Is all Israel saved? (Romans 11:26)

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

Fundamental to the faith of the Tzaddikim is our belief that the whole of mankind did sacrifice or slay Messiah Yahushua through their sin. This was accomplished according to the requirements of the Torah of Moses. According to the administration of this Torah (Messiah died according to the Scriptures, 1 Corinthians 15:3), it is also the belief of the Tzaddikim that YAH was able through Messiah to turn this sacrifice back upon mankind itself. While it is not presently my purpose to write about the mechanics of how this all occurred, it is sufficient to note that the death of this present world did indeed spiritually occur in the death of Messiah. The Apostle Paul understood that he himself was crucified with Messiah (Galatians 2:20), and he further intimates that the world itself is also crucified through the cross of Messiah (Galatians 6:14). Of course, this crucifixion of the world also leads to the death of the world (2 Corinthians 5:14). Believe us, Messiah did not die so that this sinful world could continue to live as is commonly supposed. Otherwise, how could Paul write and speak about these things as actually happening? Looking around with our physical eyes, we see a world that appears to be very much alive, so what is Paul getting at? According to the perspective of YAH, in Messiah this world is dead. This world died with Messiah. Accordingly, this world has already been judged and executed according to the inner workings of the Torah (John 12:31-32). These are spiritual happenings which must be viewed and understood with spiritual and not physical eyes. Whose eyes? You and I have physical eyes. So, surely not our eyes! In Paul's thinking the only human who is presently alive is Messiah (Romans 6:6-8, Galatians 2:20). Therefore, if we as physical men begin once again to understand these things, is this not because we possess the mind and eyes of Messiah through whom we live and think and see (1 Corinthians 2:12-16)? Of course, this living and thinking and seeing is spiritual. I am not talking about doing these things in the physical.

So, if the whole world is dead in Messiah Yahushua, and it is, then this whole world is also a dead body, it is not? Yes!!! In the eyes of YAH this physical world is indeed a dead body, and in the eyes of YAH, there is nothing more defiling than a dead body. Even mankind itself has a fear and aversion to corpses. We don't like them lying around, do we? How long do you yourself think that YAH will tolerate a dead body lying around? One day? Two days? Three days? What would you do if you were YAH, and you were confronted with a decomposing dead body? What action would you take? You might bury it if you could somehow tolerate the stench, wouldn't you? How long has it been since all of mankind died with Messiah? It's been about two days, hasn't it (a day is like a thousand years)? Do you think that the stench of this dead rotting world is beginning to invade the nostrils of YAH? Fellows, we are in trouble. Let me tell you what I would do with a decomposing dead body. I would dump a bunch of gas on it and lite it afire, and I don't believe that YAH's intentions are much different:

1 Cor 3:13
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(KJV)

Heb 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (KJV)

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the YAHWEH will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (KJV)

Is that your fate, Brothers and Sisters (Romans 7:24)?

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

So, if you are not to be burned up, then you must consider yourselves saved. How were you saved from the abominable body of death which is this world? And please don't anyone tell me that you were saved by the substitutional death of Messiah Yahushua. If Messiah substitutionally died for you, then why must you be buried in baptism (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-4)? Do we not bury only the dead? Or do some also bury the living? Why bother with the burial of baptism if we did not die? You must be buried in baptism because you did die with Messiah, and you know what, we are saved by that burial, aren't we (1 Peter 3:21)?

So, it does appear that this world was put to death by the very death which the world gave to Messiah, and it does appear that some have been saved from that very death, and it does appear that some are now presently again being saved from that very death. Those being saved are called the Elect. The Elect are the ones being called forth from the dead body, which is this world, to receive the life which is in Messiah Yahushua. As the death of the world occurred in Messiah so also does the life of the world occur in Messiah. He is the Head of the Elect, the Firstborn from the dead. The Elect were chosen to receive this life through the spirit of Messiah which is also freely given to many of us. This spirit was poured out upon all flesh, and in due time, all in the dead body will come to life through that spirit, but for the time being, only the Elect are given opportunity to come to life in Messiah. We come from all races. We come from all nations. We seek each other out as long lost friends. For the most part, we appear to be Gentiles, but we have many Jewish brothers and sisters who cannot presently see who we really are. In due time, they will.

