A Short History Of The Sin and Condemnation!

[Spying]

Hi Everyone,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Hospitality is an earmark of the ELOHIM. Both ImAHebrew and myself are excellent cooks. We both can put together very tasty meals. Now, I realize that it is not wise to bear witness to oneself, but no one can outdo ImAHebrew with respect to beef tenderloin. It is the same for me with respect to my favorite steak. As far as I am concerned, there is no beef steak better than a Rib-eye steak. Actually, my favorite meal would involve what is called Prime Rib Beef that is roasted.

Yesterday, I cooked for the homeless couple who occupy a space in my home some beef sirloin steak smothered in Campbell's Soup Golden Mushroom and Campbell's French Onion Soup along with mashed potatoes and green beans sauteed with mushrooms and butter. This meal is absolutely delicious.

My Marine Captain Friend, who is a chef in his own right, taught me how to make mashed potatoes by heating butter and milk for them before attempting to mash them. This is a little secret to making better mashed potatoes. We learn from others as we go through life, do we not?
This thread is not open to folks who do not have any ability to organize and prepare a meal in a physical sense. If you cannot cook in a physical sense, then please stay out of my kitchen and avoid this thread.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

[Spying]

The Origin Of The Sin!

In Romans 5, the Apostle Paul has related to us a short history of the Sin. He says this:

Romans 5:12
12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι᾽ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον

Romans 5:12
12 For this reason, as by one man the Sin entered into the world, and the Death by the Sin; so also did the Death extend to all men, with a view to the fact that all have sinned:

The Apostle Paul simply states here that the Sin originates with the one man Adam, and the Death originates through the Sin. Of course, the Apostle Paul sees a problem in his mind right here because he goes on to relate this to us:

Romans 5:13
13 ἄχρι γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία ἦν ἐν κόσμῳ ἁμαρτία δὲ οὐκ ἐλλογεῖται μὴ ὄντος νόμου (Please notice the absence of definite articles in this sentence!)

Romans 5:13
13 For until law sin was in (the) world, but sin is not counted without an existence of law.

In Paul's mind, not all men and women were guilty of the Sin of Adam which was committed deliberately. Adam was fully aware of what he was doing when he ate of the Tree. This type of sin is spoken about in Numbers 15:31:

31 ὅτι τὸ ῥῆμα κυρίου ἐφαύλισεν καὶ τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ διεσκέδασεν ἐκτρίψει ἐκτριβήσεται ἡ ψυχὴ ἐκείνη ἡ ἁμαρτία αὐτῆς ἐν αὐτῇ

Numbers 15:31
31 because he has set aside the spoken word of YAHWEH and has violently shaken the commandments of HIM: the same soul shall be utterly destroyed, the sin of him (is) in him.

Do deliberate sinners therefore have any hope of salvation? The JW'S say no. According to them, Adam has no chance for salvation. What do you think about yourself? I do not ask this question desiring that anyone should answer. Of course, should you know how to cook; perhaps, you might be moved to attempt to give me an answer concerning yourself . Very few people know how to cook so this table is actually reserved for those folks who desire to learn how to cook. So, it is best that you keep silent and watch others who do know how to cook. YAHWEH knows, you might learn something about yourself in the process of learning how to cook!
Latuwr

[Spying]

The Likeness Of Adam's Transgression!

Let's go on and attempt to follow the teaching or if you will the recipe of the Apostle Paul. Here is the Greek of Romans 5:14:
ἀλλ᾽ ἐβασίλευσεν ὁ θάνατος ἀπὸ Ἀδὰμ μέχρι Μωσέως καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς μὴ ἁμαρτήσαντας ἐπὶ τῷ ὁμοιώματι τῆς παραβάσεως Ἀδάμ ὅς ἐστιν τύπος τοῦ μέλλοντος

From Romans 5:13, it is very clear that Paul understands that sin is not counted where Law does not exist. Then in verse 14, Paul states the actual record. He recognizes that the Death reigned from Adam to Moses. Why would the Death reign over everyone if sin is not counted where the Law does not exist? Why therefore did the Death reign? The Apostle further qualifies the reign of the Death by recognizing that the Death even reigned over those who had not sinned with the likeness of the transgression of Adam (ἐπὶ τῷ ὁμοιώματι τῆς παραβάσεως Ἀδάμ). Obviously, deliberate sinners deserve to die, but every sinner died from Adam to Moses, and not all sin has the death penalty. This is made certain and clear from Numbers 15:27-28. Involuntary sin can be atoned for. According to the Law, the unintentional sinner can bring a sacrifice to atone for his or her sin. So, why did all sinners physically die from Adam to Moses?

