How do you feel about THE TORTURE TESTS.... [godly ones ofcourse.]

[LucySmith]

hmmm
As i was growing up in a loving home with my 2 younger sisters i always remember my father was like a king,
He was so filled with kindness and wisdom and nothing was too much trouble for him to do for his family.
I always related my real father and his kingly ways to my DIVINE FATHER and His care over me...

So with this fatherhood image in my mind....
sometimes its a great surprise to see the act of TORTURE to another being = being used as a punishment from '''' THE GOD''''' of the universe.

Torture as Punishment:
Eve’s Curse
–Intense and prolonged pain meted out as punishment appears almost immediately in the pages of the Bible, inflicted by God himself, who curses Eve because she has eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.

“To the woman He said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children; yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you’”

(Genesis 2:16).

torture
As understood by the ancient Hebrews, physical pain would have been just part of Eve’s curse.
In generations past, an estimated 1 in 10 women eventually died of childbearing, as they do today in places like rural Afghanistan where modern contraceptives and medicines are unavailable and men “rule over” women.

One psychological element of the curse was repeated cycles of fear and uncertainty for a woman who might labor, give birth and then bleed out; or who (in the absence of caesarean section) might labor for days, unable to deliver, until her body gave up and she died.
Leading church fathers saw maternal suffering and death as right and proper, because of Eve’s sin and the role God had prescribed for women.


Hmmm
its good to ask questions - by looking into the guts of things for yourself
yes
And to find out if you would issue ''torture'' to another being yourself
or
would you have taken a very different approach.

Ofcourse this is only the tip of the torture iceberg in the bible = as so many more acts can be added to the list from a loving god.


And God said, let there be torture. And there was torture. And it was good.

[ImAHebrew]

Lucy, it's a shame, isn't it?

hmmm
As i was growing up in a loving home with my 2 younger sisters i always remember my father was like a king,
He was so filled with kindness and wisdom and nothing was too much trouble for him to do for his family.
I always related my real father and his kingly ways to my DIVINE FATHER and His care over me...

So with this fatherhood image in my mind....
sometimes its a great surprise to see the act of TORTURE to another being = being used as a punishment from '''' THE GOD''''' of the universe.

Torture as Punishment:
Eve’s Curse
–Intense and prolonged pain meted out as punishment appears almost immediately in the pages of the Bible, inflicted by God himself, who curses Eve because she has eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.
(Genesis 2:16).

torture
As understood by the ancient Hebrews, physical pain would have been just part of Eve’s curse.
In generations past, an estimated 1 in 10 women eventually died of childbearing, as they do today in places like rural Afghanistan where modern contraceptives and medicines are unavailable and men “rule over” women.

One psychological element of the curse was repeated cycles of fear and uncertainty for a woman who might labor, give birth and then bleed out; or who (in the absence of caesarean section) might labor for days, unable to deliver, until her body gave up and she died.
Leading church fathers saw maternal suffering and death as right and proper, because of Eve’s sin and the role God had prescribed for women.


Hmmm
its good to ask questions - by looking into the guts of things for yourself
yes
And to find out if you would issue ''torture'' to another being yourself
or
would you have taken a very different approach.

Ofcourse this is only the tip of the torture iceberg in the bible = as so many more acts can be added to the list from a loving god.


And God said, let there be torture. And there was torture. And it was good.

Hi Lucy, yes, it's a shame Elohim wasn't smart and powerful enough to get His Word written in the bible, and that old Serpent, the Devil "Yahweh" was able to, according to what you teach and believe. It sure will be nice when He finally decides to get His Word written somewhere for us to read, instead of just listening to you telling us what He says.

On a serious note, do you ever really listen to what you try to teach us, Dear Lady? Ken

[LucySmith]

yes i do dear Ken... the whole point is... TO STEM THE TIDE OF MAN MADE UP...

Hi Lucy, yes, it's a shame Elohim wasn't smart and powerful enough to get His Word written in the bible, and that old Serpent, the Devil "Yahweh" was able to, according to what you teach and believe. It sure will be nice when He finally decides to get His Word written somewhere for us to read, instead of just listening to you telling us what He says.

On a serious note, do you ever really listen to what you try to teach us, Dear Lady? Ken

INDOCTRINATION....
plus
its CRUDE and divisive system of cruelty and evil prospering under the guise of ''GOD SAID''

consider
not one true father in the world would bring ''torture'' into his family as a punishment. [only if he was a mental cripple] Infact parents are jailed for child abuse and torture today.
There is NO excuse for acts of downright evil to be called ''godly''
also
nothing written in that book can be ''eye witnessed'' nor '''proven in anyway''... yet wars and torture and cruelty exists in its name

His word as you put it = is not HIS WORD IAH but corrupt information~~~ and in its midst lies some true diamonds.
infact except for some selected passages it should be torn up and shredded..... because IT SIMPLY DOESNT WORK in real life.
your whole family is a product of its NON WORKABLE POWERS.