Have you ever wondered why you were chosen as a part of the Elect?

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

I know I have wondered, but I no longer wonder! We have been saved because YAHWEH keeps His promises. What promises? Consider these:

Gen 17:4-8
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be an ELOHIM unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their ELOHIM.
(KJV)

Abraham was promised that he would be the father of many nations. Abraham was also promised that Canaan would be his everlasting possession. Notice that the Land was also promised to the Seed as a everlasting possession. We are informed by the Apostle Paul as to the identify of this Seed. Paul categorically states that the Seed is Messiah (Galatians 3:16). He further states that all those who are baptized into Messiah become also Abraham's Seed (Galatians 3:27-29) because all who are baptized into Messiah belong to him. We have already seen how those who are baptized into Messiah are baptized into His death. Many of these believers come from the nations (Matthew 28:19-20). They need not be Jewish. They can be Gentiles.

Indeed, if you are Jewish by race, you should not automatically be considered the Seed. Both Paul and Messiah make arguments along these lines. Messiah clearly taught the Jews that if they should desire to claim Abraham as their father, then they must of necessity do the deeds of Abraham (John 8:39-40). Similarly, Paul taught that recognizably physical Israel and physical Ishmael and physical Esau are not necessarily the Seed (Romans 4:16, Romans 9:6-13). They may very well be descendants of Abraham, but they are not of the Seed. According to Paul, only the children of the promise are of the Seed. Therefore, Paul clearly teaches that not all physical Israel is of spiritual Israel:

Rom 9:6-7
6 Not as though the word of ELOHIM hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (KJV)

Those Jews who are honest will not dismiss these clear teachings of Paul and Messiah. Similarly, Gentiles who are honest should recognize who it is that does now own the Land of Canaan: Abraham, Messiah, and all the Elect both Jews and Gentiles who belong to Messiah. The Land does not belong to those Jews who now live in it and claim it as their own apart from Messiah.

So, when Paul states in Romans 11 "and so all Israel shall be saved", to whom does he refer? Does he refer to the saving of physical Israel or to the Israel of promise?

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

Obviously, you should by now know where I stand on this issue. When Paul states that "all Israel shall be saved", he is referring to the Israel of promise. This is why it is necessary that the true Gospel be taught and preached to all nations because the Israel of promise (both Jew and Gentile) can be found to reside in all the nations. The vast majority of the Elect like myself (a gentile) are lost sheep of the House of Israel. Our parents were carried away into captivity for their Sabbath breaking and idolatry, and any identity or association that we had with YAHWEH was completely lost. I myself was as the blind, unseeing, totally ignorant of my origins or the ways of YAH. Then YAH according to His manifold promises did gather me out of this world through Messiah in order that I might dwell with them and learn their thoughts and ways. They are my parents, and I hope that I am honoring them as they desire.

I have many Brothers and Sisters, and if you are reading these posts, you are probably one of them. Let me tell you how it has been with you. Your soul has developed an itch which you cannot quite reach to scratch. Regardless of whether you were religious or irreligious in the past, you now sense that you need to do more or become more than what you were. Maybe you are not that far as yet. Perhaps, you are just now beginning to feel the heat that YAH is sending your way to challenge your current beliefs. That is good. Accept the challenge. Defend for all your worth. You will do nothing but learn until eventually you awaken to see your slavery to sin in the dead corpse which is this world (Messiah crucified). Then you will in haste leave Egypt and follow Messiah. You will, like Abraham, get up out of your father's house (Satan, the dead corpse) and go to and dwell in the Land (Messiah) that YAH will show you. You are a recipient of the promises through Messiah Yahushua.

