasms. "B" does not think that Uncle "X" knew when she was experiencing an orgasm because "B" did not actively or openly participate as did "L". Rovivrus' memories are less vivid because she was younger, but she does remember or have a sense of learning how to masturbate due to Uncle "X's" use of a vibrator to massage her body. Rovivrus grew up thinking that she was cursed because of the struggle that went on in her mind over masturbation. I know that feeling because I was taught how to masturbate at age nine by a cousin twice my age.

    After Elder "X" was confronted about his molestation, he was very repentant. He came to our home and asked my wife and myself for forgiveness which we did grant him. He was restored to fellowship with our assembly. During this time period, I myself questioned my brother "X" concerning his own daughters. I can remember asking him why he targeted my daughters while leaving his own alone? In my heart, I did not understand so I wanted to know. He denied any molestation of his own daughters saying that such activity was too close to home. I accepted his explanation. Subsequently, his oldest daughter came forward with claims that he had also used the vibrator on her. She went to her father and confronted him and told him that she wanted him to leave his home for the safety and protection of her youngest sister. She also wanted her mother to divorce him because she knew in her heart that there was a time in her relationship with her father in which "X" did exalt her over her mother. We all can remember "X" elevating his daughter over his wife. "X" would not comply with his daughter's request to leave the home so she filed criminal charges against her father. "X" continues to this day to deny any sexual molestation of his own daughters. At first, I did not believe his daughter because of the adamant nature in which "X" professed his innocence concerning his own daughters. So, I supported "X" against his daughter and against my own daughters who also went to the authorities with their stories. I was angry with them and felt that they were behaving terribly by going to the authorities.

    Once the authorities became involved, both of our families were investigated by the Division of Family Services. The children were all questioned to see if they wanted to relate any experience. My daughter, "A" (now seventeen), was interviewed. She related in her interview that Uncle "X" had used the vibrated down her buttocks. She has not admitted to experiencing orgasm. My other daughter, "E" (nineteen), admits to us that Uncle "X" used the vibrator on her, but it was no big deal in her mind. After "A's" interview, she no longer felt comfortable about being around her uncle so my wife and I told her that we would take her to some other assembly. This is how we first began attending services apart from the Tzaddikim. Everyone else in the assembly save perhaps for Hyssop's wife has basically circled the wagons around "X". They seem committed to protecting him against the authorities.

    Gradually, once I was away from dealing with "X" on a weekly personal basis, I began to realize that I had been in denial concerning him. I at first believed him over his daughter because I in my heart did not think that this pattern of behavior could exist in a believer. My daughter "A" coming forward was very instrumental in changing my mind about "X's" guilt. I now believe him to be a child molester and pedophile.

    I hope that this background information better enables you to understand Rovivrus' coming forward on the Lo Ammi Forum. If I controlled the forum, DeAnna, then I would always be there, but the forum is controlled by the Tzaddikim who have chosen to support an adult member over my children and niece simply because they are not believers. I do want all to know however that the Tzaddikim have graciously given us opportunity to write about these things. I have no recourse save to let the information come forward, and then to show my support by both remaining silent for a time and speaking openly at other times with the hope that my brothers do come to repentance. I generally do not burn bridges, DeAnna, but I am very disappointed with the Tzaddikim. Like you, I understand that it will take time. You know that I have a great love for the Tzaddikim and for the forum and for all the brothers and sisters that I have met through the forums. I need you all much more than you need me.
    Blessings to all of you, and I do mean all. Have a happy Sabbath Day, Everyone!

    Sincerely, Spying
    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

  • #2
    The Course Of Our Lives!

    Hi Everyone,

    When I was nine years old, I went to visit my great Aunt and Uncle with my parents. They had one son. My cousin was seventeen. We were playing in his basement bedroom together. I don't remember what we were playing. My cousin started fondling my penis. It felt good. I experienced an erection. I had absolutely no idea what erections were all about, but at this point, I knew that we were engaging in activity which was wrong. This in not the sort of activity that children accomplish in front of parents, and every child knows this to be true. It is always hidden from parents unless of course the parents are involved.

    As my cousin continued to stroke my penis, he had almost a puzzled look about himself. He went on an on, then all of a sudden I began to experience a very strange feeling in my penis which began to frighten me. I cried out to my cousin to stop. He told me that this is what should happen and continued on. I experienced my first orgasm. I was too young. I had no ejaculation of semen. I was too young. I had no pubic hair. I was too young. My cousin then exposed his own penis to me and asked me to stroke him. I can remember thinking how large his penis seemed to be. After awhile, my cousin got up from the bed, and he went into the bathroom closing the door. I understood later what my cousin went into the bathroom to do. It was perhaps not even an hour later in which I masturbated for the first time in my life.