Please notice above that biblical Greek in verse 14 has a word for transgression. That word is G3847 παράβασις with the definite article. If I may ask, if someone instructed you to add παράβασις to a meal, why would you depart from the recipe and add G458 ἀνομία? Are these two spices interchangeable in your mind?

[Spying]

Adam Is A Type Of The Messiah!

Adam is a type of the coming one, that is, Adam is a type of the Messiah.
What does the Apostle Paul mean by this statement? In what way is Adam typical of Messiah Yahushua?

Let's take a look at a Greek version of Romans 5:15:

15 Ἀλλ οὐχ ὡς τὸ παράπτωμα οὕτως καὶ τὸ χάρισμα εἰ γὰρ τῷ τοῦ ἑνὸς παραπτώματι οἱ πολλοὶ ἀπέθανον πολλῷ μᾶλλον ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ἡ δωρεὰ ἐν χάριτι τῇ τοῦ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς τοὺς πολλοὺς ἐπερίσσευσεν

And here is the English translation of the KJV of Romans 5:15:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of the ELOHIM, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Yahushua Messiah, hath abounded unto many.

Please notice how the English translators begin in verse 15 to show how Adam is an antitype of Messiah Yahushua rather than a type. In my humble opinion, these words at the beginning of verse 15 should have actually ended verse 14:

Ἀλλ οὐχ ὡς τὸ παράπτωμα οὕτως καὶ τὸ χάρισμα

If the organizers of the New Testament writings into chapter and verses had done so, then it could have been more easily seen and understood what the Apostle Paul was actually saying in his comments. I understand the Apostle Paul to actually be saying this:

Adam is a type of Messiah, but not with respect to the Offence, rather Adam is a type through the Free Gift.

Please allow this understanding to enter your thinking before we go on with the rest of Romans 5. What the Apostle Paul is actually expressing is that Adam cannot be a type of the Messiah through his Offence. This is true because Messiah Yahushua did not engage in any Offence. So, if you desire to see the type then you must look at the free gift that each gave to mankind. Adam gave mankind the free gift of death, and Messiah Yahushua gave to mankind the free gift of life. May you each be blessed to have this truth sink into your understanding!
Latuwr

[Spying]

Follow The Type, That Is, What Is Given!

There is a whole lot expressed in verse 16 that is difficult to understand. Paul desires that you keep your focus on what is given by both Adam and Yahushua rather than upon the particulars concerning various sins so that you might understand that both Messiah Yahushua and Adam ultimately gave mankind a gift.

Here is the KJV of Romans 5:16:
Romans 5:16
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

And here is a Greek version of that verse:

Romans 5:16
16 καὶ οὐχ ὡς δι᾽ ἑνὸς ἁμαρτήσαντος τὸ δώρημα τὸ μὲν γὰρ κρίμα ἐξ ἑνὸς εἰς κατάκριμα τὸ δὲ χάρισμα ἐκ πολλῶν παραπτωμάτων εἰς δικαίωμα

And here is my feeble attempt to translate what Paul is attempting to communicate to us all:

Romans 5:16
16 And the free gift is not just through the fact that only one did sin; for on the one hand the judgment is from one (having sinned) unto condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious free gift is from many offences unto an acquittal.

The Apostle Paul did want us all to understand that the type between Adam and Messiah Yahushua is not based upon the fact all men did sin; rather, it is based upon the fact that both men gave a great gift to mankind. This verse actually tells us that the source of acquittal is the offences of us all!

I know, please chew the cud on what I have expressed here. This is necessary for your ultimate salvation!
Latuwr

[Eliyah]

There is a whole lot expressed in verse 16 that is difficult to understand. Paul desires that you keep your focus on what is given by both Adam and Yahushua rather than upon the particulars concerning various sins so that you might understand that both Messiah Yahushua and Adam ultimately gave mankind a gift.