No doubt many of you have been drawn or have gravitated toward Judaism thus far in your life. You feel a kinship towards the Jews that you just cannot explain. Understand, Brothers and Sisters, that the spirit that is drawing you toward Messiah is a Jewish spirit. Messiah is Jewish. The things that are important to him are going to become important to you. You are his lost sheep. He is seeking and finding you, and he is bringing each of us into his fold, his house. Remember that all the promises of YAH have their fulfillment in Messiah. You owe your allegiance to him and to him alone. Listen to his voice and follow him.

Consider these promises:

Deut 30:1-8
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the YAHWEH, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. (KJV)

Have these things been happening to you in your life? They are happening with the Tzaddikim.

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

So, when will all Israel be saved? All Israel is saved because the true Gospel has been preached to all nations. This brings about the fullness of Israel. Physical Israel is again a nation so the Gospel of YAHWEH can again now come to her. In due time this will happen, but for now the Gospel must go forth to the Lost Sheep among the nations so that the natural branches which were also broken off through the death of Messiah Yahushua have opportunity to again be made jealous of the mercy shown to the Gentiles. Remember: You have received mercy in order to teach all nations to become disciples of Messiah. All nations include physical Israel. So the Elect, at first primarily Gentiles, will teach physical Israel (Judaism) the way of YAHWEH and then all Israel will have been saved. Think about it. That is an extraordinary happening.

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Shalom,

Ok, I must admit to a bit of trepidation as I begin my first real post to this forum. Why? I really don't know. I have been interested in understanding your point of view for a while now. Yet I am at such a busy time in my life that I am not sure I have the time or resources to do so properly and with intellectual integrity. I will just have to do the best I can.

Let's start at the begining.

You wrote:

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

Fundamental to the faith of the Tzaddikim is our belief that the whole of mankind did sacrifice or slay Messiah Yahushua through their sin.


Let's say for the sake of understanding that I disagree with this premiss. I am not so sure that I can take as a given that ALL of mankind offered Yeshua as a sacrifice.

No one that I know was around to slay anyone either.

Please convince me otherwise.

With hesitant anticipation,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Crossing your Ribucon!

Hi Simpleman,

Would you let me get away with saying that I'll try? I think in a certain fashion that you have taken a giant step with your post. I know that YAH is pleased. Those who pursue after truth and wisdom often find themselves short of time. After awhile there is no time for anything but the pursuit of righteousness once truth and wisdom are found. Those who stand up for all three often do so with great trepidation.

Do you feel an obligation to love YAH your ELOHIM with all your soul, all your heart, and all you might? Does this commandment have meaning for you?

Deut 6:4-5
4 Hear, O Israel: The YAHWEH our ELOHIM is one YAHWEH:
5 And thou shalt love the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (KJV)

How about these commandments? Do you with a whole heart pursue these requirements?

Deut 10:12
12 And now, Israel, what doth the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM require of thee, but to fear the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thy heart and with all thy soul. (KJV)

I really don't have to ask, Simpleman. I know that you do. I also know that you have failed to live up to these commandments in your life. These commandments do not say, "You must try." You are told what to do and you are expected to do it. So, just exactly how far do you carry your fear, your service, your walk, your love of YAH? The Apostle John states in no uncertain terms just exactly what it means to love YAH:

I Jn 5:3
3 For this is the love of ELOHIM, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.(KJV)

Do you limit your love toward YAH? Do you try to keep all of HIS commandments? What do you do when you fail?

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Spying,

I will attempt (is that better than to try? ) to get to the heart of your questions.

I fail almost every day in my feeble attempt to live up to all of the comandments of our Father(mostly on inside issues of the mind). I have done in the past many things that would be considered as grevious sin in the eyes of other people as well as my Father. I have repented and do so almost daily for the multitude of things I have done and still do that are unpleasing to my Father. The Father is faithful to forgive me and lead me into righteousness. I believe that He will continue with me until the end. I will continue to mature and grow to be more like Him in word and deed. Praise Yahweh!!

As to ALWAYS trying my best. I don't even do that.

I hope that I have answered in a manner that will help you to answer my original question.

In Messiah,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Is YAH faithful?

