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OS Answer #6 -- The Untold Story of the Crucifixion…

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  • OS Answer #6 -- The Untold Story of the Crucifixion…

    (6) My question and comments about crucifixion.

    "This is definitely not the idea of salvation portrayed in the Tanakh. As you can probably tell, Jesus Christ suffering hardly amounts to a slap on the wrist compared to what the Jews have suffered under Christianity."

    Tell me about a "slap on the wrist" the next time you get nailed to a cross. Or better yet, nail your hand/wrist to a 50 pound plank, do about 10 sets of bicep curls, and tell us how insignificant it is. I will answer this more fully on my thread. "Persecution."
    I’m sorry, Old Shep, but I am not into any heavy stuff like that. You are saying that the agony of millions of Jews suffering martyrdom at the hands of the Christians throughout history is nothing compared to the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross? I heard of Philipino Christians getting nailed to the cross on Easter holidays. I think that if they can do it then anybody can.

    Please Old Shep, don’t forget that Paul had to finish the suffering started by Jesus Christ. I really need to relate all the events leading to the crucifixion to estimate not only the physical, but also the emotional pain involved. He probably hurt more thinking about “dying for the Jews” or the nation of Israel than from anything else. He sweated blood when he saw what was coming to him. He prayed to “pass the cup.” He had second thoughts about dying for anybody. He confessed before Pontius that his kingdom was not of this world, but of somewhere else. So he really wasn’t dying for any entity here on Earth. The writer of the Book of Hebrews stated that Jesus Christ was relieved from suffering any big deal. Let’s be fair to the NT. I know that the idea was to accommodate Paul in the picture as a helpful hand in the saving of the “church.” Paul claims to have successfully completed in his own body the suffering started by Jesus Christ.

    Notice carefully how Jesus Christ is not eager to do “his father’s will” of dying for the guilty or whoever. He must have known that it is against HaTorah. Although I believe that the writers of the NT wanted to dramatize the scenario of his crucifixion and spiked the story showing a scared Jesus Christ unwilling to die for anybody. He already had the Jews condemned to serve forever in Dante’s Inferno. So what’s the point in “saving” Jews. This is the trend of the rest of the NT. No wonder the Koran welcomes Jesus Christ as a great prophet.

    Matthew 23:33 (NIV) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
    35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
    36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


    Here we know the true character of Jesus Christ because when his planned death was still far into the future he was bragging about being a very “macho” man to take it. He chewed Peter for saying that he shall never be put to death, but when his death was imminent he started to sweat blood. Peter never believed in a dying messiah. Jesus Christ was also bragging about his idea of dying. He said to have authority to die or not to die. In fact, he also bragged that “his father” loved him because he came up with the idea of dying “for the sheep,” but when the time was up, he chickened out and started to ask “his father” to bail him out. He didn’t have to die, anyway. He had all the authority to do what he wanted to do. At least that is what Jesus Christ was bragging about. There was no coordinated effort to write the NT that is why it is so screwed up. I’ll stop using the word “dysfunctional” because I see that you don’t like it.

    Matthew 16:21 (NIV) From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
    22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
    23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

    John 10:17 (NIV) The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again.
    18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
    (i.e. he already had “permission” not to die).

    Matthew 26:38 (NIV) Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
    39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
    40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
    41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
    42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
    44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

    Mark 14:36 (NIV) "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

    Luke 22:42 (WEY) "Father, if it be Thy will, take this cup away from me; yet not my will but Thine be done!"
    43 And there appeared to Him an angel from Heaven, strengthening Him;
    44 while He--an agony of distress having come upon Him--prayed all the more with intense earnestness, and His sweat became like clots of blood dropping on the ground.

    Hebrews 5:7 (NIV) During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

    Colossians 1:24 (NIV) Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

    Galatians 6:17 (NIV) Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus
    (i.e. the stigmata).

    Old Shep, I don’t see anywhere in the Tanakh the need that an innocent person die sacrificially for any guilty party at the hands of Roman soldiers and to resurrect on the 3rd day. This stuff is NT prophecy written many years after the death of Jesus Christ.

    In summary, Jesus Christ was bragging about having the authority to die and to resurrect on the 3rd day, but when the time was up for him to die he chickened out. He started to ask “his father” to bail him out. He forgot that the reason that “his father” loved him was because of his own idea of dying for the sheep. BTW, the sheep is doing well. They are still being fleeced.