    I had two very good childhood friends, and I don't know exactly why, but I shared my experience with one of them. He told me he had learned about masturbation also from someone older. We began to experiment and experience together. We engaged in mutual masturbation. This continued for a number of years. Finally, I experienced my first emission of semen. As I continued to masturbate, my mother, bless her heart, noticed the dried semen on my bed sheets. My father approached me and told me that the bible says that spilling one's seed on the ground is wrong, and that masturbation could lead to blindness.

    There had always been guilt and a certain amount of shame associated in my mind over masturbation. Kids instinctively know that masturbation is not something that one accomplishes in front of parents. These things are done in secret. What my father told me confirmed my guilt and shame, but it did little to deter my practice. So, I am someone who has lived with a lot of shame and guilt in my life.

    My experiences with my boyhood friend continued until I was about sixteen. There is very little of a sexual nature that we did not do with each other. The reason why I was able to break away from my homosexual relationship with my friend was because I wanted to become a Lutheran Minister. This required that I attend a Lutheran High School away from my home and community. Patterns of activity are only broken by stopping them. By the grace of YAH those circumstances in my life allowed me to change a pattern of behavior which has saved my life.

    My friend went to the Army. He was stationed in Europe. After he was discharged, he stayed in Europe for a number of years. You see, my friend became a very aggressive homosexual. He was not interested in women. This is a person that I loved and still love. When he came home from Europe, we would meet occasionally. I never felt comfortable around him because of my feelings toward him. Basically, I did not trust myself around him. One day I heard that he was sick. My friend had AIDS. He was among the first to become ill. My friend died in his early thirties. You know something, he was blind when he died. How about that? You see, masturbation does in some circumstances lead to blindness:
    Rom 1:27
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (KJV)
    What is it that was just recompense that homosexuals received in themselves for their activity? Something was also happening two thousand years ago for Paul to write the above words.

    Stranger, sex is a very powerful drive and force within all of us. Whenever that drive is unleashed, how do you know the path that it will follow? How would you like to actually be the older person who did molest my boyhood friend? His molestation set him on a course of activity that led to his own death as well as the death of many other men. At the very least, molestation can led to a lifetime of continued shame and guilt. I, myself, know that my relationship with my friend helped to confirm his homosexuality in his life. So, I do also bear some responsibility in his death, but I am thankful that I am not the older person who introduced my friend to sex. Such a person has a lot to answer for and a great number to give answer to!

    Sincerely, Spying
    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Dear Spying,

      Posting on this topic might not be for me, if so, I would be happy to leave it alone. It sounds like you have been through alot with your church and your family. I am sorry to hear about the events that have taken place, and my prayers are with any sincere actions you might take. I do not know much of what has taken place, except that on this thread and a little of what I have read on another.

      Who do we follow in these matters? Who do we support? Do we support the abuser, or do we support the Elder who is guiding and directing the abuser and the other members of his flock? I am the Elder, and no one desired to follow my guidance so I left fellowship with the Tzaddikim.


      I notice that you are the head or leader of your group. I don't know exactly what actions you wanted to take, but I can assume that they were authoritative actions. I could only hope that you are not expecting the Fellow members of Tzaddikim to follow you if they feel you are wrong. While you are the Elder, we can only assume that your judgement may be clouded for obvious reasons. This is not a reason to disregard any thoughts you have on this matter, by no means. That is just a thought that perhaps you should consider. You mentioned that your judgement was clouded previously. Perhaps now it is those who fellowship with 'abuser' have the clouded judgement.

      Right now, I view them as a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites, and I don't like them.
      Everyone else in the assembly save perhaps for Hyssop's wife has basically circled the wagons around "X". They seem committed to protecting him against the authorities.
      Are you saying that the members of Tzaddikim have decided to lie about this issue to the authorities? Is the action that you wish to take a legal authoritative one that might bring 'abuser' to justice? Forgive me, I didn't read all of the last thread and probaly missed something, it was quite long. If I might express my personal opinion, this person (abuser) should have legal action taken against him, and should not be hidden. If it is your children, I see no reason for the Tzaddikim to be involved in a decision that you would make regarding this.

      I would perhaps like to correct you on a statement that hit a sour note with me:

      I wish I could say that I have changed the names to protect the innocent, but there are no innocent ones in this discussion as of yet.


      I do believe that you live in America, which I should say no more. This is not in my moral base, perhaps yours however. One question I would like to ask is why is the Tzaddikim in any way involved in a decision concerning your family?

      Sincerely,
      Parachute
      Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Authoritative Action!