Hi Simpleman,

Good morning and happy Sabbath to you and your fine family. Give your kids a hug for me and tell them it is from Spying.

How did you like Bratu's last response to me? There appears to be a difference between your response and his, but bottom line both say practically the same thing. Bratu is going to disobey YAH and live, and Simpleman is going to disobey YAH and live. Bratu lives because he doesn't believe in the power of YAH; Simpleman lives because he believes in the faithfulness of YAH. If YAH is faithful and powerful, why does HE not remain true to HIS word by allowing the both of you to yet live?

Does not YAH say that the soul who sins shall die?

Ezek 18:20-21
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(KJV)

YAH demands and expects obedience like any parent. YAH hears alot of excuses, but does HE accept them? Not if YAH is faithful to HIS word!

YAH says through Moses:

Deut 8:1-3
1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the YAHWEH sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the YAHWEH doth man live. (KJV)

If this is the case, and it is, should we not get serious about every word, that is, if, indeed, YAH is faithful?

Sincerely, Spying?

[simpleman]

my thoughts

I was working on this for a while. I was comming to post it when I came here and found your response to my last post. I hope that this will answer your question about how I will continue to live.

Spying,

I have been giving some thought to your ideas. I have some thoughts to share. I hope they will make you think a bit if nothing else. As I said, I do not have much free time right now so I am sure that you can find further verses that apply.

First I want to address the Passover sacrifice. As we know, the original Passover happened as the event allowing the people to leave Egypt. Most people believe that Egypt represents this world’s system. I would agree with that. I do not see the Passover dealing with sin as much as freedom from sin. Anyway, a man, let’s call him spying, would select a lamb, perfect of course. This lamb would live with his family for a time and then spying would take the lamb and sacrifice it. The family’s job was to consume the lamb completely. Let’s look at Yeshua. He is called Yahweh’s lamb.

John 1
36And looking at Yeshua as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of Elohim!"

I agree that He was our perfect Passover sacrifice but our job is to consume Him. Yahweh’s lamb was sacrificed by Yahweh. Yeshua told people that unless they ate His flesh and drank His blood that they would have no part of Him. This would also seem to go along with the “last supper” thing. Also with this part of Isaiah:

Isaiah 53
10Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the of Yahweh shall prosper in His hand.

The concept of consuming a sacrifice is not only with Passover. I am sure you will see the similarities between this command and the Passover comands.

Exodus 29
32Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 33They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy. 34And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.

I believe that Yeshua was filling more than one sacrifice on the cross. Notice that the verse says, “When You make His soul an offering for sin,” I believe that Yeshua fulfilled the sin offerings on the cross too.




Exodus 30
10And Aaron shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement; once a year he shall make atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most holy to Yahweh."


I am sure that you know how the high priest would make atonement for the unintentional sins of the people. Yeshua is our high priest. From the cross He said to forgive them for they know not what they do. This is laid out pretty well in Hebrews chapter 10. Anyway, as well as Yahweh sacrificing His Passover lamb, Yeshua, as high priest, also made the atonement sacrifice at this time.

John 10
18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."


The other type of sacrifice for sin was to be made by each individual that sinned. I believe that this is the place where we must realize that it was us and our sin that held Yeshua to the cross too.

Leviticus 4
22"When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of Yahweh his Elohim in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish. 24And he shall lay his hand on the head of the goat, and kill it at the place where they kill the burnt offering before Yahweh. It is a sin offering.

Leviticus 5
5"And it shall be, when he is guilty in any of these matters, that he shall confess that he has sinned in that thing; 6and he shall bring his trespass offering to Yahweh for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin.
7"If he is not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring to Yahweh, for his trespass which he has committed, two turtledoves or two young pigeons: one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering.

Thus, in a sense, I agree with you that we sacrificed Yeshua. But only if we recognize our sin and let Him be our sacrifice. Not all of mankind has done or will do so. We all have freedom from this world by Yahweh’s Passover sacrifice if we consume it. We all have atonement by Yeshua’s sacrifice if we identify with it and accept/understand it. We will only receive forgiveness for our intentional sins as we repent and realize that our sin put our Savior on the cross.