THE GOD OF bible TORTURE.... has many acts to discern ''his'' character inside.~~~~

[LucySmith]

the character of OT FATHERHOOD....needs fruit inspection

to see if it IS worthy of our respect and worship.
perhaps the bible '' TORTURE INCORPORATED''.......................................
is not your ''cup of tea'' so to speak

lets fruit inspect this activity
The Midianite Virgins—torture - sex slaves
In wars, victors often rape conquered females as a means of further humiliating male enemies.
In the story of the Midianite virgins, though, the motivation is more instrumental. God’s command,

“Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.”

Numbers 31: 17-18)

The girls are taken as booty of war, tallied along with livestock and gold, and the purpose of their sexual slavery is to provide pleasure and progeny for the men who have slaughtered their families.

SERIOUSLY~~~~
We HAVE NO eye witness account of this in real life.... none can testify to the truth of this matter
its only written in a book yet most people believe and condone these ACTS AS ''GOD BREATHED'' and ofcourse this ''moral standard'' still remains in a few places as ''morally accepted behaviour''.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2017-06-09/un-peacekeepers-sexual-assault-problem

''THE BOOK '' CONDONES THE BEHAVIOUR OF BEASTS.

hmmm the bible cruelty '''maketh the man''
The first half of December 2014 was painful to many moderate American Christians who see their God as a God of love.
A Senate inquiry revealed that the CIA tortured men, some innocent, to the point of unconsciousness and even death;
evidence suggested that this torture extracted no lifesaving information.

A majority of Americans responded by giving torture the thumbs-up, with the strongest approval coming from Christians, both Catholic and Protestant.
Faced with moral outrage, including from within their own ranks, Christian torture apologists took to the airwaves and the Internet, weaving righteous justifications for the practice of inflicting pain on incapacitated enemies.

As morally repugnant as this may be, anyone familiar with either past survey data or Christian history shouldn’t find it surprising.
One of the CIA’s favoured leave-no-marks torture techniques, waterboarding, was refined by Inquisition authorities during the interrogation of heathens and heretics.

There’s a reason devout Christians past and present can turn to torture when it suits their ends and then blithely maintain that they are on the side of God and goodness.
The Bible itself—Old Testament endorses torture regularly, through stories, laws, prophesies and sermons.

[ImAHebrew]

Lucy, compared to some people I know, you live in utter poverty.

INDOCTRINATION....
plus
its CRUDE and divisive system of cruelty and evil prospering under the guise of ''GOD SAID''

consider
not one true father in the world would bring ''torture'' into his family as a punishment. [only if he was a mental cripple] Infact parents are jailed for child abuse and torture today.
There is NO excuse for acts of downright evil to be called ''godly''
also
nothing written in that book can be ''eye witnessed'' nor '''proven in anyway''... yet wars and torture and cruelty exists in its name

His word as you put it = is not HIS WORD IAH but corrupt information~~~ and in its midst lies some true diamonds.
infact except for some selected passages it should be torn up and shredded..... because IT SIMPLY DOESNT WORK in real life.
your whole family is a product of its NON WORKABLE POWERS.

THE GOD OF bible TORTURE.... has many acts to discern ''his'' character inside.~~~~

Hi Lucy, compared to some of the people I know, you wealth is pennies. Now, if we would judge you by your lack of wealth compared to them, one could only deduce that THEIR god is so much better to them than your god is to you. If you are going to judge your god by how much physical wealth he gives to you, you just may have Satan as your god, since he is the god of this world. Think about it my dear. Ken

P.S. I am also an "eye witness" of Yeshua's resurrection, are you?

[LucySmith]

try to stay in tune with theme IAH you have wandered off.

I am reminded of the quote from
Voltaire, as I read your above post IAH

“Those who can get you to believe absurdities, can get you
to commit atrocities.”

[LucySmith]

unjust? lets consider according to the story=it goes like this

In his 1,100-page Genesis, Creation and Early Man:
The Orthodox Christian Vision, author Seraphim Rose
quotes a 4th century commentary by Ambrose of Milan:

The devil attacked not through the man, but through the woman - not because the woman was weaker or more passionate, because both Adam and Eve still preserved the essences of their original natures
- but for the simple reason that Adam alone had heard the command of God, whereas Eve knew it only indirectly, and thereby might be considered more likely to disobey it.