        Hi Parachute,

        Welcome to this discussion and welcome to the Lo Ammi Forum. In this particular circumstance, I like the pseudonym that you do bring to this issue. Will you be a parachute for us? Your response is measured. It carries weight. May you be blessed in your endeavors.

        While I personally have been dealing with this issue since the fall of 2000, we are now entering a crisis point that carries with it considerable danger for my brother (Uncle X) and for the whole flock. I am a shepherd. Shepherds protect the flock. A grand jury will meet on this issue this Thursday. My niece has been called to testify. My sister-in-law has been called to testify. As a shepherd, my motive all along has been to protect all members concerned in this issue. Initially, my motive as a shepherd was not so much to protect the children involved because they are not members of the Tzaddikim. Nonetheless, since the beginning, I have worn three hats in this issue: The hat of a pastor, the hat of a brother both spiritual and physical, and the hat of a father. It is difficult to wear all three hats at the same time. Allow me to give you an example:

        I know and absolutely agree with you concerning your comments about clouded judgment. Initially, my judgment was clouded against my children in favor of my brother. If that was the case with me, then how could I stand in judgment against the Tzaddikim when they are doing nothing more than following in my footsteps. This recognition was very instrumental in helping me to make the decision to leave fellowship with the Tzaddikim. Everything would then for all practical purposes be in their hands. They would be forced to make decisions. You cannot make proper decisions without knowledge and understanding. I have a faith that sincere people will make the proper decisions given time and proper knowledge. The Tzaddikim are sincere people. So, my decision to leave the Tzaddikim was authoritative. Shepherds make authoritative decisions, but shepherds must be very careful in making them.

        I also made the authoritative decision to leave fellowship in order to wear the hat of a father. Initially, in my mind, all the hats were equal. A good friend of mind this past Sabbath pointed out to me that the hat of a father should take priority over any of the other hats. My daughters all along have felt the same way. They have told me that they expected me to rise up and to myself report my brother to the authorities seeking his prosecution. That would have been the proper action if I only had to wear one hat, but I have other hats to wear. Actually, writing on the forums has served to help me to more aggressively wear the hat of a father in their support. Before I started writing on the forums, I felt for all practical purposes that it was the Tzaddikim against the world. I viewed my older daughters as of the world. Now, I view them again as my children, and I hope I am acting as a good father and wearing the hat of a father better in their eyes.

        The hat of a brother requires that I takes certain steps with my brother. The Tzaddikim believe in individual accountability and responsibility. My wife and I placed conditions on our forgiveness. I personally instructed my brother to get rid of the vibrator. I never again wanted to see a vibrator of any kind in his hand. We required that he agree to seek counseling to resolve his issues, and we required that he do whatever is necessary to satisfy our daughters or make up for his wronging of them. These my brother either agreed to accomplish or made no objection to accomplishing. To this day, none as far as I am concerned have been accomplished. All of these conditions were made known to the Tzaddikim.

        After the authorities became involved, I implored and encouraged my brother in the presence of the Tzaddikim to himself go to the authorities and admit to what he has done wrong. That action would satisfy my daughters and his daughter. This action my brother refused to follow. Under Messiah, I have no recourse but to withhold my fellowship from my brother until he does what is necessary. This also was an authoritative decision, and it is my own decision. I did not initially expect the Tzaddikim to follow in my footsteps. That will take time.

        Now, Parachute, here is the real danger to my flock. The civil authorities cannot solve this problem. A criminal trial cannot solve this problem. Whether my brother is declared guilty or innocent, does not solve this problem. After a trial, there is a great danger of hearts being hardened on both sides beyond repair. My brother is the only person in the world who can prevent that from happening and also in the process preserve his own heart. So, it is a critical time, and I would appreciate your insight and prayers. I know that I have only written to give you some insight about how I look upon the authoritative action of a shepherd. I shall endeavor if I can get back to it to later explain to you what I meant by my "no innocent" comment. Again, welcome to this thread and to this forum.

        Sincerely, Spying
        The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Lighten your load.