I am sure that I missed some things and this is just a basic outline. I believe you are literate enough in Scripture to fill in my gaps. In fact right now I am thinking about and wondering with which sacrifice we died with Him. I am also fairly sure that I have something wrong. I usually find out years later that I do. At least this will make for some fine conversation and maybe give you something to think about. Many people only recognize the Atonement part, that Yeshua gave Himself. You guys are the first I have seen that use the Passover part but use it in the way of the personal intentional sin offering yet want to make it for everyone. Even if they never recognize their sin...?


Shalom,
Simpleman

[Spying]

The Impossible Dream

Hi Simpleman,

Thank you for being willing to place your thoughts on paper so that others can examine them.

It is written that Messiah Yahushua is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 10:4). After all, is this not his stated goal?:

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV)

We all know what it means to have goals. We all know what it means to work towards a goal. If a person publicly declares a goal, do we allow them to claim that they have reached their goal if they have in any fashion changed the terms of the goal prior to reaching it. Not at all. That is not being honest. That is not being fair to all those who have honestly stuck to the terms and conditions of their goals and have worked consistently to attain their goals no matter the difficulty. Messiah knew all of that when he stated his goal. Messiah knew that the terms of the goal should not be changed until the goal is reached. I mean this issue really revolves around a bottom line condition of the Law itself. There exists a fundamental requirement of the Law that is stated at least twice in the Law for emphasis:

Deut 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the YAHWEH your ELOHIM which I command you.(KJV)

Deut 12:32
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)

Now, I am very pleased that you have gone to the effort in your personal studies to take the time to look at some of the various issues that Messiah must have encountered as he himself contemplated bringing about the various circumstances in which he could claim that the Law had been fulfilled. There do exist a lot of them. When you begin to look at the various and sometimes conflicting animal sacrifices, you begin to see the enormous complexity of Messiah's goal to fulfill the Law.

When we are asked to judge whether or not someone has attained their stated goal, what should we properly do? We should take a good look at all the terms of the goal before we declare a winner, shouldn't we? Messiah doesn't expect any preferential treatment. It is as simple as this: Examine the terms and see if he actually accomplished them?The Book of Hebrews was written because this examination and scrutiny was occurring during the time of the Apostles. As a Jew, I could very simply look at the Law and at the Christian claim that Messiah was a priest and reach the conclusion that Messiah had no business being a priest because Messiah was not a Levite of the House of Aaron. Well, if the Christians should claim that Yahushua was a priest, and they do, then somebody has changed the rules, haven't they? If they have changed the rules, then I have no need or compulsion to take any of their claims seriously, do I? So, it is very important, Simpleman, that we look at the requirements instead of simply dismissing them, and especially, if we are to consider the needs of our Jewish brethren, we need to look and learn how to explain.

Consider the Passover Lamb. Paul in writing to both Jews and Gentiles indicates that Messiah is the Passover Lamb of both:

1 Cor 5:7
7 ........... For even Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us: (KJV)

Now, does Paul by this statement mean to imply to all of us that Messiah is an actual physical lamb. We all know better than that. We all must recognize and state the obvious here, that Paul in his thinking is operating on a spiritual level, a notch above the physical. Messiah could not physically be a Passover Lamb because Messiah was a man and not an animal. In the same manner, Messiah could not be a priest because he was of the tribe of Judah and not a physical Levite. Yet, we all accept sheepishly that Messiah was a priest; eventhough, we have no real awareness of how Messiah could possibly be a priest.

So, Simpleman, in no uncertain terms, here is what the Torah requires concerning the slaying of the Passover Lamb:

Exod 12:3-6
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:.......
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (KJV)

In order for the Torah to receive its fulfillment through Messiah, then somehow we must be able to prove how the whole assembly of Israel killed Messiah. The Law does not allow it to happen any other way.