    Jesus Christ asked “his father,” "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me…" he didn’t want to hang on the cross, and he started to sweat blood. He even wanted to have his disciples pray with him about it. Then he really blew it before Pontius Pilate. Jesus Christ denies that his kingdom was of this world and whines to the Roman authority that if his kingdom were of this world he would have servants to prevent his arrest by the Jews, but now [forget it] his kingdom is from somewhere else. Hey, now I know why there are so many words in brackets in the KJV. Anyway, Jesus Christ doesn’t even recognize the effort of his ear-cuter disciples that they put up an armed resistance to his arrest.

    John 18:36 (NIV) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

    On his way to Calvary someone else is carrying his cross. In the past Jesus Christ used to teach that each one should carry hi/her own cross. Well, executive privileges, I guess. Jesus Christ has time for a last prophetic sermon. He is not telling anybody, hey, I am dying for you, but instead he is preaching that they should cry for themselves [because there is no hope] that whatever is coming to them is much worse than his suffering. So much for a messiah! Jesus Christ missed an excellent opportunity here to advertise his brand of salvation, but his mind was elsewhere, I guess. At the last moment he shouts to “his father,” “why did you forsake me?” Well I can think a few reasons why, but I better cool off. Of course, it is all a story clumsily put together by the NT writers many years after the facts.

    Luke 23:27 (NIV) A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him.
    28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
    29 For the time will come when you will say, `Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!'
    30 Then "`they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" '
    31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
    (Hey, what is he whining about? Was he talking about the crosses?)

    There is something wrong in the story of Jesus Christ and it doesn’t have anything to do with me. I just pay attention to what I read. You notice that I do not quote the Talmud, or any other source. I learned to stay away from the early Christian church fathers, too. I am using fundamentalist documentation right out of the NT.
    Last edited by Stranger; 09-18-2001, 07:14 AM.
    "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

  • #2
    You are saying that the agony of millions of Jews suffering martyrdom at the hands of the Christians throughout history is nothing compared to the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross?

    I never said anything about millions of Jews. What does one thing have to do with the other? Are you saying that the millions of Hittites, Amorites, Hivites, Canaananites, etc. which were slaughtered by the Jews are nothing?

    I heard of Philipino Christians getting nailed to the cross on Easter holidays. I think that if they can do it then anybody can.

    You mention some piece of dog puke you heard, or read, somewhere or other, but you are incapable of producing any documentary evidence. The bottom line is you keep blowing off crucifixion but cannot prove anything you say. I could link to some online documentation, conducted under controlled academic conditions, but it only confirms that you are lying.

    Please Old Shep, don’t forget that Paul had to finish the suffering started by Jesus Christ. Paul claims to have successfully completed in his own body the suffering started by Jesus Christ.

    No where in the N.T,. is it ever stated that Paul or anyone else had to complete anything for Jesus. “Lacking” in Colossians 1:24 refers back to Paul’s flesh, not to Jesus’ afflictions. Anyone with a real MDiv would know that. When someone changes religion, does that entail becoming brain dead? Therefore you are either lying about your education or deliberately lying about this passage.
    Now I rejoice} (\nun chairomen\). This is not a new note for Paul. See him in jail in Philippi (#Ac 16:25) and in #2Co 11:16-33; Ro 5:3; Php 2:18. {Fill up on my part} (\antanaplêrô\). Very rare double compound verb (here only in N.T.) to fill (\plêroô\) up (\ana\), in turn (\anti\). It is now Paul’s "turn" at the bat, to use a baseball figure. Christ had his "turn," the grandest of all and suffered for us all in a sense not true of any one else. It is the idea of balance or correspondence in \anti\ as seen in Demosthenes’s use of this verb (_De Symm_., p. 282), "the poor balancing the rich." And yet Christ did not cause suffering to cease. There is plenty left for Paul and for each of us in his time. {That which is lacking} (\ta husterêmata\). "The left-overs," so to speak. Late word from \hustereô\, to come behind, to be left, to fail. See #Lu 21:4; 1Th 3:10; 2Co 8:14; 9:12. {For his body’s sake} (\huper tou sômatos autou\). As Paul showed in his exultation in suffering in #2Co 11:16-33, though not in the same sense in which Christ suffered and died for us as Redeemer. Paul attaches no atoning value whatever to his own sufferings for the church (see also verse #18).(Robertson’s Word Pictures in the N.T.)
    BTW, A. T. Robertson taught post grad Biblical Greek for 47 years. When you can approach his qualifications, then I might listen to you, over him.