          ...Spying, I want to weigh in here on the problems that you are forced to face and deal with. Sex is an emotional subject for most people. Dealing with it clouds the mind. I think that you need to consider this delema, as a matter of law {breaking the rules}, and not as a sexual affair. The first comandment put forward by YHWH, to Adam and Eve, was to have sex. Be fruitful and multiply, he said. If YHWH can command sex, need we call it sin? I do not mean to imply that your brother isn't guilty of his misconduct. He is. But it is easier to think of this situation as a matter of breaking the rules. YHWH gives us law, not to curse us, but to give us a way to live with each other as well as living close to GD-lyness. We are not cursed for minding the rules. We are cursed for breaking the law. YHWH has no law against having sex with children. (not to imply that having sex with children is ok) Children are protected through their parents honor. There is honor involved. YHWH has laws against having sex within the family. A person is not guilty for having sex, but rather for transgressing the law given to protect the peace of the community. I know that, if you put seven children on their own islands, without any sexual knowledge of their own, assuming that they survive to adulthood, they will each learn some type of sexual behavior on their own. This implies that sexuality is natural. This also gives us permission to deal with this transgression, as a matter of violating trust {honor} and breaking the law of the family, as well as breaking the law of the land. It will lighten up your load if you deal with the subject in this way. I think that you will be able to understand righteous judgement better if your not thinking, {sex, sex, sex}. I realize that paralysis sets in at times, when the transgression is sexual in nature. We all know the wrongs that were done, as well as many of the reasons that the matter must be dealt with. I wish you peace in your family and a restoration of the honor that made you feel secure in your lives. I believe that this breach in conduct is largely a family matter and that the family must work through it together. You need to know that sexual transgressions are common, and that you are not alone in dealing with them.

          ....Michael

          Comment


          • #6
            Dear Spying,

            Thank you for the seat. Parachute I am, and as you know, they come in many shapes, sizes and colors. Personaly, I don't give a damn as long as it opens. Now and again they don't. Thummim has a good point, this is an issue of right and wrong, regardless of the action. This is a serious note, which should be treaded upon lightly.

            These my brother either agreed to accomplish or made no objection to accomplishing. To this day, none as far as I am concerned have been accomplished. All of these conditions were made known to the Tzaddikim.
            Tzaddikim you say are aware of the conditions. Do they feel that 'abuser' has walked the right path in this case? I would say that they have no place in this, and it is between you and your brother, who is in your debt. Since this does not seem to be possible, then only integrety and honesty on the part of Tzaddikim and yourself will suffice. I feel the problem is that someone is trying to protect another. Sounds that the Tzaddikim are trying to protect your brother from you (authorities). I would only remind all involved that even Moses will be judged next to the low man on the totem pole. This happens to bring me to a point:

            the forum is controlled by the Tzaddikim who have chosen to support an adult member over my children and niece simply because they are not believers.


            Spying, is this true? I mean, do they admit/agree with this? I only ask because of the biased nature that can acompany an issue such as this. If this is true Spying, this is sick. It makes me want to vomit. This is a case of right and wrong such as all cases. Not believer/unbeliever. What someone believes should not be any part of this. When Christ sees a sinner harmed, he has compassion. When he sees a rightous man sin, he judges that man rightously.

            Proverbs 16:10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.
            11 A just weight and balance are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are his work.
            Proverb 20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.


            Assuming that what you say is true, I feel that the Tzaddikim need to take a good look inside. It is hard, very hard to realize that there is so much more to a person than simple quick judgements based on an image one might have of a person. After knowing a person, this becomes that much harder if that image is shattered. Only YHVH knows the heart. Until then, I would only hope that all use a blindfold while judging. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you Spying, as we peek into the souls of our fellow man.

            Sincerely,
            Parachute
            Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

            Comment


            • #7
              Matthew 18!

              Hi Everyone,

              I received this e-mail last night from Hyssop which I have decided to make public. Last Sabbath I personally called ImAHebrew to inform him of the grand jury proceedings (in case the Tzaddikim did not know) and to inform him of my intent to pursue this issue publicly; hence, my first post on this thread. ImAHebrew informed me that both I and the girls would suffer if the case goes to trial (as if we have suffered nothing as of yet). I informed him that I would testify concerning the things that I know and that I would not hold back. (I have been summoned to testify before the grand jury.) I told him that now was the time to act. He informed me that any upcoming criminal trial defense required that the Tzaddikim do not publicly discuss this issue on the forum. He questioned me concerning the wider assembly that I had previously threatened to take this whole issue before. I had made this threat because Hyssop had previously accused me of not following Matthew 18 according to the letter of what Messiah commands. ImAHebrew wanted to know who it was that I intended to air this issue before. I told him that I did not know, but that I was going to aggressively look for someone. Thummim and Parachute are a good start in my mind, but I do hope that Messiah does send more to judge this issue. Here is Hyssop's e-mail. The e-mail has been slightly edited to remove first names. Other than that the e-mail speaks for itself:
              Spying,

              I am not posting this e-mail publicly, because you have taught me through scripture to speak to a brother privately and then with one or two witnesses before bringing a perceived wrong before the church as a whole. I will not publicly air your tresspasses without following this process. I cannot express how sorrowful it makes me to see that you no longer follow that approach, as evident by your past actions and, now, your post on the Forum on January 5, 2002. It is really unbelievable how much our relationship has disintegrated since this past Passover, and I mourn the lost fellowship of a spiritual brother and sister of nearly two decades. I feel compelled to write to you, first, because of your apparent loss of love for the brethren and, second, because I am afraid that my silence regarding some of the statements that you've made might be misunderstood as my concurrence that they are factual.