Here is the KJV of Romans 5:16:
Romans 5:16
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

And here is a Greek version of that verse:

Romans 5:16
16 καὶ οὐχ ὡς δι᾽ ἑνὸς ἁμαρτήσαντος τὸ δώρημα τὸ μὲν γὰρ κρίμα ἐξ ἑνὸς εἰς κατάκριμα τὸ δὲ χάρισμα ἐκ πολλῶν παραπτωμάτων εἰς δικαίωμα

And here is my feeble attempt to translate what Paul is attempting to communicate to us all:

Romans 5:16
16 And the free gift is not just through the fact that only one did sin; for on the one hand the judgment is from one (having sinned) unto condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious free gift is from many offences unto an acquittal.

The Apostle Paul did want us all to understand that the type between Adam and Messiah Yahushua is not based upon the fact all men did sin; rather, it is based upon the fact that both men gave a great gift to mankind. This verse actually tells us that the source of acquittal is the offences of us all!

I know, please chew the cud on what I have expressed here. This is necessary for your ultimate salvation!
Latuwr

Spying,

You and Ken are believing and teaching the man of sin doctrines, you believe that sin is the source of grace, when in fact grace comes from Yah Elohim the Father, Ken believes that sin is turned into righteousness, when in fact the righteousness of Elohim is a free gift too.

So to the BOTH of YOU, sin is grace, sin is righteousness, but the truth is, that sin is UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now let's follow your ideas ABOUT THE SCRIPTURES to its source and conclusion, if sin is grace, and sin is righteousness, then why was this not applied to Adam, and the devil himself when he sinned?

Old buddy, the devil loves your doctrines, because evidently he too believes, that his sin is really righteousness, and that Yah Elohim will show grace on him too.

Now, you said in another thread:

I Am Messiah

Messiah Himself warned of those who would claim this:

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ=Messiah; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8.

Others can see here:http://www.blbclassic.org/search/tra...m+Christ&t=KJV

[Eliyah]

There is a whole lot expressed in verse 16 that is difficult to understand. Paul desires that you keep your focus on what is given by both Adam and Yahushua rather than upon the particulars concerning various sins so that you might understand that both Messiah Yahushua and Adam ultimately gave mankind a gift.

Here is the KJV of Romans 5:16:
Romans 5:16
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

And here is a Greek version of that verse:

Romans 5:16
16 καὶ οὐχ ὡς δι᾽ ἑνὸς ἁμαρτήσαντος τὸ δώρημα τὸ μὲν γὰρ κρίμα ἐξ ἑνὸς εἰς κατάκριμα τὸ δὲ χάρισμα ἐκ πολλῶν παραπτωμάτων εἰς δικαίωμα

And here is my feeble attempt to translate what Paul is attempting to communicate to us all:

Romans 5:16
16 And the free gift is not just through the fact that only one did sin; for on the one hand the judgment is from one (having sinned) unto condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious free gift is from many offences unto an acquittal.

The Apostle Paul did want us all to understand that the type between Adam and Messiah Yahushua is not based upon the fact all men did sin; rather, it is based upon the fact that both men gave a great gift to mankind. This verse actually tells us that the source of acquittal is the offences of us all!

I know, please chew the cud on what I have expressed here. This is necessary for your ultimate salvation!
Latuwr

Spying,

Where in this verse did Paul say, that sin is a free gift?

Sin entered into the natural world through Adam and Eve, but who really sinned from the beginning?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,

So where did sin originate from? The devil.

[LucySmith]

well NO not exactly.....

So where did sin originate from? The devil.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


BTW, this is the true translation from the Hebrew word of "ra-ah"(resh ayin hey) which means "evil".
All of the other later translations of the Bible from the Hebrew tried to find another word in English in order to get around this.
Notice that it is in the PRESENT tense.
That means that God is CONTINUALLY creating evil, even now!

perhaps this is the OT gods....those men/beings with ancient technology ????
so opposite to ABBA, the father of Yeshua in kind and character????

[Eliyah]

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


BTW, this is the true translation from the Hebrew word of "ra-ah"(resh ayin hey) which means "evil".
All of the other later translations of the Bible from the Hebrew tried to find another word in English in order to get around this.
Notice that it is in the PRESENT tense.
That means that God is CONTINUALLY creating evil, even now!

perhaps this is the OT gods....those men/beings with ancient technology ????
so opposite to ABBA, the father of Yeshua in kind and character????