    Colossians 1:24 (NIV) Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

    The writer of the Book of Hebrews stated that Jesus Christ was relieved from suffering any big deal. Let’s be fair to the NT.

    Where does Hebrews state “that Jesus Christ was relieved from suffering? You once again are demonstrating your complete lack of integrity, dishonesty, and inability to read English, or the Biblical languages. He prayed to be, and was, saved from death.

    Hebrews 5:7 (NIV) During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
    An allusion to the Agony of Christ in Gethsemane. {Supplications} (|hiketêrias|). Socrates, Polybius, Job (#Job 40:22) combine this word with |deêseis| (prayers) as here. The older form was |hikesia|. The word |hiketêrios| is an adjective from |hiketês (a suppliant from |hikô|, to come to one) and suggests one coming with an olive-branch (|elaia|). Here only in the N.T. {With strong crying and tears} (|meta kraugês ischuras kai dakruôn|). See #Lu 22:44. for a picture of the scene in Gethsemane (anguish and pathos). No doubt the writer has in mind other times when Jesus shed tears (#Joh 11:35; Lu 19:41), but Gethsemane chiefly. {To save him from death} (|sôzein ek thanatou|).
    I know that the idea was to accommodate Paul in the picture as a helpful hand in the saving of the “church.”

    More of your dog puke opinion presented as fact. How do you "know", were you there?

    Notice carefully how Jesus Christ is not eager to do “his father’s will” of dying for the guilty or whoever. He must have known that it is against HaTorah.

    Do you have proof that it is against HaTorah?

    Although I believe that the writers of the NT wanted to dramatize the scenario of his crucifixion and spiked the story showing a scared Jesus Christ unwilling to die for anybody.

    Notice how your posts are full of vague allegations and assertions such as “I believe”, “I think”, “I heard”, “I know” If I were going to listen to the dog puke opinions of some puffed up, self aggrandizing, wannabe it certainly wouldn’t be anyone who has changed religions three times.

    He already had the Jews condemned to serve forever in Dante’s Inferno. So what’s the point in “saving” Jews.

    Another dog puke lie! I have asked you before Lou, can you read and comprehend the English language? Evidently not. You listed Matt 23:33-36 as your “proof texts” By posting only those verses you try to make it appear that Jesus is condemning all the Jews in the world. You deliberately omitted the four preceding verses because they prove you to be the liar that you are.

    Verse 29 shows who Jesus is talking to, scribes and Pharisees, not all of Israel! In this verse Jesus calls the scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. In verse 33, as he continues speaking to only the scribes and Pharisees, he further calls them You serpents, you generation of vipers. And finally in verse 36, only four sentences later, he tells this same group, he has been talking to all along, that all the misfortune he has mentioned in the preceding verses shall come upon this generation of hypocritical scribes and Pharisees. All Jews are never addressed or included in this conversation!

    Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


    Which generation? The scribes and Pharisees who he called a "generation of vipers" in verse 33! Once again you are proven to be a liar. Notice Lou how every post is filled with misquotes, out-of-context quotes, and out and out lies. You are a pathological liar, incapable of telling the truth. Where I come from we have a saying, "You'd rather walk across the steet and tell a lie, than stand still and tell the truth."

    Here we know the true character of Jesus Christ because when his planned death was still far into the future he was bragging about being a very “macho” man to take it. He chewed Peter for saying that he shall never be put to death, but when his death was imminent he started to sweat blood. Peter never believed in a dying messiah. Jesus Christ was also bragging about his idea of dying. He said to have authority to die or not to die. In fact, he also bragged that “his father” loved him because he came up with the idea of dying “for the sheep,” but when the time was up, he chickened out and started to ask “his father” to bail him out. He didn’t have to die, anyway. He had all the authority to do what he wanted to do. At least that is what Jesus Christ was bragging about.

    Notice how, according to you, Jesus and Paul never simply speak. They are always either “whining” or “bragging”. Except for Jesus, when he was on the cross he supposedly was either, “shrieking”, “shouting”, or “gasping for breath and unable to speak at all” depending which version of your lie you are telling at the time.