              In your private e-mail to Deanna, you stated that you "have a great love for the Tzaddikim" and yet you stated in your post that you view them as "a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites, and I don't like them." I believe that it was you who once taught me about a "root of bitterness" that can take a member out of the church. My brother, I pray that you some day understand that most of those you left behind are only trying to do what they feel is the right thing to do. Please do not let your love grow cold.

              In your post, you also referred to a "war" within the Tzaddikim. The basic issue, you said, is: "Who do we follow in these matters?" Should the sheep follow the shepherd? The rational answer is, "Yes, the sheep should follow the shepherd." My question to you is: "Should a shepherd EVER leave the sheep to fend for themselves?" I think the obvious answer would be, "No, he should not." You were the shepherd of our little flock for almost twenty years . . . and the sheep followed you. When my wife and I spoke to you and your wife last September, you stated that you left the church so that "those of us left behind would reach a right decision regarding what should be done." You stated in your post of January 5 that the flock would not follow your guidance, so you left. According to my recollection, neither of these statements are true. Do you remember our visit to your house after you'd announced your intention to leave? I was upset about it. I didn't like it. You told me, "This is just a Sabbatical; we'll be back. We just need some time apart to go out and evangelize as our friends from Canada do." At the time, you also said that you felt that the brother who you now state should have been cast out needed the Tzaddikim more than you. Do you not remember these words? Did you ever suggest that there was a decision for your flock to make? No, you didn't. Did you tell us that we were not following our shepherd's guidance? No, you didn't. Now you stand off afar and state that the flock you left behind made the wrong choices and must repent. If you felt there were "wolves" in the flock, why did you not stand and fight? Instead, you abandoned your flock. You are the one waging war among the Tzaddikim.

              In accordance with Matthew 18, I have already approached you regarding your unwillingness to believe that our Master can and will direct this little flock to make the right decisions. (Mat 18:20 KJV) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. If you truly believe this, why did you not think that the Tzaddikim had two or three within that could gather together in Yashua's name to listen to you and make the appropriate decision? You claim to have followed Matthew 18, but you did not. Our last "every morning" telephone conversation ended when you refused to bring your issues with your brother before your church of twenty years, in accordance with the principles about which you preached for such a long time. Oh, how I wish that you'd have trusted that Yashua would lead you and your little flock to do his will together.

              All of us make mistakes. We can only do the best we know how. I'm sure that you feel you are doing the right thing. However, it is you, dear brother, that needs to realize that you've followed the wrong course of action. You deserted your responsibility as shepherd, and you need to repent of your lack of faith.

              I do love you and your family. I pray for healing for all and take comfort in the scripture: "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

              Hyssop
              And I also love you and all the Tzaddikim, Hyssop. As far as I am concerned, an unbiased Bet Din is required to judge this issue. Under Jewish Law, the minimum number required to establish a Bet Din is ten men. The Tzaddikim do not approach this number; hence, we do have need to evangelize. If, on the other hand, we are willing to include women as potential judges, then I can see where potentially we all could have settled this issue amongst ourselves. Are you willing to accept our wives as judges in this matter? (I am not implying by this question that women can or cannot be judges.)

              Sincerely, Spying
              The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                shalom Spying

                Dear brother my prayers are with you!

                There is one thing I have learned from you, that you are always one step ahead, if not, one.
                I know it is because of your connection with Yah. (please teach me or share how:-)

                These are some serious things going on within the family.
                But I do bring this up to call,
                1CORINTHIANS 6:1-8

                the core of it striking me is verse 3.
                3.Dont you realize that we Netzariim will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disagreements here on earth.

                I pray that all goes well with the Tzaddikim AND your family.
                Yah will bless!
                I know I dont know of ALLthat goes on- but I agree with hyssop.
                "all things come out to the good"

                remeber what you taught me about "evil", BY Messiah will in you. you and DeAnna taught me that He was and is creator of it, then His word says that all comes out to the good of the Elect, He turns curses into blessings.
                I agree- He is doing a work in all of you.
                Your brother, I pray that he does repent of his acts! However, who knows- he probably did, but afraid to face the people? but, that would mean that he is prideful.

                shalom brother, I am with you, there, though not present , but in spirit.
                Antonio-AntotiYah
                ONLY IN MESSIAH KRISTOS DO WE FIND OUR REAL LIFE, AND THIS REALITY AND TRUE, REAL LIFE IS AT THE PLACE WHERE YeHSooH SITS OF HONOR AND GLORY!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear Hyssop, Spying and All:

                  As I have been reading the latest posts on this thread, I have begun to wonder. I don’t conclude that it was Spying’s duty to instruct or make decisions regarding the Tzaddikim and the issue at hand. I feel that the focus and the pressure is being put on the wrong man.