St. Ambrose writes of this:

[The devil] aimed to circumvent Adam by means of the woman.
He did not accost the man who had in his presence received the heavenly command.
He accosted her who had learned of it from her husband and who had not received from God the command which was to be observed.
There is no statement that God spoke to the woman.
We know that He spoke to Adam.
Hence we must conclude that the command was communicated through Adam to the woman.
ParadiseXIV

Eve is the person who is historically viewed as the instigator of the fall, and countless works have vilified her.
Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there;
Eve's perceived responsibility for the fall of man has been used as a reason to subjugate women for literally thousands of years.

Because this end has been the sole point of many of the works, Eve very rarely gets a fair evaluation of her fault.

In the Bible's account God makes the world,
God makes Adam, and
then God warns Adam about the tree of knowledge:

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:16-17).

Then God then makes Eve.

You'll notice that Eve is not present to receive God's warning personally.
In fact, during Eve's exchange with the serpent, the warning seems to have changed somewhat; it has become

not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die." (Genesis 3:3)

Adam has conveyed God's warning, but he has changed it somewhat.

When Eve encounters the serpent, it convinces her that Adam's warning was wrong.

The serpent says "You will not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Eve isn't completely convinced, but she follows the snake to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Eve sees "that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom" (Genesis 3:6) so she eats it.
In doing so, Eve ignores Adam's warning.
After eating the fruit, Eve "gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." (Genesis 3:6)

Generally it is thought that Eve disobeys God by eating the fruit.
Why?
God never told Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God's warning was specifically given to Adam, about Adam.

"You must not eat from the tree of knowledge",
not
"You, and anyone you happen to see must not eat from the tree of knowledge."

At worst, Eve is disobeying Adam, who felt the need to change God's warning to make it more restrictive.

It comes clear what sort of corruption of the story is required to make Eve even somewhat guilty.
only Adam was told not the eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, so it was his responsibility to obey God's wishes,

why would you TORTURE a person, whom was never directly told in person face to face
consider this
a deceptive trick was played out upon her. nothing more nor less.

Eve being deceived does not necessarily imply that she is to blame for original sin.
If anything it might be tempting to think the opposite—that because Eve was deceived while Adam knew full well what he was doing that his sin is worse, and he should be blamed.

However, the Bible never states that Adam’s sin was worse than Eve’s.
Both were punished for their sin (Genesis 3:16–19).
why?
does injustice win the day from the beginning of this whole set of 39 books


In 2008, Hana Williams was adopted from an orphanage in Ethiopia and brought to the United States where she died at the hands of her Bible-believing American parents.
Their notion of Christian discipline required breaking her will, a remarkably common belief among conservative Evangelicals.
To that end, they frequently beat her, shut her in a closet, and denied her meals.
Ultimately, she was left outside where she died of hypothermia exacerbated by malnutrition.
They were convicted of manslaughter this month.

Whoever spares the rod quote In carrying out their obsession with child obedience, Hana’s adoptive parents drew tips from Tennessee preacher Michael Pearl, whose spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child book, To Train Up a Child, has been found now in three homes of Christian parents who killed their adopted children.
The title comes from a stanza in the book of Proverbs: Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

the fruits from a rotting tree

[LucySmith]

We should all cherish honest inquiry more than any set of handed-down answers,

We cherish honest inquiry more than any set of handed-down answers, that we were never an eye witness too~~~~ we never saw the true evidence.
notice in Jesus gospel HE HAD EYE WITNESS.... as his foundations for truth

ask this question
What are the most likely conclusions, based on the whole stack of messy OT evidence?
What are our best, wisest, most honest judgments,?

Yeshua is the standard anything less is not from HIM= despite all arguments to the contrary

[ImAHebrew]

Lucy, I was RIGHT ON topic.

I am reminded of the quote from
Voltaire, as I read your above post IAH

“Those who can get you to believe absurdities, can get you
to commit atrocities.”

Hi Lucy, I was right on topic. You declare to us that the Holy Scriptures are totally corrupted and we should listen to your take on the several verses that slant in your direction of believing that Yahweh Elohim and Moses were the most vile and evil monsters that have ever lived. Your PROOF of convincing us is by saying that we are not as blessed as you are in a monetary sense. Yet when I bring up how your wealth in a physical sense is pennies compared to others, and suggest that we need to listen to them instead of you, I become "off topic." No, it is very on topic, and you should not look at your self vaulted circumstance in life and think that you can deny the Holy Scriptures and what they teach. Ken

[ImAHebrew]

Lucy...garbage.