    (To Be Continued)

    Last edited by OldShepherd; 09-24-2001, 05:00 AM.
    Nullus Frigidus Auxilium Gratia
    Zaqunra'ahyahuw

    Comment


    • #3
      There was no coordinated effort to write the NT that is why it is so screwed up. I’ll stop using the word “dysfunctional” because I see that you don’t like it.

      Would you please tell us about the “coordinated effort” to write the Tanakh? For example I posted three contradictions in the Tanakh on an earlier thread, and I have asked you about other similar problems in the Tanakh before but as always you never respond.

      You are constantly whining about Jesus calling Peter, Satan in Matt 16:23. What language was Jesus speaking? In Hebrew, Satan means adversary. In Numbers 22 even the Angel of YHWH is called Satan twice! Once the Angel refers to himself as Satan” This is another misquoted/out-of-context proof text that does not prove what you claim it does.
      There are two words which are translated boast in the N.T., since neither of those words are used in these passages that makes you a liar

      Can you tell us from your infinite knowledge of the Greek language can you exegete the words in these various passages and confirm that they are “whining” or “bragging” and what forms of the various verbs which would indicate they were merely declaratory or exclamatory sentences?

      Numbers 22:22 And God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (Satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

      Numbers 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand (Satan) thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

      2 Sam 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries (Satan) unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?

      1 King 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary (Satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king’s seed in Edom.


      Luke 22:42 (WEY) "Father, if it be Thy will, take this cup away from me; yet not my will but Thine be done!"
      43 And there appeared to Him an angel from Heaven, strengthening Him;
      44 while He--an agony of distress having come upon Him--prayed all the more with intense earnestness, and His sweat became like clots of blood dropping on the ground.


      Please explain why all your quotes are from the NIV except for this one?

      Galatians 6:17 (NIV) Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus (i.e. the stigmata).
      "From henceforth} (\tou loipou\). Usually \to loipon\, the accusative of general reference, "as for the rest" (#Php 3:1; 4:8). The genitive case (as here and #Eph 6:10) means "in respect of the remaining time." {The marks of Jesus} (\ta stigmata tou Iêsou\). Old word from \stizô\, to prick, to stick, to sting. Slaves had the names or stamp of their owners on their bodies."
      (Robertson's Word Pictures in the N.T.)
      Paul bore in his body the marks of a servant/slave of Jesus Christ. He consistently referred to himself as a slave.

      "Old Shep, I don’t see anywhere in the Tanakh the need that an innocent person die sacrificially for any guilty party at the hands of Roman soldiers and to resurrect on the 3rd day. This stuff is NT prophecy written many years after the death of Jesus Christ."

      Again evidence of your complete lack of integrity. Show me any passage of scripture which states Jesus was a sacrifice for sin. I know that you know that is a total lie.

      Let us see your evidence that it was written many years after the death of Jesus. Can you tell us if Moses was around at the creation? He wrote about it!

      "Luke 23:27 (NIV) A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him.
      28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
      29 For the time will come when you will say, `Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!'
      30 Then "`they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" '
      31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
      (Hey, what is he whining about? Was he talking about the crosses?)"

      There is that undocumented allegation of whining, again. You should stop your whining and read the referencesfor this statement.

      Isa 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD."

      Ho 10:8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us."
      The children of men are, by the Jews, in their writings, called, "dry trees" {u}; the Targumist on #Eze 17:24 paraphrases the words thus;
      “I have humbled the kingdom of the nations, which was strong as
      a green tree, and I have strengthened the kingdom of the house
      of Israel, which was weak as a dry tree.”
      It is a common proverb with the Jews {x};
      “two dry sticks, or brands, and one green, the dry burn up the
      green:”
      intimating, that a few righteous persons among wicked men suffer with them; but if righteous men suffer, how much more the wicked?
      {u} Zohar in Lev. fol. 14. 2.
      {x} T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 93. 1.
      One final point Lou, "which you ignored on another several other threads. You are a dog puke liar and will remain one as long as you violate Torah, and remain married to a “strange, i.e. Christian, wife” Note this is also documented.

      "I hate no Christian. My wife is a Christian and I love her. Many of my relatives are Christians. I get along well with them. They are very upset with me because I will never attend a Christian worship service again.""

      http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/002010-9.html

      Ezra 10:18 And among the sons of the priests there were found that had taken strange wives: namely, of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren; Maaseiah, and Eliezer, and Jarib, and Gedaliah.
      19 And they gave their hands that they would put away their wives; and being guilty, they offered a ram of the flock for their trespass.