                  For those who don’t understand the depth of this struggle:

                  The Tzaddikim was a five family church (so five men have preached to and lead the church for 20+ years). Two (X and H) of the 5 members have sexually abused the children of the church, so then we are left with three who must “attend” to the situation. One of those three, Spying, is a blood brother of X. X molested all five of Spying’s daughters. This leaves us with two men, Hyssop and ImAHebrew. Hyssop’s daughter has not reported any abuse by X or H, so far. ImAHebrew’s daughters were both abused by the other abuser (H). Due to these circumstances, it seemed to me--months back--that Hyssop would be the best suited person to regulate the decisions regarding the action that the Tzadikim would take. Reason being, Spying, ImAHebrew, and X are blood brothers, so things were really hitting very close to home for all of them. I do not suggest that this is or was “easier” for Hyssop to deal with, but he seemed to be kind of a neutral person in all of it. I am not suggesting that Hyssop was appointed to a leadership role, I’m just saying that myself, personally, considered him to be the regulator. My mom felt the same way. Further reason being, he was the most compassionate and peaceful.

                  I know that I was personally waiting for Hyssop to instruct X and H to leave the church, at least temporarily and conditionally. I had no idea Hyssop, that you were expecting my dad to instruct you or guide you. At the time, his head was spinning. I feel he was doing the best he could do with the news that his brother had molested his daughters. So, please do not hold him responsible for the fact that the Tzadikim continues to fellowship with two molesters who have not been held accountable for their actions. Each person has the right to make their own decisions. I’m not sure about you, Hyssop, but I can pretty much guarantee that if my dad would have “instructed” ImAHebrew to follow, he would have been met with much resistance.

                  Furthermore, why is it that X should not have been expected to “stand up” and make some decisions? Why is it that the church stood by and accepted that fact that he was refusing to discuss his actions? I would like to know one thing that he has done to compensate or reconcile any of his wrongdoing? I would like to know, Hyssop, if you sent X a really long e-mail about what he has not done right. How are you so quick to reprimand Spying when you have required nothing of X? I mean, is this what this church has come to? If you are going to study, debate, and accuse--do it on the topic of child sexual abuse, not on how a brother should have “handled” it when he found out. None of us have done this before, it is a new experience for all.

                  Hyssop, please recall the conversation at the park with the four of you. It seems that Spying was basically being officially charged with not following Matthew 18. Well, I would just like to say--take yourself back a few years before we knew of any of this. Did you ever think, back then, that one of the brethren of our church would molest a child? But most of all, did you ever think that you would be more upset with brother who’s children were molested than you would be with the one who did the molesting? Would you have ever guessed that if the brother who’s children were molested left the church, that you would choose not to follow?
                  Well, I would not have guessed it in a million years.

                  I’m really upset right now. I know Hyssop, that you know in your heart what the right thing to do is. I believe you have known since the night we all sat in L’s basement. I sense that you have felt like you are holding what’s left of the church together, and you pretty much are--I guess. I’m sorry for the position that you are in, and I will continue to pray for you and Aunt ****.

                  Love,
                  Rovivrus
                  "Recognizing the impersonality of law, the survivor is to some degree relieved of the personal burden of battle. It is the law, not she, that must prevail."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Leadership!

                    Hi Thummim,

                    Thank you for pulling up a chair to listen to this issue! When I contemplate the role of leadership in my mind, I know that leadership must be willing to take the hardest road. I know that this is true through the leadership of Messiah Yahushua. Leaders must be willing to carry their own weight as well as help others bear their own load.

                    I know that I have read in the Talmud of a Sage who frequented the houses of prostitutes. I have wondered how this is possible? I know that this was not the attitude of the Apostle Paul. There is little doubt in my mind that Paul would have opposed your unemotional attitude about sexual relations between adults and children. Do you not believe, Thummim, that the two become one through sexual intercourse? If YAH has ordained that the two become one, then it would seem to me that one of the most fundamental of responsibilities is to guard and protect our children until they can willingly enter into such binding relationships. Talk about bearing a burden! Do you have any daughters, Thummim? YAH has blessed my wife and myself with five beautiful daughters. It seems to me that I have been asked twice now in a marriage ceremony concerning who it is that giveth this daughter in marriage. Is that not the right of the parents to give their daughters in marriage? If I, as a father, should take that right for myself by molesting my daughters, then I have nothing to give away. The two have become one. If I, as an adult, secretly take that right from a father through molesting his children, then do I not steal from both father and daughter?