Lucy,

Yahweh only created evil indirectly, because He originally created Lucifer who became the devil, but Yahweh never directly created evil nor SIN, as there is no sin in Yahweh nor Messiah and they cannot sin. 1 John 3:9.

[Eliyah]

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


BTW, this is the true translation from the Hebrew word of "ra-ah"(resh ayin hey) which means "evil".
All of the other later translations of the Bible from the Hebrew tried to find another word in English in order to get around this.
Notice that it is in the PRESENT tense.
That means that God is CONTINUALLY creating evil, even now!

perhaps this is the OT gods....those men/beings with ancient technology ????
so opposite to ABBA, the father of Yeshua in kind and character????

That's it Lucy, put all the blame of SIN on Yahweh, instead of putting the blame on your "father" the devil, whom the scriptures says, that SINNED FROM THE BEGINNING eh?

I can't help but smile.

[LucySmith]

the devil is a created being = who created this being?

That's it Lucy, put all the blame of SIN on Yahweh, instead of putting the blame on your "father" the devil, whom the scriptures says, that SINNED FROM THE BEGINNING eh?

I can't help but smile.

I know it is a bit difficult ElijH SIGH

poor Elijah fails again to use his 2 brain cells....and ofcourse denies scriptures.... with his own ideas - which he always ACCUSERS OTHERS OF DOING = this man is MENTALLY sick
BTW

the devils aka WAS NEVER called LUCIFER = wrong again DEAD MAN go back and LEARN forgoodness sake

[Eliyah]

I know it is a bit difficult ElijH SIGH

poor Elijah fails again to use his 2 brain cells....and ofcourse denies scriptures.... with his own ideas - which he always ACCUSERS OTHERS OF DOING = this man is MENTALLY sick

Lucy, I never asked the question who created evil, as you changed my question to.

Yah Elohim NEVER sinned, and cannot. 1 John 3:9

The devil DID SIN from the beginning John 8:44; 1 John 3:8.

I believe the scripture, and NOT your twisted minded questions and answers.

[Eliyah]

the devil is a created being = who created this being?

Lucy,

Yah Elohim created YOU, when YOU SIN, does this mean that Yahweh Elohim is sinning too, or is it you sinning?

If you have any brain cells, as you call it, your certainly not using them eh?

[LucySmith]

. lesson 1 - put brain into gear....

well NO not exactly.....
Elijah 1 st lesson...

So where did sin originate from? The devil. Isaiah 45:7

(King James Version):


well NO not exactly.....
so what does the OT god say.....................
'' I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.''


BTW,
this is the true translation from the Hebrew word of "ra-ah"(resh ayin hey) which means "evil".
All of the other later translations of the Bible from the Hebrew tried to find another word in English in order to get around this.
Notice that it is in the PRESENT tense.
That means that God is CONTINUALLY creating evil, even now!

perhaps this is the OT gods....those men/beings with ancient technology ????
so opposite to ABBA, the father of Yeshua in kind and character????

the creator of evil was this OT god.........................he confesses it. He is called THE LORD.
SO Elijah why are you in denial????
perhaps because a dualism is found and you cannot handle it.... dualism = you can make the bible mean anything you want.... because there are 1000+ examples of contradictions.... making it a man made writ and not fully inspired

[Eliyah]

well NO not exactly.....
Elijah 1 st lesson... (King James Version):


well NO not exactly.....
so what does the OT god say.....................
'' I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.''


BTW,
this is the true translation from the Hebrew word of "ra-ah"(resh ayin hey) which means "evil".
All of the other later translations of the Bible from the Hebrew tried to find another word in English in order to get around this.
Notice that it is in the PRESENT tense.
That means that God is CONTINUALLY creating evil, even now!

perhaps this is the OT gods....those men/beings with ancient technology ????
so opposite to ABBA, the father of Yeshua in kind and character????

the creator of evil was this OT god.........................he confesses it. He is called THE LORD.
SO Elijah why are you in denial????
perhaps because a dualism is found and you cannot handle it.... dualism = you can make the bible mean anything you want.... because there are 1000+ examples of contradictions.... making it a man made writ and not fully inspired

Lucy,

So according to your thinking, since Yah Elohim created the devil to begin with, that it was Yah Elohim who also caused the devil to sin from the beginning too eh?

PS: I thought you did not believe the O T ?