      Pr 2:16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;

      Pr 5:20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

      As I documented on an earlier post, if you violate one point of Torah, you are in violation of the entire Torah. No exceptions! When you obey Torah, then you might have some credibility to criticize others."

      Lou it ain't going away, since you want to dictate to others obedience to Torah, you need to clean up your own house first. If you don't you are worse than an infidel!
      Last edited by OldShepherd; 09-24-2001, 04:14 AM.
      Nullus Frigidus Auxilium Gratia
      Zaqunra'ahyahuw

      Comment


      • #4
        Old Shep...

        ”You are saying that the agony of millions of Jews suffering martyrdom at the hands of the Christians throughout history is nothing compared to the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross?”

        I never said anything about millions of Jews. What does one thing have to do with the other? Apples and oranges. Are you saying that the millions of Hittites, Amorites, Canaananites, etc. which were slaughtered by the Jews are nothing?
        You were comparing pain. The suffering of Jesus Christ is a joke in comparison to what Israel suffered in the last 2000 years. That is what I meant as evidence that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 must be Israel and not Jesus Christ.
        "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

        Comment


        • #5
          Old Shep...

          ”I heard of Philipino Christians getting nailed to the cross on Easter holidays. I think that if they can do it then anybody can.”

          You are always talking about some piece of dog puke you heard, or read somewhere or other but you seem to be incapable of producing any documentary evidence. The bottom line is you keep blowing off crucifixion but have no proof of anything you say. I could point you to some online documentation which was conducted under controlled academic conditions but it only confirms that you are lying.
          OK, Old Shep, I concede on this one. I watched it on TV with my wife, the Christian lady I told you about. They were showing a documentary on Easter celebrations around the world. I guess you can dig that one for yourself. I am not interested in pursuing this one. I still believe that Jesus Christ hardly suffered a slap on his wrist. A few smacks of a Roman cat-of-9-tails on his butt. A few slaps on his face. They did dump a whole bunch of Roman spit on him, though. A crown of thistles. They even gave him a break, the Romans were kind enough to pick someone from the crowd of followers that Jesus Christ had waiting outside to carry his cross. He must have waived his right to carry his own cross because he was not following anyone. He even had time to do a last minute preaching to the crowd of Jews following him. It is a shame that he missed the opportunity to tell them that he was dying for them, oops sorry, I forgot that he said that his kingdom was not of this world, and that he had no servants here, and that his kingdom was from somewhere else. He got me fooled. I thought that the Jew who was carrying the cross for him was his servant.

          It wasn’t that bad for Jesus Christ, after all. Contrary to my earlier estimates, the evidence in the NT shows that he had plenty of breathing room while hanging on the cross to comfortably discuss the plan of salvation with the "good thief." He was successful, the "good thief" end up inviting Jesus Christ in his heart. After a short while Jesus Christ gives up the ghost to the surprise of Pontius who thought that he couldn’t have died so quickly. He even had to check with an assistant to make sure Jesus Christ was really dead. So he hardly suffered anything. Let's be realistic, Old Shep. You can bring the experts to explain how tough was a crucifixion in those days, but they won't wipe the record in the gospels that Jesus Christ hardly suffered any pain, except for feeling thirsty. The Roman soldiers were kind enough to give him a shot of fermented vinager that they had at hand for such occasions and that's about it.
          "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

          Comment


          • #6
            Old Shep...

            ”Please Old Shep, don’t forget that Paul had to finish the suffering started by Jesus Christ. Paul claims to have successfully completed in his own body the suffering started by Jesus Christ.”


            No where in the N.T,. is it ever stated that Paul or anyone else had to complete anything for Jesus. “Lacking” in Colossians 1:24 refers back to Paul’s flesh, not to Jesus’ afflictions. This is something that anyone with a real MDiv would know. When someone changes religion, does that entail becoming brain dead? Therefore you are either lying about your education or deliberately lying about this passage.