                    YAH has ordained sex in marriage, Thummim. YAH gave Eve to Adam and Adam to Eve. I have a sense from your post that you believe that YAH gave SEX outside of marriage. Am I reading you correctly?

                    Concerning the Law. YAH gave it. It is both a blessing and a curse! So, YAH gave a curse! Now, I know that this is something that we have been working to settle with each other. I know that in time, we will!

                    I want to thank you again, Thummim, for your willingness to take a seat and judge this most difficult of issues.

                    Sincerely, Spying
                    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Judging The Heart!

                      Hi Parachute,

                      You are most welcome! Nonetheless, the seats at this table are not mine to give. Yahushua has sent you here, and for that, I am most grateful.

                      Why do I have a sense that you knew that I was seeking judgment on this issue? What I say now I say for AntotiYAH's sake: If I am ever one step ahead of anyone, it is because of Yahushua. I have no sense from Yahushua, Parachute, of being one step ahead of you.

                      As you can see from Hyssop's e-mail, it is possible that it may not be true for all that the daughters have not been believed simply because they are not believers. I know that this was initially the case for me when my niece came forward with her claims concerning my brother's abuse of her. I was very willing to believe a believer, my brother, and his denials over a non-believer, my niece. Hence, I did initially support my brother against my niece.

                      I do not believe that this was the case for Hyssop. Before I left fellowship with the Tzaddikim, I had a sense that Hyssop would have supported me in a decision against ImAHebrew who adamantly does not believe the allegations of our niece, but what solution would that have been? Our small flock would have been split right down the middle. That would have been a Pyrrhic victory to say the least. You see, Parachute, it is the heart that we must somehow judge in settling this dispute. We must like Solomon be willing to look into the heart and determine if any are lying.

                      Again, you are most welcome here.

                      Sincerely, Spying
                      The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Solomons Wisdom

                        ...Spying, lying accompanies purpose. If the niece is lying, she would have a reason for her lies to exist. There likely, would be no collaboration for her story.

                        And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken. Eccl. 4:12

                        This is said to be Solomons wisdom.

                        Shalom, ....Michael

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Spying, Hyssop and All:

                          I just can’t, for the life of me, understand why it was Spying’s job to bring with him witnesses regarding X’s abuse. X did not abuse Spying. X abused ME, and my sisters and my cousins. Funny thing is, when we first brought the information to the church, at my older sister’s house--three of us arranged the meeting. Myself, my older sister and X’s oldest daughter. Not only did we have one, we had two, we had three, and now we have even more. It is not Spying’s job, or Hyssop’s job, or ImAHebrew’s job to find witnesses. They were not the ones bringing the accusations forward. They were not the ones who were sexually abused. I understand that we (the children) are no longer in the church, but we were when the abuse occurred.

                          I hope anyone who reads this situation can see through it. The witnesses, the Matthew 18, the Shepard not leading his flock--It’s all an excuse!

                          Also, Hyssop, during that entire email to my dad, you did not even once mention the issue at hand--Child Sexual Abuse. Has X’s lawyer gotten a hold of you?

                          Rovivrus
                          "Recognizing the impersonality of law, the survivor is to some degree relieved of the personal burden of battle. It is the law, not she, that must prevail."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            KJV Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which
                            went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
                            25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
                            27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

                            28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
                            :29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

                            4202 pornei,a porneia {por-ni'-ah} • from 4203; TDNT - 6:579,918; n f • AV - fornication 26; 26 • 1) illicit sexual intercourse 1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. 1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12 2) metaph. the worship of idols 2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

                            Now taking in consideration the three forbidden things before it;
                            "idols... blood... "things strangled"... "fornication". Is it not most likely that they are speaking of eating things sacrificed to idols rather then sexual intersourse? Just wanted to point that out, before going on.

                            The word "Fornication" translated in the KJV from the Hebrew is
                            actually "prostitution". And the root is "temple prostitute". Which is exactly what many churches, and religions "do"... is "prostitute the gospel" or the truth. Which is exactly what offering up sacrifices to idols is; "prostitution" of the spirit... payment rendered! and there is no truth in it. no salvation.