In his 1,100-page Genesis, Creation and Early Man:
The Orthodox Christian Vision, author Seraphim Rose
quotes a 4th century commentary by Ambrose of Milan:

The devil attacked not through the man, but through the woman - not because the woman was weaker or more passionate, because both Adam and Eve still preserved the essences of their original natures
- but for the simple reason that Adam alone had heard the command of God, whereas Eve knew it only indirectly, and thereby might be considered more likely to disobey it.

St. Ambrose writes of this:

[The devil] aimed to circumvent Adam by means of the woman.
He did not accost the man who had in his presence received the heavenly command.
He accosted her who had learned of it from her husband and who had not received from God the command which was to be observed.
There is no statement that God spoke to the woman.
We know that He spoke to Adam.
Hence we must conclude that the command was communicated through Adam to the woman.
ParadiseXIV

Eve is the person who is historically viewed as the instigator of the fall, and countless works have vilified her.
Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there;
Eve's perceived responsibility for the fall of man has been used as a reason to subjugate women for literally thousands of years.

Because this end has been the sole point of many of the works, Eve very rarely gets a fair evaluation of her fault.

In the Bible's account God makes the world,
God makes Adam, and
then God warns Adam about the tree of knowledge:


Then God then makes Eve.

You'll notice that Eve is not present to receive God's warning personally.
In fact, during Eve's exchange with the serpent, the warning seems to have changed somewhat; it has become

Adam has conveyed God's warning, but he has changed it somewhat.

When Eve encounters the serpent, it convinces her that Adam's warning was wrong.


Eve isn't completely convinced, but she follows the snake to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Eve sees "that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom" (Genesis 3:6) so she eats it.
In doing so, Eve ignores Adam's warning.
After eating the fruit, Eve "gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." (Genesis 3:6)

Generally it is thought that Eve disobeys God by eating the fruit.
Why?
God never told Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God's warning was specifically given to Adam, about Adam.


At worst, Eve is disobeying Adam, who felt the need to change God's warning to make it more restrictive.

It comes clear what sort of corruption of the story is required to make Eve even somewhat guilty.
only Adam was told not the eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, so it was his responsibility to obey God's wishes,

why would you TORTURE a person, whom was never directly told in person face to face
consider this
a deceptive trick was played out upon her. nothing more nor less.

Eve being deceived does not necessarily imply that she is to blame for original sin.
If anything it might be tempting to think the opposite—that because Eve was deceived while Adam knew full well what he was doing that his sin is worse, and he should be blamed.

However, the Bible never states that Adam’s sin was worse than Eve’s.
Both were punished for their sin (Genesis 3:16–19).
why?
does injustice win the day from the beginning of this whole set of 39 books
[ATTACH]251[/ATTACH]

In 2008, Hana Williams was adopted from an orphanage in Ethiopia and brought to the United States where she died at the hands of her Bible-believing American parents.
Their notion of Christian discipline required breaking her will, a remarkably common belief among conservative Evangelicals.
To that end, they frequently beat her, shut her in a closet, and denied her meals.
Ultimately, she was left outside where she died of hypothermia exacerbated by malnutrition.
They were convicted of manslaughter this month.

Whoever spares the rod quote In carrying out their obsession with child obedience, Hana’s adoptive parents drew tips from Tennessee preacher Michael Pearl, whose spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child book, To Train Up a Child, has been found now in three homes of Christian parents who killed their adopted children.
The title comes from a stanza in the book of Proverbs: Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

the fruits from a rotting tree

Lucy, this is utter garbage. Eve stated to the serpent that "Elohim hath said", not that "My husband hath said." Eve told Elohim that the serpent "beguiled" her. If this nonsense is true in the article above, Eve should have said, "But Elohim, YOU never told me not to eat of the tree!" Lucy, why do you find such nonsense articles like the above, credible? Ken

[LucySmith]

if you read with the anointing you will see this

Genesis 3:8
"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

“Voice”: Better translated “sound” as it appears in theophanies (a visible manifestation to humankind of God),
“Cool of the day” may be understood as the “spirit of the day,” as the Hebrew word for cool is the same for spirit.
notice the facts
This is the first specific time it is mentioned that Eve heard God's voice.
therefore Eve had her information from Adam, who added to the original command...''touch not the tree''

the ''we'' as written was Adam had told Eve NOT GOD....
I just so dislike how the unanointed twist facts

[ImAHebrew]

Lucy...silliness.