            Now I rejoice} (\nun chairomen\). This is not a new note for Paul. See him in jail in Philippi (#Ac 16:25) and in #2Co 11:16-33; Ro 5:3; Php 2:18. {Fill up on my part} (\antanaplêrô\). Very rare double compound verb (here only in N.T.) to fill (\plêroô\) up (\ana\), in turn (\anti\). It is now Paul’s "turn" at the bat, to use a baseball figure. Christ had his "turn," the grandest of all and suffered for us all in a sense not true of any one else. It is the idea of balance or correspondence in \anti\ as seen in Demosthenes’s use of this verb (_De Symm_., p. 282), "the poor balancing the rich." And yet Christ did not cause suffering to cease. There is plenty left for Paul and for each of us in his time. {That which is lacking} (\ta husterêmata\). "The left-overs," so to speak. Late word from \hustereô\, to come behind, to be left, to fail. See #Lu 21:4; 1Th 3:10; 2Co 8:14; 9:12. {For his body’s sake} (\huper tou sômatos autou\). As Paul showed in his exultation in suffering in #2Co 11:16-33, though not in the same sense in which Christ suffered and died for us as Redeemer. Paul attaches no atoning value whatever to his own sufferings for the church (see also verse #18).(Robertson’s Word Pictures in the N.T.)

            BTW, A. T. Robertson taught post grad Biblical Greek for 47 years. When you can approach his qualifications then I'll listen to you over him.

            Colossians 1:24 (NIV) Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.”
            I see you had to call the shrink. The verse here is very plain without any doctoring.

            Fill up = Complete

            The suffering of Jesus Christ was not complete. Paul had to do it. I know that the literal interpretation doesn’t favor the faith, but that’s the way it is. Some of the translations that I could have used say it much plainer.

            Colossians 1:24 (BBE) Now I have joy in my pain because of you, and in my flesh I undergo whatever is still needed to make the sorrows of Christ complete, for the salvation of his body, the church;

            Colossians 1:24 (WEY) Now I can find joy amid my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my own person whatever is lacking in Christ's afflictions on behalf of His Body, the Church.

            Colossians 1:24 (YLT) I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,


            Definitely! there was something missing or lacking in the sufferings of Jesus Christ that Paul had to complete. The evidence is overwhelming! Old Shep, you need to see it as another big glitch in the NT. If Christians would have admited such a fact from the beginning then Christian mythology would have taken a different turn. Do you think that perhaps Paul blew it when he made such a statement?
            "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

            Comment


            • #7
              Old Shep...

              ”The writer of the Book of Hebrews stated that Jesus Christ was relieved from suffering any big deal. Let’s be fair to the NT.”

              Where does the writer of Hebrews state “that Jesus Christ was relieved from suffering”? You once again are demonstrating your complete lack of integrity, dishonesty and inability to read English, or the Biblical languages. He prayed to be, and was, saved from death.

              Hebrews 5:7 (NIV) During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

              An allusion to the Agony of Christ in Gethsemane. {Supplications} (|hiketêrias|). Socrates, Polybius, Job (#Job 40:22) combine this word with |deêseis| (prayers) as here. The older form was |hikesia|. The word |hiketêrios| is an adjective from |hiketês (a suppliant from |hikô|, to come to one) and suggests one coming with an olive-branch (|elaia|). Here only in the N.T. {With strong crying and tears} (|meta kraugês ischuras kai dakruôn|). See #Lu 22:44. for a picture of the scene in Gethsemane (anguish and pathos). No doubt the writer has in mind other times when Jesus shed tears (#Joh 11:35; Lu 19:41), but Gethsemane chiefly. {To save him from death} (|sôzein ek thanatou|).
              Old Shep, it seems that at the Christian Pantheon in Heaven there was a discussion about who was going to come down to Earth to be sacrificed as a human being to appease the top “God” – Apparently Jesus Christ volunteered knowing what was going to happen to him.

              Hebrews 10:7 (NIV) Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
              8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" although the law required them to be made.
              9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.


              (Hey, wait a minute! who gave Jesus Christ any authority to change anything?! Is Almighty Yahweh taking a back seat just like that??? Is Heaven ruled by the anti-Jew Jesus Christ??? Wowwwwwww! Just think of it! Acording to Christian mythology all this is happening BEFORE Jesus Christ came down to Earth. So when he says that he didn't come to change the Law and the Prophets, HE ALREADY DID! Isn't that sneaky!! Wowwwwww!)

              10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body (i.e. human sacrifice) of Jesus Christ once for all.

              So it is very strange to see Jesus Christ chickening out when his time was up for the sacrifice. Maybe he should have taken some lessons from Bin Laden. I didn't hear reports that any of his terrorists had to sweat blood.