Now, I have indicated on this thread that I consider myself to be a member of physical Israel; eventhough, I cannot prove my physical roots. It is not necessary that I prove those roots. I consider myself first and foremost to be a spiritual Israelite through Messiah Yahushua. He is the spiritual Passover Lamb, and I am a spiritual Israelite who did slay his lamb at the proper time and in the proper manner according to the requirements of the Law.

Now, you can say to me: "Spying, Messiah died two thousand years ago. You are dreaming. How could you possibly have been there?" If you are concentrating on the physical, then there is no way I could have been there, but there is a spiritual way I was there, and so were you. Do you think it possible?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Can someone please explain to me what the Passover has to do with sin (or the sins of the world)?

John 1:29
On the next day, John sees Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold! The Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Brothers and Sisters,

So, if you are not to be burned up, then you must consider yourselves saved. How were you saved from the abominable body of death which is this world? And please don't anyone tell me that you were saved by the substitutional death of Messiah Yahushua. If Messiah substitutionally died for you, then why must you be buried in baptism (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-4)? Do we not bury only the dead? Or do some also bury the living? Why bother with the burial of baptism if we did not die? You must be buried in baptism because you did die with Messiah, and you know what, we are saved by that burial, aren't we (1 Peter 3:21)?
=snip=
Sincerely, Spying

Sandy writes:
What is said in 1 Peter 3:21 is just the opposite of what happens with Noah and the ark.

What is baptism? Is it not immersion? Immersion is to to be made fully wet or totally submerged.
[list]1 Peter 3
20) ...in the days of Noah having prepared an ark in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water
21) which figure now also saves us, IMMERSION

In Genesis 6-9 Noah and his family were saved from the water by residing in the ark which YHUH told Noah to make.

1. Was Noah and his family submerged or covered by the water?
2. Wasn't Noah and his family kept totally out of the water and remained completely dry because YHUH shut them up in the ark?
3. Isn't being kept out of the water and staying completely dry the opposite of being submerged (baptized/immersed) in water and made totally wet?
4. Which one saved Noah and his family: The ark or the water?
5. If Noah and his family were saved by the ark (FROM the water) and everyone submerged in the water (baptized) was NOT saved but drowned (destroyed) isn't Peter's statement a complete contradiction of what actually took place?

Think about it. The people who were submerged (baptized) were destroyed and the ones kept out of the water were saved.

[Sandy]

Re: Is YAH faithful?

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Simpleman,

Good morning and happy Sabbath to you and your fine family. Give your kids a hug for me and tell them it is from Spying.

How did you like Bratu's last response to me? There appears to be a difference between your response and his, but bottom line both say practically the same thing. Bratu is going to disobey YAH and live, and Simpleman is going to disobey YAH and live. Bratu lives because he doesn't believe in the power of YAH; Simpleman lives because he believes in the faithfulness of YAH. If YAH is faithful and powerful, why does HE not remain true to HIS word by allowing the both of you to yet live?

Does not YAH say that the soul who sins shall die?

Ezek 18:20-21
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(KJV)

YAH demands and expects obedience like any parent. YAH hears alot of excuses, but does HE accept them? Not if YAH is faithful to HIS word!

YAH says through Moses:

Deut 8:1-3
1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the YAHWEH sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the YAHWEH doth man live. (KJV)

If this is the case, and it is, should we not get serious about every word, that is, if, indeed, YAH is faithful?

Sincerely, Spying?

Sandy writes:
How do you justify that with the deeds of king David? Not only did he commit adultery with Bathsheba but he conspired to have her husband placed in a situation where he would be killed. The innocent child that was born out of that adultery was struck by YHUH and it died on the seventh day.

• Leviticus 20:10
  A man who commits adultery with a man's wife, who commits adultery with the wife of a neighbor, the adulterer and the adulteress are surely to be put to death.
  