“Voice”: Better translated “sound” as it appears in theophanies (a visible manifestation to humankind of God),
“Cool of the day” may be understood as the “spirit of the day,” as the Hebrew word for cool is the same for spirit.
notice the facts
This is the first specific time it is mentioned that Eve heard God's voice.
therefore Eve had her information from Adam, who added to the original command...''touch not the tree''

the ''we'' as written was Adam had told Eve NOT GOD....
I just so dislike how the unanointed twist facts

Hi Lucy, this is "silliness." First, you state the Bible is false, second, you will then believe your internet lover's claims as to what the Bible says, and this is a perfect example. Try to understand this. Adam and Eve BOTH KNEW and HEARD Elohim's command, and there is NOTHING written that would either deny nor affirm this, so we are just speaking of "opinions." Now, you can take this to the bank. Elohim stated that the "man" has BECOME as one of Us, to KNOW good and evil, and I can assure you, that even though the "woman" is not mentioned here, it is for certain that the woman ALSO became like the Elohim, to KNOW good and evil. Ken

[LucySmith]

thats is only your opinion IAH and not true fact

Hi Lucy, this is "silliness." First, you state the Bible is false, second, you will then believe your internet lover's claims as to what the Bible says, and this is a perfect example. Try to understand this. Adam and Eve BOTH KNEW and HEARD Elohim's command, and there is NOTHING written that would either deny nor affirm this, so we are just speaking of "opinions." Now, you can take this to the bank. Elohim stated that the "man" has BECOME as one of Us, to KNOW good and evil, and I can assure you, that even though the "woman" is not mentioned here, it is for certain that the woman ALSO became like the Elohim, to KNOW good and evil. Ken

I hate your downright lies that belittle the debater of truth IAH
LIKE ELIJAH you fluster and abuse when the facts are stated clearly.
BTW
I don't state all the bible is false..
I have stated it is
dualism,= meaning you can make the bible say 2 things whatsoever your heart desires.
corrupted by man,= a well know fact -read history
filled with contradictions and dung, = a well know fact
the bible is only a road map =YESHUA is our truth and delights to take personal responsibility over our lives. [not the bible]
yet

contains diamonds~~~psalm 23 and proverbs 31 too mention 2 wonderful anointed truths
BTW as we are told to SEEK OUT THE TRUTH and A FIND IT not read it like a library book
infact it is only a road map into the truth as JESUS HIMSELF IS '''THE WAY'''AND ''THE TRUTH''.
unless you have the PERSON CALLED TRUTH indwelling, you have got ''Bucklie's Chance'' of obtaining it,

the torture was there, and injustice prevailed.
either the true facts have been erased or some man made it up so fear and guilt remain food for darkness.
something stinketh Kenny,. and it is NOT your belief/opinions I am interested in and aka your wicked ''eye for an eye'' mentality - that aweful evil just is so rotten and downright ugly.

[ImAHebrew]

Lucy, what facts?

I hate your downright lies that belittle the debater of truth IAH
LIKE ELIJAH you fluster and abuse when the facts are stated clearly.
BTW
I don't state all the bible is false..
I have stated it is
dualism,= meaning you can make the bible say 2 things whatsoever your heart desires.
corrupted by man,= a well know fact -read history
filled with contradictions and dung, = a well know fact
the bible is only a road map =YESHUA is our truth and delights to take personal responsibility over our lives. [not the bible]
yet

contains diamonds~~~psalm 23 and proverbs 31 too mention 2 wonderful anointed truths
BTW as we are told to SEEK OUT THE TRUTH and A FIND IT not read it like a library book
infact it is only a road map into the truth as JESUS HIMSELF IS '''THE WAY'''AND ''THE TRUTH''.
unless you have the PERSON CALLED TRUTH indwelling, you have got ''Bucklie's Chance'' of obtaining it,

the torture was there, and injustice prevailed.
either the true facts have been erased or some man made it up so fear and guilt remain food for darkness.
something stinketh Kenny,. and it is NOT your belief/opinions I am interested in and aka your wicked ''eye for an eye'' mentality - that aweful evil just is so rotten and downright ugly.

Hi Lucy, what facts? Your internet lover claims that Eve never heard the command from Elohim, yet, she died. Didn't your buddy Paul say that where there is no Law, there is no sin/transgression, and IF Elohim did not tell Eve of the command not to eat, then Eve did not transgress, and she should not have died.

And your "diamond" of Psalm 23 is all about Yahweh, who you disdain and say is evil. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Yahweh is to be LOVED and HONORED, or you need to disavow Psa 23 as Him being your Shepard. Ken

[LucySmith]

you look closely at the story, God didn’t give any of the instruction to Eve at all.

Well if you look closely at the story, God didn’t give any of the instruction to Eve at all.

All the instruction was given to Adam regarding the tree:

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat[d] of it you shall surely die.”
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone;
I will make him a helper fit for[e] him.”

(Genesis 2:15–18)