              I am surprised to learn that Jesus Christ did the change in the Law of Yawheh all by himself. It seems that Jesus Christ is tasting his own medicine and he is terrified about it. What I see here is a big big big glitch in the NT. Don't you think so? I see that this verses definitely don’t favor the faith or maybe it does if you subscribe to the Jesus Christ take over of all business matters in Heaven. Well, I see that you had to call the shrink, again. Keep him/her handy, though. There are plenty more dirt to dig out. Let me quote some of the other translations. Not all of them are willing to favor the faith, either, but I don't think that you guys care... I know... I know... I goofed again!

              Hebrews 5:7 (KJV) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

              Hebrews 5:7 (WEY) For Jesus during his earthly life offered up prayers and entreaties, crying aloud and weeping as He pleaded with Him who was able to bring Him in safety out of death, and He was delivered from the terror from which He shrank.

              Hebrews 5:7 (YLT) who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death--with strong crying and tears--having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,

              Hebrews 5:7 (BBE) Who in the days of his flesh, having sent up prayers and requests with strong crying and weeping to him who was able to give him salvation from death, had his prayer answered because of his fear of God.
              "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

              Comment


              • #8
                Old Shep...

                Notice carefully how Jesus Christ is not eager to do “his father’s will” of dying for the guilty or whoever. He must have known that it is against HaTorah.”

                Do you have proof that it is against HaTorah?
                Absolutely!

                Almighty Yahweh doesn’t go for human sacrifice. This idea is a NT fabrication. Although it may be highly altruistic from a human perspective, but to the Almighty it is an abomination that the innocent pay for the sins of someone else.

                John 15:13 (NIV) Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. (i.e. this is a Heathen idea totally anti-Torah)

                Exodus 23:7b * …do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

                Deuteronomy 27:25 * "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person." Then all the people shall say, "so be it!"
                (i.e. Jesus Christ set up and actually begged Judas to go ahead and betray him quickly. He didn’t do anything to stop Judas from committing a crime. He actually became his mentor. This is totally anti-Torah.)

                Psalms 106:38 * They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.
                39 They defiled themselves by what they did; by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
                40 Therefore Yahweh was angry with his people and abhorred his inheritance.
                (i.e. until the Christians came up with the idea that shedding the “innocent” blood of the “son of man” appeases “the father.” This is totally anti-Torah!)

                Proverbs 17:15 * He that justifieth the wicked (i.e. is he Jesus Christ?) , and he that condemneth the righteous, even they both are abomination to Yahweh. (i.e. According to Christian theology, the Almighty shot his own foot.)

                Proverbs 17:26 * To punish a righteous man (i.e. Jesus Christ?) is not good, nor to strike princes (i.e. Jesus Christ?) because of their uprightness. (i.e. no exceptions, “it is no good!”)

                Proverbs 24:24 * Whoever says to the guilty, "You are innocent"-- peoples will curse him and nations denounce him. (i.e. Jesus Christ is due for a lot of cursing. Christianity is basically anti-Torah.)
                "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

                Comment


                • #9
                  Old Shep...

                  ”He already had the Jews condemned to serve forever in Dante’s Inferno. So what’s the point in “saving” Jews.”


                  Another dog puke lie! I have asked you before Lou, can you read and comprehend the English language? Evidently not. You listed Matt 23:33-36 as your “proof texts” By posting only those verses you try to make it appear that Jesus is condemning all the Jews in the world. You deliberately omitted the four preceding verses because they show you to be the liar that you are.

                  Verse 29 shows who Jesus is talking to, scribes and Pharisees, not all of Israel! In this verse Jesus calls the scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. In verse 33, as he continues speaking to only the scribes and Pharisees, he further calls them You serpents, you generation of vipers. And finally in verse 36 he tells this same group, he has been talking to all along, that all the misfortune he has mentioned in the preceding verses shall come upon this generation of hypocritical scribes and Pharisees. All Jews are never addressed or included in this conversation!

                  Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
                  30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
                  31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
                  32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
                  33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
                  34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
                  35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
                  36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

                  Which generation? The scribes and Pharisees who he called a "generation of vipers" in verse 33! Once again you are proven to be a liar. Notice Lou how every post is filled with misquotes, out-of-context quotes and out and out lies.
                  They were Jews! Weren’t they? Jesus Christ attacked the Jews. He didn’t attack Greek philosophers. Saint John declares the Jews' relationship to Almighty Yahweh null and void from the beginning of his gospel and he opens the gates for a new family relationship that includes anybody willing to believe.