                            Here is the thing... nothing outside of the grieving heart, will "mend" the greiving heart, until the greiving heart forgives. "forgiveness" is the "only thing" that CAN and "Does" heal a greiving heart.
                            I know this is not an easy thing... and there is no question of "guilt".
                            unfortunately we are "all guilty" of breaking the Law of Yah and the Law of Moses, and if we are guilty of breaking one, we are guilty of them all.
                            So it really doesn't "matter" who is guilty of what... that fact remains that we are all guilty. so the pointing of the finger simply has no bearing on the healing process... of the greived heart.

                            "Forgiveness". is the only thing that makes a broken heart whole.
                            There is NO other way. (that I know of)
                            And I tell you true, if anyone were to ask Yah, to cause their love to be greater then their pain, and to "grant them" a forgiving heart. It will be granted them.

                            Would I allow, or have knowledge of my brother being alone in the precense of another child. No... I would probably do all I could to protect him and that child from further temptation.

                            I would do my best to "loose the wicked bands".
                            do I forgive my brother? of course I do. I not only forgive him, but I clothe him.
                            For I saw my brother naked. And through Yahs perfect purpose, and plan, he is clothed. I give him to Yah. I say; He is in Yahs hands. I even pray for mine enemy, and ask that their heart be turned unto Him, that they be my enemy no more. How much more so my brother?

                            We must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, unloose the wicked
                            bands, undo the heavy burdens, and take away the pointing of the finger. This... is the law of Yah. It is the law for all. Even if you have never picked up a bible.

                            "Forgive that ye may be..."
                            "turn the cheek"
                            "give to all who ask, and turn none away"
                            "judge not, lest ye be..."
                            "if forced to go one mile, go two..."
                            "If they take your coat, give them your cloak as well..."

                            what goes around, comes around...
                            you get what you give...
                            you reap what you sow...

                            all these are "laws" that all man must come to know, wheather they have religion or not.

                            "Mercy for mercy" is the law of Yah.

                            Zechariah 8:11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith Yah 12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

                            13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the
                            heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.
                            14 For thus saith YAH of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
                            15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem(City of peace) and to the house of Judah(praise Yah): fear ye not.
                            16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the
                            truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates: 17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith Yah.

                            Isaiah 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
                            :4 NONE calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

                            9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice
                            overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.

                            (remember... this is everyone. this is "Israel, the chosen one".)

                            :12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;

                            14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

                            15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

                            16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
                            17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
                            18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his
                            adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
                            19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of Yah shall lift up a standard against him.

                            20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion(parched place), and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob(heel bearer), saith Yah.

                            :21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith YAH; My
                            spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith YAH, from henceforth and for ever.
                            Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of YAH is risen upon thee.
                            2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but YAH shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
                            :3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

                            Isaiah 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

                            60:7 All the flocks of Kedar("dark") shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth("heights") shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar,
                            and > I < will glorify the house of my glory.


                            60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
                            11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings(rulership/judgement) may be brought.

                            Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come
                            bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow
                            themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of Yah, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
                            15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I YAH am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

                            18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor
                            destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

                            19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: But Yah shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
                            20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

                            Why?
                            Because when I was naked, you clothed me.
                            when I was hungry, you fed me.
                            when I was sick, you visited me.
                            when I was in prison you came in unto me.

                            That... is why. And it is also "how".

                            all my love,
                            d
                            "At that day
                            shall a man look to his Maker,
                            and his eyes shall have respect
                            to the Holy One of Israel."
                            Isaiah 17:7

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Dear Spying,

                              I first off want to say...this is a mess. Before I go any further, I want to now if this is against the courts policy to discuss this publicly. If so, I think all parties should stop. I will leave that before I write again.

                              The only issue that I will adress again is the judgement of a non believer. I was once a non believer. Perhaps the differential judgement of non believers has stopped. Or perhaps a party has a right to think one is lying. This justification should not be on the basis of being a believer.

                              2 Corinthians 11
                              13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
                              14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
                              15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
                              Only a devil would cover and claim himself to be holy. Only then, could he be evil. If he were to say "I am a devil", then there is light in him, for he spoke the truth.

                              The Jews did not like Samaritians. They were viewed as evil and not worthy:

                              John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
                              Only a Samaritian could have made this story complete:

                              Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,


                              I am sorry if I don't discuss more for now, but the first tidbit that was brought forth, needs to be thought about I think. There are alot of judgements and pieces of the puzzle that need to be thought about in this. I understand it is hard to forgive, and even harder when things don't seem to be working out. The answer is simple. So simple. It is not easy however. Honesty is the only thing that will work. Honesty with eachother and with yourselves. Judge yourself before you judge.

                              Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
                              I don't consider judging or punishment evil by the way.

                              Sincerely,
                              Parachute
                              Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

                              Comment

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