  2 Samuel 11
  2) And it happened at evening time, David rose up from his bed and walked up and down on the roof of the king's house, and he saw from the roof a woman bathing and the woman was very good of form.
  3) And David sent and asked about the woman, and one said, Is this not Bathsheba...the wife of Uriah the Hittite?
  4) And David sent messengers to summon her, and she came to him and he lay with her...
  5) And the woman conceived, and sent, and told David...
  14) And in the morning David wrote a letter to Joab...
  15) And he wrote in the letter saying, Place Uriah in the front of the strongest fighting and withdraw from him that he may be struck and die.
  17) ...And Uriah the Hittite died.
  18) And Joab sent and told David...
  26) And Uriah's wife heard that her husband Uriah was dead, and she mourned for her husband, and the mourning time passed by and David sent and gathered her to his house; and she became his wife and bore a son to him. And the thing which David had done was evil in the eyes of YHUH.

What did YHUH do to David and Bathsheba? Did He do according to His own instructions/Torah concerning adultery and murder? NO! He did not. What did YHUH say and do?

• 2 Samuel 12
  13) And David said to Nathan, I have sinned against YHUH, and Nathan said to David, YHUH has also put away your sin; you shall not die.
  14) Only because you have made the enemies of YHUH scorn by this thing, also the son who shall be born to you shall surely die.
  15) ...and YHUH struck the boy whom the wife of Uriah had borne to David and it became sick.
  18) And on the seventh day the boy died...
  24) And David comforted his wife Bathsheba and went in to her and lay with her, and she bore a son and he called his name Solomon, and YHUH loved him.

So David and Bethsheba were not killed according to the command, but the innocent child was struck and died and David was allowed to have Bethsheba for his wife.

[Spying]

The Passover Lamb and Freedom

Hi Sandy,

Boy, my e-mail alarm sure has been sounding telling me that someone has responded to my thread! Thank you for the replies and the good questions.

Allow me to give you my personal impression of the Lamb, but before I do please be aware that the Tzaddikim take John's designation of Messiah as the Lamb of ELOHIM very seriously. We truly believe that this Lamb does take away the sin of the world. We do not believe as the world does teach that the Lamb dies to remove the penalty of sin. YAH is not concerned about your penalty, but HE is concerned about removing your sin. If your sin is truly removed, it is gone. This has happened and is happening in the lives of the Tzaddikim.

As you should know by now, I view the sacrifices in a symbolic or spiritual sense with the focus on Messiah Yahushua. The Passover Lamb is unique because it must be slain before the Children of Israel could commence to leave Egypt. Egypt in my thinking is a picture or shadow of this world. It is very difficult to be born into this world without becoming a slave to the world. We are first enticed by our flesh, and then most of us give ourselves over to sin. Having sinned, we find ourselves in slavery to sin powerless to change our condition. Slowly, we find ourselves also submitting to the ways of this world rather than the ways of YAHWEH. Something momentous and wonderful must happen before we have deliverance from our flesh and all the allurements of this world. This wonderful happening is the death of the Lamb.

What must die in you, Sandy, before you have freedom from sin? The first thing that must perish is your submissive attitude. You must be willing to make a complete break with your sin. You must be willing to defiantly stand against your sin and the ways of this world. You must believe that you can win, that you can triumph over your sinful self. In order words, Sandy, the little lamb in you must die.

What convinces you of your death? For me it was the death of Messiah. Looking at his death, I knew that he died according to the Law. He died for me, but he did not die in my stead. That is an abomination according to the scriptures that the innocent should suffer in the place of the guilty. Besides how would the death of anyone else in my stead help me to escape Egypt and the slavery of my sin? If I am a slave to sin, someone else does not need to die. The slave to sin needs to die. The sinner needs to die. So, Messiah through sacrifice was able to bring about my lawful death through a behind the scenes operation of the Law which is occurring spiritually that Messiah could see and understand. This world has absolutely no awareness of this operation. I have a hope that you also will see and understand what is truly going on in Messiah's death.

When YAHWEH sees the death of the sinner in the blood of the Lamb, YAH passes over your former life of sin, and you become aware that you better not tarry any longer in Egypt. Hope this has been helpful.

Sincerely, Spying