                  John 1:11 (NIV) He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
                  12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—


                  This declaration is a slap at Almighty Yahweh. Yahweh declared that Israel is his first born son without any condition. He even said that the relationship of Israel with Almighty Yahweh is eternal. The Jews know that, but the NT writers just don’t like the Jews. Jesus Christ is quoted saying that the Jews are the “sons of the devil.” He also says that HE is the only son of the Almighty. Paul follows the same thread, too. In essense Paul is saying to forget about what Yahweh was saying that Israel is his firstborn son, now there is a new family relationship and Jesus Christ is the real firstborn of many brothers. Just believe it! Obviously this is a major glitch in the NT. They forgot to mention that the Almighty was saying all that. That would have given the switch a bit more credibility. It would have fooled me, too! I honestly don’t want to have Jesus Christ in my family tree. Would you? In all this I see the birth of a new religion by the name of Christianity based on the Hebrew Scriptures but modified to accommodate anybody in the world willing to believe.

                  Exodus 4:22 * Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what Yahweh says: Israel is my firstborn son,

                  John 8:41b (NIV) "We are not illegitimate children," they (i.e. the Jews) protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." (i.e. the Jews know who their Heavenly Father is)

                  Romans 8:29 (NIV) For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be (i.e. oh yeah… keep wishing…) the firstborn among many brothers.

                  So when Jesus Christ speaks evil of one Jew, he does of all of them because in a very special relationship they are all sons of the Almighty. Let me ask you, Old Shep, how many prophets did Jesus Christ sent to the “generation of vipers” that you are talking about? Hey pay attention to what you read! Here we have Jesus Christ saying, “behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:” When did that happen? John the Baptist and Jesus Christ unleashed the most repulsive barrage of insults to the Pharisees every time they were sighted. Can you name any prophet, wise person or scribe that Jesus Christ sent to the Pharisees? Wasn’t it illegal for the Jews to crucify anybody? Why do you single out the Pharisees? They didn’t have any militia or police force reporting to them like the Sadducees and the Herodians had. They were the most helpful bunch of people ever helping Jesus Christ and the Apostles. So why single out the Pharisees? The Jews are Jews regardless of their party affiliation. Was there a special missionary trip set up to convert the Pharisees to Christianity?

                  I see in Saint John's solemn declaration of a switch in family relationship to the Almighty a mouthful of dog puke lies and I am not the one opening my mouth, Jesus Christ and Paul are, and Saint John, too.
                  "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Old Shep...

                    ”Here we know the true character of Jesus Christ because when his planned death was still far into the future he was bragging about being a very “macho” man to take it. He chewed Peter for saying that he shall never be put to death, but when his death was imminent he started to sweat blood. Peter never believed in a dying messiah. Jesus Christ was also bragging about his idea of dying. He said to have authority to die or not to die. In fact, he also bragged that “his father” loved him because he came up with the idea of dying “for the sheep,” but when the time was up, he chickened out and started to ask “his father” to bail him out. He didn’t have to die, anyway. He had all the authority to do what he wanted to do. At least that is what Jesus Christ was bragging about.”


                    Notice how, according to you, Jesus and Paul never simply speak in the N.T.. In every conversation they are always either “whining” or “bragging”. Except for Jesus when he was on the cross he was either, “shrieking”, “shouting”, or “gasping for breath and unable to speak at all” depending on which version of your lie you are telling at the time.
                    In the past I was following the Christian line of an unmatched extremely painful death for Jesus Christ, but now I am getting closer to the truth and I realize that the suffering of Jesus Christ hardly amounted to a slap on the wrist and that he was so incredibly scared of dying! The terrorists crashing against the WTC were much bolder and fearless than Jesus Christ, and both had about the same sacrificial objectives. Just think of it. Jesus Christ was sweating blood at the thought of dying while the terrorists spent the evening parting and drinking to Allah's health even against their religion. SO if they had any fear for what was coming they knew how to cover up real good. Only hypocrates would show to the world sweating blood. It was Jesus Christ who was teaching that if one were to fast, he/she shouldn't show.

                    Actually any Christian following in the footsteps of the master needs to realize that he/she is not alone and that dying can be a horrifying experience for them, too. They cannot possibly expect any consolation from Jesus Christ because in his humanity he was terrified at the thought of dying. He is not capable of being an inspiration or role model to follow. You see, this whole thing is another one of MANY monster size glitches in the NT!
                    "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

                    Comment

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